Re: [EVDL] Watt-Hr Motorcycle Efficiency...

[Sean Korb via EV]

Aerodynamics come into play at higher speeds but at low speeds it's not as
important.

I had fun playing with this tool

http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculate%20HP%20For%20Speed.php

I plugged in some street speeds and frontal area makes a really big
difference over 40MPH.

sean


On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 3:23 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 12 Nov 2015 at 11:59, Ing. Marco Antonio Gaxiola via EV wrote:
>
> > Considering the rule of EVs efficiency of 250Watt-hr per mile on a 2500
> lbs
> > compact car,  May it apply same in order to calculate the energy
> efficiency of
> > a prototype motorcycle?
>
> Maybe, but remember that a  bike's aerodynamic qualities are significantly
> worse than a car's.  This is because the bike's rider adds quite a bit of
> wind resistance.
>
> Another (possibly better) way to estimate the EV bike's energy efficiency
> might be to look at a similar ICE bike's fuel efficiency.
>
> Taking the efficiency difference into account, an 8kWh lithium battery,
> fully discharged, provides about the same range as a gallon of gasoline.
> So
> if your car got 35mpg as an ICEV, it should get around 230Wh/mi as an EV.
> If your motorcycle got 100mpg as an ICEV, it should use around 80 Wh/mi as
> an EV.
>
> Another way is to check the EV Album for similar vehicles.  For example:
>
> http://evalbum.com/5125
>
> This is a 450lb conversion bike with an 84v, 30ah (2520Wh) LiFePO4 battery.
> The range is listed as 40mi, so that's 63 Wh/mi.
>
> Or this one:
>
> http://evalbum.com/5128
>
> This has a 768Wh battery and a range of 15 miles for an energy usage of
> 51.2
> Wh/mi.  However, the top speed is only 35mph, so the bikes' relatively poor
> aerodynamics may not play a very large role here.
>
> This bike can do 60mph:
>
> http://evalbum.com/5114
>
> Even though it weighs only 176lb, it has a 3990 (!) Wh battery and a range
> of 50 miles, which works out to about 80 Wh/mi.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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>


-- 
Sean Korb spk...@spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
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Re: [EVDL] Watt-Hr Motorcycle Efficiency...

[harry henderson via EV]

my bike gets about 200 watt per mile

harry Albuquerque, NM current bike:  http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179 
current non-bike: http://evalbum.com/1000


On Thu, 11/12/15, EVDL Administrator via EV  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Watt-Hr Motorcycle Efficiency...
 To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
 Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015, 1:23 PM
 
 On 12 Nov 2015 at 11:59,
 Ing. Marco Antonio Gaxiola via EV wrote:
 
 > Considering the rule of EVs efficiency of
 250Watt-hr per mile on a 2500 lbs
 >
 compact car,  May it apply same in order to calculate the
 energy efficiency of
 > a prototype
 motorcycle?
 
 Maybe, but
 remember that a  bike's aerodynamic qualities are
 significantly 
 worse than a car's. 
 This is because the bike's rider adds quite a bit of 
 wind resistance.
 
 Another (possibly better) way to estimate the
 EV bike's energy efficiency 
 might be to
 look at a similar ICE bike's fuel efficiency.  
 
 Taking the efficiency
 difference into account, an 8kWh lithium battery, 
 fully discharged, provides about the same range
 as a gallon of gasoline.  So 
 if your car
 got 35mpg as an ICEV, it should get around 230Wh/mi as an
 EV.  
 If your motorcycle got 100mpg as an
 ICEV, it should use around 80 Wh/mi as 
 an
 EV.
 
 Another way is to check
 the EV Album for similar vehicles.  For example:
 
 http://evalbum.com/5125
 
 This is a 450lb conversion
 bike with an 84v, 30ah (2520Wh) LiFePO4 battery. 
 The range is listed as 40mi, so that's 63
 Wh/mi.
 
 Or this one:
 
 http://evalbum.com/5128
 
 This has a 768Wh battery and a
 range of 15 miles for an energy usage of 51.2 
 Wh/mi.  However, the top speed is only 35mph,
 so the bikes' relatively poor 
 aerodynamics may not play a very large role
 here.
 
 This bike can do
 60mph:
 
 http://evalbum.com/5114
 
 Even though it weighs only
 176lb, it has a 3990 (!) Wh battery and a range 
 of 50 miles, which works out to about 80
 Wh/mi.  
 
