Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/11/2014 04:11 PM, Roger Stockton via EV wrote: Most likely a mechanical issue with the ganged caps. Given that you water infrequently, you might want to check with your dealer to see if they will supply you with individual caps. The individual caps tend to seal the best, and I believe are available upon request for little or no charge (unless your dealer just can't be bothered to get them for you). I've used both individual caps and ganged caps, and I much prefer the ganged caps. You don't realize how MANY caps there are until you have to unscrew and re-screw them individually... Plus, it is easier to set down / pick up / not drop a set of 3 than three individuals. It seems to me that the ganged nature of the caps shouldn't make the pressure release valves in them any more or less good. (unless they are by different manufacturers from the individual caps) The benefit of individual caps is that you can trade out a single leaky cap without replacing two others at the same time. Jay -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlPp8BAACgkQSWJjSgPNbM8RRwCfRWVIkWnF8qdHcdEwypk0LN8Z 2EIAmgJagKvo5cLxIof3/+122/4MWenU =dZf1 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?
Just type in your search engine: Flip Top Battery Vent Caps No need to remove any battery caps. Just open the top and water. Roland - Original Message - From: Jay Summet via EVmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org To: Roger Stocktonmailto:rstock...@delta-q.com ; Electric Vehicle Discussion Listmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 4:44 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best? -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/11/2014 04:11 PM, Roger Stockton via EV wrote: Most likely a mechanical issue with the ganged caps. Given that you water infrequently, you might want to check with your dealer to see if they will supply you with individual caps. The individual caps tend to seal the best, and I believe are available upon request for little or no charge (unless your dealer just can't be bothered to get them for you). I've used both individual caps and ganged caps, and I much prefer the ganged caps. You don't realize how MANY caps there are until you have to unscrew and re-screw them individually... Plus, it is easier to set down / pick up / not drop a set of 3 than three individuals. It seems to me that the ganged nature of the caps shouldn't make the pressure release valves in them any more or less good. (unless they are by different manufacturers from the individual caps) The benefit of individual caps is that you can trade out a single leaky cap without replacing two others at the same time. Jay -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlPp8BAACgkQSWJjSgPNbM8RRwCfRWVIkWnF8qdHcdEwypk0LN8Z 2EIAmgJagKvo5cLxIof3/+122/4MWenU =dZf1 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140812/7fccc6fc/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?
Another option is to add in an automatic water refill system, similar to this: http://www.aquapro.net/overview_what.html Cheers! On 8/12/14, 10:54 AM, Roland via EV wrote: Just type in your search engine: Flip Top Battery Vent Caps No need to remove any battery caps. Just open the top and water. Roland - Original Message - From: Jay Summet via EVmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org To: Roger Stocktonmailto:rstock...@delta-q.com ; Electric Vehicle Discussion Listmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 4:44 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best? -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/11/2014 04:11 PM, Roger Stockton via EV wrote: Most likely a mechanical issue with the ganged caps. Given that you water infrequently, you might want to check with your dealer to see if they will supply you with individual caps. The individual caps tend to seal the best, and I believe are available upon request for little or no charge (unless your dealer just can't be bothered to get them for you). I've used both individual caps and ganged caps, and I much prefer the ganged caps. You don't realize how MANY caps there are until you have to unscrew and re-screw them individually... Plus, it is easier to set down / pick up / not drop a set of 3 than three individuals. It seems to me that the ganged nature of the caps shouldn't make the pressure release valves in them any more or less good. (unless they are by different manufacturers from the individual caps) The benefit of individual caps is that you can trade out a single leaky cap without replacing two others at the same time. Jay -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlPp8BAACgkQSWJjSgPNbM8RRwCfRWVIkWnF8qdHcdEwypk0LN8Z 2EIAmgJagKvo5cLxIof3/+122/4MWenU =dZf1 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140812/7fccc6fc/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/12/2014 08:57 PM, Jay Summet via EV wrote: On 08/12/2014 02:39 PM, Peter C. Thompson via EV wrote: Another option is to add in an automatic water refill system, similar to this: http://www.aquapro.net/overview_what.html That does look nicebut man...one website I found sold the caps for $10 each! (20 batteries * 3 caps each = $300 + accessories...) Or rather $600 + accessories...pardon my math... Jay -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlPquQEACgkQSWJjSgPNbM8v/ACfeN/p8pOVKm6KSNiOh3hosTF0 4IUAmQEjHI6GZnz73D73sJgKAwT0Ow8g =jHlF -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?
