EV Digest 6979
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: tesla car .. tango .. motor ?
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) VS: RE: BMS system basic requirements...Re: Cheap
by "Jukka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Fuse recommendation for a 108v pack
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Flooded Nicads?
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: WZ cool advertising was: Zombie Rips into the 11s !!!!
by "Derek Barger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: AC HP or kW
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Adapter Problem
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Yale Electric Forklift
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Yale Electric Forklift
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: How To View These Messages?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: tesla car
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: J150 Battery
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Fastest EV conversion ever!
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Hybrids done right, Re: Would you build if you could buy?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Google Link
by "Dave Wilker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: tesla car .. tango .. motor ?
by "Dave Wilker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Fastest EV conversion ever!
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: J150 Battery
by "Ev Performance (Robert Chew)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) A battery test algorithm that I recently came up with
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) a/c for EVs
by Michael Mohlere <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: tesla car .. tango .. motor ?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Flooded Nicads?
by Rob&Amy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Flooded Nicads?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: tesla car .. tango .. motor ?
by "Dave Wilker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: J150 Battery
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: A battery test algorithm that I recently came up with
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the update John. With you racing the Zombie
hands in Netgain, Working on the Tango and giving
interviews and post on EVDL its a wonder you have time
to go to work and earn money. If Everyone had as much
drive as you do this list would be obsolete and every
one would be driving EV's already. Thanks for all your
hard work.
--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
> I'm very familiar with the Tango, so I thought I'd
> answer a few of these
> questions:
>
> Peekay wrote:
>
> >
> >> i am curious about the motor used by the 'tango'
> >
>
> It uses a pair of direct-drive (through gear
> reduction) brushed
> series-wound motors powered by a mighty Zilla Z2K
> and charged by a
> mighty liquid-cooled custom model Manzanita Micro
> PFC charger.
>
>
> >>
> >> strangely the tango seems quite a dead topic :-((
> >
>
> Oh, I feel slighted :-( I take it, you don't read
> 'all' my posts? I
> recently wrote quite a bit about the Tango when the
> third one I've had
> my hands on passed through for a visit here at the
> Wayland EV Juice
> Bar....you must have missed that one.
>
>
> Ian Hooper wrote:
>
> >IIRC the Tango uses two AdvancedDC 8" motors, one
> for driving each
> rear wheel (independently).
>
>
> You remember incorrectly :-) It uses a pair of '9
> inch' Advanced DC
> motors, not eights.
>
>
> >Pretty impressive performance.....
>
> Yes, indeed! You ought'a drive one! The
> instantaneous launch torque from
> the twin 9s fed with 2000 amps is a face-distorting,
> gut-wrenching
> affair! Commuter Cars' 0-60 estimate of 4 seconds is
> a bit conservative
> in my opinion. I'd say it's in the 3s for sure.
>
>
>
> >I wonder how Commuter Cars are going with them?
>
>
>
> I've had the pleasure to know the Woodbury family
> now for more than 10
> years and have been honored to be a part of the
> development of this
> unique car. The red Tango serial # 0 has been torn
> down, modified, and
> stereo-ized here at the Wayland EV Juice Bar on many
> occasions. Black
> Tango serial # 1 is George Clooney's car and has
> been here as well, and
> I did some special work on it at one of Clooney's
> homes in '05. Tango
> looks mighty sweet in super gloss black! Primer grey
> Tango serial # 2
> (still not yet completed) was here as I said,
> recently and is pre-sold
> to a programmer at Google. It has a custom designed
> and built NiMH
> battery pack. The boys at Commuter Cars are working
> on Li Ion packs,
> too. So yes, things are well at Commuter Cars and
> orders are coming in
> from high dollar types willing to put their
> environmental money where
> their mouths are.
>
> See Ya....John Wayland
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Features are mostly an SW issue and most are already coded modules for internet
servers. They are just implemented in a different solution. Cost is amortized
already with tens of thousands of units or they are open sourced.
