Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[Dan Baker via EV]

Hey Darryl

Looks like we aren't getting those EV station is Nova Scotia after all:

https://globalnews.ca/news/3945806/utility-board-nova-scotia-power-electric-vehicle/

The utility review board quashed it!



On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 5:45 PM, Dan Baker <vmd...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey Daryl
> Great to meet another EVDL Canadian member!  Thanks for the kudos and yes
> would love to see that Elec-Trak, didn't know any actually made it to
> Canada!  I don't know David or Jeff but I certainly don't think they wanted
> their story to be used against EVs but somehow it is.  I started a FB group
> for EVs in NS and one gentleman stated that he wouldn't trade in his Prius
> for an EV until NS cleaned up their power generation.  Yes they still have
> that time of day program ( my sister has an ETS heat unit and uses it), I
> am considering it but the Volt I just got typically doesn't take that much
> electricity, will have to look at the bill when it coms and see how much
> difference it makes.
> On the Facebook EV group, there is a woman who say she bought a Leaf and
> drove it down from Ontario and used the finished New Brunswick charging
> infrastructure.  So apparently it's possible already!
>
> Cheers
> Dan
>
> On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 2:50 PM, Darryl McMahon via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Dan,
>>
>> I'm 'down the road' in Ontario, but with NS roots (Annapolis Valley and
>> Pictou County).  I've met David Swan a couple of times, and corresponded
>> with Jeff Dahn.  I enjoyed your SnowPig video (and I hope to pick up more
>> front lift motors on Friday to put my Elec-Trak snow team back into action).
>>
>> I think Efficiency NS is likely wearing the same blinders that Ontario's
>> "Conservation First" continues to hold dear.  Focus only on grid
>> electricity use (kWh), and ignore any potential for substituting
>> renewables, going for major efficiency gains, or having any concept that
>> using more electricity could actually be the BETTER option (relative say to
>> using more natural gas, gasoline, diesel or heating oil).  (E.g., I could
>> get an incentive to shift from an electric hot water tank to a natural gas
>> hot water tank, but not to go from a natural gas hot water tank to a solar
>> pre-heat system (no electric power reduction).  The Ontario program is
>> pretty half-hearted anyway; clearly afraid of reducing baseload demand
>> which justifies continued over-investment in their CANDU nuclear fleet.
>>
>> Nova Scotia Power used to have an incentive program for lower price
>> electricity during the overnight period for 'charging' a heat storage
>> unit.  Looks like that program is still in place. (
>> https://www.nspower.ca/en/home/for-my-home/heating-solution
>> s/electric-thermal-storage/default.aspx)  Perhaps NSP could be coaxed
>> into seeing EVs as a similar proposition, and provide TOU pricing for EV
>> households.
>>
>> Speaking of EVs in NS, I just saw the announcement there will finally be
>> a province-wide EV network (12 stations) by summer 2018.  Hmmm, may finally
>> be able to take the trip from Ontario to NS in our 2017 Leaf this year.
>>
>> Wind power continues to grow in NS (and the winds seem to be getting
>> stronger in recent years), and Bay of Fundy tidal remains to be tapped in a
>> significant way.
>>
>> Darryl McMahon
>>
>> On 1/3/2018 10:38 AM, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org wrote:
>>
>>> Message: 10
>>> Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 11:38:30 -0400
>>> From: Dan Baker<vmd...@gmail.com>
>>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<ev@lists.evdl.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <CAMJJmqvaVk_h4t8yM+q8oO93oy1=9wyrghvrw2pf6e9kh6b...@mail.gm
>>> ail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>>
>>> So we have an interesting conundrum in my province (Nova Scotia).  NS
>>> decided to concentrate their efforts on saving energy instead of cleaning
>>> it up first.  This makes sense as the most efficient watt is the watt
>>> that
>>> was never used which I agree with.  They created an organization called
>>> Efficiency Nova Scotia, which helps our sole power company's residential
>>> and business customers save energy with credits for retrofits on
>>> lighting,
>>> industrial equipment, even data centers in which I do audits for.  It has
>>> worked great - the province is using 9% less power since 2008 despite
>>> high
>>> growth in many areas.  The power comp

Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[Michael Ross via EV]

It is fair and well deserved criticism for the utility I am subject to. We
do not have many plug ins here (very little Tesla presence, and no fast
chargers I have seen). Most solar is utility scale -Duke has successfully
squelched residential solar so far. No third party sales are allowed.

They have incredible pull in the ridiculous legislature here. They pay
their CEO $12M a year. Our recently former governor was a longtime employee
of Duke, and is again consulting with them.

A characteristic of Duke is to resist allowing anything on the grid they do
not control fully.  Consequently, they do not want to invest in EV
supporting infrastructure.  I sat in on a panel discussion with the VP in
charge of renewable energy and listened to him paint residential solar
owners as evil doers. The state uitlilties commission panelist sounded very
circumspect and attentive to the utilities; not partial at all to promoting
anything Duke did not want..

In return for their controlling nature I pay little for s kWhr ($0.11),
there is a downward pressure on rates due to residential solar that does
benefit us all, but if you aren't somewhat moneyed you won't get much help
erecting residential solar.

So here in NC is it is not anything about the speed and change of tech
uptake, they are simply resisting it to the best of their ability. There
has been a lot of activism to promote a better grid here for more than a
decade - not much action though.  I know what I am talking about locally.



On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 9:14 AM, Mark Abramowitz 
wrote:

> I'm no fan of the utilities, but that's not a fair criticism. The change
> and uptake of the technology was unexpected and quick, and could not have
> been predicted when the infrastructure was built.
>

-- 
Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(19) 901-2805 Cell and Text
(919) 576-0824  Tablet,
Google Phone and Text





Virus-free.
www.avg.com

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Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[Dan Baker via EV]

Hey Daryl
Great to meet another EVDL Canadian member!  Thanks for the kudos and yes
would love to see that Elec-Trak, didn't know any actually made it to
Canada!  I don't know David or Jeff but I certainly don't think they wanted
their story to be used against EVs but somehow it is.  I started a FB group
for EVs in NS and one gentleman stated that he wouldn't trade in his Prius
for an EV until NS cleaned up their power generation.  Yes they still have
that time of day program ( my sister has an ETS heat unit and uses it), I
am considering it but the Volt I just got typically doesn't take that much
electricity, will have to look at the bill when it coms and see how much
difference it makes.
On the Facebook EV group, there is a woman who say she bought a Leaf and
drove it down from Ontario and used the finished New Brunswick charging
infrastructure.  So apparently it's possible already!

Cheers
Dan

On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 2:50 PM, Darryl McMahon via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

> Hi Dan,
>
> I'm 'down the road' in Ontario, but with NS roots (Annapolis Valley and
> Pictou County).  I've met David Swan a couple of times, and corresponded
> with Jeff Dahn.  I enjoyed your SnowPig video (and I hope to pick up more
> front lift motors on Friday to put my Elec-Trak snow team back into action).
>
> I think Efficiency NS is likely wearing the same blinders that Ontario's
> "Conservation First" continues to hold dear.  Focus only on grid
> electricity use (kWh), and ignore any potential for substituting
> renewables, going for major efficiency gains, or having any concept that
> using more electricity could actually be the BETTER option (relative say to
> using more natural gas, gasoline, diesel or heating oil).  (E.g., I could
> get an incentive to shift from an electric hot water tank to a natural gas
> hot water tank, but not to go from a natural gas hot water tank to a solar
> pre-heat system (no electric power reduction).  The Ontario program is
> pretty half-hearted anyway; clearly afraid of reducing baseload demand
> which justifies continued over-investment in their CANDU nuclear fleet.
>
> Nova Scotia Power used to have an incentive program for lower price
> electricity during the overnight period for 'charging' a heat storage
> unit.  Looks like that program is still in place. (
> https://www.nspower.ca/en/home/for-my-home/heating-solution
> s/electric-thermal-storage/default.aspx)  Perhaps NSP could be coaxed
> into seeing EVs as a similar proposition, and provide TOU pricing for EV
> households.
>
> Speaking of EVs in NS, I just saw the announcement there will finally be a
> province-wide EV network (12 stations) by summer 2018.  Hmmm, may finally
> be able to take the trip from Ontario to NS in our 2017 Leaf this year.
>
> Wind power continues to grow in NS (and the winds seem to be getting
> stronger in recent years), and Bay of Fundy tidal remains to be tapped in a
> significant way.
>
> Darryl McMahon
>
> On 1/3/2018 10:38 AM, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org wrote:
>
>> Message: 10
>> Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 11:38:30 -0400
>> From: Dan Baker<vmd...@gmail.com>
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<ev@lists.evdl.org>
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAMJJmqvaVk_h4t8yM+q8oO93oy1=9wyrghvrw2pf6e9kh6b...@mail.gm
>> ail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>>
>> So we have an interesting conundrum in my province (Nova Scotia).  NS
>> decided to concentrate their efforts on saving energy instead of cleaning
>> it up first.  This makes sense as the most efficient watt is the watt that
>> was never used which I agree with.  They created an organization called
>> Efficiency Nova Scotia, which helps our sole power company's residential
>> and business customers save energy with credits for retrofits on lighting,
>> industrial equipment, even data centers in which I do audits for.  It has
>> worked great - the province is using 9% less power since 2008 despite high
>> growth in many areas.  The power company is happy because it doesn't have
>> to add more infrastructure, natural gas plants, etc.  The problem of
>> course
>> is when we start using electric cars, will that 9% disappear with the
>> additional 10% from EVs?  How will Efficiency NS work if the grid's
>> requirements increase?  Worse is the fact that the energy created here to
>> charge electric vehicles still comes mostly from polluting sources - see
>> article here
>> http://halifaxchronicle.can.newsmemory.com/publink.php?shareid=034660fc3
>> There is a somewhat valid argument that an electric car used in NS isn't
>> that much better than a hyb

Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[Dan Baker via EV]

Hey Peri

I agree there has been some reduction in dirty energy (our province was 90%
coal for power just 10 years ago).  We have a link between Newfoundland
established where they are setting up a major hydro project, but that
environmental concerns of its own.  We have wind and solar as well but NS
power gives very little for feed in rates and has proposed capping on the
size on installations.  The major problem is that the Federal government is
mandating a carbon tax and where NS has been using efficiency NS and has
reduced power, they argue they should be excluded.  It  somewhat makes
sense however our carbon power systems will remain online longer and EV
carbon efficiency & adoption will potentially suffer.

