EV Digest 2492
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Update on Tilley's Delorian
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) electric vs ICE horsepower
by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Inquiry about Buck enhancer
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Rudman PFC charger efficiency vs others
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Fw: evaa2002 text report
by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Golfcart charging.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: ceramic heater thoughts...
by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: OT - Re: hydrogen economy
by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: converting shredder to electric?
by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: OT - Re: hydrogen economy
by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: electric vs ICE horsepower
by Peter A VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: converting shredder to electric?
by "Humphrey, Timothy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Ranger EVs Still Around?
by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Golfcart charging.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) AC Motors on Ebay
by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: AC Motors on Ebay
by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Coolant pump choice?
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Beefing up a Neon to convert.
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) EV trailers, was Re: Beefing up a Neon to convert.
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Update on Tilley's Delorian
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Update on Tilley's Delorian
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) EV data acquisition systems
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) Re: Rudman PFC charger efficiency vs others
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: EV data acquisition systems
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: GhiaMonster Electrical Subsystem...
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I got a copy in the mail and was real impressed with it . There were all
the car's I'd been hearing about tango,segway ,Prius and the Tilley car . I
an interested some how in what he is doing , how he can pull this thing off
ect. Here is an Idea I will offer Mr. Tilley . Take a small wind mill with
a 3 inch prop something that will gen about 5 volts/10 ma, mount on hood
and hook it to an EV with Curtis controller . Hook the gen output to the
pot box input on controller. Now as you start out (with reporters in the
car ) and the little wind mill on the hood starts spinning it will turn on
the controller on(I'm not exactly sure of the hood up but I'm sure there are
people on the list that can help) ,. Once the wind mill starts controlling
the controller you can lift your foot of the gas pedal and the car will keep
going . Then put the reporters behind the wheel . When that wind mill starts
spinning and the controller starts opening up you won't have to play any
wheel bearing games . A flap that stops the prop from turning will bring the
car back under control . On the last page an ad for Tyco talks about
"currents from 4 to 600 Vdc" I also enjoyed the girls in bathing suits .
Think of it like Santa Clause , Just cuse you know it isn't true you can
still pretend and it makes the kids so happy. ( to be taken lightly)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 5:25 AM
Subject: Re: Update on Tilley's Delorian
> It does kind of make it into a National Inquire science fiction mag by
> putting in these types of articles.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 4:37 PM
> Subject: Re: Update on Tilley's Delorian
>
>
> > "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" wrote:
> > >
> > > Bruce knows this, he drives an EV after all. This kind of fallacious
> > > reporting is inexcusable.
> > >
> > I agree. What do you think can make Bruce to publish this?
> >
> > The more I read about this stuff, the more I suspect that
> > Tilley survival as long as possible and ET coverage are set up
> > to be mutually beneficial. Hope this is not true, I want to be
> > wrong here, but I can't imagine why otherwise Bruce does it -
> > it is seem to be a dis-service to the readers. Just like those
> > UFO publications.
> >
> > With all respect, this is wrong way to attract subscribers Bruce.
> > (final point of the piece was urging to subscribe to find out more).
> >
> > I know Bruce personally, he's fine man. I really wish I'd be
> > wrong on my judgment here...
> >
> > Victor
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter A VanDerWal wrote:
> That's easy. All you can pull from a normal 120V outlet is 15 amps
> (actually something like 12 amps continuously). That works out to be
> about a 2hp motor which is roughly equivalent to a 5-6hp ICE.
<rookie alert>
Can you explain that a bit more? Is it because the ICE mostly
operates well below its peak hp?
--
Lesley Walker
Unix Engineering, EDS New Zealand
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
--- James R. Healey, USA Today
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It depends on the serial number and what parts were used in the power stage.
Some units will need one upgraded part, some will require all new parts in
the power stage and some will require a new Printed Circuit Board.
All of them will need a line current sensor PCB added to the chassis.
Buck enhancement will give more amps regardless of input line voltage.
Get your serial number and call Rich for prices.
He may need you to read some part numbers to him to get an accurate quote.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 10:55 AM
Subject: RE: Inquiry about Buck enhancer
> Sorry, hit Send before correcting the address. Ment to go directly to
Rich.
> Please disregard.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ed Thorpe
> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 10:53 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Inquiry about Buck enhancer
>
>
> Rich,
>
> What is involved to upgrade an existing PFC-20 to Buck, for the 240VAC
> enhancement?