As my previous profession i designed systems for telecom company to remotely
upkeep small and mid sized business customers. The CPU is just another server
in internet and controls what ever over it's local CAN bus. Seperate SW modules
do the managing of the specific battery tech installed. Redundancy is applied
in a way that 5 minute down time is allowed annually (service uploads and SW
update precaution). One of the neatest features for me is the very detailed
battery behaviour logs. They are uploaded to servers and from them we might be
able to determine more better methods to manage the cells. These new methods
are then downloaded in to the vehicle cpus.
Capasitors are much better to be compared with. But they are storing electrons
by other means. Lithium ion is the carrier but reguires reactions with
materials to operate.
I got you, Roger. I know you know the essential need of battery management. The
small cell approach we could easily test even further by using my topper level
of the system. We just build up modules. I can do the sw part. Modules can be
made with atmel/pic. You have the modules already ?
Cyclic life is a two bladed sword. You can get a long lifetime but does it
matter ? If the SOH indicaion is good the batts have more value when changing
the car. Right ? Or when the 90 yr old hairdresser finally passes the agient EV
to her grand son... In 2060.. :P~ batts can be a bit different by then.
I think there could be a neat solution around the corner to provide the EVs to
all and cheap. I'll munch the idea through and spit it here soon with another
thread. And this will not make car OEMs happy :)
Jukka Järvinen
As private individual
+358440735705
-- alkuper. viesti --
Aihe: RE: BMS system basic requirements...Re: Cheap
Lähettäjä: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Päivämäärä: 01.07.2007 10:16
Jukka wrote:
> FETs and power electronics are a bit different from organic
> materials.
Yes, true enough; you are perhaps taking me too literally. My point is
that it is difficult to exactly match anything that we connect in
parallel, but that there are techniques for connecting them that can go
a long way toward minimising these sorts of problems.
Capacitors are nearer to your organic cells than to power devices and
proper attention to the connection details can make a significant
difference with them.
> Think about this:
>
> You choose in the assembly similar cells and cycle them. You
> manage to get 500 cycles out and after that you get 50 % out
> of the pack. you open the pack and balance it and after 50
> cycles the balance is off again.
Perhaps I've given you the impression that I am against BMS; this is
absolutely not the case. What I have stated is that if someone connects
many small cells in parallel, it is economically infeasible to try to
implement a BMS for each individual cell in the array. It is absolutely
still necessary to implement a BMS that manages each of these arrays
(macro cell, if you like). Yes, there are some tradeoffs one must
expect with this approach vs using and managing a single large cell in
place of the array.
> You take any QC passed cell with less than 10% tolerance and
> add it in to te pack. You let the BMS to manipulate a reversed
> wearing effect on the cells anf after 500 cycles they are in
> line. With less than 1 % of differences in internal resistance
> and capacity. THEN pack stays over 50% of the original capacity
> over 4000 cycles. Even the hairdresser is happier than EVer.
No, the hairdresser grew old and died before she could get 4000 cycles
on her battery! ;^>
Remember, it [hypothetically] took me over 19yrs to get 500 cycles on
mine.
> You need to know more about the use. Unless you let the system learn
> your driving habits.
>
> I choose to do it in a way that mostly the system works on learned
> behaviour. Only on reguest throug user interface you can choose 100%
> SOC. It can be enabled with SMS and in future through our Extranet
> service. You register and login. Then you can access the system you
> have purchased and even modify the GUI on the screen in your vehicle.
> With certain limitations. Adn you can do it ANYTIME. Nearly
everywhere.
>
> Usability, warranty and safety. System is not just about how
> to balance and keep the worst scenorios out. Agreed ?
It does sound wonderful, but I suspect, overkill for many applications.
If the price is right, having features one (the end user) doesn't really
need isn't a problem. I think your 1000cycles/5yrs/100,000mi, etc.
warranty target is sensible, but as a consumer would not particularly
value paying more for the battery system because of promises of
4000cycles/20yrs/300,000mi, etc. given that battery technology will
march on and prices will drop, and there is a very real possibility that
long before my I try to make a warranty claim the company that sold it
to me will have disappeared.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a 400 amp fuse and 300 amp breaker. When I had 192V with the Z1K I naver
blew the fuse, and only tripped a breaker once
after a rapid series of 0-60 mph runs under full acceleration.
