EV Digest 2377
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: What kind of Hair Dryer for DC Defrost/Heat..
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: For Sale at any Price?...NOT!
by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: What kind of Hair Dryer for DC Defrost/Heat..
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: What kind of Hair Dryer for DC Defrost/Heat..
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Ceramic heating element
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Ceramic heating element efficiency
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Ceramic heating element efficiency
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) liquid vs direct air heaters
by "Gary Graunke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: For Sale at any Price?...NOT!
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Ceramic heating element
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: liquid vs direct air heaters
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) AC Vs DC ratings...
by "Patchem, Eric EM2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Ceramic heating element efficiency
by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Ceramic heating element efficiency - Infrared?
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Ceramics. (What kind of Hair Dryer for ....)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: AC Vs DC ratings...
by "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) [C-Car] Comuta-Van parts for sale.
by "HOLLAND,MIKE (HP-USA,ex1)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EVLN(% Bush: Let them eat smog %)
by josh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Ceramic heating element efficiency
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Heater relays (was liquid vs direct air heaters)
by "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) [C-Car] Comuta-Van parts for sale - not by me - please read
by "HOLLAND,MIKE (HP-USA,ex1)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Was;Ceramic heating element efficiency - Infrared? Electric sailing an' Stuff.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Victor, I got one at KTA Services in Upland CA.
Website is www.kta-ev.com.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: http://www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: What kind of Hair Dryer for DC Defrost/Heat..
> Then, I got to ask exact same question again - what is the source
> of real ceramic heaters or elements, not the $9 ones John mentioned?
>
> Victor
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > John Wayland wrote:
> > > Using a hair dryer works, but it's pretty noisy and crude. If you want
> > > a cheap but still effective heater, why not use a ceramic element or
> > > two? I found a ceramic type heater at Home Depot for just $9...
> >
> > Be aware that you get what you pay for! Many of these el-cheapo heaters
> > are truly junk, if not outright dangerous. They claim "ceramic" but
> > often aren't. The UL markings are forgeries. Half the safety controls
> > that are supposed to be there are missing. Is is really worth risking
> > your car / house / life on a $9 heater?
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> > 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> > Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> > leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> 1sclunn wrote:
>
> > I would like to see all EV's in the album for sale. I know that somebody
> > who puts 500 to 1000 hours into there EV doesn't want to sell it for the
> > price of the parts but by putting the price that they would be happy with
> > say 40k or what ever, they will help other people trying to sell there EV's.
There's something that I do like about this concept. It helps people
investigating EVs to be able to assign a value to them. Right now the whole
concept of value is probably drawn only from a few conversions that are for sale
and may have very motivated sellers.
I would propose that Mike Chancey add a "Value:" designation on the
photo album listings. The field should allow people to post either a price,
or a description of what makes the car transcend any amount of a worthless,
diluted, fiat currency that a government chooses to print, or perhaps both ;^)
That way someone who is checking out the album will learn how valuable these
cars are to their owners, or perhaps find a deal that pleases both them and
the builder. Either way, seeing that next $3000 or $5000 EV might seem like much
more of a bargain that it did before, which I think was the point of all this.
...John
OT comment: It's interesting to note that Greenspan has placed more currency
into circulation than ALL federal printing offices or officials throughout this
country's entire history.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 19:36 21/10/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Then, I got to ask exact same question again - what is the source
>of real ceramic heaters or elements, not the $9 ones John mentioned?
>
>Victor
>
I was able to buy just the elements from a company whose name escapes me in
Canada. Follows is bits from Emails prior to purchace:
CH2700C Ceramic Heater elements
Rated voltage - 120 volt
Rated wattage - 1500 watts at 25 degrees C
1800 watts at 0 degrees C
The buy the element only would cost $20.00 each.
Our fax # is 905-415-9098. Country code is 1 (I'm not sure what you have to
dial before that).