Thanks
Dan


On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 12:07 PM, Peri Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

> First, congrats to NS for a great program. That's significant to use 9%
> less energy for the province than in 2008. The first thought that comes to
> mind for increased energy demand is to use the grid and buy it elsewhere.
> Ultimately, the carbon based plants in NS will need to be replaced but the
> grid will likely need improving, too. Why not do that first? People who
> choose can even by green power using RECs. In the mean time, solar and wind
> will become even more effective than today, giving a better return on
> investment if built-out later.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Dan Baker via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Cc: "Dan Baker" <vmd...@gmail.com>
> Sent: 03-Jan-18 7:38:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid
>
> So we have an interesting conundrum in my province (Nova Scotia).  NS
>> decided to concentrate their efforts on saving energy instead of cleaning
>> it up first.  This makes sense as the most efficient watt is the watt that
>> was never used which I agree with.  They created an organization called
>> Efficiency Nova Scotia, which helps our sole power company's residential
>> and business customers save energy with credits for retrofits on lighting,
>> industrial equipment, even data centers in which I do audits for.  It has
>> worked great - the province is using 9% less power since 2008 despite high
>> growth in many areas.  The power company is happy because it doesn't have
>> to add more infrastructure, natural gas plants, etc.  The problem of
>> course
>> is when we start using electric cars, will that 9% disappear with the
>> additional 10% from EVs?  How will Efficiency NS work if the grid's
>> requirements increase?  Worse is the fact that the energy created here to
>> charge electric vehicles still comes mostly from polluting sources - see
>> article here
>> http://halifaxchronicle.can.newsmemory.com/publink.php?shareid=034660fc3
>> There is a somewhat valid argument that an electric car used in NS isn't
>> that much better than a hybrid or even a gas car which lends some minds
>> down here to think an EV really isn't worth it to buy or even give an
>> incentive for.  I have argued there is a lot more EV value than just C02 -
>> where it is emitted, the lower cost of ownership, our infrastructure and
>> attracting young talent will eventually suffer if we don't keep up with
>> this modernization.
>>
>> Would love to hear your feedback!
>>
>> Cheers
>> Dan
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 6:12 PM, paul dove via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> What city do you live in?
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> > On Jan 2, 2018, at 7:17 AM, Michael Ross via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > " Our City Council had to really squeeze the utility to get capacity
>>> > increased to handle the loads."
>>> >
>>> > You might say that the electric utilities are crashing the grid by not
>>> > recognizing the need to respond to change.  EV use will grow, but not
>>> too
>>> > quickly - in the present when the electric grid should be trying to
>>> keep
>>> > pace it is not, because of intransigence and the influence of
>>> established
>>> > interests.
>>> >
>>> > Short term, stockholders may see better returns, but long term building
>>> now
>>> > would pay off even better. That is not how the market and finance seems
>>> to
>>> > work these days. Instead it is let's bundle some paper and charge some
>>> > fees; not let's rebuild, reinforce and improve infrastructure.
>>> >

Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Tom,

It was during the summer, which certainly exascerbated the situation.  But that 
was planned for.

(And it wasn't EVSE's. At that time, the only EVs out there were the RAV4-EVs)

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 3, 2018, at 12:13 PM, Thos True via EV  wrote:
> 
> Mark,
> 
> Just curious what time of year the outages have been occurring at. If it is
> during the summer, I would expect that the cause has more to do with a
> large use of hvac units, not televisions or evse's. If during winter, then
> it probably has to do with unexpected increase in heating demands. How fast
> is the housing unit growth in the neighborhood? The utility may not be
> increasing the power in ratio to the # of units coming online.
> 
> -Tom
> 
> On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 6:20 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
> wrote:
> 
>> Dubious or not, our local infrastructure couldn't handle the change in
>> technology coupled with numbers of units in each household. Try telling
>> those who suffered frequent outages that they were imagining it.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
 On Jan 2, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Steve Condie via EV 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> This statement, as written, is dubious.  All flat screen TV's except
>> plasma
>>> use less electricity than the older CRT sets did - a 50" LED set uses
>> less
>>> electricity than a 30" CRT.  Plasma is comparable to CRT, but plasma TVs
>>> never really had a lot of market share, even in their brief heyday.
>> What's
>>> more, the total energy usage by TV sets is minimal compared to HVAC,
>>> refrigeration, cooktops, etc.  I think someone's leg was being pulled.
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 11:42 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV <
>> ev@lists.evdl.org>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 You paint too broad a brush.
 
 There have been *serious* problems as new technologies have drawn from
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Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

I'm no fan of the utilities, but that's not a fair criticism. The change and 
uptake of the technology was unexpected and quick, and could not have been 
predicted when the infrastructure was built.



Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 2, 2018, at 5:17 AM, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:
> 
> " Our City Council had to really squeeze the utility to get capacity
> increased to handle the loads."
> 
> You might say that the electric utilities are crashing the grid by not
> recognizing the need to respond to change.  EV use will grow, but not too
> quickly - in the present when the electric grid should be trying to keep
> pace it is not, because of intransigence and the influence of established
> interests.
> 
> Short term, stockholders may see better returns, but long term building now
> would pay off even better. That is not how the market and finance seems to
> work these days. Instead it is let's bundle some paper and charge some
> fees; not let's rebuild, reinforce and improve infrastructure.
> 
> BentMIke
> 
> 
> Virus-free.
> www.avg.com
> 
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> 
> On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 2:42 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
> wrote:
> 
>> You paint too broad a brush.
>> 
>> There have been *serious* problems as new technologies have drawn from the
>> grid and increased useage.
>> 
>> As plasma and other big screen TVs got big, various parts of my city had
>> serious issues with power outages, as the system wasn't designed for those
>> loads. And these weren't areas that had been there for 100 years.
>> Relatively new housing developments had continuing power problems.  Our
>> City Council had to really squeeze the utility to get capacity increased to
>> handle the loads.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jan 1, 2018, at 7:33 PM, Thos True via EV  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Peri & All,
>>> 
>>> I recall addressing this fear about a decade ago when it the fear was
>> being
>>> pushed by mainstream media.
>>> The reality is no different than events that have occurred many times
>> since
>>> the inception of the electrical grid. It is interesting that the
>> utilities
>>> seem to do their best to avoid this conversation.
>>> Some that we might recall were the fears about every house having a
>>> refrigerator and washing machine, then it was the clothes dryer, followed
>>> by microwave ovens & hand held appliances and the hot tub craze, followed
>>> by the air conditioner installations. The air conditioners do have a
>>> noticeable effect on the grid due to a few factors (1. Grid already
>>> stressed due to over heating. 2. Large numbers in a region using the
>> device
>>> at the same time (large, continuous inrush currents). 3. Extended periods
>>> of load for each device (in excess of 4 hours each).)
>>> The previous example share the relatively short, staggered inrush current
>>> events, followed by lower power demands, which are barely noticeable,
>>> according to the utilities themselves, since most L2 units use the same
>>> amount of power per use as the average clothes dryer.
>>> 
>>> Tom True
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 7:28 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 I think this article raises a good question, though I don't really think
 it answers it. Currently, yes, the grid isn't significantly impacted.
>> But
 what about if we had 100% EVs. What about local and long haul trucking?
 What about other ICE powered equipment, e.g. earth movers, etc.? What
>> about
 generation capacity as well as distribution capacity?
 
 Personally, our EV boosted our electricity consumption by about 10%. I
 don't know how that number compares in general as, even with our EV, our
 electricity usage is below the national average. Even so, that's only
 accounting for residential EVs. Commercial and industrial electricity
>> usage
 is much higher than residential. Is that enough to coincidentally
>> assume a
 10% figure for non residential EV charging? If this pans out to be
 reasonably true, it would seem that EVs will not, long term, cause a
 significant drain on our generation capacity, if any at all (considering
 time of use).
 
 For distribution, yes, we clearly can't have everyone charging their EVs
 at 5:30pm.  But, as we move more and more to renewables, we'll need grid
 storage anyway and, using the "10% rule", EVs won't be a significant
 factor. The significant factor will be how to get Nevada solar to the
 cloudy Pacific NW or to get Texas wind to sticky South Carolina. And
>> how to
 store several days worth to even out nature's effects.
 