The 400A fuse will be quite sufficient :-)
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Matt
> Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 6:26 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Fuse recommendation for a 108v pack
>
>
> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 20:00:56 -0400, you wrote:
>
> >Hello All,
> >
> >One of our members has a Fiero with a 108 volt pack with 18-GC135 Exides
> >and a DCP Raptor 1200 amp controller. The pack fuse is blown and he
> >would like to tap your recommendations for a replacement fuse.
> >
> >Peter
> >
> >
> I would like some recommendations also. I have upgraded from 96
> nominal to 120 volts. I have the old 400 amp fuse in place. Should I
> upgrade?
>
> R. M. Milliron
>
> 1981 Jet Electrica
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
>
> This machine has been garaged for 17 years.
> I am trying to get it running. Tabitha, my daughter,
> named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black, electric
> and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a friend offering me some flooded NiCads and have a couple questions.
There are at least 2 different setups. One batch is "one rack of 20 large
alcad uhp65 approx. 2" x 6" x 14"" the other batch is 3 racks of 19 cells
each that were used as some form of standby generator starting, although
the generators were purportedly started with air motors. The 3 sets are
unidentified at this time as I only have a picture of them in the rack from
the side but they appear to be about the same size judging from the size of
the other parts in the picture that I do know the size of.
They have been sitting for some undetermined time (years) so are in an
unknown condition. Are they at all interesting? I expect the batches are
nominally 24-28 volt packs which might get to a 72 volt system with the
generator sets or 96-100 with the full mix.
Is there a way to re-commission them if they are "bad" or are these just an
environmental hot potato to run away from?
At 65 ah from what I can guess/extrapolate from the Alcan site, would they
work in anything other than a small scooter or lawn mower?
respectfully,
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 6/30/07, David S <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Better hurry up and install a roll cage or they might shut you down after
that first run with the A123's. :)
The A123's pack that we are loaning the White Zombie is first pack
that we built, not heated so the first and second run will be a bit
slower than normal. First run will be at about 900amps or less this
will heat up the pack. Bring it back into the pits quick, charge for
10min. put in 15 cents worth of electrons. Boost up the amps according
to the temperature in the A123's pack. By the 3rd run you are warm
enough to Crank Up the Amps and see the Zombie fly. You won't want to
miss it.
Derek Barger
Team KillaCycle
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, unfortunately wikipedia is wrong on this one. Wikipedia is created
by individual contributors, and if one supplied incorrect data and
no one to re-check info (on hard to find knowledgeable in the field
person to proofread), it goes online with inaccurate info, and taken by
everyone as indisputable fact.
You can easily measure it: put it on the bench, spin with
any oversized motor and 24-36V fed in it (like 8" ADC) and measure
electric power going in (Battery voltage * current). Subtract
power of free spin of the same motor. You will get net power required.
Average automotive A/C will need ~1.5 hp mechanical power input,
efficient or small one may get away with 1hp. I'm not certain about
ones used in latest mammoth SUVs, but can't imagine more than 2hp going
in. Even if this is the case you can always find "normal" compressor
requiring 1 to 1.5 hp (~1kW) for your conversion.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
AC compressor is supposed to take 5 HP or 4 kW of power off the engine to
function. according to wikipedia.
At 156 volts, that's about 25 amps when loaded.
Wow, that's a chunk of power, though I don't know the on/off cycle time of
the compressor till I actually run it.
Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
...
It looks as if the Siemens shaft is long enough
that it might be an option to cut off the splined section and use a
standard taperlock adapter on the unsplined stub, or you might be able
to buy the coupler from Electro Automotive "off-the-shelf".
With all respect to Roger, DON'T DO IT that way. The smooth part
of the shaft is not meant for it, is not controlled diameter, and
diameter is way too small - the taper lock, no matter how tight,
will certainly slip unless welded to the shaft.
(This is aside from not-technical reason - you loose warranty
on the motor, but this is the choice you're free to make).
I have customer who cut splined portion of the shaft of his
5135WS14 and coupled with the rest of it in his Scion conversion.
