Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-17 Thread Lee Hart via EV
Roland via EV wrote: Did any of you monitor the voltage of the most negative cell and the most positive cell during the charging cycle and discharge cycle using a very high charging system?... Did not have any BMS back in the 70's at the time. During the discharging cycle which may be up to

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Russ Sciville via EV
2015, 22:37 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. No they don't. 30 to 35 miles on battery. You would have to prove that, Of course the i-MiEV will go further if you drive 40 MPH. I was speaking of normal driving.       From: Russ Sciville rustyb...@yahoo.co.uk To: Paul Dove dov

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
On 13 May 2015 at 22:31, Lee Hart via EV wrote: a certain percentage of the market will never be happy with EVs until they are just like ICEs. I hate to say it, and I'm vulnerable to citation needed, but I'd have to estimate that percentage at around 90 percent. :-\ Especially here in the

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
On 13 May 2015 at 10:58, Ben Goren via EV wrote: 15 kWh / 15 minutes is 60 kilowatts...not quite the level of insanity of a megawatt, but still in a range far beyond what you'd ever see in a residential setting. Not so far beyond at all. A typical US suburban tract home has a 200 amp, 240

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Rick Beebe via EV
On 05/14/2015 12:21 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: Worse...I don't think I've ever seen anything bigger than a 220V / 50A breaker in a residential panel -- though, granted, I'm certainly not an electrician. I have an 80A breaker in my panel for the 15Kw backup heat in our air-source heat pump.

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On May 14, 2015, at 9:36 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: My guess: I think the demand for roadside charging will be fairly high as (another guess) 30%-50% of the residences will not have access to domestic charging - because they are in a multistory dwelling with few (or no)

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On May 14, 2015, at 10:23 AM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I'd guess that one nightmare scenario for the utilities is for everyone in the ritzy neighborhood to arrive home with their Teslas, and plug them all into their superchargers at the same time! Indeed, that may well be a

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread tomw via EV
I agree with Jamie. There are obviously a great range of situations, but I would guess his is more typical.Where I live people seem to roughly fall into two categories: those who like evs but can't afford one, and those who can afford an ev but don't want one. The former can only afford one

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Lee Hart via EV
EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: A typical US suburban tract home has a 200 amp, 240 volt service... Many modern mcmansions, which are often built by the dozens in high end developments, now have 400 amp service. This would allow for a continous power of almost 77kW. Not quite. That's the

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Roland via EV
string of cells? Roland - Original Message - From: Ben Goren via EVmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org To: EVDL Administratormailto:evp...@drmm.net ; Electric Vehicle Discussion Listmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2015 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Michael Ross via EV
You can't just splice in extra nodes everywhere. The wiring and circuit protection has to accommodate the potential increased concurrent load. Realistically, this applies to the entire grid. You cannot suddenly power a significant amount of our transportation with the existing grie. The

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On May 14, 2015, at 10:47 AM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: dump pack Thinking this through a bit more...I'm not sure that it would make sense for a rapid-charging station to operate without a substantial dump pack of its own. Without one, you're left needing a grid connection

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
@lists.evdl.org To: EVDL Administrator evp...@drmm.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 14-May-15 9:21:47 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. Er...no. Indeed, I think you just proved my point. 60kW is over half again as much as you get at the meter

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On May 14, 2015, at 6:35 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 13 May 2015 at 10:58, Ben Goren via EV wrote: 15 kWh / 15 minutes is 60 kilowatts...not quite the level of insanity of a megawatt, but still in a range far beyond what you'd ever see in a residential

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Paul Dove via EV
To: Russ Sciville rustyb...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Thursday, 14 May 2015, 12:41 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. I think you all are mistaken. You are using gas. Maybe not much .3 of a gallon like the guy said in the forum but then it doesn't take much gas to go 15 miles. Those

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
On 14 May 2015 at 9:21, Ben Goren via EV wrote: How many people living in McMansions are going to be happy shutting down basically everything, especially all the air conditioning and pool equipment they paid so much extra to get the 400A service for in the first place, every time they want to

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Lee Hart via EV
Ben Goren via EV wrote: Thinking this through a bit more...I'm not sure that it would make sense for a rapid-charging station to operate without a substantial dump pack of its own. That is correct. I worked for a company that made high power chargers, mainly for commercial/industrial users.

