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Today's Topics:
1. AC Motor/VFD/360 volt battery stack (Paul)
2. Re: Sunrise vs Volt, Re; Volt Frustrated???? (Keith)
3. Convert an automatic FWD car? (Eduardo Kaftanski)
4. Re: AC Motor/VFD/360 volt battery stack (Rod Hower)
5. Re: AC Motor/VFD/360 volt battery stack (Dan Frederiksen)
6. Re: AC Motor/VFD/360 volt battery stack ((-Phil-))
7. Re: Convert an automatic FWD car? ((-Phil-))
8. Re: AC Motor/VFD/360 volt battery stack ((-Phil-))
9. Re: AC Motor/VFD/360 volt battery stack ((-Phil-))
10. Re: AC Motor/VFD/360 volt battery stack (Ben)
11. taking care of batteries (Brian Staffanson)
12. Re: Sunrise vs Volt, Re; Volt Frustrated???? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
13. EV Conversion Financing (Todd Martin)
14. Re: Sunrise vs Volt, Re; Volt Frustrated???? (Morgan LaMoore)
15. Re: Sunrise vs Volt, Re; Volt Frustrated???? (Dan Frederiksen)
16. Motor direction (Dan Frederiksen)
17. Re: AC Motor/VFD/360 volt battery stack (Jeff Major)
18. Re: Convert an automatic FWD car? (Roland Wiench)
19. Re: EV Conversion Financing (Bob Rice)
20. Nanosolar panels and ev's (Aliza)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:46:13 -0500
From: Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] AC Motor/VFD/360 volt battery stack
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Forgive me if this has been discussed in the past, but why can't I ....
1. Use a 30 HP 240 VAC induction motor [1].
2. Use a Variable Frequency AC Drive (VFD) e.g. the Hitachi L300P-220LFU2 [2]
3. Series thirty 12 volt batteries to produce 360 VDC
4. Feed the DC bus on the VFD from the 360 VDC battery stack
Motor $470
VFD $1600
Batteries $1500-$3000
Will this work? Will charging 30 batteries in series be a problem? Should I
use 48 volt stacks?
Again, forgive me if this has already been discussed, but I have not been able
to locate much information on this approach. If I understand the theory, this
should charge the batteries during regen braking.
I've used smaller Hitachi VFDs (1 and 2 HP) in the past. Nice units, already
set up to receive analog signal for the speed, have start/stop inputs and
programmable torque curves and torque boost.
Thanks!
Paul, BSEE, LCOD*
*Loose Cannon on Deck
[1]
Voltage 230/460 AC; Amps 70/35; RPM 3525; Shaft 1 5/8" diam. x 3 1/4" w/keyway
Size 22 1/2" x 20" x 14 1/2"; shpg. 440 lbs. $469.95
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007113005142041&item=10-1767&catname=
[2]
http://www.driveswarehouse.com/c-149-drives.aspx?categories_id=149&Horsepower=30.00&IVoltage=8&x=24&y=9
Height 15.4 inches (390 mm)
Width 9.8 inches (250 mm)
Depth 7.8 inches (198.5 mm)
Weight (lbs) 26.4
$1597
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:03:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Keith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sunrise vs Volt, Re; Volt Frustrated????
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
This is how the sunrise was built in fact the molds are still available if
someone wants to donate
$250,000.00 we all could have a lightweight composite body-frame system
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 30, 2007, at 7:28 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I recently saw an episode of some since show where someone had come up with
a automated method of laying fiberglas or carbon then pressing it into the
correct shape.
It they wanted to do it they would figure out how to automate it.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 10:58 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sunrise vs Volt, Re; Volt Frustrated????
Glenn wrote:
I agree that car makers should look into composites.
I think they did:
http://www.scaled.com/projects/gmcar.html
How to build that on an automated assembly line? I think Corvette
bodies are still somewhat hand built(chopper gun?)?
Automation options?
http://www.factoryfive.com/company/tour/manuf/images/12.jpg
It's hard to beat the ease and speed of assembly of stamped, spot welded
steel.
_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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____________________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:06:00 -0300
From: Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Convert an automatic FWD car?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
My first conversion is still not ready (waiting for the machine shop) and
I am planning the second.... I need input.
My daily driver's engine is failing. Its a 1996 Citroen Xantia, automatic.
The engine is a 115HP 2.0 and the transmission is a 4 speed non-electronic
auto (ZF4HP14). Car weights around 2500lbs.