Regards,
Mary Stainrod
Mary Stainrod <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Then, I got to ask exact same question again - what is the source
> of real ceramic heaters or elements, not the $9 ones John mentioned?
The specific ones I have were removed from "Pelonis" brand ceramic
heaters. Pelonis was among the first (if not THE first) manufacturer to
make ceramic heaters. These are the "original design" ceramic elements;
about 4" square and 1/2" thick, and look like a miniature car radiator,
but with 5 electrical connections along one side.
Pelonis seems to have changed to a ceramic element that uses ceramic
disks. I also note that these newer heaters deliver less wattage, and
are made in China. I haven't seen the insides of these newer heaters
(they are rated the same, but actually draw less power by actual
measurement).
It is also worth noting that the amount of heat you get out of a ceramic
heater depends on the airflow. With a wimpy fan and low airflow, their
resistance goes up, and wattage goes down. Many of the cheap heaters
actually draw much less than their rated wattage due to restrictive
airflow and/or undersized fans.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 21 Oct 2002 at 16:38, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Can someone please point me to the source of the ceramic heating
> elements (or consumer products elements are pulled from) people use
> for EV heaters?
I got mine from Randy Holmquist (Canadian EV). That was quite a while ago
and I haven't gotten around to installing it yet, unfortunately.
Many people use elements from cheap $39 home ceramic heaters, but IMO
Randy's are of appreciably higher quality (made in Germany instead of
China). I figure it's such a pain to take the dash apart and fit the heating
element, at least on my Solectria, that I want to use the highest quality and
longest lived parts I can.
David Roden
Akron OH USA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 21 Oct 2002 at 17:40, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Can one estimate how efficient ceramic heaters are in terms of
> converting electric watts into Joules (sorry, BTUs)?
>
> I want to know if I get, say 100V 5A ceramic heater(s) in the place
> of former heater core and blow an air through it, will I get
> more/equal/less heat than if I get 100V 5A water heater, immerse it
> in a small water tank circulating hot water through the stock core,
> and blow equal amount of air through that core?
The more direct the connection between the busy little electrons and the
occupants' bodies, the lower the losses. Probably the ideal heater is heated
suits for the driver and passengers.
If you are going to heat the air in the vehicle, the more efficient way is to heat
the air directly with a heating element of some kind. IMO, the only advantage
to a liquid heater is that it's easier to install because you can leave the old
heater core in place. But it heats up more slowly, and (potentially) wastes
more energy through losses in the tank and plumbing.
David Roden
Akron OH USA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The heating elements convert electricity into heat at nearly 100%.
Transfering that heat to the air is somewhat less.
As in all things the more changes/stages you go through the lower your
efficiency, the hot water system will require more energy imput for the
same amount of heated air.
Ceramic: electricity->hot element->heat air
Water: electricity->hot element->heat water->move water->heat
exchanger->heat air
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Can one estimate how efficient ceramic heaters are in terms of
converting electric watts into Joules (sorry, BTUs)?
I want to know if I get, say 100V 5A ceramic heater(s) in the place
of former heater core and blow an air through it, will I get
more/equal/less heat than if I get 100V 5A water heater, immerse it
in a small water tank circulating hot water through the stock core,
and blow equal amount of air through that core?
I'm talking about battery energy wastefulness of each alternative,
not simplicity or the cost of components. Any other technical
(not practical or economical at this point) cons/pros of each method?
Any info/data, anybody?
Just saying that you install one and it's working fine is not exactly
"data" and won't help to compare.
Thank you all,
Victor
John Wayland wrote:
Hello to All,
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
List,
Can someone please point me to the source of the ceramic heating
elements (or consumer products elements are pulled from) people use
for EV heaters?
The best ones for use in EV heaters that I've found, come from Randy Holmquist at Canadian
EV. Cheaper versions of them are in those inexpensive, usually square-shaped heaters you
can get at hardware stores and as I said in my earlier post, at Home Depot for about $10.
