Re: [EVDL] Lets discourage hydrogen advocates.

[Willie via EV]

On 6/26/19 8:46 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

I'm curious, Willie, when meeting one-on-one with people, did you ever 
have the chance to breach the question of where the hydrogen comes from 
? Some people, once engaged in a question, will at least listen.


I came upon the situation unexpectedly.  I was unprepared to make 
effective arguments.  Indeed, I was not fully up to speed on the 
hydrogen scam.  So, no, I was generally ineffective.


Doing a little googling...
Perhaps what I encountered was part of this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_Eco-marathon
which seems rather innocuous.  Perhaps the school could have chosen the 
BEV category as easily as the Fool Cell.  OTOH, it seems odd that Fool 
Cell would be given equal footing with ICE and BEV.


At the time I encountered, I had no idea that efficiency was the 
relevant parameter.  It seems this competition would be a good source of 
information on relative operating costs between ICE, BEV, Fool Cell.




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Re: [EVDL] Lets discourage hydrogen advocates.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/
This was a story saying Toyota thought Elon Musk was right but they were going 
to make Fool cells anyway.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Lets discourage hydrogen advocates.

[Jan Steinman via EV]

> From: "EVDL Administrator" 
>   
> 
> I expect that kind of stuff to ooze 
> out of DC, but we're better than that here.  

Hey, what's with the attack on DC? It's simpler than AC, and will get you there 
just as fast. Why, plenty of my friends drive on DC, and my three DC cars get 
wy better efficiency than those wimpy, girly-boy AC drivers do! As for 
"oozing out of DC," I'll have you know that my DC car hasn't oozed in what, 
several weeks now?

(Sorry, couldn't resist… :-)

But I do have to agree that, based on the evidence I've seen, hydrogen as a 
storage medium seems to have a lot of drawbacks and not many advantages.

Jan
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Re: [EVDL] Lets discourage hydrogen advocates.

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Very interesting situation. We may see a lot more of this. (And, it's 
much harder to imagine such support from the BEV side, since electricity 
is generated from such a diaspora.)


I'm curious, Willie, when meeting one-on-one with people, did you ever 
have the chance to breach the question of where the hydrogen comes from 
? Some people, once engaged in a question, will at least listen.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Willie via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Willie" 
Sent: 26-Jun-19 5:55:08 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lets discourage hydrogen advocates.



I offer this anecdote that I deem relevant.

Driving my then new Model S in about 2014, I was visiting some cousins near 
Golden/Denver.  At the time, the Texas-Colorado SuperCharger route was up through 
Wichita; before Trinidad opened.  One cousin was a recently retired high school teacher 
that still had close connections with her old school.  She wanted to do some EV promotion 
at the school and show me one of the school projects.  The project was a one off hydrogen 
single seat open wheel "race" car following some formula.  The car was on 
semi-permanent display inside the school.  I eventually learned that it was part of a 
Shell sponsored hydrogen promotion effort.  Zero emissions race series.  Fuel of the 
future.  That kind of thing. Much of the school was enthusiastic about the project and 
almost completely unaware of the issues of practical hydrogen use.  Or that Shell was 
trying to maintain control of vehicle fueling.   I would say it was highly successful in 
giving hydrogen a wide and favorable local audience.  Probably t

housands of people were left with a favorable view of hydrogen.  Maybe 10s of 
thousands.  Maybe more.  I think the car had a battery buffer.  I asked the 
source of fuel.  It was purchased or given in little pressurized metal flasks.  
Some where in the range of 1 quart to 1 gallon.  I believe Shell supplied car 
building kits and the schools were left mostly with chassis work.


That was my first encounter with rather dishonest hydrogen promotion at a local 
level.  I asked pointed questions but did not make any enemies. I fear I also 
failed to sway any opinions.  I did give a lot of Tesla rides/demos.  Maybe 
eventually sold a few Teslas.
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Re: [EVDL] Lets discourage hydrogen advocates.

[Willie via EV]

I offer this anecdote that I deem relevant.

Driving my then new Model S in about 2014, I was visiting some cousins 
near Golden/Denver.  At the time, the Texas-Colorado SuperCharger route 
was up through Wichita; before Trinidad opened.  One cousin was a 
recently retired high school teacher that still had close connections 
with her old school.  She wanted to do some EV promotion at the school 
and show me one of the school projects.  The project was a one off 
hydrogen single seat open wheel "race" car following some formula.  The 
car was on semi-permanent display inside the school.  I eventually 
learned that it was part of a Shell sponsored hydrogen promotion effort. 
 Zero emissions race series.  Fuel of the future.  That kind of thing. 
Much of the school was enthusiastic about the project and almost 
completely unaware of the issues of practical hydrogen use.  Or that 
Shell was trying to maintain control of vehicle fueling.   I would say 
it was highly successful in giving hydrogen a wide and favorable local 
audience.  Probably thousands of people were left with a favorable view 
of hydrogen.  Maybe 10s of thousands.  Maybe more.  I think the car had 
a battery buffer.  I asked the source of fuel.  It was purchased or 
given in little pressurized metal flasks.  Some where in the range of 1 
quart to 1 gallon.  I believe Shell supplied car building kits and the 
schools were left mostly with chassis work.