 David Roden -
 Akron, Ohio, USA
 EVDL Administrator
 
 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
 = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
 EVDL
 Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
 = = = = = 
 Note: mail sent to
 "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
 
 reach me.  To send a private message,
 please obtain my 
 email address from the
 webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
 = = =
 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
 
 
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Re: [EVDL] Watt-Hr Motorcycle Efficiency...

[Alan Arrison via EV]

50Wh per mile is way too optimistic.
A Zero SR, which is a state of the art bike, lists a nominal battery 
capacity of 11.4kWh.
Range on the highway at 55mph is listed as 98 miles. This gives 116Wh 
per mile.


Al

On 11/12/2015 1:59 PM, Ing. Marco Antonio Gaxiola via EV wrote:
  


Considering the rule of EVs efficiency of 250Watt-hr per mile on a 2500 lbs
compact car,  May it apply same in order to calculate the energy efficiency
of a prototype motorcycle?. Please help me / correct me to do the closer
approximations:

  


 Motorcycle total weight (already electric): 500 lbs

  


 That would be aprox 50Watt-hr per mile?

  


 So, having a 48V - 100Ah pack = 4,800Watt-hr pack installed
on that Motorcycle within that weight, it could have an expected range of
(4,800 / 50 ) 96 miles?

  



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Re: [EVDL] Watt-Hr Motorcycle Efficiency...

[Michael Ross via EV]

For efficiency pasta, beans and greens are the best fuel:

200m flying start 83.13mph
1 mile flying start 78.64
1000km 26.98
1 hour single rider 56.29
6 hour single rider 38.88.mph
24 hour single rider 26.96 (distance 1041km)
multi rider 1 hour  74.51 mph

http://www.ihpva.org/hpvarec3.htm#nom30



On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Willie2 via EV  wrote:

> On 11/12/2015 02:23 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>
>>
>> Another (possibly better) way to estimate the EV bike's energy efficiency
>> might be to look at a similar ICE bike's fuel efficiency.
>>
> I used to ride a 750cc bike.  At ~80 mph, fuel consumption was 25-30 mpg.
> At ~50 mph, it could go as high as 50 mpg.  Barely better than a small car.
>
> Much smaller bikes could approach 100mpg but that was mainly due to
> limited speeds.
>
>
>
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>


-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Google Phone
(919) 600-2892 Cell

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] Watt-Hr Motorcycle Efficiency...

[Willie2 via EV]

On 11/12/2015 02:23 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:


Another (possibly better) way to estimate the EV bike's energy efficiency
might be to look at a similar ICE bike's fuel efficiency.
I used to ride a 750cc bike.  At ~80 mph, fuel consumption was 25-30 
mpg.  At ~50 mph, it could go as high as 50 mpg.  Barely better than a 
small car.


Much smaller bikes could approach 100mpg but that was mainly due to 
limited speeds.



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Re: [EVDL] Watt-Hr Motorcycle Efficiency...

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 12 Nov 2015 at 11:59, Ing. Marco Antonio Gaxiola via EV wrote:

> Considering the rule of EVs efficiency of 250Watt-hr per mile on a 2500 lbs
> compact car,  May it apply same in order to calculate the energy efficiency of
> a prototype motorcycle?

Maybe, but remember that a  bike's aerodynamic qualities are significantly 
worse than a car's.  This is because the bike's rider adds quite a bit of 
wind resistance.

Another (possibly better) way to estimate the EV bike's energy efficiency 
might be to look at a similar ICE bike's fuel efficiency.  

Taking the efficiency difference into account, an 8kWh lithium battery, 
fully discharged, provides about the same range as a gallon of gasoline.  So 
if your car got 35mpg as an ICEV, it should get around 230Wh/mi as an EV.  
If your motorcycle got 100mpg as an ICEV, it should use around 80 Wh/mi as 
an EV.

Another way is to check the EV Album for similar vehicles.  For example:

http://evalbum.com/5125

This is a 450lb conversion bike with an 84v, 30ah (2520Wh) LiFePO4 battery. 
The range is listed as 40mi, so that's 63 Wh/mi.

Or this one:

http://evalbum.com/5128

This has a 768Wh battery and a range of 15 miles for an energy usage of 51.2 
Wh/mi.  However, the top speed is only 35mph, so the bikes' relatively poor 
aerodynamics may not play a very large role here.

This bike can do 60mph:

http://evalbum.com/5114

Even though it weighs only 176lb, it has a 3990 (!) Wh battery and a range 
of 50 miles, which works out to about 80 Wh/mi.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] Watt-Hr Motorcycle Efficiency...