 Does anyone have real numbers of the effects of 100% EVs on generation
>> and
 

Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Mark,
The argument does not pass the smell test.
To me, it sounds like "we have not had this problem before (outages) and thus 
it must be those new plasma TVs to blame."
It is easy to find a blame instead of being accountable and confess that the 
investment in infrastructure has not kept
pace with the growt in nr of housing units, increase in electricity use in 
every house, including additional AirCo and other
heavy users that are not new technology and thus the blame would immediately 
come back to the energy co,
so it is tempting to find something new so you can blame that and say you were 
surprised by it, even though it did not
cause the growth in consumption and your own decision not to invest caused the 
shortages, not the new tech.

But that is just my impression, I did not study the causes for your city's 
squeeze, but blaming a low power appliance
that uses about the same as the previous tech of the same appliance sounds 
fishy.
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mark Abramowitz via EV
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2018 6:21 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Mark Abramowitz
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

Dubious or not, our local infrastructure couldn't handle the change in 
technology coupled with numbers of units in each household. Try telling those 
who suffered frequent outages that they were imagining it.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 2, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Steve Condie via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> 
> This statement, as written, is dubious.  All flat screen TV's except 
> plasma use less electricity than the older CRT sets did - a 50" LED 
> set uses less electricity than a 30" CRT.  Plasma is comparable to 
> CRT, but plasma TVs never really had a lot of market share, even in 
> their brief heyday. What's more, the total energy usage by TV sets is 
> minimal compared to HVAC, refrigeration, cooktops, etc.  I think someone's 
> leg was being pulled.
> 
> On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 11:42 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
> <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> wrote:
> 
>> You paint too broad a brush.
>> 
>> There have been *serious* problems as new technologies have drawn 
>> from the grid and increased useage.
>> 
>> As plasma and other big screen TVs got big, various parts of my city 
>> had serious issues with power outages, as the system wasn't designed 
>> for those loads. And these weren't areas that had been there for 100 years.
>> Relatively new housing developments had continuing power problems.  
>> Our City Council had to really squeeze the utility to get capacity 
>> increased to handle the loads.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jan 1, 2018, at 7:33 PM, Thos True via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Peri & All,
>>> 
>>> I recall addressing this fear about a decade ago when it the fear 
>>> was
>> being
>>> pushed by mainstream media.
>>> The reality is no different than events that have occurred many 
>>> times
>> since
>>> the inception of the electrical grid. It is interesting that the
>> utilities
>>> seem to do their best to avoid this conversation.
>>> Some that we might recall were the fears about every house having a 
>>> refrigerator and washing machine, then it was the clothes dryer, 
>>> followed by microwave ovens & hand held appliances and the hot tub 
>>> craze, followed by the air conditioner installations. The air 
>>> conditioners do have a noticeable effect on the grid due to a few 
>>> factors (1. Grid already stressed due to over heating. 2. Large 
>>> numbers in a region using the
>> device
>>> at the same time (large, continuous inrush currents). 3. Extended 
>>> periods of load for each device (in excess of 4 hours each).) The 
>>> previous example share the relatively short, staggered inrush 
>>> current events, followed by lower power demands, which are barely 
>>> noticeable, according to the utilities themselves, since most L2 
>>> units use the same amount of power per use as the average clothes dryer.
>>> 
>>> Tom True
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 7:28 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
>>> <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I think this article raises a good question, though I don't really 
>>>> think it answers it. Currently, yes, the grid isn't significantly impacted.
>> But
>>>> what about if we had 100% EVs. What about local and long haul trucking?
>>>> What about other ICE powered equipment, e.g. eart

Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[Thos True via EV]

Mark,

Just curious what time of year the outages have been occurring at. If it is
during the summer, I would expect that the cause has more to do with a
large use of hvac units, not televisions or evse's. If during winter, then
it probably has to do with unexpected increase in heating demands. How fast
is the housing unit growth in the neighborhood? The utility may not be
increasing the power in ratio to the # of units coming online.

-Tom

On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 6:20 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:

> Dubious or not, our local infrastructure couldn't handle the change in
> technology coupled with numbers of units in each household. Try telling
> those who suffered frequent outages that they were imagining it.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jan 2, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Steve Condie via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > This statement, as written, is dubious.  All flat screen TV's except
> plasma
> > use less electricity than the older CRT sets did - a 50" LED set uses
> less
> > electricity than a 30" CRT.  Plasma is comparable to CRT, but plasma TVs
> > never really had a lot of market share, even in their brief heyday.
> What's
> > more, the total energy usage by TV sets is minimal compared to HVAC,
> > refrigeration, cooktops, etc.  I think someone's leg was being pulled.
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 11:42 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> You paint too broad a brush.
> >>
> >> There have been *serious* problems as new technologies have drawn from
> the
> >> grid and increased useage.
> >>
> >> As plasma and other big screen TVs got big, various parts of my city had
> >> serious issues with power outages, as the system wasn't designed for
> those
> >> loads. And these weren't areas that had been there for 100 years.
> >> Relatively new housing developments had continuing power problems.  Our
> >> City Council had to really squeeze the utility to get capacity
> increased to
> >> handle the loads.
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>> On Jan 1, 2018, at 7:33 PM, Thos True via EV 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Peri & All,
> >>>
> >>> I recall addressing this fear about a decade ago when it the fear was
> >> being
> >>> pushed by mainstream media.
> >>> The reality is no different than events that have occurred many times
> >> since
> >>> the inception of the electrical grid. It is interesting that the
> >> utilities
> >>> seem to do their best to avoid this conversation.
> >>> Some that we might recall were the fears about every house having a
> >>> refrigerator and washing machine, then it was the clothes dryer,
> followed
> >>> by microwave ovens & hand held appliances and the hot tub craze,
> followed
> >>> by the air conditioner installations. The air conditioners do have a
> >>> noticeable effect on the grid due to a few factors (1. Grid already
> >>> stressed due to over heating. 2. Large numbers in a region using the
> >> device
> >>> at the same time (large, continuous inrush currents). 3. Extended
> periods
> >>> of load for each device (in excess of 4 hours each).)
> >>> The previous example share the relatively short, staggered inrush
> current
> >>> events, followed by lower power demands, which are barely noticeable,
> >>> according to the utilities themselves, since most L2 units use the same
> >>> amount of power per use as the average clothes dryer.
> >>>
> >>> Tom True
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 7:28 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
>  I think this article raises a good question, though I don't really
> think
>  it answers it. Currently, yes, the grid isn't significantly impacted.
> >> But
>  what about if we had 100% EVs. What about local and long haul
> trucking?
>  What about other ICE powered equipment, e.g. earth movers, etc.? What
> >> about
>  generation capacity as well as distribution capacity?
> 
>  Personally, our EV boosted our electricity consumption by about 10%. I
>  don't know how that number compares in general as, even with our EV,
> our
>  electricity usage is below the national average. Even so, that's only
>  accounting for residential EVs. Commercial and industrial electricity
> >> usage
>  is much higher than residential. Is that enough to coincidentally
> >> assume a
>  10% figure for non residential EV charging? If this pans out to be
>  reasonably true, it would seem that EVs will not, long term, cause a
>  significant drain on our generation capacity, if any at all
> (considering
>  time of use).
> 
>  For distribution, yes, we clearly can't have everyone charging their
> EVs
>  at 5:30pm.  But, as we move more and more to renewables, we'll need
> grid
>  storage anyway and, using the "10% rule", EVs won't be a significant
>  factor. The significant factor will be how to get Nevada solar to the
>  cloudy Pacific NW or to get Texas wind to sticky 

Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[Darryl McMahon via EV]

Hi Dan,

I'm 'down the road' in Ontario, but with NS roots (Annapolis Valley and 
Pictou County).  I've met David Swan a couple of times, and corresponded 
with Jeff Dahn.  I enjoyed your SnowPig video (and I hope to pick up 
more front lift motors on Friday to put my Elec-Trak snow team back into 
action).


I think Efficiency NS is likely wearing the same blinders that Ontario's 
"Conservation First" continues to hold dear.  Focus only on grid 
electricity use (kWh), and ignore any potential for substituting 
renewables, going for major efficiency gains, or having any concept that 
using more electricity could actually be the BETTER option (relative say 
to using more natural gas, gasoline, diesel or heating oil).  (E.g., I 
could get an incentive to shift from an electric hot water tank to a 
natural gas hot water tank, but not to go from a natural gas hot water 
tank to a solar pre-heat system (no electric power reduction).  The 
Ontario program is pretty half-hearted anyway; clearly afraid of 
reducing baseload demand which justifies continued over-investment in 
their CANDU nuclear fleet.


Nova Scotia Power used to have an incentive program for lower price 
electricity during the overnight period for 'charging' a heat storage 
unit.  Looks like that program is still in place. 
(https://www.nspower.ca/en/home/for-my-home/heating-solutions/electric-thermal-storage/default.aspx) 
 Perhaps NSP could be coaxed into seeing EVs as a similar proposition, 
and provide TOU pricing for EV households.


Speaking of EVs in NS, I just saw the announcement there will finally be 
a province-wide EV network (12 stations) by summer 2018.  Hmmm, may 
finally be able to take the trip from Ontario to NS in our 2017 Leaf 
this year.


Wind power continues to grow in NS (and the winds seem to be getting 
stronger in recent years), and Bay of Fundy tidal remains to be tapped 
in a significant way.