That was my first encounter with rather dishonest hydrogen promotion at 
a local level.  I asked pointed questions but did not make any enemies. 
I fear I also failed to sway any opinions.  I did give a lot of Tesla 
rides/demos.  Maybe eventually sold a few Teslas.

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Re: [EVDL] Lets discourage hydrogen advocates.

[Bill Dube via EV]

Actually, H2 fuel cell vehicles are hybrid cars. They have a battery 
/and/ a fuel cell.


The battery provides a boost for acceleration, and stores energy during 
regen. The fuel cell can then be smaller to only provide just the 
average power needs. The battery also allows the fuel cell to ramp up 
and down more slowly as there are pumps, flows, etc. involved.


I have done the math. Indeed, fuel cells don't make economic sense in 
passenger vehicles. The fuel cost more than electricity per mile driven. 
This is a fact that is easily confirmed. Just compare the mileage, fuel 
use, and fuel cost for both types of vehicle. Pretty simple. (If you 
want to "twist the knife" add in the compression costs for H2.)


An important additional cost that most folks don't realize is that fuel 
cells have a limited lifespan. When they "breathe" in air, they also 
take in pollutants and slowly poison the fuel cell. The cost of 
replacement can be quite pricey as the active element is platinum. (At 
least it was last time I checked, but they may have come up with some 
new alternative. The alternatives to platinum that I am aware of greatly 
lower the efficiency, so they are not really cost effective.) Early fuel 
cell vehicles had to replace the fuels cells after just a few months of 
use. They have made great strides since then, but they still wear out, 
which the fuel cell advocates never seem to mention. ;-)


Bill D.

On 6/26/2019 5:32 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:
Gentlemen, please! This is the electric vehicle *discussion* list; not 
Facebook, talk radio, or a political campaign rally. People who hold 
an opposing view aren't idiots, crooks, or liars. Let's skip the 
emotion, and stick to the facts.


May I point out that most H2 fueled vehicles *are* EVs? Their H2 tanks 
and fuel cells are just a different form of battery. They are thus a 
reasonable topic for discussion on this list.


The world faces serious problems with energy usage, climate change, 
and rising CO2 levels. We got into this mess by letting others make 
the choices for us. They wound up deciding based on money, 
self-interest, and a "we've always done it this way" attitude. It's 
becoming increasingly clear that "their way" will lead to a disastrous 
future.


So let's discuss *every* possible transportation alternative. Let's 
debate what *kind* of battery is best; its performance and cost, 
advantages and disadvantages. It is likely that different ones will be 
best for different purposes. We need to try them *all*! Learn what 
works, and what doesn't.




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Re: [EVDL] Lets discourage hydrogen advocates.

[Lee Hart via EV]

Gentlemen, please! This is the electric vehicle *discussion* list; not 
Facebook, talk radio, or a political campaign rally. People who hold an 
opposing view aren't idiots, crooks, or liars. Let's skip the emotion, 
and stick to the facts.


May I point out that most H2 fueled vehicles *are* EVs? Their H2 tanks 
and fuel cells are just a different form of battery. They are thus a 
reasonable topic for discussion on this list.


The world faces serious problems with energy usage, climate change, and 
rising CO2 levels. We got into this mess by letting others make the 
choices for us. They wound up deciding based on money, self-interest, 
and a "we've always done it this way" attitude. It's becoming 
increasingly clear that "their way" will lead to a disastrous future.


So let's discuss *every* possible transportation alternative. Let's 
debate what *kind* of battery is best; its performance and cost, 
advantages and disadvantages. It is likely that different ones will be 
best for different purposes. We need to try them *all*! Learn what 
works, and what doesn't.


--
In software development, there are two kinds of error: Conceptual
errors, implementation errors, and off-by-one errors. (anonymous)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Lets discourage hydrogen advocates.