>
> -Ed
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 10:44 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Battery Charger for Nickel Zinc
>
> ...
>
> The Chargers are being tuned to do 12 to 450 output volts nowdays. I
> have NOT tested them off of DC but that's coming. PFC50s really should
> not be run hard at under 48 volts.... I have not done much abuse testing
> Bucking that far down and at full amps. 160 VDC will be a real nice spot
> for the PFC chargers. A Buck enhancer from 240 VAC will get you 10 more
> amps from the same line feed. Recomended at this voltage.
>
> Yep I can help you.
> --
> Rich Rudman
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Please forward these measurements to me to validate my measurements.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:31 PM
Subject: Re: Rudman PFC charger efficiency vs others
> Yes.
>
> Talk to Bob Wheeler SFPEAA. He has most of the data we
> recorded when we measured my chargers.
>
>
>
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Tom Gross, Deputy Assistant Secretary with DOE and board of directors
> for energy efficiency noted that supply coal and natural gas has makes
> US electricity and imported oil is mostly wasted in inefficient
> vehicles. Saudi has the largest reserves of the world's oil supply at
> 26% with Iraq second at 11%. The growing gap between production and
> demand is presently 11 million barrels (22gal/barrel) per day. A 60%
> increase in cafe and 10 billion barrels from ANWR in Alaska still
> won't close the gap without something different.
Interesting that the current administration's Energy Secretary, Spence Abraham, while
discussing the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge
with the Sacramento Bee newspaper last year, said:
"Americans should not overestimate this region's ability to provide the nation with
energy independence".
He also said:
"the roughly 10 billion barrels of oil expected to be found there would be the
equivalent of just six months of U.S. consumption".
http://www.sacbee.com/news/special/power/032001abraham.html
> Jonathan Lash, President of World Resources Institute talked
> about a Shell partnership to reduce demand for oil and better
> long term choices. Historical context is needed to establish
> what happens over long term. Humans tend to only look at the
> short term. (You can't take a snapshot in time based on personal
> experience to set policy). The US economy has quadrupled as the
> population has doubled and the pollutant emissions have
> decreased by 40%. This is quite an achievement. It appears that
> a rapidly expanding fossil fuel economy makes society better but
> this is only a 50 year snapshot not a long term solution.
Quite an achievement indeed. Too bad he left out the part increasingly stricter (until
recently) environmental regulations played in the
reduction of those pollutant emissions. It sure wasn't the "rapidly expanding fossil
fuel economy'.
Vince
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Lahers charger finally started to work after I rewired the Hubbel 15amp
plug. Just buffed it out and cleaned it. Grounded it properly. Tighened
down a screw in fuse and she fired up. Currently charging at 45.27 and
rising. Isn't a 36v pack a little less. This is an old fashioned charger
with two transformers. Different positions for different voltages from 108
to 125v. The charger had a timer which is now usless and has been tossed.
Is this high voltage an equalizing voltage or is this normal for the era.
Would standard 6volters take this. I am using 5 8v Delphis just for
testing. Is it possible that the Delphis higher voltage will allow the
charger to rise a bit higher because of less resistance? It also has to be
engaged in F or R to charge. I am a little uneasy about that. Lawrence
Rhodes..........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
> As for wiring two modules in series, that is unlikely to help your
> fault voltage issue (I tried it). One gets very hot while the other
> stays cool, the hot one goes into runaway too quickly for the other to
> save it.
>
> It may be possible to series the multiple elements in each heater
> itself for higher voltage ratings.
Then the older single element units should work in series without a lot of hassle.
Have to give that a try.
Vince
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger wrote:
> Let me state up front that I have no interest or intention of
> debating this issue
Yet you are.
> As a dis-interested bystander to this debate, perhaps it is easier for
> me to see this, but NOTHING in what you have quoted contradicts what
> Peter stated.
Sure it does.
He claimed there would be "storage losses" from "compression" and "pressurized
storage". There is no compression or pressurized
storage involved in the process.
He wrote of "hydrogen electrolysis", but there is no electrolysis of hydrogen
involved. The system is, for lack of a better term, a
'hydrogen storage battery', and does not involve electrolysis.
You want more ?