Darryl McMahon

On 1/3/2018 10:38 AM, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org wrote:

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 11:38:30 -0400
From: Dan Baker<vmd...@gmail.com>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid
Message-ID:
<CAMJJmqvaVk_h4t8yM+q8oO93oy1=9wyrghvrw2pf6e9kh6b...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

So we have an interesting conundrum in my province (Nova Scotia).  NS
decided to concentrate their efforts on saving energy instead of cleaning
it up first.  This makes sense as the most efficient watt is the watt that
was never used which I agree with.  They created an organization called
Efficiency Nova Scotia, which helps our sole power company's residential
and business customers save energy with credits for retrofits on lighting,
industrial equipment, even data centers in which I do audits for.  It has
worked great - the province is using 9% less power since 2008 despite high
growth in many areas.  The power company is happy because it doesn't have
to add more infrastructure, natural gas plants, etc.  The problem of course
is when we start using electric cars, will that 9% disappear with the
additional 10% from EVs?  How will Efficiency NS work if the grid's
requirements increase?  Worse is the fact that the energy created here to
charge electric vehicles still comes mostly from polluting sources - see
article here
http://halifaxchronicle.can.newsmemory.com/publink.php?shareid=034660fc3
There is a somewhat valid argument that an electric car used in NS isn't
that much better than a hybrid or even a gas car which lends some minds
down here to think an EV really isn't worth it to buy or even give an
incentive for.  I have argued there is a lot more EV value than just C02 -
where it is emitted, the lower cost of ownership, our infrastructure and
attracting young talent will eventually suffer if we don't keep up with
this modernization.

Would love to hear your feedback!

Cheers
Dan


--
Darryl McMahon
Freelance Project Manager (sustainable systems)
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Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Dubious or not, our local infrastructure couldn't handle the change in 
technology coupled with numbers of units in each household. Try telling those 
who suffered frequent outages that they were imagining it.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 2, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Steve Condie via EV  wrote:
> 
> This statement, as written, is dubious.  All flat screen TV's except plasma
> use less electricity than the older CRT sets did - a 50" LED set uses less
> electricity than a 30" CRT.  Plasma is comparable to CRT, but plasma TVs
> never really had a lot of market share, even in their brief heyday. What's
> more, the total energy usage by TV sets is minimal compared to HVAC,
> refrigeration, cooktops, etc.  I think someone's leg was being pulled.
> 
> On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 11:42 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
> wrote:
> 
>> You paint too broad a brush.
>> 
>> There have been *serious* problems as new technologies have drawn from the
>> grid and increased useage.
>> 
>> As plasma and other big screen TVs got big, various parts of my city had
>> serious issues with power outages, as the system wasn't designed for those
>> loads. And these weren't areas that had been there for 100 years.
>> Relatively new housing developments had continuing power problems.  Our
>> City Council had to really squeeze the utility to get capacity increased to
>> handle the loads.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jan 1, 2018, at 7:33 PM, Thos True via EV  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Peri & All,
>>> 
>>> I recall addressing this fear about a decade ago when it the fear was
>> being
>>> pushed by mainstream media.
>>> The reality is no different than events that have occurred many times
>> since
>>> the inception of the electrical grid. It is interesting that the
>> utilities
>>> seem to do their best to avoid this conversation.
>>> Some that we might recall were the fears about every house having a
>>> refrigerator and washing machine, then it was the clothes dryer, followed
>>> by microwave ovens & hand held appliances and the hot tub craze, followed
>>> by the air conditioner installations. The air conditioners do have a
>>> noticeable effect on the grid due to a few factors (1. Grid already
>>> stressed due to over heating. 2. Large numbers in a region using the
>> device
>>> at the same time (large, continuous inrush currents). 3. Extended periods
>>> of load for each device (in excess of 4 hours each).)
>>> The previous example share the relatively short, staggered inrush current
>>> events, followed by lower power demands, which are barely noticeable,
>>> according to the utilities themselves, since most L2 units use the same
>>> amount of power per use as the average clothes dryer.
>>> 
>>> Tom True
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 7:28 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 I think this article raises a good question, though I don't really think
 it answers it. Currently, yes, the grid isn't significantly impacted.
>> But
 what about if we had 100% EVs. What about local and long haul trucking?
 What about other ICE powered equipment, e.g. earth movers, etc.? What
>> about
 generation capacity as well as distribution capacity?
 
 Personally, our EV boosted our electricity consumption by about 10%. I
 don't know how that number compares in general as, even with our EV, our
 electricity usage is below the national average. Even so, that's only
 accounting for residential EVs. Commercial and industrial electricity
>> usage
 is much higher than residential. Is that enough to coincidentally
>> assume a
 10% figure for non residential EV charging? If this pans out to be
 reasonably true, it would seem that EVs will not, long term, cause a
 significant drain on our generation capacity, if any at all (considering
 time of use).
 
 For distribution, yes, we clearly can't have everyone charging their EVs
 at 5:30pm.  But, as we move more and more to renewables, we'll need grid
 storage anyway and, using the "10% rule", EVs won't be a significant
 factor. The significant factor will be how to get Nevada solar to the
 cloudy Pacific NW or to get Texas wind to sticky South Carolina. And
>> how to
 store several days worth to even out nature's effects.
 
 Does anyone have real numbers of the effects of 100% EVs on generation
>> and
 distribution?
 
 Peri
 
 https://www.nrdc.org/experts/noah-garcia/good-news-evs-are-n
 ot-crashing-grid
 
 -- Original Message --
 From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Cc: "brucedp5" 
 Sent: 30-Dec-17 10:08:53 PM
 Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20171226
 
 
> 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.
> com/EVLN-Tesla-3-EV-handling-snow-covered-rutted-off-road-
> 

Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

I'm in SCE territory, too.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 2, 2018, at 8:52 AM, jim--- via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> Mark Abramowitz said (in part):
>> There have been *serious* problems as new technologies have drawn from the 
>> grid and increased useage.
> 
>> As plasma and other big screen TVs got big, various parts of my city had 
>> serious issues with power outages, as the system wasn't designed for those 
>> loads.
> 
> Where are you located?  Yes loads have increased, but certainly not causing 
> capacity problems that are not being met by my (not so) local utility - 
> Southern California Edison.
> 
> 
> 73
> -
> Jim Walls - K6CCC
> j...@k6ccc.org
> 
> 
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: 
> 
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> 
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Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[Peri Hartman via EV]

First, congrats to NS for a great program. That's significant to use 9% 
less energy for the province than in 2008. The first thought that comes 
to mind for increased energy demand is to use the grid and buy it 
elsewhere. Ultimately, the carbon based plants in NS will need to be 
replaced but the grid will likely need improving, too. Why not do that 
first? People who choose can even by green power using RECs. In the mean 
time, solar and wind will become even more effective than today, giving 
a better return on investment if built-out later.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Dan Baker via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Cc: "Dan Baker" <vmd...@gmail.com>
Sent: 03-Jan-18 7:38:30 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid


So we have an interesting conundrum in my province (Nova Scotia).  NS
decided to concentrate their efforts on saving energy instead of 
cleaning
it up first.  This makes sense as the most efficient watt is the watt 
that

was never used which I agree with.  They created an organization called
Efficiency Nova Scotia, which helps our sole power company's 
residential
and business customers save energy with credits for retrofits on 
lighting,
industrial equipment, even data centers in which I do audits for.  It 
has
worked great - the province is using 9% less power since 2008 despite 
high
growth in many areas.  The power company is happy because it doesn't 
have
to add more infrastructure, natural gas plants, etc.  The problem of 
course

is when we start using electric cars, will that 9% disappear with the
additional 10% from EVs?  How will Efficiency NS work if the grid's
requirements increase?  Worse is the fact that the energy created here 
to
charge electric vehicles still comes mostly from polluting sources - 
see

article here
http://halifaxchronicle.can.newsmemory.com/publink.php?shareid=034660fc3
There is a somewhat valid argument that an electric car used in NS 
isn't

that much better than a hybrid or even a gas car which lends some minds
down here to think an EV really isn't worth it to buy or even give an
incentive for.  I have argued there is a lot more EV value than just 
C02 -
where it is emitted, the lower cost of ownership, our infrastructure 
and

attracting young talent will eventually suffer if we don't keep up with
this modernization.

Would love to hear your feedback!