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Dear Mark,
You know the data, you know that California is building an unnecessary 
infrastructure, you just choose to have a different opinion about it.
Does not change reality.
Reality is that today the Model 3 charges fast enough that you can drive around 
the clock and as long as you want by keeping the generally recommended practice 
of driving 2 hours and stopping 10 minutes. In those 10 minutes the Model 3 on 
a V3 Supercharger will get enough energy to go another 2 hours of driving. And 
the developments in battery land have not stopped, there is still fast progress 
made, so the speed of recharging, the capacity of the battery in the vehicle 
and time it takes to recharge to make the next leg of the journey are ever 
improving. For a long time the claim from H2 advocates was that the refueling 
would be so much faster than battery recharging.
That is proving to be false.
Hydrogen infrastructure is ill-advised, unnecessary and a guaranteed waste of 
taxpayer (you and me) money for being redundant before it has even fully rolled 
out. It can’t do any better than the grid, which is already abundant, so there 
is no need to invest untold millions into something that is never going to be 
better.
Seriously: mention something that the best commercially available family FCEV 
is better at than the best BEV.
Regards,
Cor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Mark Abramowitz via EV
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 7:46 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Mark Abramowitz; Lawrence Rhodes
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lets discourage hydrogen advocates.

Is there even the most minutiae of evidence of your preposterous assertion?

It’s simply not true. False. Kochish.

And anti-environmental, to boot.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Jun 25, 2019, at 9:10 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:
> 
> California tax dollars are being spent to support hydrogen infrastructure. 
> https://twitter.com/search?q=%40NancySkinnerCA%20hydrogen=typd  Nancy 
> Skinner, a well meaning Democrat from Berkely, is leading the charge with a 
> senate bill.  Please send your messages of truth that hydrogen is wasteful, 
> inefficient and will hold people hostage to the whims of the market like 
> gasoline and diesel.  The only reason hydrogen is being pushed is to 
> propagate the gasoline/diesel model started in the last two centuries.  
> Lawrence Rhodes
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Lets discourage hydrogen advocates.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

Citation needed.  In this thread I'm seeing  too many undocumented claims, 
and not enough well-supported fact.  

Also, what's with the personal digs?  I expect that kind of stuff to ooze 
out of DC, but we're better than that here.  

Let's cool it, please.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Lets discourage hydrogen advocates.

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Mark,

Do you have any data to prove the outrageous claim that all 3 FCEVs in your 
family have better efficiency than most BEVs?
The data that I have seen so far does not bear that conclusion.

If Hydrogen embrittlement is not a problem, why are there Standards and codes 
to control hydrogen-induced cracking in pressure vessels and pipes for hydrogen 
gas storage and transport, to combat the effects of Hydrogen embrittlement?

Just wondering, usually code (law) is only written to take care of a serious 
problem.
Cor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Mark Abramowitz via EV
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 9:32 PM
To: Lawrence Rhodes
Cc: Mark Abramowitz; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lets discourage hydrogen advocates.

Since you end with a flurry of inaccurate and personal attacks, I’ll start 
there.

First of all, the three fuel cell cars in my family run on less fossil fuel 
than most BEV drivers on this list. (If you always charge your car with 100% 
solar energy, congratulations, you are cleaner than me - for now). Check the  
latest CEC numbers for grid renewable content.

Secondly, as far as my income from hydrogen advocacy, I’m not sure where you 
got the impression that I make living from hydrogen advocacy, but your comment 
is false and misleading. Over the last five years or so, I’ve earned ZERO from 
hydrogen advocacy. In fact, much of my income derives from providing advice in 
recommending spending in support of BEV technologies. I will admit to having 
some hydrogen industry client on occasion - but you are barking up the wrong 
tree, my friend. And if you remember that I offered to help you with BEV 
charging infrastructure difficulties at Caltech a few years ago - that wasn’t 
paid either.

Third, I’m not sure what on earth you are talking about when you complain about 
the market, and then say prices are too low. But whatever your concerns, they 
can be addressed , much the same way as electricity prices are.

To suggest that hydrogen embrittlement has been a problem and caused problems 
is false on its face - you are the first I have EVER seen suggest that.

I won’t disparage the cost of battery electric infrastructure because it’s one 
of the two zero emission technologies we have, and is important for cleaning 
the air, but let’s just say that your implicit assumptions about total cost 
miss the mark, particularly at scale. But there are many in the fossil fuel 
industry who will welcome your emphasis on cost.

I don’t know where and how you get your efficiency numbers, but the technology 
is changing quickly  - but I know that that’s not what matters to you anyway, 
as such a full throated attack on one of the electric drive technologies that 
differ in storage mechanism have to be about something more than that.