Cor van de Water wrote: I presume that you meant to say unless it's very high in minerals and luckily our water is the softest in the area. I grabbed the water report from the city and saw that our tap water has on average only 71 PPM (Parts per Million) total dissolved solids, of which 53 PPM calcium carbonate 12 PPM sodium The average Ph is 8.4 but varies between 6.5 and 9.4 since the total dissolved solids can vary between almost 0 and 109 PPM. That does mean that there are some impurities added to the cells, but not a large amount and since the amount of tapwater was approx 5% of the total fluid contents of the cell (my estimate) the total impurity level is about 3-4 PPM added total dissolved solids. I am no battery engineer though, so I do not know how bad that is, please enlighten me. Or time will tell... Here is a Trojan whitepaper describing max allowable PPM for various impurities and the detrimental effects of each: http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/WP_EffectOfImpurities_0612.pdf For your over-filled cell(s), I would just remove electrolyte from the cell until the level is restored to normal. If you don't, you are likely to lose electrolyte during charge and use of the vehicle due to leakage out of the cell caps. Reserve this electrolyte and use it to top the cell up to normal level at your regular watering interval until it has all been added back to the cell. If you haven't yet driven or charged, then the liquid at the top of the cell is likely almost all just the water that you added, with relatively little electrolyte mixed in (the lower SG water will 'float' on top of the heavier SG electrolyte that was in the cell to start with). Cheers, Roger. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?
Roger, Thanks for the link to that whitepaper, very instructive and reassuring. It appears that my relatively soft and clean mountain water (Hetch Hetchy) should be no major problem for this one refill. I estimate that the cells are still under 10% of their max allowed impurity for Calcium (refilling ~5% with water containing 53 PPM Calcium). I did notice that the pack seems a little soft (sagging deeper than before the watering) but I think I remember that this is normal - due to the lower SG the resistance of the cells is slightly higher. Before watering the electrolyte is a little too concentrated, giving better performance - but also more plate corrosion. I did indeed remove electrolyte from the top of the overfilled cell with a plastic syringe and deposited it in a bottle, clearly marked as Battery Acid to avoid more dangerous mistakes. Now I just need to wait and drive the car until the level has gone down enough from the recommended 1/8 below the bottom of the vent well and at the next watering interval (which is half year due to my sparingly charging, even though I use the car almost every day) I should be able to put that electrolyte back in and bring the level back (close to) to recommended level. Note that I did drive the car immediately after the overfill event, but since I had fully charged the pack before, that only meant that the level was dropping. I did remove electrolyte before charging again. Due to my removing electrolyte while the cell was not fully charged, I might have removed too little and the level is probably still higher than the other cells. Hopefully the slightly lower SG will cause it to lose more water than the adjacent cells. We'll see. I have added a little dam of baking soda around the fill hole of that cell, so if it spills during the end of charging, it should get neuralized. Other cells are occasionally losing a bit electrolyte also, while the fill level of all is correct and none should have an issue during charging. But that is why I have baking soda scattered over the tops to catch some of the electrolyte leaking. I am not sure why one battery remains sealed and clean, while another one constantly weeps elecrolyte. Probably a mechanical issue that the seal of some fill holes is not seated properly. I am using the ganged caps that allow all 3 holes to be opened/closed together. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Roger Stockton via EV Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 12:05 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best? Cor van de Water wrote: I presume that you meant to say unless it's very high in minerals and luckily our water is the softest in the area. I grabbed the water report from the city and saw that our tap water has on average only 71 PPM (Parts per Million) total dissolved solids, of which 53 PPM calcium carbonate 12 PPM sodium The average Ph is 8.4 but varies between 6.5 and 9.4 since the total dissolved solids can vary between almost 0 and 109 PPM. That does mean that there are some impurities added to the cells, but not a large amount and since the amount of tapwater was approx 5% of the total fluid contents of the cell (my estimate) the total impurity level is about 3-4 PPM added total dissolved solids. I am no battery engineer though, so I do not know how bad that is, please enlighten me. Or time will tell... Here is a Trojan whitepaper describing max allowable PPM for various impurities and the detrimental effects of each: http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/WP_EffectOfImpurities_0612.pdf For your over-filled cell(s), I would just remove electrolyte from the cell until the level is restored to normal. If you don't, you are likely to lose electrolyte during charge and use of the vehicle due to leakage out of the cell caps. Reserve this electrolyte and use it to top the cell up to normal level at your regular watering interval until it has all been added back to the cell. If you haven't yet driven or charged, then the liquid at the top of the cell is likely almost all just the water that you added, with relatively little electrolyte mixed in (the lower SG water will 'float' on top of the heavier SG electrolyte that was in the cell to start with). Cheers, Roger. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?