Is it common thing you buy in K-mart or home depot
or is it special item/special store?
Yes, they are very common and are usually badged with something about it being a ceramic
heater. The element itself is about 4 X 5 inches and has a fine mesh look to it. much like
a miniature car radiator. One will give 'OK' heat that will do fine, but two of these
puppies can really crank out some serious heat, very close to the effect of a modern
warmed liquid car heater. I used twin elements in Red Beastie's heater, and it was pretty
much like the factory heater that came with the truck, only of course, it was instant-on
:-)
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
> If you are going to heat the air in the vehicle, the more efficient way is
to
> heat the air directly with a heating element of some kind. IMO, the only
advantage
> to a liquid heater is that it's easier to install because you can leave
the old
> heater core in place. But it heats up more slowly, and (potentially)
wastes
> more energy through losses in the tank and plumbing.
I noted that some of the EV suppliers sell 1500W ceramic heater cores as
well--at least one person has presumably thought about approriateness for an
EV (vs general use).
I also had some notes from an OEVA meeting on heater relays--the note said
to use magnetic blowout relays--the others are a fire hazard. However, I
haven't really found any that have the appropriate DC voltage rating,
especially for a higher voltage (>200V) pack.
Since I in the middle of an insight conversion, the heater is on the list of
things to do. Wayland recommended that, due to the complexity of the insight
climate control, I use a small liquid system rather than the easier
replacement ceramic heater under the dash as he normally does. Currently,
the insight uses a "mix" motor to move a valve to allow varying amounts of
heat in to the system.
My US Electricar S10 truck also has a 1500W liquid system, which works well.
However, it uses 10" by 5" by 8" black box, a 4" x 4" x 7" electrical box,
and a small fluid resevoir. I'll have to take it apart next time I have the
pack apart.
Has anyone else done a liquid system?
Do you need a pump to circulate the water?
Is the electrical isolation more of a problem, given the liquid conductor vs
air?
Gary
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Clunn wrote:
I see your point and having a car that ever time you pop the clutch it
inspires somebody to go electric is something you don't want to sell. (I'll
bet somebody reading your post is thinking about converting one now :-).
But what if somebody brought you a Datsun just like the one you have . What
would you charge to make it just like yours (blue meanie 2) ? Could you do
it for less that 25k ? I think a lot of people after seeing you smoke the
tires would take a Blue Meanie 2 over a ford Think. Do you think that maybe
the ford com is so in-love with there Think that they just don't want to
sell it (ha ha ). I don't know about you but I'm having more fun playing
with my EV's now than I ever did 30 years ago when I was rebuilding gas
cars. Kids today don't have the opportunity to rebuild cars like we did
years ago. Gas is just not fun any more (leaves a bad taste in your mouth
;-( . But converting a car to electric that's something they can do . I'd
like to see EV's become the in thing for high school kids to do. So how
can we promote this hobby ? It's been a year since I had Port Saint
Lucia's (Florida) first EV rally ( next town south of me) so if anybody has
any ideas on how I can make this "the event" lets hear them. I haven't
picked a date so anybody who has a car and wants to come let me know when
you can make it and I'll pick a date when the most people can come.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] www.grassrootsev.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 2:52 PM
Subject: For Sale at any Price?...NOT!
> Hello to All,
>
> 1sclunn wrote:
>
> > I would like to see all EV's in the album for sale. I know that
somebody
> > who puts 500 to 1000 hours into there EV doesn't want to sell it for the
> > price of the parts but by putting the price that they would be happy
with
> > say 40k or what ever, they will help other people trying to sell there
EV's.
>
> While I agree with your concept here, I do not agree that this is a good
idea for
> 'everybody'. Using my favorite car that I own, 'Blue Meanie' as an
example....
> Putting a price on it, as in placing it available for sale, implies that I
am willing to
> let it go for the right price, that I am perhaps wishing for a better EV,
or that it's not
> the pinnacle of design (at least in my eyes), and I think it sends the
wrong message.