I plan on putting in a Warp9 or bigger motor, a 1k zilla and 144v of
12v deep cycle lead acid batts. I dont need more than 20 miles of range.
Am I too crazy?
--
Eduardo K. |
http://www.carfun.cl | I'm white and nerdy
http://ev.nn.cl | Weird Al
|
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:08:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AC Motor/VFD/360 volt battery stack
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Bob Gruenwald did this with Yasgawa drives,
http://home.cinci.rr.com/emsdir/emsdir/products.htm
Or go to www.fluxvector.com
Several of the Formula Lighting cars used his drives,
http://www.nd.edu/~ndracing/others/others.html
I haven't seen him on this list lately, but I assume
he's still in business.
Rod
--- Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Forgive me if this has been discussed in the past,
> but why can't I ....
>
> 1. Use a 30 HP 240 VAC induction motor [1].
> 2. Use a Variable Frequency AC Drive (VFD) e.g. the
> Hitachi L300P-220LFU2 [2]
> 3. Series thirty 12 volt batteries to produce 360
> VDC
> 4. Feed the DC bus on the VFD from the 360 VDC
> battery stack
>
> Motor $470
> VFD $1600
> Batteries $1500-$3000
>
> Will this work? Will charging 30 batteries in
> series be a problem? Should I
> use 48 volt stacks?
>
> Again, forgive me if this has already been
> discussed, but I have not been able
> to locate much information on this approach. If I
> understand the theory, this
> should charge the batteries during regen braking.
>
> I've used smaller Hitachi VFDs (1 and 2 HP) in the
> past. Nice units, already
> set up to receive analog signal for the speed, have
> start/stop inputs and
> programmable torque curves and torque boost.
>
> Thanks!
> Paul, BSEE, LCOD*
>
> *Loose Cannon on Deck
>
> [1]
> Voltage 230/460 AC; Amps 70/35; RPM 3525; Shaft 1
> 5/8" diam. x 3 1/4" w/keyway
> Size 22 1/2" x 20" x 14 1/2"; shpg. 440 lbs.
> $469.95
>
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007113005142041&item=10-1767&catname=
>
>
> [2]
>
http://www.driveswarehouse.com/c-149-drives.aspx?categories_id=149&Horsepower=30.00&IVoltage=8&x=24&y=9
> Height 15.4 inches (390 mm)
> Width 9.8 inches (250 mm)
> Depth 7.8 inches (198.5 mm)
> Weight (lbs) 26.4
> $1597
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:11:49 +0100
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AC Motor/VFD/360 volt battery stack
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
I didn't look at the VFD but it looked good to me until I got to the
weight of the motor : )
200kg is a lot. doable but a lot. the tesla roadster motor weighs 35kg
or so iirc. you could probably drive a funny car with that motor :)
Dan
Paul wrote:
> Forgive me if this has been discussed in the past, but why can't I ....
>
> 1. Use a 30 HP 240 VAC induction motor [1].
> 2. Use a Variable Frequency AC Drive (VFD) e.g. the Hitachi L300P-220LFU2 [2]
> 3. Series thirty 12 volt batteries to produce 360 VDC
> 4. Feed the DC bus on the VFD from the 360 VDC battery stack
>
> Motor $470
> VFD $1600
> Batteries $1500-$3000
>
> Will this work? Will charging 30 batteries in series be a problem? Should I
> use 48 volt stacks?
>
> Again, forgive me if this has already been discussed, but I have not been
> able
> to locate much information on this approach. If I understand the theory, this
> should charge the batteries during regen braking.
>
> I've used smaller Hitachi VFDs (1 and 2 HP) in the past. Nice units, already
> set up to receive analog signal for the speed, have start/stop inputs and
> programmable torque curves and torque boost.
>
> Thanks!
> Paul, BSEE, LCOD*
>
> *Loose Cannon on Deck
>
> [1]
> Voltage 230/460 AC; Amps 70/35; RPM 3525; Shaft 1 5/8" diam. x 3 1/4"
> w/keyway
> Size 22 1/2" x 20" x 14 1/2"; shpg. 440 lbs. $469.95
> http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007113005142041&item=10-1767&catname=
>
>
> [2]
> http://www.driveswarehouse.com/c-149-drives.aspx?categories_id=149&Horsepower=30.00&IVoltage=8&x=24&y=9
> Height 15.4 inches (390 mm)
> Width 9.8 inches (250 mm)
> Depth 7.8 inches (198.5 mm)
> Weight (lbs) 26.4
> $1597
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:16:46 -0800
From: "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AC Motor/VFD/360 volt battery stack
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
This can be done, but keep in mind your peak power will be limited by the
VFD. High power VFDs are usually very bulky and not cheap, but if you have
a line on a surplus one, it could be done.