Cheers
Dan

On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 6:12 PM, paul dove via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
wrote:



What city do you live in?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 2, 2018, at 7:17 AM, Michael Ross via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:
>
> " Our City Council had to really squeeze the utility to get capacity
> increased to handle the loads."
>
> You might say that the electric utilities are crashing the grid by 
not
> recognizing the need to respond to change.  EV use will grow, but 
not too
> quickly - in the present when the electric grid should be trying to 
keep
> pace it is not, because of intransigence and the influence of 
established

> interests.
>
> Short term, stockholders may see better returns, but long term 
building

now
> would pay off even better. That is not how the market and finance 
seems

to
> work these days. Instead it is let's bundle some paper and charge 
some

> fees; not let's rebuild, reinforce and improve infrastructure.
>
> BentMIke
>
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email;
utm_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail>
> Virus-free.
> www.avg.com
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email;
utm_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail>
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 2:42 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org>
> wrote:
>
>> You paint too broad a brush.
>>
>> There have been *serious* problems as new technologies have drawn 
from

the
>> grid and increased useage.
>>
>> As plasma and other big screen TVs got big, various parts of my 
city had
>> serious issues with power outages, as the system wasn't designed 
for

those
>> loads. And these weren't areas that had been there for 100 years.
>> Relatively new housing developments had continuing power problems.  
Our

>> City Council had to really squeeze the utility to get capacity
increased to
>> handle the loads.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Jan 1, 2018, at 7:33 PM, Thos True via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:
>>>
>>> Peri & All,
>>>
>>> I recall addressing this fear about a decade ago when it the fear 
was

>> being
>>> pushed by mainstream media.
>>> The reality is no different than events that have occurred many 
times

>

Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[Dan Baker via EV]

So we have an interesting conundrum in my province (Nova Scotia).  NS
decided to concentrate their efforts on saving energy instead of cleaning
it up first.  This makes sense as the most efficient watt is the watt that
was never used which I agree with.  They created an organization called
Efficiency Nova Scotia, which helps our sole power company's residential
and business customers save energy with credits for retrofits on lighting,
industrial equipment, even data centers in which I do audits for.  It has
worked great - the province is using 9% less power since 2008 despite high
growth in many areas.  The power company is happy because it doesn't have
to add more infrastructure, natural gas plants, etc.  The problem of course
is when we start using electric cars, will that 9% disappear with the
additional 10% from EVs?  How will Efficiency NS work if the grid's
requirements increase?  Worse is the fact that the energy created here to
charge electric vehicles still comes mostly from polluting sources - see
article here
http://halifaxchronicle.can.newsmemory.com/publink.php?shareid=034660fc3
There is a somewhat valid argument that an electric car used in NS isn't
that much better than a hybrid or even a gas car which lends some minds
down here to think an EV really isn't worth it to buy or even give an
incentive for.  I have argued there is a lot more EV value than just C02 -
where it is emitted, the lower cost of ownership, our infrastructure and
attracting young talent will eventually suffer if we don't keep up with
this modernization.

Would love to hear your feedback!

Cheers
Dan

On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 6:12 PM, paul dove via EV  wrote:

> What city do you live in?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jan 2, 2018, at 7:17 AM, Michael Ross via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > " Our City Council had to really squeeze the utility to get capacity
> > increased to handle the loads."
> >
> > You might say that the electric utilities are crashing the grid by not
> > recognizing the need to respond to change.  EV use will grow, but not too
> > quickly - in the present when the electric grid should be trying to keep
> > pace it is not, because of intransigence and the influence of established
> > interests.
> >
> > Short term, stockholders may see better returns, but long term building
> now
> > would pay off even better. That is not how the market and finance seems
> to
> > work these days. Instead it is let's bundle some paper and charge some
> > fees; not let's rebuild, reinforce and improve infrastructure.
> >
> > BentMIke
> >
> >  utm_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail>
> > Virus-free.
> > www.avg.com
> >  utm_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail>
> > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 2:42 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> You paint too broad a brush.
> >>
> >> There have been *serious* problems as new technologies have drawn from
> the
> >> grid and increased useage.
> >>
> >> As plasma and other big screen TVs got big, various parts of my city had
> >> serious issues with power outages, as the system wasn't designed for
> those
> >> loads. And these weren't areas that had been there for 100 years.
> >> Relatively new housing developments had continuing power problems.  Our
> >> City Council had to really squeeze the utility to get capacity
> increased to
> >> handle the loads.
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>> On Jan 1, 2018, at 7:33 PM, Thos True via EV 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Peri & All,
> >>>
> >>> I recall addressing this fear about a decade ago when it the fear was
> >> being
> >>> pushed by mainstream media.
> >>> The reality is no different than events that have occurred many times
> >> since
> >>> the inception of the electrical grid. It is interesting that the
> >> utilities
> >>> seem to do their best to avoid this conversation.
> >>> Some that we might recall were the fears about every house having a
> >>> refrigerator and washing machine, then it was the clothes dryer,
> followed
> >>> by microwave ovens & hand held appliances and the hot tub craze,
> followed
> >>> by the air conditioner installations. The air conditioners do have a
> >>> noticeable effect on the grid due to a few factors (1. Grid already
> >>> stressed due to over heating. 2. Large numbers in a region using the
> >> device
> >>> at the same time (large, continuous inrush currents). 3. Extended
> periods
> >>> of load for each device (in excess of 4 hours each).)
> >>> The previous example share the relatively short, staggered inrush
> current
> >>> events, followed by lower power demands, which are barely noticeable,
> >>> according to the utilities themselves, since most L2 units use the same
> >>> amount of power per use as the average clothes dryer.
> >>>
> >>> Tom True
> 

Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[paul dove via EV]

What city do you live in?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 2, 2018, at 7:17 AM, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:
> 
> " Our City Council had to really squeeze the utility to get capacity
> increased to handle the loads."
> 
> You might say that the electric utilities are crashing the grid by not
> recognizing the need to respond to change.  EV use will grow, but not too
> quickly - in the present when the electric grid should be trying to keep
> pace it is not, because of intransigence and the influence of established
> interests.
> 
> Short term, stockholders may see better returns, but long term building now
> would pay off even better. That is not how the market and finance seems to
> work these days. Instead it is let's bundle some paper and charge some
> fees; not let's rebuild, reinforce and improve infrastructure.
> 
> BentMIke
> 
> 
> Virus-free.
> www.avg.com
> 
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> 
> On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 2:42 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
> wrote:
> 
>> You paint too broad a brush.
>> 
>> There have been *serious* problems as new technologies have drawn from the
>> grid and increased useage.
>> 
>> As plasma and other big screen TVs got big, various parts of my city had
>> serious issues with power outages, as the system wasn't designed for those
>> loads. And these weren't areas that had been there for 100 years.
>> Relatively new housing developments had continuing power problems.  Our
>> City Council had to really squeeze the utility to get capacity increased to
>> handle the loads.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jan 1, 2018, at 7:33 PM, Thos True via EV  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Peri & All,
>>> 
>>> I recall addressing this fear about a decade ago when it the fear was
>> being
>>> pushed by mainstream media.
>>> The reality is no different than events that have occurred many times
>> since
>>> the inception of the electrical grid. It is interesting that the
>> utilities
>>> seem to do their best to avoid this conversation.
>>> Some that we might recall were the fears about every house having a
>>> refrigerator and washing machine, then it was the clothes dryer, followed
>>> by microwave ovens & hand held appliances and the hot tub craze, followed
>>> by the air conditioner installations. The air conditioners do have a
>>> noticeable effect on the grid due to a few factors (1. Grid already
>>> stressed due to over heating. 2. Large numbers in a region using the
>> device
>>> at the same time (large, continuous inrush currents). 3. Extended periods
>>> of load for each device (in excess of 4 hours each).)
>>> The previous example share the relatively short, staggered inrush current
>>> events, followed by lower power demands, which are barely noticeable,
>>> according to the utilities themselves, since most L2 units use the same
>>> amount of power per use as the average clothes dryer.
>>> 
>>> Tom True
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 7:28 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 I think this article raises a good question, though I don't really think
 it answers it. Currently, yes, the grid isn't significantly impacted.
>> But
 what about if we had 100% EVs. What about local and long haul trucking?
 What about other ICE powered equipment, e.g. earth movers, etc.? What
>> about
 generation capacity as well as distribution capacity?
 
 Personally, our EV boosted our electricity consumption by about 10%. I
 don't know how that number compares in general as, even with our EV, our
 electricity usage is below the national average. Even so, that's only
 accounting for residential EVs. Commercial and industrial electricity
>> usage
 is much higher than residential. Is that enough to coincidentally
>> assume a
 10% figure for non residential EV charging? If this pans out to be
 reasonably true, it would seem that EVs will not, long term, cause a
 significant drain on our generation capacity, if any at all (considering
 time of use).
 
 For distribution, yes, we clearly can't have everyone charging their EVs
 at 5:30pm.  But, as we move more and more to renewables, we'll need grid
 storage anyway and, using the "10% rule", EVs won't be a significant
 factor. The significant factor will be how to get Nevada solar to the
 cloudy Pacific NW or to get Texas wind to sticky South Carolina. And
>> how to
 store several days worth to even out nature's effects.
 
 Does anyone have real numbers of the effects of 100% EVs on generation
>> and
 distribution?
 
 Peri
 
 https://www.nrdc.org/experts/noah-garcia/good-news-evs-are-n
 ot-crashing-grid
 
 -- Original Message --
 From: 

Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[Lee Hart via EV]

Steve Condie via EV wrote:

This statement, as written, is dubious.  All flat screen TV's except plasma
use less electricity than the older CRT sets did - a 50" LED set uses less
electricity than a 30" CRT.


It's difficult to generalize like that. An ancient all-tube TV used 
around 200-300 watts. Transistorized TVs with CRTs used 50-100 watts. 
Modern TVs vary all over the place, from a few tens of watts, to as much 
(or more!) than the old tube TVs.


Screen size is also a major factor in power consumption. Just looking at 
the ones I have, the 5" portable uses 8 watts, the 19" uses 75w, and the 
40" uses 120 watts.



What's more, the total energy usage by TV sets is minimal compared to HVAC,
refrigeration, cooktops, etc.


Here too, there are huge differences between households. Many people 
leave multiple TVs on all the time. But their refrigerator only runs a 
few hours a day, and the stove may only get used a few times a week. 
HVAC electric usage also varies drastically with the seasons, and what 
fuel is being used to provide the heat (electric, gas, or oil).