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Willie2 via EV
On 05/14/2015 11:21 AM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: Worse...I don't think I've ever seen anything bigger than a 220V / 50A breaker in a residential panel -- though, granted, I'm certainly not an electrician. That's 11 kW. You're going to need half a dozen of those, 70-80 amp breakers are fairly

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Paul Dove via EV
I would think they would run power beside or under the road and run inductively Sent from my iPhone On May 14, 2015, at 1:21 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On May 14, 2015, at 10:47 AM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: dump pack Thinking this through a bit

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread John Lussmyer via EV
On 05/14/2015 11:21 AM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: Worse...I don't think I've ever seen anything bigger than a 220V / 50A breaker in a residential panel -- though, granted, I'm certainly not an electrician. That's 11 kW. You're going to need half a dozen of those, I have a 60A breaker so my

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Jim Walls via EV
On 5/14/2015 11:21 AM, Ben Goren via EV wrote (in part): No way is that station going to have a 20 MW feed from the grid...that's about 5% - 20% of the output of a utility-scale generating unit. And even the utilities themselves would have problems running such a facility because of the

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Jay Summet via EV
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I have a low range S-10 pickup conversion with lead acid batteries. (I limit it to 20 miles a charge with new batteries, and after a year or two the usable range is closer to 15 miles.) It's also relatively inefficient, especially for the stop and go

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-14 Thread Russ Sciville via EV
@lists.evdl.org; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.   Volt/Ampera's regularly do more than 50 miles on their 10.4kWh battery packs and that includes dragging round a backup four cylinder engine

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Mike Nickerson via EV
It is actually 14.4 kWh from 110V/12A. Most people have 15A circuits and shouldn't draw more than 12A. When I first got my Tesla, I was charging on 110V and having some trouble keeping up. My normal commute is 50 miles round trip, plus side trips. The Tesla has about 250-300 wh per mile.

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Jamie K via EV
The assumption of what nearly everyone needs in a day is based on averages, right? Averages are built from data ranging from minimums to maximums. But real range needs are based on maximums. So it would be erroneous to assume that averages define the actual range needs of most people.

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Jamie K via EV
Good points about the importance of low weight and improved CD, Lawrence. If the Tesla Model 3 can be more efficient than the Model S, that would help get the price down from Model S levels while still maintaining their desired range. Carrying fewer batteries would help further with the

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread paul dove via EV
@lists.evdl.org; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 2:16 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. Yes, needs a gentle foot but often achieved. Checkout SpeakEV forum in the Volt/Ampera section.I've achieved 48 miles which includes

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 4:00 PM To: Jamie K; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. On May 13, 2015, at 12:44 PM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: But real range needs are based on maximums. I'd agree with that. And I hope I'm not coming

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Jamie K via EV
Charging associated with hotels seems like a good idea for road trips. For day-to-day local use, do you primarily drive an EV where you use L1 charging at home or are you talking theoretically? I'm coming from a perspective of practical experience with an electric car as our main vehicle.

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread paul dove via EV
@lists.evdl.org; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. Volt/Ampera's regularly do more than 50 miles on their 10.4kWh battery packs and that includes dragging round a backup four cylinder engine

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On May 13, 2015, at 11:51 AM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Ben, on the subject of L1 chargers being good enough for nearly everybody and L2 being overkill, I would ask based on what data? Sorry...I had in mind overnight home charging, with the assumption that the 20 kWh you get

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On May 13, 2015, at 12:44 PM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: But real range needs are based on maximums. I'd agree with that. And I hope I'm not coming across as suggesting that in-home L1 charging is the only way that an EV would ever be charged. My point is that most people don't

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Lawrence Harris via EV
The normal verbiage used is average and you are correct (I think) in pointing out that if a BEV is to be your only vehicle you might want to look at average plus 2 standard deviations which would cover 95% of your travels and leave only 5% needing to use public transit or a rental vehicle. In

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Russ Sciville via EV
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. Are you sure about that number?  That would be equivalent to the Leaf regularly getting about 120 miles on a charge.  Probably possible on a flat road, no stops, at 40mph but not possible for regular driving. Peri -- Original Message

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On May 13, 2015, at 1:44 PM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I'm coming from a perspective of practical experience with an electric car as our main vehicle. The big factor you left out is daily driving mileage. If you're putting 80 miles a day on the car, yes, L1 is probably