> Though some may question why anyone would
> have the fanatical love affair that I have for this now 30 year old
economy car ('72
> Datsun 1200 sedan), it is nonetheless there, and I would never want anyone
to think I'd
> consider selling this car....not for sale!
>
> The era of the early 70's classically styled, clean-looking, tough and
sturdy, easily
> hopped-up, back yard racer, street tough Datsuns was perfect timing for
the young Wayland
> car nut emerging from high school in '69. I don't just miss that era now,
as do some old
> dudes who harken back to the good 'ol days of oldy-moldy music...I missed
it immediately
> when I was still in my early 20's, back when Nissan in one of
automotive-dom's stupidest
> moves, went away from their square-shouldered best-selling Datsun 510's,
the light and fun
> Datsun 1200's, and the rough-riding but oh-so-heavy duty Datsun 520
minitrucks in the mid
> 70's, and instead, brought out boring, nondescript vehicles that lacked
all of the
> aforementioned excitement. The early 80's brought us more boring,
nondescript vehicles
> that in another blunder by Nissan, wore that same corporate nameplate and
lacked the name
> of character 'Datsun'. Yes, I miss the Datsun era...it's one that
evidently, Nissan
> finally admits to missing, too, as they are now capitalizing on the glory
'Datsun' days of
> the early 70's period in all of their recent commercials, fondly showing
the original Z
> Cars, and Datsun 510's tearing up the race tracks! Nissan seems to be
trying to win back
> the hearts of Datsun fanatics with their hot Altima (0-60 in nearly 6
seconds flat)
> series, and now, their new Z Car....too bad they can't swallow their pride
and call them
> Datsuns again! It's also too bad they let Honda take and simply run away
with the market
> that Datsun established long ago...that boy racer, affordable and fun
pocket rocket
> car...you can see the enthusiasm in today's youth as the 'tuner cars' of
the hot import
> scene are where it's at.
>
> Fortunately for me, before they all disappeared, I was able to get a
couple of clean 1200
> sedans, and I've held on to them ever since. I never want to sell my
beloved 1200 (Blue
> Meanie), I never want to see it harmed in any way, and I never lust over
another's EV
> conversion. I've had this cool, fast, and fun EV for many years now, but
each time the
> garage door lifts open to reveal it waiting for me...even as it sits next
to a modern
> machine like my immaculate Honda Insight, my heart still pounds with the
excitement that
> only a cherry condition, 135 HP, 250 ft. lbs. of torque, 300 watt
stereoized, violet pearl
> over royal blue tricked out electric Datsun 1200 can bring to me. When I
go overboard and
> have this desire in excess, I've got that 'other' 1200 to play with, too.
>
> > If your pet project sold you would have some real money to get better
parts
> > and make even a nicer car....
>
> For me, that's not an issue...I already have that 'better car'. Recent
improvements have
> made it even better, too.
>
> For those who've had recent test rides in this car, you'll like what I've
done. Gone is
> the slipping clutch (too many burnoffs in 3rd from a dead stop, I guess),
that I had to
> make excuses for...replaced with none other than the famous 'It Vil Not
Schlipp!' full
> blown racing clutch that was responsible for ripping off the input shaft
of White Zombie's
> former 5 speed tranny. Yes, a few weeks ago I finally did it, and I did it
right. The
> Meanie's lightened flywheel was remachined, and a new competition type,
but more
> streetable than the Zombie's solid copper three prong job, clutch disc was
installed,
> along with that killer 'It Vil Not Schlipp!' pressure plate. Of course, a
new pilot
> bushing and a fresh throw-out bearing were included, too. On the 1-10 fun
factor, it's
> back at a solid '10', as the car now blisters its rear tires at the
slightest provocation.