Please contact me off list for details.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
saw one of these for sale pretty cheap, what motor do they have? I
looked on the web and the Yale website indicates at least current modes
are AC and 36-48v. could the motor be useful for an EV? thanks, jack
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Jack
You don't give any info to go by, like a model number
of the unit, and or motor. There are hundreds of Yale
forklifts with numerous motor types. I doubt that
you've found an AC lift as they are fairly new and
couldn't see one of those going "cheap" as you say.
Anyway would need a lot more info.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> saw one of these for sale pretty cheap, what motor
> do they have? I
> looked on the web and the Yale website indicates at
> least current modes
> are AC and 36-48v. could the motor be useful for an
> EV? thanks, jack
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware
protection.
http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I like digest mode (but I wish people would stop sending in html or that
the system handled it better, I know that is in the works)
I use mozilla mail and it seperates all the digests into it's own
folder, but I can forward the days digest to my work email or my phone
if I am short on time.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, Search "Motor City" It's a post on the Tesla Motors blog:
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=30
It's very informative!
On 6/30/07, Rob Hogenmiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Motor City?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: tesla car
> Oh, and check out the blog post "Motor City" if you want a great
> explanation of how the motor is controlled and other interesting info.
>
> On 6/30/07, Joseph T. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Three-Pase 4-pole AC electric motor. 90% average efficiency and 8-%
>> efficiency at full power. Should be under technical specs which should
>> be under engineering.
>>
>> On 6/30/07, Rob Hogenmiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > What motor does the Tesla car, can't seem to find that info on the
>> > website?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Is the J150 as reliable as the 6 volt battery?
On 6/30/07, Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
David Roden wrote:
> I've read about these batteries [Trojan J150]. I wonder -
> if they're effectively just two 6v golf car batteries,
> why not use the golf car batteries?
> They shouldn't weigh much more, and will give you more
> flexibility in your battery layout.
Mainly because they aren't 6V GCs merged together, but rather a 6V GC
with its plates divided into 6 cells rather than 3. It's a flooded 12V
battery made from the same plates as the deep cycle 6VGC, but with
roughly half the capacity and 2x the voltage.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's neat! Only, you're battery has been killed!
On 7/1/07, Rob Hogenmiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I like it.
God bless
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Krog" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 10:43 PM
Subject: Fastest EV conversion ever!
> Here's a story of the first 24-hours with my donor car...
>
> On Wednesday, I took delivery of a 1973 Porsche 914 with plans to
> convert it using Electro Automotive's Voltsporsche kit. On Thursday,
> I drove it to work to evaluate it as a donor car. It seems perfect --
> nice paint job, no rust, good working brakes, clutch and transmission.
> A few hundred feet into my home commute, the engine died from what I
> later discovered was a broken fuel pump. I pulled off the road into a
> corporate driveway and rolled to a stop leaving just enough room for
> cars to get by. I knew I truly had my glider.
>
> A minute later, a very irate DHL truck driver blasted his horn at me
> because he couldn't find enough space to get past. Instead of getting
> out and pushing the car in 95 degree heat, I remembered a old trick my
> father told me -- I put it in first gear, released the clutch and
> cranked the ignition key! Slowly but surely, the poor little 12v
> battery and starter motor pushed me forward just enough for the truck
> to pass.
>
> I know that doesn't count as an EV yet, but I had a grin on my face
> nonetheless.
>
> Richard
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Funny you should mention running out of gas.
I try to drive my gasser once a week cause the overzelous cops in this
town have them towed from in front of your house rather clandestinely.
But sometimes, I forget for a few weeks. I have found that leaving a
gallon in it doesn't always last 3 weeks, Darn stuff evaporates! (self
discharge? LOL)
I had to empty the lawnmower to get it to the corner gas station.
Leaving it full seems to evaporate less.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe here?
http://www.google.org/recharge/
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 6:37 AM
Subject: Re: Google Link
Rob> Does anyone have the link to Google that is the official Google
Rob> info on the EV backing they are promoting?
http://www.rechargeit.org/
which redirects to
http://www.google.org/recharge/
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is the drivetrain gear reduction the same unit used on the real HMMWV's?