Also, a 30hp industrial motor is going to be large and VERY heavy. They are
typically non-optimized for weight.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:46 AM
Subject: [EVDL] AC Motor/VFD/360 volt battery stack
> Forgive me if this has been discussed in the past, but why can't I ....
>
> 1. Use a 30 HP 240 VAC induction motor [1].
> 2. Use a Variable Frequency AC Drive (VFD) e.g. the Hitachi L300P-220LFU2
> [2]
> 3. Series thirty 12 volt batteries to produce 360 VDC
> 4. Feed the DC bus on the VFD from the 360 VDC battery stack
>
> Motor $470
> VFD $1600
> Batteries $1500-$3000
>
> Will this work? Will charging 30 batteries in series be a problem? Should
> I
> use 48 volt stacks?
>
> Again, forgive me if this has already been discussed, but I have not been
> able
> to locate much information on this approach. If I understand the theory,
> this
> should charge the batteries during regen braking.
>
> I've used smaller Hitachi VFDs (1 and 2 HP) in the past. Nice units,
> already
> set up to receive analog signal for the speed, have start/stop inputs and
> programmable torque curves and torque boost.
>
> Thanks!
> Paul, BSEE, LCOD*
>
> *Loose Cannon on Deck
>
> [1]
> Voltage 230/460 AC; Amps 70/35; RPM 3525; Shaft 1 5/8" diam. x 3 1/4"
> w/keyway
> Size 22 1/2" x 20" x 14 1/2"; shpg. 440 lbs. $469.95
> http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007113005142041&item=10-1767&catname=
>
>
> [2]
> http://www.driveswarehouse.com/c-149-drives.aspx?categories_id=149&Horsepower=30.00&IVoltage=8&x=24&y=9
> Height 15.4 inches (390 mm)
> Width 9.8 inches (250 mm)
> Depth 7.8 inches (198.5 mm)
> Weight (lbs) 26.4
> $1597
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:19:02 -0800
From: "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Convert an automatic FWD car?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Seems reasonable, except for the automatic. Can you find a manual at a
scrapyard?
Just out of curiosity, how is your engine failing, and how many Km's does it
have?
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eduardo Kaftanski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 9:06 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Convert an automatic FWD car?
>
> My first conversion is still not ready (waiting for the machine shop) and
> I am planning the second.... I need input.
>
> My daily driver's engine is failing. Its a 1996 Citroen Xantia, automatic.
> The engine is a 115HP 2.0 and the transmission is a 4 speed non-electronic
> auto (ZF4HP14). Car weights around 2500lbs.
>
> I plan on putting in a Warp9 or bigger motor, a 1k zilla and 144v of
> 12v deep cycle lead acid batts. I dont need more than 20 miles of range.
>
> Am I too crazy?
>
> --
> Eduardo K. |
> http://www.carfun.cl | I'm white and nerdy
> http://ev.nn.cl | Weird Al
> |
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:20:22 -0800
From: "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AC Motor/VFD/360 volt battery stack
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
The trick would be to find one of those surplus Ford Siemens motors that are
running around. Use the VFD to drive that.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AC Motor/VFD/360 volt battery stack
>I didn't look at the VFD but it looked good to me until I got to the
> weight of the motor : )
> 200kg is a lot. doable but a lot. the tesla roadster motor weighs 35kg
> or so iirc. you could probably drive a funny car with that motor :)
>
> Dan
>
>
> Paul wrote:
>> Forgive me if this has been discussed in the past, but why can't I ....
>>
>> 1. Use a 30 HP 240 VAC induction motor [1].
>> 2. Use a Variable Frequency AC Drive (VFD) e.g. the Hitachi L300P-220LFU2
>> [2]
>> 3. Series thirty 12 volt batteries to produce 360 VDC
>> 4. Feed the DC bus on the VFD from the 360 VDC battery stack
>>
>> Motor $470
>> VFD $1600
>> Batteries $1500-$3000
>>
>> Will this work? Will charging 30 batteries in series be a problem?