> Taking off in 2nd gear while mashing down the 'GO pedal' has the 1000 amp
Emeter pegged as
> the tires instantly erupt in white smoke that pours out of the fender
> wells...immature?...maybe, but gawd, what fun! I came around a corner
yesterday, going
> perhaps 10 mph in 3rd gear, and decided to wake up Mr. Raptor 1200...the
car fishtailed
> and smoked the tires for about a block...banging 4th gear, the car
squatted as the 156V
> pack of Optimas (now 5 years old) sagged to about 125 volts but delivered
1000+ amps, and
> the car simply accelerated HARD! It's pretty amazing how much power an ADC
9 inch motor
> can make, and this much power in a light weight car like a Datsun 1200
sedan, is pure FUN!
>
> Another really big improvement has been my rework of the under-hood area
and the inclusion
> of the hopped-up PFC20, that killer Rudman charger! It's really perked up
the Optimas
> being able to hit them with 28+ amps while charging off 240vac. It's also
very cool, using
> a simple twist lock-to-120 vac plug adapter pigtail, to also have the
flexibility to still
> charge off any 120V outlet. I can now blast 9 miles to downtown Portland,
and drive with
> full enthusiasm, knowing that at the downtown located EV charging station,
I can plug into
> the NEMA 14-50 outlet, and jam 28+ amps into the pack and get filled back
up in a hurry.
>
> I've got more improvements coming soon, so there's no reason to ever think
of selling this
> long time EV friend.
>
> See Ya........John Wayland
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Victor;
I bought 3 White Westinghouse ceramic heaters at K-mart @20 bux each, on
sale. Of course they are made in China, but seemed relatively quality stuff.
Two gave their lives as elements, they ended up mounted on an aluminum plate
inside the Rabbit's heater box, nice fit where the old heater core was. I
have a heater contactor with a capaciter across the contacts to quench the
arc when ya shut it off. Spliced the coil of the contactor into the line
that runs the blower motor, so whenya want heat, the first click on the
Rabbits heater motor turns on the motor-contactor for heat. The whole outfit
runs at 20 amps for lavish amounts of heat, instantky. By the time I get my
chord couiled up and stowed aboard, can hop into a warm car.WITH defrosted
windshield. Like tonite, about freezing out, warm ride home from the train.
Don't go through another winter without heat! Do it! Yull be thanking
yourself EVery day ya drive in the cold! The other heater survived as stock,
a great little quiet bathroom heater. But it knows its number is up if I
need another element. Ya hafta be careful that you don't break off the
chintzy tabs on it while diddling with it, setting it up to go in the heater
box. I guess you could series parallel them, with a "Hi-Lo" switch, but I do
my heat regulation just turning it on and off as needed.
Warm thoughts
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: Vince <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: Ceramic heating element
>
> Victor wrote:
>
> > Can someone please point me to the source of the ceramic heating
> > elements (or consumer products elements are pulled from) people use
> > for EV heaters? Is it common thing you buy in K-mart or home depot or
> > is it special item/special store?
>
> I picked some up at the close-out resellers, like Big Lots, Mark's, etc.
>
>
> Vince
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I might start with 220V electric water heater elements. I am not sure
how short they can get though. Also for a magnetic blow out relay, I
assume a DC rated contactor like an EV 200 with a magnet for snuffing
the arc would be what they had in mind. If the inrush on the element
isn't too bad, the contacts might survive, otherwise you might need
secondary switching after the contactor, like a pwm circuit.
Seth
Gary Graunke wrote:
>
> David Roden wrote:
>
> > If you are going to heat the air in the vehicle, the more efficient way is
> to
> > heat the air directly with a heating element of some kind. IMO, the only
> advantage
> > to a liquid heater is that it's easier to install because you can leave
> the old
> > heater core in place. But it heats up more slowly, and (potentially)
> wastes
> > more energy through losses in the tank and plumbing.
>
> I noted that some of the EV suppliers sell 1500W ceramic heater cores as
> well--at least one person has presumably thought about approriateness for an
> EV (vs general use).