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 8:50 AM
Subject: Re: tesla car .. tango .. motor ?
Hello to All,
I'm very familiar with the Tango, so I thought I'd answer a few of these
questions:
Peekay wrote:
i am curious about the motor used by the 'tango'
It uses a pair of direct-drive (through gear reduction) brushed
series-wound motors powered by a mighty Zilla Z2K and charged by a
mighty liquid-cooled custom model Manzanita Micro PFC charger.
strangely the tango seems quite a dead topic :-((
Oh, I feel slighted :-( I take it, you don't read 'all' my posts? I
recently wrote quite a bit about the Tango when the third one I've had
my hands on passed through for a visit here at the Wayland EV Juice
Bar....you must have missed that one.
Ian Hooper wrote:
>IIRC the Tango uses two AdvancedDC 8" motors, one for driving each
rear wheel (independently).
You remember incorrectly :-) It uses a pair of '9 inch' Advanced DC
motors, not eights.
>Pretty impressive performance.....
Yes, indeed! You ought'a drive one! The instantaneous launch torque from
the twin 9s fed with 2000 amps is a face-distorting, gut-wrenching
affair! Commuter Cars' 0-60 estimate of 4 seconds is a bit conservative
in my opinion. I'd say it's in the 3s for sure.
>I wonder how Commuter Cars are going with them?
I've had the pleasure to know the Woodbury family now for more than 10
years and have been honored to be a part of the development of this
unique car. The red Tango serial # 0 has been torn down, modified, and
stereo-ized here at the Wayland EV Juice Bar on many occasions. Black
Tango serial # 1 is George Clooney's car and has been here as well, and
I did some special work on it at one of Clooney's homes in '05. Tango
looks mighty sweet in super gloss black! Primer grey Tango serial # 2
(still not yet completed) was here as I said, recently and is pre-sold
to a programmer at Google. It has a custom designed and built NiMH
battery pack. The boys at Commuter Cars are working on Li Ion packs,
too. So yes, things are well at Commuter Cars and orders are coming in
from high dollar types willing to put their environmental money where
their mouths are.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I did that plenty of times with my old 914 when the electronic fuel
ignition computer was failing and it sometimes would not start.
The battery always survived.
On Sun, 1 Jul 2007 2:59 pm, Joseph T. wrote:
That's neat! Only, you're battery has been killed!
On 7/1/07, Rob Hogenmiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I like it.
God bless
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Krog" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 10:43 PM
Subject: Fastest EV conversion ever!
Here's a story of the first 24-hours with my donor car...
On Wednesday, I took delivery of a 1973 Porsche 914 with plans to
convert it using Electro Automotive's Voltsporsche kit. On Thursday,
I drove it to work to evaluate it as a donor car. It seems perfect --
nice paint job, no rust, good working brakes, clutch and transmission.
A few hundred feet into my home commute, the engine died from what I
later discovered was a broken fuel pump. I pulled off the road into a
corporate driveway and rolled to a stop leaving just enough room for
cars to get by. I knew I truly had my glider.
A minute later, a very irate DHL truck driver blasted his horn at me
because he couldn't find enough space to get past. Instead of getting
out and pushing the car in 95 degree heat, I remembered a old trick my
father told me -- I put it in first gear, released the clutch and
cranked the ignition key! Slowly but surely, the poor little 12v
battery and starter motor pushed me forward just enough for the truck
to pass.
I know that doesn't count as an EV yet, but I had a grin on my face
nonetheless.
Richard
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
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Over and over people have asked if a battery is
suitable for use in an EV application. I have the
same question, so I came up with this.
Here it goes for lead acid. Determine how many amps
you pull in your typical cruise mode and what your
overall sagged pack voltage is.
For my car ...
220 Watt hr / mile (on the high side)
at 40 miles / hr
= at cruise 8800 Watts
That is with a 120 V nominal pack, fully charged = 132
V, under this load about 124 V (hot off the charger).
8800 / 124 = 70.9 Amps.