>> Should I
>> use 48 volt stacks?
>>
>> Again, forgive me if this has already been discussed, but I have not been
>> able
>> to locate much information on this approach. If I understand the theory,
>> this
>> should charge the batteries during regen braking.
>>
>> I've used smaller Hitachi VFDs (1 and 2 HP) in the past. Nice units,
>> already
>> set up to receive analog signal for the speed, have start/stop inputs and
>> programmable torque curves and torque boost.
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Paul, BSEE, LCOD*
>>
>> *Loose Cannon on Deck
>>
>> [1]
>> Voltage 230/460 AC; Amps 70/35; RPM 3525; Shaft 1 5/8" diam. x 3 1/4"
>> w/keyway
>> Size 22 1/2" x 20" x 14 1/2"; shpg. 440 lbs. $469.95
>> http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007113005142041&item=10-1767&catname=
>>
>>
>> [2]
>> http://www.driveswarehouse.com/c-149-drives.aspx?categories_id=149&Horsepower=30.00&IVoltage=8&x=24&y=9
>> Height 15.4 inches (390 mm)
>> Width 9.8 inches (250 mm)
>> Depth 7.8 inches (198.5 mm)
>> Weight (lbs) 26.4
>> $1597
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:27:39 -0800
From: "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AC Motor/VFD/360 volt battery stack
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Also, that's a lot of batteries! You can probably get by with less. Many
VFDs I have seen will be happy at 280v. 320v is what you normally have on a
DC bus after rectification of 3-phase 240v. It's lower on 208, so most VFDs
will do this.
In addition to the massive weight of the industrial motor, you'll have all
those batteries to contend with, and then 30hp peak is going to be pretty
whimpy!
I'd say you could get a 10hp motor and drive it with a 50hp VFD. Providing
you can even find a 240v VFD with that power. Most are 480v.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:46 AM
Subject: [EVDL] AC Motor/VFD/360 volt battery stack
> Forgive me if this has been discussed in the past, but why can't I ....
>
> 1. Use a 30 HP 240 VAC induction motor [1].
> 2. Use a Variable Frequency AC Drive (VFD) e.g. the Hitachi L300P-220LFU2
> [2]
> 3. Series thirty 12 volt batteries to produce 360 VDC
> 4. Feed the DC bus on the VFD from the 360 VDC battery stack
>
> Motor $470
> VFD $1600
> Batteries $1500-$3000
>
> Will this work? Will charging 30 batteries in series be a problem? Should
> I
> use 48 volt stacks?
>
> Again, forgive me if this has already been discussed, but I have not been
> able
> to locate much information on this approach. If I understand the theory,
> this
> should charge the batteries during regen braking.
>
> I've used smaller Hitachi VFDs (1 and 2 HP) in the past. Nice units,
> already
> set up to receive analog signal for the speed, have start/stop inputs and
> programmable torque curves and torque boost.
>
> Thanks!
> Paul, BSEE, LCOD*
>
> *Loose Cannon on Deck
>
> [1]
> Voltage 230/460 AC; Amps 70/35; RPM 3525; Shaft 1 5/8" diam. x 3 1/4"
> w/keyway
> Size 22 1/2" x 20" x 14 1/2"; shpg. 440 lbs. $469.95
> http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007113005142041&item=10-1767&catname=
>
>
> [2]
> http://www.driveswarehouse.com/c-149-drives.aspx?categories_id=149&Horsepower=30.00&IVoltage=8&x=24&y=9
> Height 15.4 inches (390 mm)
> Width 9.8 inches (250 mm)
> Depth 7.8 inches (198.5 mm)
> Weight (lbs) 26.4
> $1597
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:31:54 -0500
From: Ben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AC Motor/VFD/360 volt battery stack
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Don't have time to search again, but I saw one of those motors on eBay
within the past few days.
On Nov 30, 2007 12:20 PM, (-Phil-) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The trick would be to find one of those surplus Ford Siemens motors that are
> running around. Use the VFD to drive that.
>
> -Phil
>
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:34:48 -0700
From: "Brian Staffanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] taking care of batteries
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I have converted my car, and am driving it a little. I was hoping to use it
for transportation to this semester of school. But because of the super bug
shimmy, melted battery posts, and having to do homework, it never quite made
it as the daily driver to school.