> NOWHERE is the recycling of the spent borohydride mentioned: the
> success of the fuel cell MINIVAN, not the borohydride recycling system
> is what exceeded DC's expectations
Nothing personal, but that is just dead wrong. DaimlerChrysler stated:
"The success of the Natrium(TM) Town & Country minivan has exceeded our
expectations..."
The "Natrium" minivan mentioned specifically utilizes the 'Hydrogen on Demand'
Millennium Cell system, which is coupled to, and stores
hydrogen for, a separate fuel cell. They were referring to Millennium Cell's system,
not the fuel cell. Read the press release from
DaimlerChrysler.
> Likewise, the "Best of What's New Award" (sounds suspiciously like an
> award bestowed by PopSci, not exactly a widely respected journal
> anyway) is for the DELIVERY of hydrogen in the vehicle; it does not
> address the recyling of the spent borohydride solution.
Because the 'Hydrogen on Demand' system involves recycling of a borate solution.
Sodium borate is is a common, non-toxic household
item, which is what is recycled into sodium borohydride.
> > > The only workable methods require huge amounts
> > > of energy, temperatures above 200 degrees, that
> > > sort of thing.
> >
> > Except the company states that it DOESN'T require high
> temperatures,
> > and is a "low cost" and "simple" hydrogen storage system.
>
> Again, Peter is specifically referring to the RECYCLING of the spend
> borohydride into a usable source of hydrogen, while the company is
> referring to the process of extracting hydrogen from the borohydride
> storage.
No. The references to "low cost" and "simple" refer to the entire 'Hydrogen on Demand'
system, not just "the process of extracting
hydrogen from the borohydride storage".
> > In regards to the recycling, they state:
> >
> > "the borohydride fuel is converted to a borate solution, which is
> > collected in a waste tank. This borate solution is recyclable into
> > new borohydride fuel. Borohydride can be re-used indefinitely in
> > this cycle."
> >
> > Are you contending that those are all misrepresentations ?
>
> Peter did not state that it is IMPOSSIBLE to recycle the spent
> borohydride solution, just that it is inefficient and requires high
> temperatures.
And the company specifically states that the system does not involve high
temperatures. I'm to believe the engineers at Mercedes and
Chrysler are fools ?
> Indeed, an excerpt you quoted along the way that stated that
> extraction of the hydrogen from the borohydride results in enough heat
> generation to boil some of the water off such that the hydrogen is at
> 100% relative humidity is a definite clue that Peter is right on the
> money: the heat being released is additional ENERGY, and that energy
> had to have been input to the borohydride solution during its
> generation/recycling.
Actually, they say that:
"The heat generated is sufficient to vaporize SOME of the water present, and as a
result the hydrogen is supplied at 100% relative
humidity. This co-generated moisture in the H2 stream is an ADDED BENEFIT both for
fuel cells and for internal combustion engines."
"The reaction is exothermic; there is no need to supply external heat".
They also quite plainly state that the 'Hydrogen on Demand' system operates at ambient
temperatures.
> > Again, you're confused. It's not a fuel cell. It can potentially be
> > mated to a fuel cell, but that's a separate discussion.
>
> Peter's point is that your borohydride solution is NOT an energy
> storage system on its own; it merely stores hydrogen.
No, that was my point, and it's not "my borohydride solution".
> Now, can we please get back to discussing systems DIRECTLY relevant to
> electric vehicles? This thread seems to be getting confused between
> MASS storage systems (which as has been pointed out, are not
> appropriate for mobile/vehicular applications), and energy storage
> alternatives to batteries (which MIGHT be relevant to our electric
> vehicles).
Sure, but I was originally discussing the decentralized production of both electricity
and hydrogen, which is quite relevant.
Vince
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeremy wrote:
> You can buy a leaf shredder from Harbor Freight that is already
> electric(110V). But it is around 1HP. It may be cheaper and safer to
> buy one designed for electric.
Agreed.
I have an electric model manufactured in Germany. It's not for those big honking
branches, but in most instances it works just fine.
Vince
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter wrote:
> It has become clear to me that you are not even bothering to read all
> of my posts and are misinterpreting the parts you do read.
Funny, that's what I said of you in a much earlier post.
Sorry, but your arguments seem to be with the engineers and/or scientists at
DaimlerChrysler and Millennium Cell, not me.