>
> I also had some notes from an OEVA meeting on heater relays--the note said
> to use magnetic blowout relays--the others are a fire hazard. However, I
> haven't really found any that have the appropriate DC voltage rating,
> especially for a higher voltage (>200V) pack.
>
> Since I in the middle of an insight conversion, the heater is on the list of
> things to do. Wayland recommended that, due to the complexity of the insight
> climate control, I use a small liquid system rather than the easier
> replacement ceramic heater under the dash as he normally does. Currently,
> the insight uses a "mix" motor to move a valve to allow varying amounts of
> heat in to the system.
>
> My US Electricar S10 truck also has a 1500W liquid system, which works well.
> However, it uses 10" by 5" by 8" black box, a 4" x 4" x 7" electrical box,
> and a small fluid resevoir. I'll have to take it apart next time I have the
> pack apart.
>
> Has anyone else done a liquid system?
>
> Do you need a pump to circulate the water?
>
> Is the electrical isolation more of a problem, given the liquid conductor vs
> air?
>
> Gary
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have seen a couple of posts concerning AC ratings on switches Vs using DC
on them and the switches not lasting as long. Can someone tell me the
difference between the effect a DC current has on a switch and an
equivalent RMS AC current. I guess what I am asking is : what effect does DC
have over AC in switch contact life?
Eric
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have found the best heater is a good winter coat and some boots.
This may sound stupid, but the 25-40amp current draw on my 200V NiCd pack
seems to be more than I'm willing to give up when the winter coat works
just fine.
My wife disagrees, but I just tell her the heater is broken and save plenty
of amp-hours
in the process :-)
Rod
On 21 Oct 2002 at 17:40, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Can one estimate how efficient ceramic heaters are in terms of
> converting electric watts into Joules (sorry, BTUs)?
>
> I want to know if I get, say 100V 5A ceramic heater(s) in the place
> of former heater core and blow an air through it, will I get
> more/equal/less heat than if I get 100V 5A water heater, immerse it
> in a small water tank circulating hot water through the stock core,
> and blow equal amount of air through that core?
The more direct the connection between the busy little electrons and the
occupants' bodies, the lower the losses. Probably the ideal heater is
heated
suits for the driver and passengers.
If you are going to heat the air in the vehicle, the more efficient way is
to heat
the air directly with a heating element of some kind. IMO, the only
advantage
to a liquid heater is that it's easier to install because you can leave the
old
heater core in place. But it heats up more slowly, and (potentially)
wastes
more energy through losses in the tank and plumbing.
David Roden
Akron OH USA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Peter and EV listers
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The heating elements convert electricity into heat at nearly 100%.
> Transfering that heat to the air is somewhat less.
> As in all things the more changes/stages you go through the lower
> your efficiency, the hot water system will require more energy imput
> for the same amount of heated air.
> Ceramic: electricity->hot element->heat air
>
> Water: electricity->hot element->heat water->move water->heat
> exchanger->heat air
What about infrared electric?
electricity->hot element->clothing/skin ?
My own interest is in a 40 passenger EV ferryboat service. I'm
curious about infrared as an option, rather than heating the whole air
volume of the passenger cabin. Off season (early spring and late fall)
I'd only wish to heat the driver and a *few* passengers...
I figured the heating could be "zoned" by turning on/off several
overhead electric infrareds, as needed.
Because the energy storage assumes a full boat, while the
offseasons are always much less than full, perhaps the surplus capacity
would go into heating (via infrareds, as more efficient/zoned), without
an apparent additional power drain (energy switched from propulsion to
heating)
The infrared folks claim additional benefits too, like killing
mildews, etc...
