Re: [EVDL] Lead carbon batteries.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 8 May 2018 at 17:17, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

> Not interested in normal lead but lead/carbon.  Is it more energy dense than
> normal sealed batteries?

I don't know what you're responding to here.  I didn't see anyone suggest 
that you should be or were interested in "normal lead," but I might have 
missed it.

To try to answer your question as best I can: 

The only lead carbon battery I'm famiiliar with is the Firefly battery, 
originally developed about 15 years ago. IIRC Firefly began as a division of 
Caterpillar, was spun off, declared bankruptcy, and reorganized under the 
same name.  Somehow I've gotten the impression that Firefly batteries are 
actually manufactured in India, but that might be wrong.  

In any case, it appears that the only current Firefly product is a group 31 
marine battery.  Their published specifications aren't directly comparable 
with Trojan's and US Battery's, but with Uve Rick's EVDL battery calculator 
I figured the Peukert exponent as 1.14 (quite decent) and the 1hr capacity 
as 80AH.  

A Trojan 30H marine battery has a Peukert of 1.24 and a calculated 1hr 
capacity of 72ah.  A USBMC 31DCXC2 (what a model number!) has a rated 1hr 
capacity of 74ah. Since those two are close, I'll just compare the Firefly 
to the USBMC.

If Firefly's claims can be believed, their battery stores about 8% more 
energy for the groiup 31 form factor.

You asked about energy density (Wh/liter).  With dimensions given for these 
batteries, we can calculate it.  I'm still using the 1hr rate, as this is 
about the discharge level we use in EVs.

The USBMC is 888Wh and 13.4 liters, for an energy density of 66.3Wh/L.  

The Firefly is 960Wh and 13.9 liters for -- again, if their specs are 
credible -- an energy density of 69.1Wh/L, about 4% more than USBMC's.

You didn't ask about specific energy, but you might find the comparison 
interesting and useful.  

The USBMC weighs 29.7kg for a specific energy of 29.9Wh/kg.

The Firefly is 33.5kg, for a specific energy of 28.7Wh/kg, about 4% less.

The Firefly folks make rather impressive cycle life claims, 1000 cycles at 
80% DOD and 3600 cycles at 50% DOD.  I wasn't able to find any independent 
test corroborating those claims.  Maybe Lee Hart will agree to test one for 
you if you buy it and have it sent to him!

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Lead carbon batteries.

[Alan Arrison via EV]

If they worked, someone would be using them. Nuff said.

There is no way they are twice as energy dense or give twice the cycles.

Al


On 5/8/2018 3:55 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

I have an eGo scooter and don't want to fuss with converting to lithium.  Are 
these batteries really twice as dense energy wise and cycle wise?  Lawrence 
Rhodes
   
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Re: [EVDL] Lead carbon batteries.

[paul dove via EV]

Has anyone used Lead Carbon batteries? I don't believe you need a BMS at least.

  From: Robert Bruninga via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 To: primobass...@sbcglobal.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>; ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org 
Cc: Robert Bruninga <bruni...@usna.edu>
 Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2018 6:58 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lead carbon batteries.
   
In the tesla, the density is almost ten times that of Pb and almost ten
times the cycles.

Bob


-Original Message-
From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2018 3:55 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org; ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org; ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Lawrence Rhodes <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [EVDL] Lead carbon batteries.


I have an eGo scooter and don't want to fuss with converting to lithium.
Are these batteries really twice as dense energy wise and cycle wise?
Lawrence Rhodes

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Re: [EVDL] Lead carbon batteries.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

Not interested in normal lead but lead/carbon.  Is it more energy dense than 
normal sealed batteries?  Lawrence Rhodes

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 4:58 AM, Robert Bruninga<bruni...@usna.edu> wrote:   
In the tesla, the density is almost ten times that of Pb and almost ten
times the cycles.

Bob


-Original Message-
From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2018 3:55 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org; ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org; ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Lawrence Rhodes <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [EVDL] Lead carbon batteries.


I have an eGo scooter and don't want to fuss with converting to lithium.
Are these batteries really twice as dense energy wise and cycle wise?
Lawrence Rhodes

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Re: [EVDL] Lead carbon batteries.

[Bill Dube via EV]

Lead-carbon has been around for 30 years in various forms. There is a 
good reason that lead-carbon has not been adopted by OEMs, RC modelers, 
cordless tool manufacturer, etc. They have high self-discharge issues, 
typical lead-acid sulfation issues, (even though some claim otherwise) 
and they don't seem to ever get into full production. Often investment 
scams, although some folk have really tried, none have succeeded in 
making a successful lead-carbon battery.


Bill D.


On 5/8/2018 7:55 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

I have an eGo scooter and don't want to fuss with converting to lithium.  Are 
these batteries really twice as dense energy wise and cycle wise?  Lawrence 
Rhodes
   
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Re: [EVDL] Lead carbon batteries.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

>From what I've read, these batteries have some characteristics of capacitors 
- most notably a rapid decline in voltage on discharge.  I can't find 
specifics on how steep the slope is, but if it's too rapid a drop, you might 
have to add some kind of buck or boost converter to maintain a more 
consistent voltage.  Otherwise you'd see a decline in power available long 
before the battery is flat.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Lead carbon batteries.

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

In the tesla, the density is almost ten times that of Pb and almost ten
times the cycles.

Bob


-Original Message-
From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2018 3:55 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org; ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org; ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Lawrence Rhodes <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [EVDL] Lead carbon batteries.


I have an eGo scooter and don't want to fuss with converting to lithium.
Are these batteries really twice as dense energy wise and cycle wise?
Lawrence Rhodes

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[EVDL] Lead carbon batteries.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

I have an eGo scooter and don't want to fuss with converting to lithium.  Are 
these batteries really twice as dense energy wise and cycle wise?  Lawrence 
Rhodes
  
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