--
Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[Steve Condie via EV]

This statement, as written, is dubious.  All flat screen TV's except plasma
use less electricity than the older CRT sets did - a 50" LED set uses less
electricity than a 30" CRT.  Plasma is comparable to CRT, but plasma TVs
never really had a lot of market share, even in their brief heyday. What's
more, the total energy usage by TV sets is minimal compared to HVAC,
refrigeration, cooktops, etc.  I think someone's leg was being pulled.

On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 11:42 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:

> You paint too broad a brush.
>
> There have been *serious* problems as new technologies have drawn from the
> grid and increased useage.
>
> As plasma and other big screen TVs got big, various parts of my city had
> serious issues with power outages, as the system wasn't designed for those
> loads. And these weren't areas that had been there for 100 years.
> Relatively new housing developments had continuing power problems.  Our
> City Council had to really squeeze the utility to get capacity increased to
> handle the loads.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jan 1, 2018, at 7:33 PM, Thos True via EV  wrote:
> >
> > Peri & All,
> >
> > I recall addressing this fear about a decade ago when it the fear was
> being
> > pushed by mainstream media.
> > The reality is no different than events that have occurred many times
> since
> > the inception of the electrical grid. It is interesting that the
> utilities
> > seem to do their best to avoid this conversation.
> > Some that we might recall were the fears about every house having a
> > refrigerator and washing machine, then it was the clothes dryer, followed
> > by microwave ovens & hand held appliances and the hot tub craze, followed
> > by the air conditioner installations. The air conditioners do have a
> > noticeable effect on the grid due to a few factors (1. Grid already
> > stressed due to over heating. 2. Large numbers in a region using the
> device
> > at the same time (large, continuous inrush currents). 3. Extended periods
> > of load for each device (in excess of 4 hours each).)
> > The previous example share the relatively short, staggered inrush current
> > events, followed by lower power demands, which are barely noticeable,
> > according to the utilities themselves, since most L2 units use the same
> > amount of power per use as the average clothes dryer.
> >
> > Tom True
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 7:28 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I think this article raises a good question, though I don't really think
> >> it answers it. Currently, yes, the grid isn't significantly impacted.
> But
> >> what about if we had 100% EVs. What about local and long haul trucking?
> >> What about other ICE powered equipment, e.g. earth movers, etc.? What
> about
> >> generation capacity as well as distribution capacity?
> >>
> >> Personally, our EV boosted our electricity consumption by about 10%. I
> >> don't know how that number compares in general as, even with our EV, our
> >> electricity usage is below the national average. Even so, that's only
> >> accounting for residential EVs. Commercial and industrial electricity
> usage
> >> is much higher than residential. Is that enough to coincidentally
> assume a
> >> 10% figure for non residential EV charging? If this pans out to be
> >> reasonably true, it would seem that EVs will not, long term, cause a
> >> significant drain on our generation capacity, if any at all (considering
> >> time of use).
> >>
> >> For distribution, yes, we clearly can't have everyone charging their EVs
> >> at 5:30pm.  But, as we move more and more to renewables, we'll need grid
> >> storage anyway and, using the "10% rule", EVs won't be a significant
> >> factor. The significant factor will be how to get Nevada solar to the
> >> cloudy Pacific NW or to get Texas wind to sticky South Carolina. And
> how to
> >> store several days worth to even out nature's effects.
> >>
> >> Does anyone have real numbers of the effects of 100% EVs on generation
> and
> >> distribution?
> >>
> >> Peri
> >>
> >> https://www.nrdc.org/experts/noah-garcia/good-news-evs-are-n
> >> ot-crashing-grid
> >>
> >> -- Original Message --
> >> From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
> >> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> >> Cc: "brucedp5" 
> >> Sent: 30-Dec-17 10:08:53 PM
> >> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20171226
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.
> >>> com/EVLN-Tesla-3-EV-handling-snow-covered-rutted-off-road-
> >>> track-on-standard-tires-v-tp4689040.html
> >>> EVLN: Tesla-3 EV handling snow-covered rutted off-road track on
> standard
> >>> tires (v)
> >>> The current versions of Tesla's flagship vehicles control power to all
> >>> four
> >>> wheels through dual independently operated electric motors, providing
> >>> unparalleled traction in even the worst of winter conditions. Short of
> >>> driving your 

Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 2 Jan 2018 at 9:01, Thos True via EV wrote:

> Doing this without drawing undue attention is generally in their best
> interest, as most people typically don't pay any attention until it
> disrupts their plans with an unexpected failure. 
> 

Except when you have an anti-EV agenda, and want to blame them for all the 
customers' problems.

I'm not saying the power companies do.  How foolish would it be to oppose 
something that's going to increase their sales?  They certainly weren't 
oppsing them back in the 1970s, as far as I can tell.  

But that was before the big wave of consolidations and leveraged buyouts in 
the "energy business."  Today it might be different.  If the utilities are 
so short-sighted that they see only the short-term infrastructure expense 
and not the long-term revenue increase, I can easily imagine that they might 
oppose EVs.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 2 Jan 2018 at 8:17, Michael Ross via EV wrote:

> You might say that the electric utilities are crashing the grid by not
> recognizing the need to respond to change.

We saw how that kind of manipulation worked out for Enron ...

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
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Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[Thos True via EV]

I have been a commercial electrician for over 20 years now, and have been
around several power sub stations. One thing that you quickly realize at
these sites is a stringent maintenance schedule, which typically recognizes
and implements the most efficient and proactive upgrades available. Maximum
efficiency in smallest footprint equals more income in the long run. This
cost is built into their operating budgets.
Doing this without drawing undue attention is generally in their best
interest, as most people typically don't pay any attention until it
disrupts their plans with an unexpected failure.

-Tom True


On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 5:17 AM, Michael Ross via EV 
wrote:

> " Our City Council had to really squeeze the utility to get capacity
> increased to handle the loads."
>
> You might say that the electric utilities are crashing the grid by not
> recognizing the need to respond to change.  EV use will grow, but not too
> quickly - in the present when the electric grid should be trying to keep
> pace it is not, because of intransigence and the influence of established
> interests.
>
> Short term, stockholders may see better returns, but long term building now
> would pay off even better. That is not how the market and finance seems to
> work these days. Instead it is let's bundle some paper and charge some
> fees; not let's rebuild, reinforce and improve infrastructure.
>
> BentMIke
>
>  utm_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail>
> Virus-free.
> www.avg.com
>  utm_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail>
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 2:42 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > You paint too broad a brush.
> >
> > There have been *serious* problems as new technologies have drawn from
> the
> > grid and increased useage.
> >
> > As plasma and other big screen TVs got big, various parts of my city had
> > serious issues with power outages, as the system wasn't designed for
> those
> > loads. And these weren't areas that had been there for 100 years.
> > Relatively new housing developments had continuing power problems.  Our
> > City Council had to really squeeze the utility to get capacity increased
> to
> > handle the loads.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Jan 1, 2018, at 7:33 PM, Thos True via EV 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Peri & All,
> > >
> > > I recall addressing this fear about a decade ago when it the fear was
> > being
> > > pushed by mainstream media.
> > > The reality is no different than events that have occurred many times
> > since
> > > the inception of the electrical grid. It is interesting that the
> > utilities
> > > seem to do their best to avoid this conversation.
> > > Some that we might recall were the fears about every house having a
> > > refrigerator and washing machine, then it was the clothes dryer,
> followed
> > > by microwave ovens & hand held appliances and the hot tub craze,
> followed
> > > by the air conditioner installations. The air conditioners do have a
> > > noticeable effect on the grid due to a few factors (1. Grid already
> > > stressed due to over heating. 2. Large numbers in a region using the
> > device
> > > at the same time (large, continuous inrush currents). 3. Extended
> periods
> > > of load for each device (in excess of 4 hours each).)
> > > The previous example share the relatively short, staggered inrush
> current
> > > events, followed by lower power demands, which are barely noticeable,
> > > according to the utilities themselves, since most L2 units use the same
> > > amount of power per use as the average clothes dryer.
> > >
> > > Tom True
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 7:28 AM, Peri Hartman via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> I think this article raises a good question, though I don't really
> think
> > >> it answers it. Currently, yes, the grid isn't significantly impacted.
> > But
> > >> what about if we had 100% EVs. What about local and long haul
> trucking?
> > >> What about other ICE powered equipment, e.g. earth movers, etc.? What
> > about
> > >> generation capacity as well as distribution capacity?
> > >>
> > >> Personally, our EV boosted our electricity consumption by about 10%. I
> > >> don't know how that number compares in general as, even with our EV,
> our
> > >> electricity usage is below the national average. Even so, that's only
> > >> accounting for residential EVs. Commercial and industrial electricity
> > usage
> > >> is much higher than residential. Is that enough to coincidentally
> > assume a
> > >> 10% figure for non residential EV charging? If this pans out to be
> > >> reasonably true, it would seem that EVs will not, long term, cause a
> > >> significant drain on our generation capacity, if any at all
> (considering
> > >> time of use).
> > >>
> > >> For 

Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[jim--- via EV]

Mark Abramowitz said (in part):
> There have been *serious* problems as new technologies have drawn from the 
> grid and increased useage.

> As plasma and other big screen TVs got big, various parts of my city had 
> serious issues with power outages, as the system wasn't designed for those 
> loads.
 
Where are you located?  Yes loads have increased, but certainly not causing 
capacity problems that are not being met by my (not so) local utility - 
Southern California Edison.
 
 
73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org
 
 
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Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[Michael Ross via EV]

" Our City Council had to really squeeze the utility to get capacity
increased to handle the loads."

