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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Using many small electric motors. (GWMobile)
2. Re: Using many small electric motors. (Jeff Shanab)
3. Re: EV technology for the rest of us ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
4. Re: Using many small electric motors. (Lee Hart)
5. Re: Using many small electric motors. (EVDL Administrator)
6. Re: Using many small electric motors. (Peter VanDerWal)
7. Re: Using many small electric motors. (Arak Leatham)
8. Re: Using many small electric motors. (Arak Leatham)
9. Small motors (JS)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:43:38 -0500
From: GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using many small electric motors.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"
Thanks for the replies guys.
>> SPECIFIC NUMBERS for analysis wanted.
> OK ya got them above.
Where ?
I am trying to get a decent idea of how many little motors and or small
batteries it would take to push along a trike at 30mph on level roads.
Did I miss the analysis?
>> SPECIFIC NUMBERS for analysis wanted.
>
> OK ya got them above.
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>>
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 09:58:40 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using many small electric motors.
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I think it is like making an omelet for two from quails eggs. The total
weight of these motors in relation to their output is high. The
overhead, shaft,bearings,case is a higher percentage of the motor as it
gets smaller.
But you could take an aggregate approach on the calculations. I could
look it up but lets say you need 2hp to go 30mph with the weight
vehicle you have planned.
1 hp = 746 watts so 1492 watts assuming 80% eff motors yields 1865
Watts
Assuming 12 volt toy motors that is 155Amps 10 motors at 15 A 12V?
pretty big!
what about electric scooter motors 36V? only 52Amps and they can handle
5A each so 10 of those might do the trick.
Maybe the best idea is just to go here http://www.surpluscenter.com/
and pick something like this
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007122211500874&catname=electric&item=10-2355
or a high voltage low amp A123 pack might go with something like this
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007122211500874&item=10-1751&catname=electric
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 10:07:00 -0800
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV technology for the rest of us
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes;
format=flowed
So then YOU go and be the one who makes it happen for all the rest of
us. Don't bitch, just make it happen. It WILL cost plenty but just
think, you get to be named the one who made it happen for the rest of
us. No RACING required.
: )
Pete
On Dec 22, 2007, at 6:50 AM, Michaela Merz wrote:
> Since heat and a/c (or even regen)
> are not part of the forklift or golf cart supply chain, it's just not
> available. And no amount of racing is going to change that.
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:23:52 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using many small electric motors.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
GWMobile wrote:
> Has anyone taken the approach of using many small electric motors to
> build an electric vehicle?
>
> By MANY I mean MANY.
>
> Not 2 or three.
>
> Like say 10 to 50 per wheel.
Interesting approach. I suppose it all depends on exactly what kind of
small motors you used.
All things being equal; the bigger a motor, the cheaper it is per
horsepower, and the higher its efficiency. But all things rarely are
equal; there are so many differences in the specifics that this is hard
to apply -- a well-made small motor can beat a badly-made big one.
Most small motors are really cheaply and badly built. Low efficiency,
bad bearings, poor cooling -- they are built for things like toys or
gadgets that have a total life expectancy of only a matter of hours.
Such motors would be of no practical use.
But, there are some pretty good small motors. Some of the ones used by
R/C modellers have amazing power-to-weight ratios. There are some
precision servo motors with very high efficiency and reliability. If you
found a "deal" on a case of small high quality motors, your scheme might
work.
I corresponded with a fellow that was using six golf cart motors to
drive his pickup truck. He did it because he happened to have a pile of
golf cart parts surplus.
He made an adapter plate with six holes around the center to mount the
motors. Each motor had an identical gear. A large mating central gear
went on the transmission shaft. The six motor's bearings served to
position the central gear (since the transmission didn't have a front
bearing).
Last I heard, it did work. No comparative performance data, as it was
his first EV and just for "fooling around".
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 13:22:19 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using many small electric motors.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Just like an overgrown slot car - powered by Mabuchi! ;-)
I might look at using a handful of medium-sized motors rather than a
trunkful of tiny ones. What large appliances use universal (series) motors?
You want something that's typically discarded because something besides the
motor fails; that way you can scrounge at the landfill.
If you want a lower voltage drive, how about radiator fan motors from the
junkyard? At least one E-bike used a Ford fan motor.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:28:15 -0700 (MST)
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using many small electric motors.