Vince
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 2002-12-19 at 01:04, Walker, Lesley R wrote:
> Peter A VanDerWal wrote:
> > That's easy. All you can pull from a normal 120V outlet is 15 amps
> > (actually something like 12 amps continuously). That works out to be
> > about a 2hp motor which is roughly equivalent to a 5-6hp ICE.
>
> <rookie alert>
> Can you explain that a bit more? Is it because the ICE mostly
> operates well below its peak hp?
>
Exactly. Ice's are rated for the Maximum HP they can produce under
laboratory conditions. Conditions that rarely exist in the wild.
Besides, a 6HP rating doesn't mean it can produce that much continuously
(most small motors will overheat if they tried.)
Electric motors, on the other hand, are 'normally' rated for their
continuous power output. A 2hp electric motor might be able to produce
20 hp for a brief period (if you could force the power into it).
The exception to this is vacuum cleaners and power tools. Often you
will see these with ridiculous ratings like "5hp'...on a 120V
appliance. 5hp would require you to draw something like 40-50 amps from
a 15 amp outlet.
Anyway, small ICEs are typically run at 1/3 to 1/2 their rated power.
Usually closer to 1/3.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you want a real cheap way out!! Or just want to inexpensively
experiment!! Go to your local Big Lots/Odd Lots (Sorry David, beat you on
this one) and pick up one of the table saws or mitre saws that they have
available for 89 bucks.
The saw itself is poorly made and the fit/finish of the parts is definately
not Wayland inspectable, but that doesn't matter, what your after is the
motor inside. It is direct drive, universal, CCW rotation, rated at
120vac/12amps. I have one and in fact use it as a tablesaw, even though I
bought it for the motor to convert a lawn mower, or snowblower, or
something. (another project that never came to fruition). Anyway, where are
you going to find a motor with those specs for under 100 bucks to experiment
with.
Realistically, these motors are probably more powerful than the 6 hp ice, if
you overload the ice, it will stall. (period). If you overload the electric
it will just keep pulling more current and producing more and more torque
until it either overcomes the load, overheats(resettable) or pops the main
breaker. Experience shows that the overtemp breaker will pop before the ac
box breaker. I tested this while ripping a 2" thick piece of cherry, I
wanted to "see what she would do". So I fed that board in as fast as I could
push it, I tell you she was groaning, but just kept on going, until the
overtemp button popped.(about 6 feet into the board) (wait 30 seconds and
reset) At the rate and pressure I was feeding that board it would have
EASILY stalled my 4hp chainsaw long before the amount of time it took for
the electric to overheat.(and that chainsaw is nowhere near as fickle as a
Tecumseh or B&S 4 cycle).
That table saw will even crosscut 1x6 pine on 12VDC (slowly, but faster than
you might think.)
My local Tractor Supply Center (TSC) has farm duty 120vac 2.5 hp motors for
less than $150.00, check out yours.
Have Fun
and
Stay Charged!
Hump
-----Original Message-----
From: Roy LeMeur
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 12/19/02 12:04 AM
Subject: Re: converting shredder to electric?
On Wed, 2002-12-18 at 19:31, Andrew wrote:
>Hello All
>I just finished the annual shredding of the leaves that occurs every
>year here in tree town. The utensil of choice is a Sears 6 Hp shredder
>with the ubiquitous Tecumseh 4 stroke engine. It worked but it was
>noisy, hard to start and evil smelling.
>
>I think the substitution of an electric motor would be a step in the
>right direction as well as being a nice simple conversion project.
>So what do I need for a motor?
>
>I'm planning to plug it into the wall so I know it's going to be 120 V
>AC.
>
>What kind of horsepower do I need?
I would bet a motor from a heavy duty table saw among many others would
work
fine.
Take a look at motors available at Grainger.
Use a 20A circuit and a large gauge extension cord.
Even if it doesn't make quite the power of the ICE, it will just take a
little longer to accomplish the task.
Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informational Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gary,
Instead of redoing the whole board, why don't you poor some Humiseal 1B31
on the board.
http://www.humiseal.com/protect/acrylic.htm
Urethane is even better since it is more resistant to solvents, but it's a
little
harder to work with. Urethane also has a higher dielectric constant.
http://www.humiseal.com/protect/urethane.htm
These will make a big difference! Just ask Bob Rice, he probably has a
BLDC
fuel pump made by Ametek on his big hybrid (Amtrack train). The integrated
half wave drive
is coated with Urethane.