You might say that the electric utilities are crashing the grid by not
recognizing the need to respond to change.  EV use will grow, but not too
quickly - in the present when the electric grid should be trying to keep
pace it is not, because of intransigence and the influence of established
interests.

Short term, stockholders may see better returns, but long term building now
would pay off even better. That is not how the market and finance seems to
work these days. Instead it is let's bundle some paper and charge some
fees; not let's rebuild, reinforce and improve infrastructure.

BentMIke


Virus-free.
www.avg.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Tue, Jan 2, 2018 at 2:42 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:

> You paint too broad a brush.
>
> There have been *serious* problems as new technologies have drawn from the
> grid and increased useage.
>
> As plasma and other big screen TVs got big, various parts of my city had
> serious issues with power outages, as the system wasn't designed for those
> loads. And these weren't areas that had been there for 100 years.
> Relatively new housing developments had continuing power problems.  Our
> City Council had to really squeeze the utility to get capacity increased to
> handle the loads.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jan 1, 2018, at 7:33 PM, Thos True via EV  wrote:
> >
> > Peri & All,
> >
> > I recall addressing this fear about a decade ago when it the fear was
> being
> > pushed by mainstream media.
> > The reality is no different than events that have occurred many times
> since
> > the inception of the electrical grid. It is interesting that the
> utilities
> > seem to do their best to avoid this conversation.
> > Some that we might recall were the fears about every house having a
> > refrigerator and washing machine, then it was the clothes dryer, followed
> > by microwave ovens & hand held appliances and the hot tub craze, followed
> > by the air conditioner installations. The air conditioners do have a
> > noticeable effect on the grid due to a few factors (1. Grid already
> > stressed due to over heating. 2. Large numbers in a region using the
> device
> > at the same time (large, continuous inrush currents). 3. Extended periods
> > of load for each device (in excess of 4 hours each).)
> > The previous example share the relatively short, staggered inrush current
> > events, followed by lower power demands, which are barely noticeable,
> > according to the utilities themselves, since most L2 units use the same
> > amount of power per use as the average clothes dryer.
> >
> > Tom True
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 7:28 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I think this article raises a good question, though I don't really think
> >> it answers it. Currently, yes, the grid isn't significantly impacted.
> But
> >> what about if we had 100% EVs. What about local and long haul trucking?
> >> What about other ICE powered equipment, e.g. earth movers, etc.? What
> about
> >> generation capacity as well as distribution capacity?
> >>
> >> Personally, our EV boosted our electricity consumption by about 10%. I
> >> don't know how that number compares in general as, even with our EV, our
> >> electricity usage is below the national average. Even so, that's only
> >> accounting for residential EVs. Commercial and industrial electricity
> usage
> >> is much higher than residential. Is that enough to coincidentally
> assume a
> >> 10% figure for non residential EV charging? If this pans out to be
> >> reasonably true, it would seem that EVs will not, long term, cause a
> >> significant drain on our generation capacity, if any at all (considering
> >> time of use).
> >>
> >> For distribution, yes, we clearly can't have everyone charging their EVs
> >> at 5:30pm.  But, as we move more and more to renewables, we'll need grid
> >> storage anyway and, using the "10% rule", EVs won't be a significant
> >> factor. The significant factor will be how to get Nevada solar to the
> >> cloudy Pacific NW or to get Texas wind to sticky South Carolina. And
> how to
> >> store several days worth to even out nature's effects.
> >>
> >> Does anyone have real numbers of the effects of 100% EVs on generation
> and
> >> distribution?
> >>
> >> Peri
> >>
> >> https://www.nrdc.org/experts/noah-garcia/good-news-evs-are-n
> >> ot-crashing-grid
> >>
> >> -- Original Message --
> >> From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
> >> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> >> Cc: "brucedp5" 
> >> Sent: 30-Dec-17 10:08:53 PM
> >> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20171226
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> 

Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

You paint too broad a brush.

There have been *serious* problems as new technologies have drawn from the grid 
and increased useage.

As plasma and other big screen TVs got big, various parts of my city had 
serious issues with power outages, as the system wasn't designed for those 
loads. And these weren't areas that had been there for 100 years. Relatively 
new housing developments had continuing power problems.  Our City Council had 
to really squeeze the utility to get capacity increased to handle the loads.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 1, 2018, at 7:33 PM, Thos True via EV  wrote:
> 
> Peri & All,
> 
> I recall addressing this fear about a decade ago when it the fear was being
> pushed by mainstream media.
> The reality is no different than events that have occurred many times since
> the inception of the electrical grid. It is interesting that the utilities
> seem to do their best to avoid this conversation.
> Some that we might recall were the fears about every house having a
> refrigerator and washing machine, then it was the clothes dryer, followed
> by microwave ovens & hand held appliances and the hot tub craze, followed
> by the air conditioner installations. The air conditioners do have a
> noticeable effect on the grid due to a few factors (1. Grid already
> stressed due to over heating. 2. Large numbers in a region using the device
> at the same time (large, continuous inrush currents). 3. Extended periods
> of load for each device (in excess of 4 hours each).)
> The previous example share the relatively short, staggered inrush current
> events, followed by lower power demands, which are barely noticeable,
> according to the utilities themselves, since most L2 units use the same
> amount of power per use as the average clothes dryer.
> 
> Tom True
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 7:28 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
> 
>> I think this article raises a good question, though I don't really think
>> it answers it. Currently, yes, the grid isn't significantly impacted. But
>> what about if we had 100% EVs. What about local and long haul trucking?
>> What about other ICE powered equipment, e.g. earth movers, etc.? What about
>> generation capacity as well as distribution capacity?
>> 
>> Personally, our EV boosted our electricity consumption by about 10%. I
>> don't know how that number compares in general as, even with our EV, our
>> electricity usage is below the national average. Even so, that's only
>> accounting for residential EVs. Commercial and industrial electricity usage
>> is much higher than residential. Is that enough to coincidentally assume a
>> 10% figure for non residential EV charging? If this pans out to be
>> reasonably true, it would seem that EVs will not, long term, cause a
>> significant drain on our generation capacity, if any at all (considering
>> time of use).
>> 
>> For distribution, yes, we clearly can't have everyone charging their EVs
>> at 5:30pm.  But, as we move more and more to renewables, we'll need grid
>> storage anyway and, using the "10% rule", EVs won't be a significant
>> factor. The significant factor will be how to get Nevada solar to the
>> cloudy Pacific NW or to get Texas wind to sticky South Carolina. And how to
>> store several days worth to even out nature's effects.
>> 
>> Does anyone have real numbers of the effects of 100% EVs on generation and
>> distribution?
>> 
>> Peri
>> 
>> https://www.nrdc.org/experts/noah-garcia/good-news-evs-are-n
>> ot-crashing-grid
>> 
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
>> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>> Cc: "brucedp5" 
>> Sent: 30-Dec-17 10:08:53 PM
>> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20171226
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.
>>> com/EVLN-Tesla-3-EV-handling-snow-covered-rutted-off-road-
>>> track-on-standard-tires-v-tp4689040.html
>>> EVLN: Tesla-3 EV handling snow-covered rutted off-road track on standard
>>> tires (v)
>>> The current versions of Tesla's flagship vehicles control power to all
>>> four
>>> wheels through dual independently operated electric motors, providing
>>> unparalleled traction in even the worst of winter conditions. Short of
>>> driving your Tesla through a snow-covered off-road track with deep, muddy
>>> ruts, Model S and Model X's ...
>>> 
>>> +
>>> https://www.teslarati.com/verne-troyer-tesla-model-s-kids-unboxing-video/
>>> Verne Troyer just got a Tesla Model S for Kids and says it’s a beast
>>> December 28, 2017  Not long after, Troyer began his “unboxing” of the
>>> Model
>>> S for Kids, where he gave a surprisingly complete rundown of the miniature
>>> vehicle's features. During the course of the video, Troyer showed off the
>>> miniature car's frunk, Tesla-branded charger, and its battery pack. The
>>> Austin Powers star also took ...
>>> https://youtu.be/6K_nTNvyTtE
>>> 
>>> 

Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[Bill Dube via EV]

I agree with Tom. As EV are slowly adopted, the grid will find ways to 
adapt. Always will and always has.


My state electric utility has asked customers to volunteer (with a nice 
cash incentive) to put "black boxes" on their air conditioning loads and 
electric water heaters.
The boxes turn off these loads, under the command of the utility, for a 
few minutes during peak load periods.
With the thermal inertia, you never notice your A/C was off for a few 
extra minutes.

Shaves the tops right off the peak loads on the grid quite nicely.
Little black boxes under remote control are the cheap solution. Everyone 
wins.


I would imagine that when EV charging loads become significant, they 
will do the same thing. It would be stupid not to.
Only makes sense. Costs very little and you leave the grid pretty much 
the same.
Utilities love it. You sell more kWhrs using the identical generation 
and distribution equipment. No upgrades whatsoever.
Only folks that volunteer have to do it, and save a bit of money. 
Everyone wins.

Simple simple. What's not to like?

The "grid overload" is simply a scare tactic campaign paid for by folks 
that will stand to lose by adoption of EVs. (Koch brothers?)


Bill D.