I'm seeing figured quoted like about 90% efficient and 25,000hrs
before replacement. Plus, I guess IR is silent if/as no blower needed
Lock
______________________________________________________________________
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Okay I went to Home D' and got two ceramic heaters for 17$ each. One of them
will fit nicely in the case it came with where the down vent is supposed to
go with a 12vdc fan in place of the AC fan. It could fit both but I'll see
what heat that provides and I already have a 200 watt defroster which worked
very well last year for the front window.
I'll see how that works out. I drove it all last year and just wore a coat
to the station but now it has a new driver with different cooling
requirements. Since the heater doesn't work now she just takes the ICE car
for the 5 mile trip to work :-(
Thanks for all the advice..
Mark Hastings
'83 S-10 EV Blazer
www.geocities.com/evblazer
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>I have seen a couple of posts concerning AC ratings on switches Vs using DC
>on them and the switches not lasting as long. Can someone tell me the
>difference between the effect a DC current has on a switch and an
>equivalent RMS AC current. I guess what I am asking is : what effect does
DC
>have over AC in switch contact life?
In an AC circuit the voltage (and ideally the current) goes through zero 120
times per second (at least here in the USA, 100 times per second most places
overseas).
When you open a contact on a high voltage circuit it usually creates an arc
from one contact to the other. In an AC circuit the arc goes out when the
voltage goes to zero (120 times per second). DC circuits don't go to zero
so there isn't anything to put out the arc, this means that you need to
employ some method in the switch to extinguish the arc.
The two most common methods are distance (too much gap and the arc can't
jump it) and magnetic blow outs. Actually magnetic blowouts just increase
the distance between the contacts by making the arc take a longer (curved)
path.
DC definitely shortens the contact life. If the switch isn't rated for the
DC voltage, it might shorten the life to one activation.
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I have had no luck selling my Comuta-Van so I am going to part it out.
Anyone interested in any of the parts should send me an email with
their offer. The Van is complete except it no longer has the stanard
transmission and the main contactor and low speed relay are missing.
The HV charger only works in a manual mode ( the orginal controller
board died).
For more info contact me at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thanks
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--- Begin Message ---
>>The revised rules, driven in part by the technical and
>>marketing problems with electric vehicles, cut the
>>requirements to 2 percent electric cars (about 4,600
>>vehicles) and a mix of gasoline-electric hybrids and "very
>>low emission" vehicles. The fuel economy of the hybrids
>>would be a factor in how much they count against the
>>electric-vehicle requirement.
>
>Since mileage is directly connected to a manufacturer's compliance
>with the ZEV, there's your nexus. After reading this summary (and
>not having read a word of the actual statutes at issue, by way of a
>warning to the reader) I'd have to conclude that the auto-makers have
>a pretty good case. Of course, the provisions tying mileage to
>compliance with the ZEV may be severable, allowing the law to be
>enforced in a limited way, depending on the precise wording of the
>statute, so even if the state loses, it may not be a total loss.
>And, of course, there are plenty of ways to re-write the statute that
>would not cause a tie-in with vehicle mileage, if that becomes
>politically feasible within the state.
Thx it looks like you got to the tie-in. It's a pity because mileage
*is* related to emissions. Even if one discounts CO2, improving
mileage might often improve emissions problems in the sense that if
you burn less fuel per mile, and if your emissions per unit fuel are
fairly constant whether you're burning lean or not, then you'd have
less emissions per mile. 'Course, those are big ifs, but I think
one's non-CO2 emissions on the balance would be lower with dramatic
mileage improvements. Because of legalities we're all trying to say
they're not related to mileage improvements, but I would have to
somewhat disagree.
I also think that it should be questioned whether different CO2
percentages in the atmosphere inter-act with the other emissions in
subtle ways.... whether it's sort of a package deal if the CO2 on its
own is one thing but inter-acting with the other emissions and
atmospheric conditions (sunlight, etc.) is another matter.
Just drove through LA, and a bit in NYC. Yuck, particularly LA.