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> The Lahers charger... Currently charging at 45.27 and rising. Isn't a
> 36v pack a little less?
That's about 2.515 volts per cell, which is the final equalize voltage
for a fully charged cell. The current should be very low at this voltage
(less than 2% of the battery's amphour capacity). And you don't want to
leave this voltage on the battery for too long, especially a sealed
battery.
> It also has to be engaged in F or R to charge. I am a little uneasy
> about that.
That's peculiar. I wonder why they wired it that way?
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This seller has some 10-35HP AC Mitsubishi motors at - what appears to
be - low "Buy it now" prices.
http://www.stores.ebay.com/MEAUAuctions/plistings/list/all/dept4/index.html
Disclaimer: I know next to nothing about AC motor requirements for
applicability to EVs.
Lonnie
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not too shabby, but they are HEAVY! They are too low power for a car unless
you use 2-4 of them and too heavy for a motorcycle IMHO. But the price is
right. It'd make one heck of a go-cart!
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
Years of development: We finally got one to work.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Lonnie Borntreger
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:55 AM
To: Evlist
Subject: AC Motors on Ebay
This seller has some 10-35HP AC Mitsubishi motors at - what appears to
be - low "Buy it now" prices.
http://www.stores.ebay.com/MEAUAuctions/plistings/list/all/dept4/index.html
Disclaimer: I know next to nothing about AC motor requirements for
applicability to EVs.
Lonnie
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
I know it's Thursday, and this thread is from last Friday, but I'm behind
on the list reading again!
For both our upgraded T-Rex and new Raptor controllers, I used a Grainger
#1P811, Teel brand marine and camper 12VDC centrifugal pump, for $24. I
mounted them on the traction motor, which of course is isolated from the
chassis by rubber mounts, so it is only somewhat audible in the vehicle. It
isn't as quiet as a fish tank pump, but it was inexpensive, low current,
durable, and in stock within 15 miles of the shop.
Enjoying the cool electronics,
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Lyons, CO
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's, for the 16 year-old son!)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
>Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:26:06 -0500
>From: Jeremy Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>What about this pump:
>http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/html/jabsco.html
>
>I was thinking of getting one of these for the coolant pump for my
>t-rex...
>They are used as a coolant pump for the heat for a mercedes (I think)
>
> -Jeremy
>
>On Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 11:28 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>wrote:
>
>> I'm trying to pick out a silent, reliable coolant pump for my EV. I
>> plan to install water-cooled NiCads in the Wabbit, so I need a pump to
>> circulate the coolant. A 12 volt pump seemed most logical. Bait well
>> pumps seemed to be the right pressure and flow rate. I would think
>> that they would also have reasonable life and would be able to handle
>> coolant.
>>
>> The following two pumps seemed to be good candidates:
>>
>> http://www.tbympl.com/body_attwood03.html
>>
>> http://www.outfittersparadise.com/b/Bait_Well_Pumps/
>> Rule_Straight_1_Log_Pick_Up_Tube_for_Mounting_to_Seacock_500_GPH_326177
>> .htm
>>
>> Does anyone have experience with either of these pumps or
>> brands? Silent operation is important to me.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
As I said in another e-mail reply, I know it's Thursday, and this thread is
from last Friday, but I'm behind on the list reading again!
When we bought the RX-7, advertised as "EV for sale, needs new batteries",
it was originally a 108 volt pack of 6 volters (T-125's I think), which I
replaced with 8V floodies for 144 volts. As a newbie, I tortured that new
pack by undercharging it and doing full throttle accelerations with a 500
amp Cursit 1231, and "still" got 10K miles out of it! As Mr. Roden says, 18
floodies is about the limit for a small car, and I had to replace both rear
axle bearings on the RX-7 before going to the lighter YT pack.
Also, I found that with a 144V pack, the ADC 9" would top out at 6000 rpm,
which was perfect.
EV's as a way of life,
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Lyons, CO
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's, for the 16 year-old son!)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
>From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 13:14:27 -0500
>
>On 11 Dec 2002 at 17:49, Shelton, John D. AW2 wrote:
>
>> I would like to try to use more than 120v of 6v golf cart batteries
>> (my goal is 144v) but I'm not sure(along with others on the list on the list
>> that have advised me in the past) that my car could handle it.