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 Hi Marko and All,  2 things you missed.  One is MC tires are very high 
drag, 4x EV low rolling resistance tires and MC air drag is really bad, 2-3x's 
most cars.   And why bigger MC's  that drive 45-80mpg get less mpg than 
some cars.    Jerry dycus
 
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: "Ing. Marco Antonio Gaxiola via EV"  Date: 
11/12/2015  12:59 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] Watt-Hr 
Motorcycle Efficiency... 
 

Considering the rule of EVs efficiency of 250Watt-hr per mile on a 2500 lbs
compact car,  May it apply same in order to calculate the energy efficiency
of a prototype motorcycle?. Please help me / correct me to do the closer
approximations:

 

    Motorcycle total weight (already electric): 500 lbs

 

    That would be aprox 50Watt-hr per mile?

 

    So, having a 48V - 100Ah pack = 4,800Watt-hr pack installed
on that Motorcycle within that weight, it could have an expected range of
(4,800 / 50 ) 96 miles?

 

 

Marco Gaxiola

Energy EV

 

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Re: [EVDL] Watt-Hr Motorcycle Efficiency...

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Nov 12, 2015, at 11:59 AM, Ing. Marco Antonio Gaxiola via EV 
 wrote:

> Considering the rule of EVs efficiency of 250Watt-hr per mile on a 2500 lbs
> compact car,  May it apply same in order to calculate the energy efficiency
> of a prototype motorcycle?

We had this discussion a little while back. Motorcycles, as it turns out, have 
pretty miserable aerodynamics.

Your best bet for this sort of back-of-the-envelope sort of estimation would be 
to use ICE efficiency as a proxy. If you start with a car that gets about 30 
MPG and do an electric conversion and get a BEV that does 3 miles per kWh, you 
can figure that, if you start with a motorcycle that gets about 30 MPG...after 
electric conversion, it, too, will also do about 3 miles per kWh. (Pulling 
numbers out of my...ear...to illustrate the principle. I'm certain that's not 
the actual resulting relative efficiencies, but it shouldn't be *too* far off.)

There's lots you can do to improve the aerodynamics of a motorcycle, with a 
simple front fairing being the best bang for the buck. The ultimate expression 
of that would be the velomobile, a fully-faired recumbent bicycle that can 
cruise at freeway speeds with about the power consumption of an hairdryer. As 
in, champion cyclists can do it unassisted, at least for a little while...and 
weekend warriors can do it indefinitely with a single-kilowatt electric assist. 
To make math easy, figure 1500 W for 60 MPH, which gives you 40 miles per kWh 
or 0.025 kWh/mile.

Cheers,

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Watt-Hr Motorcycle Efficiency...

[dovepa via EV]

You would need to include the driver.
On a car the difference between 2500 and 2700 is not as significant as 500 and 
700. However I have not converted a motorcycle so I am not even sure the rule 
of thumb applies


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: "Ing. Marco Antonio Gaxiola via EV"  Date: 
11/12/2015  12:59 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] Watt-Hr 
Motorcycle Efficiency... 
 

Considering the rule of EVs efficiency of 250Watt-hr per mile on a 2500 lbs
compact car,  May it apply same in order to calculate the energy efficiency
of a prototype motorcycle?. Please help me / correct me to do the closer
approximations:

 

    Motorcycle total weight (already electric): 500 lbs

 

    That would be aprox 50Watt-hr per mile?

 

    So, having a 48V - 100Ah pack = 4,800Watt-hr pack installed
on that Motorcycle within that weight, it could have an expected range of
(4,800 / 50 ) 96 miles?

 

 

Marco Gaxiola

Energy EV

 

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[EVDL] Watt-Hr Motorcycle Efficiency...

[Ing. Marco Antonio Gaxiola via EV]

 

Considering the rule of EVs efficiency of 250Watt-hr per mile on a 2500 lbs
compact car,  May it apply same in order to calculate the energy efficiency
of a prototype motorcycle?. Please help me / correct me to do the closer
approximations:

 

Motorcycle total weight (already electric): 500 lbs

 

That would be aprox 50Watt-hr per mile?

 

So, having a 48V - 100Ah pack = 4,800Watt-hr pack installed
on that Motorcycle within that weight, it could have an expected range of
(4,800 / 50 ) 96 miles?

 

 

Marco Gaxiola

Energy EV

 

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