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
It's hard to make an analysis without details to base it on.
As a swag, a small trike that is reasonably aerodynamic and light weight
can hit 30 mph with about 750 watts (motor output) so you need enough
whatever motors to equal about 700-800 watts.
You will need at least one battery. How many more yo need depends on how
much power the batteries can produce and how long (far) you want to go.
> Thanks for the replies guys.
>
>>> SPECIFIC NUMBERS for analysis wanted.
>> OK ya got them above.
>
> Where ?
> I am trying to get a decent idea of how many little motors and or small
> batteries it would take to push along a trike at 30mph on level roads.
> Did I miss the analysis?
>
>>> SPECIFIC NUMBERS for analysis wanted.
>>
>> OK ya got them above.
>>
>> Seeya
>>
>> Bob
>>>
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
> and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
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If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:08:50 -0700
From: Arak Leatham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using many small electric motors.
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Electric Vehicle Discussion List
<ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I haven't looked at the rest of the answers here so forgive me if I dupliacte
any.
I think the micro motors are going cost you too much in drive gears and other
hardware etc.
You may consider using hand tool motors. You can get some at your local 'Habor
Freight' store or other secondary outlet. At thrift shops you can find them
lacking the batteries etc.
Arak Leatham - Web and Desktop Systems Developer> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007
10:07:55 -0500> To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> CC: [EMAIL
PROTECTED]> Subject: [EVDL] Using many small electric motors.> > Has anyone
taken the approach of using many small electric motors to > build an electric
vehicle?> > By MANY I mean MANY.> > Not 2 or three.> > Like say 10 to 50 per
wheel.> > For example I have thought one way to start an electric vehicle
project > at low cost would be start a three wheeller with strong frame but
little > external covering (like the wrightspeed) and build a single gear >
flywheel or geared power wheelwith multiple attachments points around > the
perimeter gear for multiple motors so they could be added as > afforded or
scavenged.> > > Several reasons/advantages of this design philosophy are.> >
1.Cheaper to build in stages. You can have a rolling working vehicle > with one
or ten smaller motors andthen upgrade performance as you add !
> motors.> 2. Individually wired small moters with separate batteries means >
> batteries can be charged separatley using lower amp equipment and small >
> wires.> 3. More reliability - if one motor and or its battery burns out you
> have > 49 more.> 4. You can control all the motors with one control circuit
> and still > have amps for all circuits be low.> 5. All parts can be lower
> cost and purchased for normal mass production > sources for electronics
> (although there are more of them) because each > part takes lesss amps.> 6.
> as you ad motors you can add more shell weight to enclose vehicle > (because
> you built the frame strong to handle future expansion.)> 7. You can run a
> few motors at high rpms if you want to change power or > efficiency and then
> if you need more power use all the motors - on the > fly!> 8. Cooling many
> small motors might be easier than one large one.> 9. Most small dc motors
> are also generators so braking recapture is > easy.> > 10. I might be able
> to recharg!
e all batteries at once by designing a > system to spin the po!
wer whee
l on a jack with the drive motors all > connected thus recharging all
individual motor battery circuits at home > without having to explicitly design
a sequenced charger for each motor > battery circuit.> > Now I realize there
are many drawbacks so no one need to point them out > endlessly and make THAT
the primary subject of this thread. That's not > the reason I am doing this.
Incrementable building cost is the KEY issue > for me as I want SOME kind of
electic vehicle that will run - even if > poorly- from day one until I can add
capacity.> > ONE question I am trying to work out is how many toy motors would
it > take to allow a framed trike to run at 30 mph on level flat surface >
streets.> Who can chime in one that?> > I want a three wheeler on the road I
can build in the backyard. This for > me is the only realistic way to do it for
a number of reasons too > numerous to go into.> > I just wondered if anyone has
tried this approach.> > It is basically what the new tesla d!
id with batteries for their supercar > (hundreds of tiny mass market
batteries) except I want to do it with > batteries AND motors.> > Also I have
been trying to compute the power to weight ratio and > efficiency of say 100
toy electric motors compared to one big car > electric motor.> > Anyone want to
help firgure it out?> > I am thinking 10 to 50 toy electric motors per power
wheel depending on > which motors turn out to be best
cost/power/weight/efficiency ratio. > Eventually all three wheels could be
power wheels allowing all kinds of > special control of course but initially
just one.> > The goal is to get it rolling not perfection! Don't waste time
telling > me how it won't be perfect!> > PLEASE waste time with calculations of
how many motors it might take or > any websites you find that have motors that
might useful.> > My goal would be cheapest incremental cost at first and not
performance > but of course that could change as I build it adding higher
performance > m!
otors later. That is the whole beauty of the design philosophy!