>
>With 6v golf car batteries, the practical limit in a small car is about 108
>volts. After that it gets real challenging to keep the handling safe with
>all that extra mass, often laid out fairly high in the chassis. Even if you
>beef up the springs, driving it still feels rather like riding a bike with a
>25lb backpack on.
>
>You can get 144 volts with 8 volt golf car batteries at a more-or-less
>manageable mass. They won't last as long as the 6-volters, making the per-
>mile cost higher, but they'll stand up significantly longer than the usual
>12v flooded marine batteries.
>
>Or go with the lower voltage. In spite of what some people on this list
>say, you ^can^ make a very capable and practical conversion at 96 or 108
>volts, providing you use a suitable motor, controller, and gearing.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chad and All,
We've had this discussion before!
When I was new to EV's, and right around Y2K, I got a sweat deal on a 10KVA
genset for our rural house (with a well), and a possible range extender,
but I don't want to use gas or propane on a regular basis, so there it
sits, unless we are drag racing the RX-7!
Now with the limited range of both the S10 and RX-7, I've been giving this
battery trailer idea a lot of thought, and having built, used, and retired
a moss-rock picking trailer with an electric brake equipped axle (and
narrowed to match my old Bronco wheelbase), all I would need to do is build
the trailer frame for 24 T-105/US2200 batteries. Hmmmmm...I wonder if the
wife would spring for another battery pack? No, probably not!
Speaking of trailers, I recently used the S10 EV to pull my 18 foot car
hauler in a Xmas parade, along with 35 high school band members and lots of
Xmas lights, powered from the traction pack, instead of a stinking ICE
genset like the other floats, but that's another post!
Tired of waiting for the FrankenLester/Zivan bulk charges while away from home,
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Lyons, CO
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's, for the 16 year-old son!)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
>From: "Chad Peddy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:14:12 -0800
>
>Hi,
>
>Battery weight is a major issue in keeping a vehicle light but with enough
>range to make the vehicle practical.
>
>I have a solution for this.
>
>Tow a trailer. I have designed a great battery trailer, with specks that a
>small car can handle. The extra weight is on the trailer and not on the
>car.
>
>Trailer weight 1700lbs.
>24 6volt batts
<snip>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Powell wrote:
>
> > the micro-nano technology that was recently suppressed for
> > fuel injectors.
> > The invention was a screen so fine and so sharp that it
> > literally split
> > water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen so that an
> > automobile could run on
> > pure water.
>
> You *are* being sarcastic, right? Something capable of physically splitting
> molecular bonds, cute.
>
> Don
>
Some really Phunny Solid state cyrstaline chemistry....
The mineral class is Called "Zeolites" Ca,Mg,Fe hydro Silicates.
These are the really big ticket in Catalyitc cracking of long chain
Hydro carbons. The BIG oil guys use these in the refineries. They are
one of the main reasons that Unleaded regular has a different smell that
it did 30 years ago. These mineral structures help the craking of the
heavies that used to be waste tar and Asphalt.
So yea you CAN get micro structures to crack or help crack up
molecules. But they are crystals of normal materials that are rather
interestingly enhanched as to the size and shape of the Nano channels
they have.
Do a search in Scientific American... about 10 to 20 years back. And
yes the Big OILIES know about it, it was funded and researched by them.
It saves BILLIONS in refining costs. And keeps the stuff at about $1 a
gallon.
Fliping some carbon bonds about is normal stuff. Busting the Hydro
carbons into C, H2 and 02, would release most of the energy in the
"Fuel", Basicly starting a nice fire. You are supposed to release this
energy AFTER the intake and exhaust valves are CLOSED!!! So this "Micro
Nano" screen should be installed inside the combustion chamber.
Lets remeber that the hydro carbon reformers that feed the new
generation of Fuel cells is not a easy technology. They release the
Carbon and O2 of the fuel, and take some serious amounts of the fuel's
energy to operate.
It is amazing how close real chemistry is to Phunny stuff.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Powell wrote:
>
> > the micro-nano technology that was recently suppressed for
> > fuel injectors.
> > The invention was a screen so fine and so sharp that it
> > literally split
> > water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen so that an
> > automobile could run on
> > pure water.
>
> You *are* being sarcastic, right? Something capable of physically splitting
> molecular bonds, cute.