My numbers are a little approximate, so lets call it
an even 70 A on cruise. That's battery amps. Pretty
typical of a low voltage DC system.
So, cruising, I need to pull an average 70 A. I'd
say, on average 80% of the time is cruise, and the
other 20% is acceleration / deceleration. On
acceleration, I pull lets say 350 A. That's the max I
recently concluded was safe to pull off a golf cart
batt. My batts are even worse, but for the sake of
argument lets use 350 A as the benchmark.
Total I need 70 A * 80% + 300 A * 10% + 0* 10%. If I
graphed this very crudely, that would be a step
function. For the sake of averages, it works out to
an average drain rate of 86 A with 70 A typical and
350 A peak.
So, this all makes pretty good sense so far. Can my
battery do it or not?
Here is the test. Put an 86 A load on the battery and
time how long it takes to get to a loaded voltage of
11 V. That's what a typical inverter will do for cut
off voltage. Lets just say for the sake of argument
that it takes 32 minutes to get there. 32 min / 60
min per hour = 0.533 hrs. We were going 40 MPH on
cruise. So, just round it off and call it 40 MPH.
The number will be a little high. .533 hrs * 40 MPH =
21 miles. I'd say the max range on that car is 20
miles to 100% DOD and usable is 15 miles. I'm being
conservative to account for weather and battery aging.
This is just an example for the sake of argument, not
actual data from my test.
Can it pull the 350 A? Here is the tough part. You
need to get the battery to a 20% SOC (80% DOD). Drain
it until the resting voltage is 12 V. If you drain it
loaded to 11 V, you may get lucky and it may recover
somewhere around 12 V. Somehow drain it slow or
charge it a little to get it to 20% SOC. Then, hit it
with a 350 A load for 60 sec. Hepefully your 0-60 is
better than that and you never accelerate hard for
more than 60 sec. Hills are a whole different issue,
but that should have come out in the Wh / mile
calculation. If the battery under load is still above
10.5 V aftr 60 sec, you are good to go. Charge it all
the way back up on a moderately slow charger 6-10 A,
and it is good to go.
Actual expected cycle life for any given battery in an
EV application is a whole different story. I don't
have any way to estimate that other than to ask around
and see what batteries are recommended as good and
what are recommended to stay away from.
I am open to comments or corrections if I have made
any bad assumptions.
I wish I would have done this test on one of my
batteries before I bought a whole pack. Hopefully by
publishing this, it will save someone some heartache
of buying a bad EV battery.
Steve
____________________________________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
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Hello to David and All,
In response to my post regarding the Tango's drivetrain, Dave Wilker wrote:
Is the drivetrain gear reduction the same unit used on the real HMMWV's?
Whoa, I don't know how you made the jump from the skinny little Tango to
the High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicle - aka Humvee, but since
you asked.....no! The Tango's twin ADC 9 inchers are connected gear -to-
gear with the drive axles, and so are the motors of the Humvee, however,
there are no parts between these two machine that are remotely the same.
I 'do' know something about an electrified version of the Humvee though,
as back in '97 Bill Dube and I had the unique (pun later fully
understood) opportunity to ride in the hybrid Humvee in Orlando. Powered
by 4, 100 hp 'Unique Mobility' brushless DC traction motors with a
fifth one used as the primary generator run off the diesel engine, the
thing was unreal! Somewhere, I've got a video taken from our ride inside
the thing.
In the Humvee hybrid I was in, two motors are mounted inboard on each
axle, much like inboard disc brakes are, so there's a 100 hp motor to
drive each wheel.
In the Tango, the motors are essentially 'sidewinders', one with its
reduction set for each stubby rear axle, much the way a Crown pallet
jack is designed, only times two.
See Ya.......John Wayland
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--- Begin Message ---
I have been eyeing a similar pile of these down at the local scrap
yard. Probably 100+ Alcad UHP 55s. My understanding is that there
is a good chance a lot of these can still be good. I believe the
manufacturers recommendation for long term storage is 0V and dry.