 On 1/1/2018 8:33 PM, Thos True via EV wrote:

Peri & All,

I recall addressing this fear about a decade ago when it the fear was being
pushed by mainstream media.
The reality is no different than events that have occurred many times since
the inception of the electrical grid. It is interesting that the utilities
seem to do their best to avoid this conversation.
Some that we might recall were the fears about every house having a
refrigerator and washing machine, then it was the clothes dryer, followed
by microwave ovens & hand held appliances and the hot tub craze, followed
by the air conditioner installations. The air conditioners do have a
noticeable effect on the grid due to a few factors (1. Grid already
stressed due to over heating. 2. Large numbers in a region using the device
at the same time (large, continuous inrush currents). 3. Extended periods
of load for each device (in excess of 4 hours each).)
The previous example share the relatively short, staggered inrush current
events, followed by lower power demands, which are barely noticeable,
according to the utilities themselves, since most L2 units use the same
amount of power per use as the average clothes dryer.

Tom True








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Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[Thos True via EV]

Peri & All,

I recall addressing this fear about a decade ago when it the fear was being
pushed by mainstream media.
The reality is no different than events that have occurred many times since
the inception of the electrical grid. It is interesting that the utilities
seem to do their best to avoid this conversation.
Some that we might recall were the fears about every house having a
refrigerator and washing machine, then it was the clothes dryer, followed
by microwave ovens & hand held appliances and the hot tub craze, followed
by the air conditioner installations. The air conditioners do have a
noticeable effect on the grid due to a few factors (1. Grid already
stressed due to over heating. 2. Large numbers in a region using the device
at the same time (large, continuous inrush currents). 3. Extended periods
of load for each device (in excess of 4 hours each).)
The previous example share the relatively short, staggered inrush current
events, followed by lower power demands, which are barely noticeable,
according to the utilities themselves, since most L2 units use the same
amount of power per use as the average clothes dryer.

Tom True



On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 7:28 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> I think this article raises a good question, though I don't really think
> it answers it. Currently, yes, the grid isn't significantly impacted. But
> what about if we had 100% EVs. What about local and long haul trucking?
> What about other ICE powered equipment, e.g. earth movers, etc.? What about
> generation capacity as well as distribution capacity?
>
> Personally, our EV boosted our electricity consumption by about 10%. I
> don't know how that number compares in general as, even with our EV, our
> electricity usage is below the national average. Even so, that's only
> accounting for residential EVs. Commercial and industrial electricity usage
> is much higher than residential. Is that enough to coincidentally assume a
> 10% figure for non residential EV charging? If this pans out to be
> reasonably true, it would seem that EVs will not, long term, cause a
> significant drain on our generation capacity, if any at all (considering
> time of use).
>
> For distribution, yes, we clearly can't have everyone charging their EVs
> at 5:30pm.  But, as we move more and more to renewables, we'll need grid
> storage anyway and, using the "10% rule", EVs won't be a significant
> factor. The significant factor will be how to get Nevada solar to the
> cloudy Pacific NW or to get Texas wind to sticky South Carolina. And how to
> store several days worth to even out nature's effects.
>
> Does anyone have real numbers of the effects of 100% EVs on generation and
> distribution?
>
> Peri
>
> https://www.nrdc.org/experts/noah-garcia/good-news-evs-are-n
> ot-crashing-grid
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: "brucedp5" 
> Sent: 30-Dec-17 10:08:53 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20171226
>
>
>>
>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.
>> com/EVLN-Tesla-3-EV-handling-snow-covered-rutted-off-road-
>> track-on-standard-tires-v-tp4689040.html
>> EVLN: Tesla-3 EV handling snow-covered rutted off-road track on standard
>> tires (v)
>> The current versions of Tesla's flagship vehicles control power to all
>> four
>> wheels through dual independently operated electric motors, providing
>> unparalleled traction in even the worst of winter conditions. Short of
>> driving your Tesla through a snow-covered off-road track with deep, muddy
>> ruts, Model S and Model X's ...
>>
>> +
>> https://www.teslarati.com/verne-troyer-tesla-model-s-kids-unboxing-video/
>> Verne Troyer just got a Tesla Model S for Kids and says it’s a beast
>> December 28, 2017  Not long after, Troyer began his “unboxing” of the
>> Model
>> S for Kids, where he gave a surprisingly complete rundown of the miniature
>> vehicle's features. During the course of the video, Troyer showed off the
>> miniature car's frunk, Tesla-branded charger, and its battery pack. The
>> Austin Powers star also took ...
>> https://youtu.be/6K_nTNvyTtE
>>
>> https://www.nrdc.org/experts/noah-garcia/good-news-evs-are-n
>> ot-crashing-grid
>> Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid
>> Dec 27, 2017  First, despite fears that EVs would overwhelm the existing
>> electric grid infrastructure, only a very minor fraction of them—0.19
>> percent—have actually necessitated distribution system or service line
>> upgrades. Moreover, this data point has translated to relatively low
>> levels
>> of EV-related spending on grid maintenance: of the $5 ...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
>> http://evdl.org/archive/
>>
>>
>> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
>> ___
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> 

Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[paul dove via EV]

just like water. if consumption  starts to reach production then they raise 
prices during peak and/or make rules to only charge during non-peak hours.  
this can also be mitigated by having battery backups on houses that are charged 
during off-peak hours.


  From: Peri Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
Cc: Peri Hartman <pe...@kotatko.com>
 Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 9:28 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid
   
I think this article raises a good question, though I don't really think 
it answers it. Currently, yes, the grid isn't significantly impacted. 
But what about if we had 100% EVs. What about local and long haul 
trucking? What about other ICE powered equipment, e.g. earth movers, 
etc.? What about generation capacity as well as distribution capacity?

Personally, our EV boosted our electricity consumption by about 10%. I 
don't know how that number compares in general as, even with our EV, our 
electricity usage is below the national average. Even so, that's only 
accounting for residential EVs. Commercial and industrial electricity 
usage is much higher than residential. Is that enough to coincidentally 
assume a 10% figure for non residential EV charging? If this pans out to 
be reasonably true, it would seem that EVs will not, long term, cause a 
significant drain on our generation capacity, if any at all (considering 
time of use).

For distribution, yes, we clearly can't have everyone charging their EVs 
at 5:30pm.  But, as we move more and more to renewables, we'll need grid 
storage anyway and, using the "10% rule", EVs won't be a significant 
factor. The significant factor will be how to get Nevada solar to the 
cloudy Pacific NW or to get Texas wind to sticky South Carolina. And how 
to store several days worth to even out nature's effects.

Does anyone have real numbers of the effects of 100% EVs on generation 
and distribution?

Peri

https://www.nrdc.org/experts/noah-garcia/good-news-evs-are-not-crashing-grid




   
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Re: [EVDL] Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I think this article raises a good question, though I don't really think 
it answers it. Currently, yes, the grid isn't significantly impacted. 
But what about if we had 100% EVs. What about local and long haul 
trucking? What about other ICE powered equipment, e.g. earth movers, 
etc.? What about generation capacity as well as distribution capacity?


Personally, our EV boosted our electricity consumption by about 10%. I 
don't know how that number compares in general as, even with our EV, our 
electricity usage is below the national average. Even so, that's only 
accounting for residential EVs. Commercial and industrial electricity 
usage is much higher than residential. Is that enough to coincidentally 
assume a 10% figure for non residential EV charging? If this pans out to 
be reasonably true, it would seem that EVs will not, long term, cause a 
significant drain on our generation capacity, if any at all (considering 
time of use).


For distribution, yes, we clearly can't have everyone charging their EVs 
at 5:30pm.  But, as we move more and more to renewables, we'll need grid 
storage anyway and, using the "10% rule", EVs won't be a significant 
factor. The significant factor will be how to get Nevada solar to the 
cloudy Pacific NW or to get Texas wind to sticky South Carolina. And how 
to store several days worth to even out nature's effects.


Does anyone have real numbers of the effects of 100% EVs on generation 
and distribution?


Peri

https://www.nrdc.org/experts/noah-garcia/good-news-evs-are-not-crashing-grid

-- Original Message --
From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "brucedp5" 
Sent: 30-Dec-17 10:08:53 PM
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20171226




http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Tesla-3-EV-handling-snow-covered-rutted-off-road-track-on-standard-tires-v-tp4689040.html
EVLN: Tesla-3 EV handling snow-covered rutted off-road track on 
standard

tires (v)
The current versions of Tesla's flagship vehicles control power to all 
four

wheels through dual independently operated electric motors, providing
unparalleled traction in even the worst of winter conditions. Short of
driving your Tesla through a snow-covered off-road track with deep, 
muddy

ruts, Model S and Model X's ...

+
https://www.teslarati.com/verne-troyer-tesla-model-s-kids-unboxing-video/
Verne Troyer just got a Tesla Model S for Kids and says it’s a beast
December 28, 2017  Not long after, Troyer began his “unboxing” of the 
Model
S for Kids, where he gave a surprisingly complete rundown of the 
miniature
vehicle's features. During the course of the video, Troyer showed off 
the

miniature car's frunk, Tesla-branded charger, and its battery pack. The
Austin Powers star also took ...
https://youtu.be/6K_nTNvyTtE

https://www.nrdc.org/experts/noah-garcia/good-news-evs-are-not-crashing-grid
Good News: EVs Are Not Crashing the Grid
Dec 27, 2017  First, despite fears that EVs would overwhelm the 
existing

electric grid infrastructure, only a very minor fraction of them—0.19
percent—have actually necessitated distribution system or service line
upgrades. Moreover, this data point has translated to relatively low 
levels

of EV-related spending on grid maintenance: of the $5 ...




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
Sent from: 
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/

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(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)




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