I will be starting to work (exciting I know!) and will be riding in a 12
passenger van to and from work. My car will be driven once a week or so.
Not on a regular basis. I have 15 6V batteries from Deka. I have a PFC20.
What is the best way of keeping these batteries in good shape so on the
occasion that I need to drive the car, it will be ready. This could be a 4
mile round trip to the local store, or the 20 mile trip into town to do more
shopping. The weather where I live is dry and cold, down to 20 degrees at
night or so, up to around 40 degrees currently. It snows occasionally, (but
we could use more).
If I keep the PFC 20 on low current mode, with a long time out, it would
work? Or would it be better to get 15 small float chargers to keep the pack
ready to go? What would be the best way to go?
Thanks,
Brian
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:37:05 -0800
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sunrise vs Volt, Re; Volt Frustrated????
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes;
format=flowed
Well boys here is an opportunity to have a Sunrise EV and start a Co-
oP at the same time. Just get 250 members to sign up for 1000 each
and all will be able to help build and sell a new Sunrise. Each would
then be part owner and if it got off the ground all would stand a
chance to make some serious money.
I'd join for only 1K. I'd invest more for the supplies for each car
but in the end it could be worth the small risk on a venture like
this. The technology is here. We just need a nice body to use. The
Sunrise works for me.
Pete
On Nov 30, 2007, at 9:03 AM, Keith wrote:
> if someone wants to donate
> $250,000.00 we all could have a lightweight composite body-frame
> system
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:52:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Todd Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] EV Conversion Financing
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
After reading a recent post saying roughly "do it
yourself, hire someone, or stop expecting an EV for
free", I got to thinking about EV conversion
financing.
When I bought my Force, I was lucky enough to have a
local Credit Union give me a signature loan to
purchase the vehicle (at 10.5% interest over 2 years).
Used car loans are difficult to apply to an EV since
they don't fit the usual categories that banks are
accustomed too. Also, they are sold typically by
individuals instead of used car lots. The problem is
compounded with a conversion kit, since a bank would
have trouble accepting the parts as collateral on the
loan. Remember, not every person that tries to make
an EV conversion succeeds! Even when they do, it
often takes far longer than anticipated.
What we need is a financial institution that is
interested in this issue.
Here is what I propose:
The Electric Auto Association (EAA) or some similar EV
advocacy group sets up a trust fund. Individuals
purchase a "private EV loan insurance" from the EAA to
guarantee their EV conversion loan that is underwriten
by a Bank. This would be similar to Private Mortgage
Insurance, for people who don't have enough down
payment to qualify for a home loan otherwise.
The EAA gets paid a little bit of money from each
individual that takes out one of these loans, which
covers the "payout" of the occasional default. Banks
win because they get a guaranteed loan. Individuals
win because they have an easy way to get a loan,
perhaps below "signature loan" rates (since they are
guaranteed). The EAA wins because they are leveraging
a little bit of money into a lot of conversions and if
done correctly is self-sustaining.
Anyone have any feedback?
Thanks,
Todd Martin
VP, FVEAA
1997 Solectria Force
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better pen pal.
Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.
http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:57:14 -0600
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sunrise vs Volt, Re; Volt Frustrated????
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
$250k is ridiculous! (Unless we're also buying a license to the
intellectual property.)
The solar car team makes molds for composite assembly, and the process
costs less than $50,000! A big chunk of that is paying a machine shop
with the right machinery to mill the molds. (Two molds, one for the
top half and one for the bottom half.) However, the solar cars are
very aerodynamic and streamlined, with no tricky protrusions like
mirrors. I'm guessing that the Sunrise would have to include mirrors
as a separate component.
Also, what is the status on the intellectual property of the Sunrise?
If the owners of the company (or whoever bought them) tells us to not
use their IP, what can we do?
-Morgan LaMoore
On Nov 30, 2007 11:37 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well boys here is an opportunity to have a Sunrise EV and start a Co-
> oP at the same time. Just get 250 members to sign up for 1000 each
> and all will be able to help build and sell a new Sunrise. Each would
> then be part owner and if it got off the ground all would stand a
> chance to make some serious money.
>
> I'd join for only 1K. I'd invest more for the supplies for each car
> but in the end it could be worth the small risk on a venture like
> this. The technology is here. We just need a nice body to use. The
> Sunrise works for me.