Add water, put them through some cycles and a lot of them may come
back. Worst case you should be able to flush them out and replace
the electrolyte with fresh. I guess this works a lot better than
with Pbas as in Nicads the ions in the electrolyte are used only for
charge transport, not as part of the reaction.
All that being said, the ones I found are still sitting at the yard.
Every few weeks I get an urge to go rescue them, but it hasn't
happened yet. Part of the problem is I can't get the numbers to work
out very well. Here is a sample based on the numbers for the HC60P,
which one might assume could be similar to our discontinued UHP55s
and UHP65s.
A 120V string would require 100 cells, weighing 1540 lbs with a
volume of 16.5cu ft. At 100A draw, these should still have a
capacity of ~55Ah (based on 5hr and 1hr rates, using peukert which is
not necessarily valid). The internal resistance of 65mOhm would pull
the voltage down to about 112.2V, so this works out to 4.0Wh/lb, and
374 Wh/cuft. By comparison, a 120V Trojan J105 pack would weigh
10008 lbs, take up 5.6cuft, and be about 82Ah and 112V at 100A. This
is 9.1 Wh/lb, and 1640 Wh/cuft. An Optima D31 pack would weigh
717.6lbs, take up 5.4 cuft, and be about 58Ah and 117V at 100A. This
is 9.5 Wh/lb and 1256 Wh/cuft.
I don't know if Im messing something up, but I've just never been
able to get these to stack up favorably against Pba. Maybe the
military surplus ones that people seem to like stack up better. Last
time I pinged the list on NiCdI didn't really get any comments, I
think people are over them :-)
Rob
On Jul 1, 2007, at 12:33 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I have a friend offering me some flooded NiCads and have a couple
questions. There are at least 2 different setups. One batch is
"one rack of 20 large alcad uhp65 approx. 2" x 6" x 14"" the other
batch is 3 racks of 19 cells each that were used as some form of
standby generator starting, although the generators were
purportedly started with air motors. The 3 sets are unidentified
at this time as I only have a picture of them in the rack from the
side but they appear to be about the same size judging from the
size of the other parts in the picture that I do know the size of.
They have been sitting for some undetermined time (years) so are in
an unknown condition. Are they at all interesting? I expect the
batches are nominally 24-28 volt packs which might get to a 72 volt
system with the generator sets or 96-100 with the full mix.
Is there a way to re-commission them if they are "bad" or are these
just an environmental hot potato to run away from?
At 65 ah from what I can guess/extrapolate from the Alcan site,
would they work in anything other than a small scooter or lawn mower?
respectfully,
John
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Pocket plate NiCd batteries don't have much if any advantage over lead in
specific energy. Sintered plate nicads are better in this regard, but yield
less
cycle life (typically in the high hundreds rather than the thousands of cycles).
Their strength is in long life, aplomb in cold temperatures, lack of damage
from sulfation, and ability to deliver current under load (Peukert's
calculations
don't describe the behavior of a NiCd battery).
Get a couple, try fresh electrolyte, see how it goes.
But yeah, disposal might be a problem if you didn't buy them originally. I
have some ancient Nife nicads that came with a Comuta-Car I bought almost
20 years ago. I've moved them to different houses several times because I
don't know what else to do with them. They just take up garage space.
Someday I may try to resurrect them. Or not. I guess after I'm dead they'll
be someone else's problem. ;-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just asking...Cool.
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: tesla car .. tango .. motor ?
Hello to David and All,
In response to my post regarding the Tango's drivetrain, Dave Wilker
wrote:
Is the drivetrain gear reduction the same unit used on the real HMMWV's?
Whoa, I don't know how you made the jump from the skinny little Tango to
the High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicle - aka Humvee, but since you
asked.....no! The Tango's twin ADC 9 inchers are connected gear -to- gear
with the drive axles, and so are the motors of the Humvee, however, there
are no parts between these two machine that are remotely the same.
I 'do' know something about an electrified version of the Humvee though,
as back in '97 Bill Dube and I had the unique (pun later fully understood)
opportunity to ride in the hybrid Humvee in Orlando. Powered by 4, 100 hp
'Unique Mobility' brushless DC traction motors with a fifth one used as
the primary generator run off the diesel engine, the thing was unreal!