>
> Don
> More Phunny fuel injection stories.
Why do all fuel injection systems have a Rail and a return line to the
Tank???
Why pump more pressurized fuel up through the filters, and then bleed if
off back to the fuel tank???
because the action of the injectors in the pressurized fuel rail
"Creates Gas bubbles" in the fuel flow. Driving this back to the tank
lets the fuel cool as well as the vapor/ bubbles to condense or
seperate. Also this allows the fuel tank to keep the fuel cool by
getting it out from under the hot hood before it vaporizes from the
engine heat.
Back in my Turbo Ford days, I had a feed back loop that kept the
injector rail pressure from blowing apart the 1/8 return line that the
old Carbed system had as a tank return line in my '80 Capri. The Fuelie
had a 3/8 line to and from the injector rail. I bypassed the High
pressure return into the pump take up line, ahead of the low pressure
pump and on the intake of the high P injector pump. Many folks told me
that this kept the bubbles in the loop and would screw up my fuel
mixtures. It did, and is one of the main reasons I never got power that
the head work and cam work should have yielded.
I never really saw the bubbles because it's really hard to look through
your fuel lines when making 200 Hp. I should have been making 350+.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I've been toying with EV data acquisition for a while to optimize my electric
drag bike. Trying to remember what an ammeter was doing while blasting down
the 1/8 mile doesn't really get it done.
There's a few high dollar solutions out there, but I'm working with a
Microprocessor with 12 bit A-D converters. The code is easy, but conditioning
signals is the problem.
At this point, I'm analyzing different signal with a scope.
Battery Volts - This one's easy. Nice and smooth.
Motor Volts - I can get PWM voltage, shows duty cycle, at full ON I get steady
volts. This is usable.
AMPS?
That's where the problems lie. With a 50mv shunt, I get some pretty erratic
signals. Am I correct in saying MOTOR AMPS should be fairly constant, since
the freewheeling diodes are allowing current to circulate even when the MOSFETs
are off? I do expect BATTERY AMPS to be pulses, as the controller is only
asking for amps part of the time.
I have had nice 'looking' results with a current clamp. I say nice looking
because I think the clamp is missing something, maybe not accurate at PWM
frequencies? Although even if it's not accurate, the clamp is still an
indication of whether amps are going up or down. The precision isn't as
important as the accuracy.
Back to the shunt measurements, that's the method used in E-meters. It must be
a good method, but I'm missing something they've got. Just plugging RS-232
into an emeter would work, but only outputs every second..
So, are there any proven methods out there for rapidly recording AMPS?
Darin Gilbert
Bad Fish Racing
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck Hursch wrote:
>
> Has anybody taken AC kWh readings upstream of their PFC chargers
> and, say, a Zivan K2? I've run a kWh-meter upstream of a K&W
> BC-20, Zivan K2, and a RUSSCO (beta unit). The 120V Zivan K2 was
> the best of the bunch, the RUSSCO was next, and the K&W picked up
> the rear. All 120V chargers. I was a little surprised that the
> Zivan beat the RUSSCO. Now I'm wondering how the PFC charger
> would fare in this experiment on a 96V pack (where I know the
> power-factor correction is probably on the low end of its range,
> but it's probably still a whole lot better than any of the three
> chargers I've already tested). My guess is that the PFC may be
> significantly better than any of the others (less waste heat on
> the AC side).
>
> Thanks,
> Chuck Hursch
> Larkspur, CA
> NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
> www.geocities.com/nbeaa
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
What data point would you like to know????
You all might expect me to tip my hand in my favor. But from what I
have tested I won't need to do that to impress folks. Heck I have
surprised myself.
I have the data logs, and could do a double blind if you all want.
I have to be very carfull and NOT publish numbers that we havn't checked
with the AC Power lab WAVESTAR software. I bet the other chargers have
not been bench marked.
What is clear is that since our stuff is so flexable on output voltage
and input voltage that You folks have to give me a data point, then I
have to setup a test at that point.
120 VAC into 116 VDC(charged 96) is pretty good, but if you do 240VAC
into 116VDC with a buck enhancer, You get a LOT more losses, while still
getting 7.5Kw into the batteries. Also... losses at 2Kw of charge power,
are a WHOLE lot less noticable than when you are stuffing 75 amps of 116
into a hungry 96 volt pack!!! I just shipped a PFC50 that makes 78.3
amps into 116VDC, while pulling 40+ amps of 240 VAC. This is some
serious amps!!! and the charger did reach thermal cutback. This bummed
the heck out of me. But... the customer is up in the Great White
North... and may never notice.