>
> Pete
>
>
> On Nov 30, 2007, at 9:03 AM, Keith wrote:
>
> > if someone wants to donate
> > $250,000.00 we all could have a lightweight composite body-frame
> > system
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 19:05:12 +0100
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sunrise vs Volt, Re; Volt Frustrated????
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
let's wait for a more detailed plan before being concerned with cost. to
me it's a non issue.
Dan
Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> $250k is ridiculous! (Unless we're also buying a license to the
> intellectual property.)
>
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:37:46 +0100
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Motor direction
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
anyone know which way volkswagen/audi/porsche motors spin? I've found a
possible candidate motor but it's CWDE which I take to mean one way only.
it has good power, small weight, small price. a kostov (now called
elprom ems)
Dan
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:11:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AC Motor/VFD/360 volt battery stack
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Hi Paul,
You have a valid idea, but.......
--- Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Forgive me if this has been discussed in the past,
> but why can't I ....
>
> 1. Use a 30 HP 240 VAC induction motor [1].
Weighs 440 pounds. For 30 hp. Maybe 2 to 2.5 times
that peak. Awfully heavy. And I prefer 4 pole
motors.
> 2. Use a Variable Frequency AC Drive (VFD) e.g. the
> Hitachi L300P-220LFU2 [2]
You should go with the flux vector model and use an
encoder feedback from the motor to get true torque
control. Also, you'd be safer to go at least 50
percent higher on the inverter rating.
> 3. Series thirty 12 volt batteries to produce 360
> VDC
> 4. Feed the DC bus on the VFD from the 360 VDC
> battery stack
>
> Motor $470
> VFD $1600
> Batteries $1500-$3000
>
> Will this work?
Yes, but how well? Devil is in the details.
> Will charging 30 batteries in
> series be a problem? Should I
> use 48 volt stacks?
Depends on what you can afford or build for a charger.
> Again, forgive me if this has already been
> discussed, but I have not been able
> to locate much information on this approach. If I
> understand the theory, this
> should charge the batteries during regen braking.
Yes, it can if you use torque control, four quadrant.
Regen can help a little for range, but don't count on
it for much. Maybe 5 to 10 percent.
> I've used smaller Hitachi VFDs (1 and 2 HP) in the
> past. Nice units, already
> set up to receive analog signal for the speed, have
> start/stop inputs and
> programmable torque curves and torque boost.
Again, use torque control, not curves or boost. And
the encoders usually are digital.
Can be done. Good luck.
Jeff M
> Thanks!
> Paul, BSEE, LCOD*
>
> *Loose Cannon on Deck
>
> [1]
> Voltage 230/460 AC; Amps 70/35; RPM 3525; Shaft 1
> 5/8" diam. x 3 1/4" w/keyway
> Size 22 1/2" x 20" x 14 1/2"; shpg. 440 lbs.
> $469.95
>
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007113005142041&item=10-1767&catname=
>
>
> [2]
>
http://www.driveswarehouse.com/c-149-drives.aspx?categories_id=149&Horsepower=30.00&IVoltage=8&x=24&y=9
> Height 15.4 inches (390 mm)
> Width 9.8 inches (250 mm)
> Depth 7.8 inches (198.5 mm)
> Weight (lbs) 26.4
> $1597
____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:34:02 -0700
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Convert an automatic FWD car?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello Eduardo,
The motor, controller and batteries are no problem. I am using the same set
up with 180 volts of batteries and have a range of 39.5 miles so far at 50%
DOD.
If you are using a automatic, you will have to modified it so you can start
to the move the car at about .1mph. The torque converter in some models
will not start to lock up below 500 rpm. If you idle the motor at 500 rpm,
then if you do not apply additional load to the motor to keep it running up
in rpm, you will be starting out at a jerk which may take out the clutches
in with a short period of time.
I am now testing a GM heavy duty TH-400 automatic that does not use a torque
converter, put uses a pump drive that can start turning the pump right at
0.1 rpm, has very heavy racing type clutches and all the automatic control
devices have been remove, add a full manual value which now can only be
shifted like a manual transmission.
The advantage will be, that I get rid of a flywheel, pressure plate, clutch
disc or a very heavy torque converter, the governor controls, the kick down
cables, less transmission fluid because of the torque converter and it fits
any Warp motors and GE motors using the same adapter plate that fits any GM
engine from the 1957's to the present.