Somewhere, I've got a video taken from our ride inside the thing.
In the Humvee hybrid I was in, two motors are mounted inboard on each
axle, much like inboard disc brakes are, so there's a 100 hp motor to
drive each wheel.
In the Tango, the motors are essentially 'sidewinders', one with its
reduction set for each stubby rear axle, much the way a Crown pallet jack
is designed, only times two.
See Ya.......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can't read your response
On 7/1/07, Ev Performance (Robert Chew) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
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* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
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Hmm, one obvious problem. You are assuming that the battery sag voltage
throughout the entire trip will equal the sag of a freshly charged pack.
It might be better to assume the battery will be at 110-115V through the
trip. Worse case the battery performs as calculated, best case it
performs better.
With your calculations it will most likely perform less than calculated.
> Over and over people have asked if a battery is
> suitable for use in an EV application. I have the
> same question, so I came up with this.
>
> Here it goes for lead acid. Determine how many amps
> you pull in your typical cruise mode and what your
> overall sagged pack voltage is.
>
> For my car ...
>
> 220 Watt hr / mile (on the high side)
> at 40 miles / hr
>
> = at cruise 8800 Watts
>
> That is with a 120 V nominal pack, fully charged = 132
> V, under this load about 124 V (hot off the charger).
>
> 8800 / 124 = 70.9 Amps.
>
> My numbers are a little approximate, so lets call it
> an even 70 A on cruise. That's battery amps. Pretty
> typical of a low voltage DC system.
>
> So, cruising, I need to pull an average 70 A. I'd
> say, on average 80% of the time is cruise, and the
> other 20% is acceleration / deceleration. On
> acceleration, I pull lets say 350 A. That's the max I
> recently concluded was safe to pull off a golf cart
> batt. My batts are even worse, but for the sake of
> argument lets use 350 A as the benchmark.
>
> Total I need 70 A * 80% + 300 A * 10% + 0* 10%. If I
> graphed this very crudely, that would be a step
> function. For the sake of averages, it works out to
> an average drain rate of 86 A with 70 A typical and
> 350 A peak.
>
> So, this all makes pretty good sense so far. Can my
> battery do it or not?
>
> Here is the test. Put an 86 A load on the battery and
> time how long it takes to get to a loaded voltage of
> 11 V. That's what a typical inverter will do for cut
> off voltage. Lets just say for the sake of argument
> that it takes 32 minutes to get there. 32 min / 60
> min per hour = 0.533 hrs. We were going 40 MPH on
> cruise. So, just round it off and call it 40 MPH.
> The number will be a little high. .533 hrs * 40 MPH =
> 21 miles. I'd say the max range on that car is 20
> miles to 100% DOD and usable is 15 miles. I'm being
> conservative to account for weather and battery aging.
> This is just an example for the sake of argument, not
> actual data from my test.
>
> Can it pull the 350 A? Here is the tough part. You
> need to get the battery to a 20% SOC (80% DOD). Drain
> it until the resting voltage is 12 V. If you drain it
> loaded to 11 V, you may get lucky and it may recover
> somewhere around 12 V. Somehow drain it slow or
> charge it a little to get it to 20% SOC. Then, hit it
> with a 350 A load for 60 sec. Hepefully your 0-60 is
> better than that and you never accelerate hard for
> more than 60 sec. Hills are a whole different issue,
> but that should have come out in the Wh / mile
> calculation. If the battery under load is still above
> 10.5 V aftr 60 sec, you are good to go. Charge it all
> the way back up on a moderately slow charger 6-10 A,
> and it is good to go.
>
> Actual expected cycle life for any given battery in an
> EV application is a whole different story. I don't
> have any way to estimate that other than to ask around
> and see what batteries are recommended as good and
> what are recommended to stay away from.
>
> I am open to comments or corrections if I have made
> any bad assumptions.
>
> I wish I would have done this test on one of my
> batteries before I bought a whole pack. Hopefully by
> publishing this, it will save someone some heartache
> of buying a bad EV battery.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
> http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
>
>
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