Still the point is we have our weak points... and I2R losses are heavy
and expensive to reduce. Then again when was the last time you could
pick up a charger that can belt out 75 amps into a 130 VDC or less load?
Most stuff this capable, needs a fork truck for transport.
I have to get a 50 dialed and shipped today, I will try to get some Eff
number from 120 VAC into 72 to 156 VDC loads for a typical PFC20, and a
Buck enhanced one.
Less waste heat on the AC side?? Umm I don't need a bucket of water and
a 100 Ft extension cord???
This gets hard to measure. If I put a AC Kwhr meter on my test bench, I
have a 15KVA iso transformerm and a 7.5KVA 60 amp Variac feeding the
charger rail. There are some really significant losses in this set up.
Heck the transformer gets hot if I leave it on and over 220 VAC without
any load!!!
The AC Power lab software has a line for Line power. This is what we use
for the "incoming power"
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Analog meter and a video camera.
Andre' B. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 12:18 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: EV data acquisition systems
Hi all,
I've been toying with EV data acquisition for a while to optimize my
electric
drag bike. Trying to remember what an ammeter was doing while blasting down
the 1/8 mile doesn't really get it done.
There's a few high dollar solutions out there, but I'm working with a
Microprocessor with 12 bit A-D converters. The code is easy, but
conditioning
signals is the problem.
At this point, I'm analyzing different signal with a scope.
Battery Volts - This one's easy. Nice and smooth.
Motor Volts - I can get PWM voltage, shows duty cycle, at full ON I get
steady
volts. This is usable.
AMPS?
That's where the problems lie. With a 50mv shunt, I get some pretty erratic
signals. Am I correct in saying MOTOR AMPS should be fairly constant, since
the freewheeling diodes are allowing current to circulate even when the
MOSFETs
are off? I do expect BATTERY AMPS to be pulses, as the controller is only
asking for amps part of the time.
I have had nice 'looking' results with a current clamp. I say nice looking
because I think the clamp is missing something, maybe not accurate at PWM
frequencies? Although even if it's not accurate, the clamp is still an
indication of whether amps are going up or down. The precision isn't as
important as the accuracy.
Back to the shunt measurements, that's the method used in E-meters. It must
be
a good method, but I'm missing something they've got. Just plugging RS-232
into an emeter would work, but only outputs every second..
So, are there any proven methods out there for rapidly recording AMPS?
Darin Gilbert
Bad Fish Racing
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Keith Richtman wrote:
>
> At 3:54 PM -0700 12/17/02, VanDerWal, Peter MSgt wrote:
> > >The builders are pretty firm on putting the three 8" motors inline into the
> >>tranny then about 12 inches of driveshaft into the rear end so I think I'll
> >>need to work within the dimensions they give me. Anything along the
> >>centerline is pretty much their domain. Outside of this, however, I'll have
> >>a great deal of flexibility on where I can place the electrics. The
> >>builders feel sure there will be no problems finding room for the 84 batts
> >>with at least 30 of them over the rear end alone.
> >
> >
> >Wow! all three motor inline? In a drag racing application?
> >Drag racing puts way more torque on the shaft than these motors are
> >typically designed for and in your case you're going to have three times
> >"way more torque".
> >
> >How are you planning on overcoming this?
>
> Oh geez, not this again. Peter, check out the archives, this was a
> week long discussion last time. It was determined that the only
> shaft that would be a problem was the rear shaft on the last motor.
> I believe the solution was the have the motor rebuilt with a "input"
> shaft.
I never was completely happy, and now he has 2000 Motor amps on tap.
With all the problems the Silver Bullet, and the Megawatt Monster have
with 3 and 6 motors. I really think there will be difficulties.
Oh well this is racing... things get learned and broken.
I would start with single motor runs, then add the 2nd and third taking
notes time slips along the way.
3 motors and controllers may just be more than the chassis can use. If
so the additional weight is just in your way.
I applaud those who are at least trying and putting stuff together.
There are some pretty big names that were to rule this sport, that have
not even taken a run down the strip.
Come on Steve, let's see it run!!!
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