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
To: Paul Dove dov...@bellsouth.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 13-May-15 9:05:34 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. Volt/Ampera's regularly do more than 50 miles on their 10.4kWh battery packs

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Paul Dove via EV
The I-MiEV already is energy efficient. It travels 60 miles on a 16kw battery and charges in 30 min on chase mo. Sent from my iPhone On May 13, 2015, at 10:37 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I've now heard all the talk about 5 minute quick charging batteries and the 1

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Russ Sciville via EV
, 16:59 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. The I-MiEV already is energy efficient. It travels 60 miles on a 16kw battery and charges in 30 min on chase mo. Sent from my iPhone On May 13, 2015, at 10:37 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I've now heard all

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Haudy Kazemi via EV
The Leaf is not always 250 Wh/mile (4 mi/kWh). It can be under comfortable weather and clean roads, but in deep cold, or slushy highways, with the resistance heat on, even with smooth driving, it can exceed 350 Wh/mile (2.9 mi/kWh). Aggressive high speed driving in rainy conditions with the heat

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Jamie K via EV
All I can tell you is that from our experience, L2 is not rapid charging, it's normal charging. Whereas when you have somewhere to go soon, L1 is punishment charging. There are places where L1 works well, for example at an airport where the car is going to sit for days. And no doubt there

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Jamie K via EV
Small, light, efficient, yes. Bring 'em on! We also live in a small town, but it's in the middle of a large metro area. Not surprisingly, with that and other considerations our driving needs are different. We couldn't make a go of it here with just L1 and the LEAF. But with home 6.6kW L2

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Jamie K via EV
So I take it you aren't driving an electric car and using L1 at home to do all or most of your driving? For us it isn't hypothetical or theoretical. And for anyone, please be clear that a typical day is not a relevant metric for range requirements. It's the outliers that you have to

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On May 13, 2015, at 5:57 PM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: It's the outliers that you have to accommodate. Yes, but not necessarily with rapid charging. When 200-mile ranges become the norm, as is promised soon -- say, a 40 kWh (usable) battery in a (conservative) 200 Wh / mile car

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Lee Hart via EV
Ben Goren via EV wrote: Most EV charging can and should reasonably be expected to be done while the vehicle is parked, especially overnight at home. L1 chargers are today and always will be good enough for that for nearly everybody... L2 is pretty much guaranteed overkill This describes my

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Lee Hart via EV
Jamie K via EV wrote: All I can tell you is that from our experience, L2 is not rapid charging, it's normal charging. Whereas when you have somewhere to go soon, L1 is punishment charging. This is the problem that Lawrence Rhodes pointed out. If you build EVs just like big heavy power-hungry

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Lee Hart via EV
Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote: I've now heard all the talk about 5 minute quick charging batteries and the 1 megawatt per car requirement. It's time to stop the madness. As much as I love Tesla all their models are big energy pigs. 85KW! Yes much better than a gas car of any size but when there

[EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Lawrence Rhodes via EV
I've now heard all the talk about 5 minute quick charging batteries and the 1 megawatt per car requirement.  It's time to stop the madness.  As much as I love Tesla all their models are big energy pigs.  85KW!  Yes much better than a gas car of any size but when there are vehicles that can go

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Willie2 via EV
On 05/13/2015 10:37 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote: I've now heard all the talk about 5 minute quick charging batteries and the 1 megawatt per car requirement. It's time to stop the madness. As much as I love Tesla all their models are big energy pigs. 85KW! Yes much better than a Tesla

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On May 13, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: So I think the engineers need to put their thinking caps on, reduce the weight of every vehicle, make the CD of all new vehicles .16 or so and stop making these energy hogs. That's definitely where a good deal of

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. 

2015-05-13 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
: 13-May-15 9:23:37 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. The iMev is not efficient. Stella goes 375 miles on the same 16kw pack. 55wh per mile is much better than 250 which is what all the steel evs get. Lawrence Rhodes -- next part -- An HTML attachment

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. 

2015-05-13 Thread Lawrence Rhodes via EV
The iMev is not efficient.  Stella goes 375 miles on the same 16kw pack.  55wh per mile is much better than 250 which is what all the steel evs get.  Lawrence Rhodes -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL:

Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.

2015-05-13 Thread Cor van de Water via EV
: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. The assumption of what nearly everyone needs in a day is based on averages, right? Averages are built from data ranging from minimums to maximums. But real range needs are based on maximums. So it would be erroneous to assume that averages define