You start with “let’s be clear”, but you’ve given us everything but, except 
maybe clearly wrong.  Very Trumpesque. I won’t argue any more with you - you 
want to slow progress towards clean air, go ahead - you’re doing the fossil 
industry’s work for them.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Jun 25, 2019, at 6:20 PM, Lawrence Rhodes  
> wrote:
> 
> Let's be clear.  Hydrogen is three times more inefficient than BEV when 
> electrolyzed. It is twice as inefficient when reformed from natural gas. 
> Hydrogen stations are a million dollars or more.  Fast chargers are 50k.  
> Level iI chargers start at $200.00.  You can go to the EPA fuel economy site 
> to see the figures. Hydrogen embrittlement is a major problem and must be 
> addressed after the accidents in Oslo, Santa Clara and Southern California. 
> Think Hindenburg. While I think Hydrogen is a stupid idea I have no problem 
> with Shell or Chevron making a fueling system. It is exactly the same system 
> used to hold hostage all users to the quirks of the market and why we have 4 
> dollar gas which is half what it should be. .However when my tax dollars are 
> used to subsidize this wasteful technology I object and will do everything in 
> my power to throw a monkey wrench in the works. So Mark with you profiting 
> from hydrogen advocacy you are not objective and I could compare you to a 
> coal miner losing his job because of superior technology. Take your fossil 
> fuel powered cell phone and crawl back under the rock you came from.  
> Lawrence Rhodes
> 
> 
> On Tue, 6/25/19, Mark Abramowitz  wrote:
> 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lets discourage hydrogen advocates.
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
> Date: Tuesday, June 25, 2019, 3:22 PM
> 
> Is there even the most minutiae
> of evidence of your preposterous assertion?
> 
> It’s simply not true. False.
> Kochish.
> 
> And
> anti-environmental, to boot.
> 
> - Mark
> 
> Sent
> from my natural gas powered iP

Re: [EVDL] Lets discourage hydrogen advocates.

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Since you end with a flurry of inaccurate and personal attacks, I’ll start 
there.

First of all, the three fuel cell cars in my family run on less fossil fuel 
than most BEV drivers on this list. (If you always charge your car with 100% 
solar energy, congratulations, you are cleaner than me - for now). Check the  
latest CEC numbers for grid renewable content.

Secondly, as far as my income from hydrogen advocacy, I’m not sure where you 
got the impression that I make living from hydrogen advocacy, but your comment 
is false and misleading. Over the last five years or so, I’ve earned ZERO from 
hydrogen advocacy. In fact, much of my income derives from providing advice in 
recommending spending in support of BEV technologies. I will admit to having 
some hydrogen industry client on occasion - but you are barking up the wrong 
tree, my friend. And if you remember that I offered to help you with BEV 
charging infrastructure difficulties at Caltech a few years ago - that wasn’t 
paid either.

Third, I’m not sure what on earth you are talking about when you complain about 
the market, and then say prices are too low. But whatever your concerns, they 
can be addressed , much the same way as electricity prices are.

To suggest that hydrogen embrittlement has been a problem and caused problems 
is false on its face - you are the first I have EVER seen suggest that.

I won’t disparage the cost of battery electric infrastructure because it’s one 
of the two zero emission technologies we have, and is important for cleaning 
the air, but let’s just say that your implicit assumptions about total cost 
miss the mark, particularly at scale. But there are many in the fossil fuel 
industry who will welcome your emphasis on cost.

I don’t know where and how you get your efficiency numbers, but the technology 
is changing quickly  - but I know that that’s not what matters to you anyway, 
as such a full throated attack on one of the electric drive technologies that 
differ in storage mechanism have to be about something more than that.