The disadvantage is that some gear ratios are too high and you must change
your differential gear ratio to a very low gear ratio. If your transmission
is a vacuum control that regulates the transmission oil pressure which some
of the new electronic transmission do not use, you have to install a vacuum
control regulator that is control by the accelerator linkage which increases
the pump pressure when the vacuum is low (normally cause by engine
acceleration) and decrease pump pressure when accelerator linkage is
release.
These units are normally use on diesel engines that do not produce a vacuum
source, but uses this vacuum regulator which controls a vacuum source from a
vacuum pump.
You can idle a Zilla by installing another 5 kohm pot in series with the
existing accelerator 5k ohm and then set that pot for a idle point. I use a
three position selector switch on the dash, that can switch this pot out and
into the circuit. The only thing that I have to remember is to switch it
out of the circuit, because the Zilla will not start up with a pot
resistance signal to the Zilla.
I have a retire diesel master mechanic that is working on this system, and
we will find out in June 2008 how this is going to work out.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eduardo Kaftanski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 10:06 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Convert an automatic FWD car?
>
> My first conversion is still not ready (waiting for the machine shop) and
> I am planning the second.... I need input.
>
> My daily driver's engine is failing. Its a 1996 Citroen Xantia, automatic.
> The engine is a 115HP 2.0 and the transmission is a 4 speed non-electronic
> auto (ZF4HP14). Car weights around 2500lbs.
>
> I plan on putting in a Warp9 or bigger motor, a 1k zilla and 144v of
> 12v deep cycle lead acid batts. I dont need more than 20 miles of range.
>
> Am I too crazy?
>
> --
> Eduardo K. |
> http://www.carfun.cl | I'm white and nerdy
> http://ev.nn.cl | Weird Al
> |
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 19
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:43:42 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Conversion Financing
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:52 PM
Subject: [EVDL] EV Conversion Financing
> After reading a recent post saying roughly "do it
> yourself, hire someone, or stop expecting an EV for
> free", I got to thinking about EV conversion
> financing.
>
> When I bought my Force, I was lucky enough to have a
> local Credit Union give me a signature loan to
> purchase the vehicle (at 10.5% interest over 2 years).
> Used car loans are difficult to apply to an EV since
> they don't fit the usual categories that banks are
> accustomed too. Also, they are sold typically by
> individuals instead of used car lots. The problem is
> compounded with a conversion kit, since a bank would
> have trouble accepting the parts as collateral on the
> loan. Remember, not every person that tries to make
> an EV conversion succeeds! Even when they do, it
> often takes far longer than anticipated.
>
> What we need is a financial institution that is
> interested in this issue.
>
> Here is what I propose:
>
> The Electric Auto Association (EAA) or some similar EV
> advocacy group sets up a trust fund. Individuals
> purchase a "private EV loan insurance" from the EAA to
> guarantee their EV conversion loan that is underwriten
> by a Bank. This would be similar to Private Mortgage
> Insurance, for people who don't have enough down
> payment to qualify for a home loan otherwise.
>
> The EAA gets paid a little bit of money from each
> individual that takes out one of these loans, which
> covers the "payout" of the occasional default. Banks
> win because they get a guaranteed loan. Individuals
> win because they have an easy way to get a loan,
> perhaps below "signature loan" rates (since they are
> guaranteed). The EAA wins because they are leveraging
> a little bit of money into a lot of conversions and if
> done correctly is self-sustaining.
>
> Anyone have any feedback?
> Hi Todd an' EVerybody;
Sounds like a good plan? Then you would be getting alot more for yur 39
bux a year.The EAA would have a more active part of getting more EV'es out
there?
Bob
> Thanks,
>
> Todd Martin
> VP, FVEAA
> 1997 Solectria Force
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Be a better pen pal.
> Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.
> http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> --
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.28/1023 - Release Date:
> 9/22/2007 1:27 PM
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 20
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:49:00 -0800
From: "Aliza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Nanosolar panels and ev's
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
What does it take to link solar panels to an ev system for charging during
the day either when parked or on the move? It would seem to me that these
new nanosolar panels would make a difference in terms of how far one can
drive during the day. If they can print them on the top of a big truck (or
anything else I might add) why not on the top of your car?
Just curious as there is a huge push to get these panels up on the top of
houses. Really fabu idea. But I remember them talking about roof top
shingles in the 80's in california. Guess PG&E didnt really want to eh?
Aliza
------------------------------
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End of EV Digest, Vol 4, Issue 88
*********************************