. I can
> add groups of motors and batteries for increased performance literally > $20
> at a time.> > The thing is while even surplus big ev motors rarely sell for
> super > cheap prices there are OFTEN huge over runs on mass market toy
> electric > motors with incredible discounts -sometimes boxes of hundreds of
> motors > for $20 bucks etc. We are talking pennies a motor sometimes.> > And
> while I neverdue to lack of experince build a huge amp system - I > have NO
> problem wiring 50 small motors with one rechargable battery each > and one
> cheap variable control each and one mini plug each for > recharging and
> mechanically linking all 50 variable controls to one > handle so I can
> control all motors at once. And there is no > electrocution dangers.> > Or
> controlling each with a transisitor and wiring all the transistors >
> together. I could even control them with a light system with a whole > bunch
> of ir tuned receivers leds on each motor circuit all responding > from the
> vairable output of o!
ne ir led all enclosed in a > box.(possibilites are endless)> > I have been
trying to get reliable small motor power info on the cheaper > toy motors but
it is hard to find. Anyone who finds that info please > post!> > Some of the
more expensive electric rc airplane and car motors have > incredible power to
weight ratios but they tend to be more expensive.> > I just want a good price
and power numbers for analysis.> > Thoughts and> > SPECIFIC NUMBERS for
analysis wanted.> > Www.Ikickgas.com> > > www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily
images about hurricanes, globalwarming > and the melting poles.> >
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.> >
_______________________________________________> For subscription options, see>
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------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:26:37 -0700
From: Arak Leatham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using many small electric motors.
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Electric Vehicle Discussion List
<ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
You have not made enough chioces to make an analysis. How heavy will your
vehicle be? How strong? what load capacity? You need a design before you know
all that.
You also need to pick out a motor that you can that many of, and figure out the
torque and power output. You also must check the weight. We don't know what you
have a vailable to you, that you would want.
The little ones are less efficient than larger motors, so it is just possible
to not get what you want from that size of motor. To make up for it you would
need to get high efficiency motors, and these will cost you more than the same
power from a larger motor. For the price of 500, $3 motors, you can get a very
nice $1500 motor.
It is better to save your money up and buy your pieces when you can, rather
than dedicate your project to buying something each and every paycheck.
Personally, I have the same problem. I am now trying to design the cheepest
design for my choice of specs that I can. I'm also limited by the tools I have,
can afford and have the room for. It is much cheeper than my Taddy at
www.detalidon.com
When I get it done, I'll post it in images and add it to my website. errr, When
I get the silly website done, the new pages I mean.
Arak Leatham - Web and Desktop Systems Developer> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007
12:43:38 -0500> To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> CC: [EMAIL
PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using many small electric motors.> > Thanks for
the replies guys.> > >> SPECIFIC NUMBERS for analysis wanted.> > OK ya got them
above.> > Where ?> I am trying to get a decent idea of how many little motors
and or small > batteries it would take to push along a trike at 30mph on level
roads.> Did I miss the analysis?> > >> SPECIFIC NUMBERS for analysis wanted.>
>> > OK ya got them above.> >> > Seeya> >> > Bob> >>> > www.GlobalBoiling.com
for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming > and the melting poles.> >
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.> >
_______________________________________________> For subscription options, see>
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_________________________________________________________________
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!
http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:37:12 -0800
From: JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Small motors
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
A neighbor threw out a 'cheap DP brand' treadmill.
I resurrected the 1.5 HP GE motor and electronic
speed control.
Treadmills are usually small, and compact. They
usually have an electronic speed control.
Disclaimer: I sold bicycles, electric bicycles, and
treadmills for 22 years. Retired since 9/01/2001.
John in Sylmar, CA
Driving about 50 miles on a full day of sunshine!
------------------------------
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End of EV Digest, Vol 5, Issue 70
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