You start with “let’s be clear”, but you’ve given us everything but, except 
maybe clearly wrong.  Very Trumpesque. I won’t argue any more with you - you 
want to slow progress towards clean air, go ahead - you’re doing the fossil 
industry’s work for them.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Jun 25, 2019, at 6:20 PM, Lawrence Rhodes  
> wrote:
> 
> Let's be clear.  Hydrogen is three times more inefficient than BEV when 
> electrolyzed. It is twice as inefficient when reformed from natural gas. 
> Hydrogen stations are a million dollars or more.  Fast chargers are 50k.  
> Level iI chargers start at $200.00.  You can go to the EPA fuel economy site 
> to see the figures. Hydrogen embrittlement is a major problem and must be 
> addressed after the accidents in Oslo, Santa Clara and Southern California. 
> Think Hindenburg. While I think Hydrogen is a stupid idea I have no problem 
> with Shell or Chevron making a fueling system. It is exactly the same system 
> used to hold hostage all users to the quirks of the market and why we have 4 
> dollar gas which is half what it should be. .However when my tax dollars are 
> used to subsidize this wasteful technology I object and will do everything in 
> my power to throw a monkey wrench in the works. So Mark with you profiting 
> from hydrogen advocacy you are not objective and I could compare you to a 
> coal miner losing his job because of superior technology. Take your fossil 
> fuel powered cell phone and crawl back under the rock you came from.  
> Lawrence Rhodes
> 
> 
> On Tue, 6/25/19, Mark Abramowitz  wrote:
> 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lets discourage hydrogen advocates.
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
> Date: Tuesday, June 25, 2019, 3:22 PM
> 
> Is there even the most minutiae
> of evidence of your preposterous assertion?
> 
> It’s simply not true. False.
> Kochish.
> 
> And
> anti-environmental, to boot.
> 
> - Mark
> 
> Sent
> from my natural gas powered iPhone
> 
>> 
> On Jun 25, 2019, at 9:10 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
> wrote:
>> 
>> California
> tax dollars are being spent to support hydrogen
> infrastructure. 
> https://twitter.com/search?q=%40NancySkinnerCA%20hydrogen=typd
>   Nancy Skinner, a well meaning Democrat from Berkely, is
> leading the charge with a senate bill.  Please send your
> messages of truth that hydrogen is wasteful, inefficient and
> will hold people hostage to the whims of the market like
> gasoline and diesel.  The only reason hydrogen is being
> pushed is to propagate the gasoline/diesel model started in
> the last two centuries.  Lawrence Rhodes
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- next pa

Re: [EVDL] Lets discourage hydrogen advocates.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

Let's be clear.  Hydrogen is three times more inefficient than BEV when 
electrolyzed. It is twice as inefficient when reformed from natural gas. 
Hydrogen stations are a million dollars or more.  Fast chargers are 50k.  Level 
iI chargers start at $200.00.  You can go to the EPA fuel economy site to see 
the figures. Hydrogen embrittlement is a major problem and must be addressed 
after the accidents in Oslo, Santa Clara and Southern California. Think 
Hindenburg. While I think Hydrogen is a stupid idea I have no problem with 
Shell or Chevron making a fueling system. It is exactly the same system used to 
hold hostage all users to the quirks of the market and why we have 4 dollar gas 
which is half what it should be. .However when my tax dollars are used to 
subsidize this wasteful technology I object and will do everything in my power 
to throw a monkey wrench in the works. So Mark with you profiting from hydrogen 
advocacy you are not objective and I could compare you to a coal miner losing 
his job because of superior technology. Take your fossil fuel powered cell 
phone and crawl back under the rock you came from.  Lawrence Rhodes


On Tue, 6/25/19, Mark Abramowitz  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lets discourage hydrogen advocates.
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Cc: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
 Date: Tuesday, June 25, 2019, 3:22 PM
 
 Is there even the most minutiae
 of evidence of your preposterous assertion?
 
 It’s simply not true. False.
 Kochish.
 
 And
 anti-environmental, to boot.
 
 - Mark
 
 Sent
 from my natural gas powered iPhone
 
 >
 On Jun 25, 2019, at 9:10 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
 wrote:
 > 
 > California
 tax dollars are being spent to support hydrogen
 infrastructure. 
https://twitter.com/search?q=%40NancySkinnerCA%20hydrogen=typd
  Nancy Skinner, a well meaning Democrat from Berkely, is
 leading the charge with a senate bill.  Please send your
 messages of truth that hydrogen is wasteful, inefficient and
 will hold people hostage to the whims of the market like
 gasoline and diesel.  The only reason hydrogen is being
 pushed is to propagate the gasoline/diesel model started in
 the last two centuries.  Lawrence Rhodes
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > -- next part --
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 > 
 
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Re: [EVDL] Lets discourage hydrogen advocates.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 25 Jun 2019 at 16:10, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

> California tax dollars are being spent to support hydrogen
>  infrastructure. https://twitter.com/search?q=%40NancySkinnerCA%20hydrogen
>  c=typd

That link gives me a blank page.  I don't do Twitter anyway.  Could you 
please quote or summarize the contents for those of us who aren't Twitter 
Twits?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[EVDL] Lets discourage hydrogen advocates.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

 California tax dollars are being spent to support hydrogen infrastructure. 
https://twitter.com/search?q=%40NancySkinnerCA%20hydrogen=typd  Nancy 
Skinner, a well meaning Democrat from Berkely, is leading the charge with a 
senate bill.  Please send your messages of truth that hydrogen is wasteful, 
inefficient and will hold people hostage to the whims of the market like 
gasoline and diesel.  The only reason hydrogen is being pushed is to propagate 
the gasoline/diesel model started in the last two centuries.  Lawrence Rhodes



  
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