Cor van de Water wrote: I have added a little dam of baking soda around the fill hole of that cell, so if it spills during the end of charging, it should get neuralized. As I expect you realise, my concern regarding loss of electrolyte due to spillage is that when this happens, you are losing both acid and water instead of (mostly) just water as in normal gassing. Losing both acid and water means that your acid strength will drop when you top up the cell, even if you use the reserved electrolyte. I am not sure why one battery remains sealed and clean, while another one constantly weeps elecrolyte. Probably a mechanical issue that the seal of some fill holes is not seated properly. I am using the ganged caps that allow all 3 holes to be opened/closed together. Most likely a mechanical issue with the ganged caps. Given that you water infrequently, you might want to check with your dealer to see if they will supply you with individual caps. The individual caps tend to seal the best, and I believe are available upon request for little or no charge (unless your dealer just can't be bothered to get them for you). Cheers, Roger. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?
On 11 Aug 2014 at 12:55, Cor van de Water via EV wrote: I am not sure why one battery remains sealed and clean, while another one constantly weeps elecrolyte. ... I am using the ganged caps that allow all 3 holes to be opened/closed together. The second sentence is the answer to the first. In fact you're lucky that ANY cells stay sealed. I have never had good luck with ganged caps. I've heard that US Battery will sell you the caps as retrofits, but I have no idea who you'd contact about purchasing them. Every time I recycle a battery with separate cell caps, I save the caps, and use them on any ganged-cap batteries I happen to get. Roger's answer to your electrolyte problem is miles ahead of my guesses. Big thanks to Roger for his wisdom! David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Flooded lead-acid ooopsie and how to correct best?
OK, confession time and I need the wisdom from the list how to handle this mess I created. Last night I was in a hurry and wanted to quickly water my pack since that was needed. So, I grabbed the first of the 3 gallons that I keep for watering, filled the auto-shutoff jug and started going through my pack. Two things happened, the first made a mess and the second is more serious: Because some battery boxes are between the frame rails, there are cross-members that are above the filling caps of some batteries, making access difficult so they can only be filled with the jug at an angle. Apparently having the jug at an angle can defeat the auto-shutoff because the jug kept on burping slowly (I thought that this was because it was at an angle and not running as fast as with the other better accessible cells) until I suddenly heard an agitated hissing from the baking soda on the top of the battery, being eaten by the overflowing acid from that cell. Oops. I have put extra baking sode around that fill hole after closing it carefully and I have since bought a plastic syringe with which I will remove some fluid from that cell and store it in a plastic bottle until enough water has evaporated from that cell to put the acid back in without overflowing. Anyone have a rule of thumb how much I should remove? until it is at the same level as the other cells filled with the auto-shutoff jug? The second issue is more disastrous and I can't still understand how I got so confused: after I used the 3 gallons to fill all batteries under the bed (the remaining 6 under the hood had to wait till I bought more water) I put the jug back at the shelf where I keep it and found the 3 gallons that I had purchased a couple months ago and stored there, near the auto-shutoff jug. They had been behind some wood for a project, so I had missed them earlier and I realized that I had used *plain tap water* to fill my batteries, because that is what I had used the old gallon jugs for - to store an emergency stash of drinking water... Quick calculation revealed that each cell received about 250ml of tap water, because I could fill almost 3 golf cart batteries with each filling of the 2 liter jug. Of course that is just a few percent of the volume of the cell, but I am wondering if the unwanted minerals in the electrolyte will cause premature damage to the cells (they are now 2 years old, 9,000 miles and I was hoping to go at least 1 or 2 more years with them, getting 15 or 20k miles out...) Do I need to have them emptied and refilled with clean acid or would the dissolved minerals not matter much in the grande scheme of things? I need to weigh my options and decide which route to go next how much cost and benefit each would have. Your wisdom is appreciated! Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info http://www.cvandewater.infom Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140810/5835e118/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