They've made progress. They haven't fixed the emissions problem yet.
jl
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----- Original Message -----
From: Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: Ceramic heating element efficiency
> Hi Rod;
Wow! That must be some heater! At those amps, I would think you'd come
in at 10-15 amps @200 volts. Yes I did the dressing for drivin' gig. But it
is tough to give up breathing, been doing it for years, used to it<g>! The
#$%^ windshield fogs up real quick in the cold, I found. EVen if ya can blow
a bit of warm air on the windshield, in fact the CT car inspectiors want to
see defrost action when they check a car. They havya turn onn "Defrost" and
feel to see if anything comes out. Becides, it sure is nice to go out and
turn the heater/defroster on before you set out, melts the snow an' ice.
ASlong these lines sure would be nice to have a heated windshield, like the
newer locomotives have, wires coming off the wires imbedded in the glass.
You don't see them, but they don't ice an' fog up. Guess if ya were doing a
no- holds-barred- EV ya could have something like that.
Seeya
Bob...more hot air on warm air.
> I have found the best heater is a good winter coat and some boots.
> This may sound stupid, but the 25-40amp current draw on my 200V NiCd pack
> seems to be more than I'm willing to give up when the winter coat works
> just fine.
> My wife disagrees, but I just tell her the heater is broken and save
plenty
> of amp-hours
> in the process :-)
> Rod
>
>
>
> On 21 Oct 2002 at 17:40, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> > Can one estimate how efficient ceramic heaters are in terms of
> > converting electric watts into Joules (sorry, BTUs)?
> >
> > I want to know if I get, say 100V 5A ceramic heater(s) in the place
> > of former heater core and blow an air through it, will I get
> > more/equal/less heat than if I get 100V 5A water heater, immerse it
> > in a small water tank circulating hot water through the stock core,
> > and blow equal amount of air through that core?
>
> The more direct the connection between the busy little electrons and the
> occupants' bodies, the lower the losses. Probably the ideal heater is
> heated
> suits for the driver and passengers.
>
> If you are going to heat the air in the vehicle, the more efficient way is
> to heat
> the air directly with a heating element of some kind. IMO, the only
> advantage
> to a liquid heater is that it's easier to install because you can leave
the
> old
> heater core in place. But it heats up more slowly, and (potentially)
> wastes
> more energy through losses in the tank and plumbing.
>
> David Roden
> Akron OH USA
>
>
>
>
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>I also had some notes from an OEVA meeting on heater relays--the note said
>to use magnetic blowout relays--the others are a fire hazard. However, I
>haven't really found any that have the appropriate DC voltage rating,
>especially for a higher voltage (>200V) pack.
Sounds like a good recommendation. Naturally I (being obstinate) did mine a
different way. I use a double throw four pole relay and route the current
through all four poles in series. I also use a snubber circuit (that belt &
suspenders idea).
FWIW I've watched the current (via the e-meter) with just the heater on. In
my setup the initial current starts out at about 2 amps and takes about 10
seconds to climb to 9-10 amps, at which point it is putting out full heat.
FWIW I wired my setup so the fan can run without the element on. I use two
switches. The first turns on the 12V fan and supplies power to the second
switch. The second switch is wired in series to the original thermal switch
from the heater, the original thermostat (now mounted on the dash), and the
relay that controls the HV to the element.
When it gets warm enough the thermostat turns off the element but the fan
keeps running. This helps get the last bit of heat out from the element and
also keeps the windshield frost free even when the element is off. I've
noticed that under some circumstances the windshield will fog up again, even
though the cab is warm, if the fan isn't blowing.
Oh yeah, one final thing. The HV for the heater is also routed through the
main contactors so even if somehow something failed in my heater wiring, I
can still turn it off by shutting down the whole truck.
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--- Begin Message ---
I don't have this car for sale. I'm posting it to the list because of the
threads looking for Commutacar parts (I don't know how well comuta-van parts
match up but I'd guess it'd be worth a message to Tom Snoblen, the guy who
is selling it).
The car is located in Ann Arbor, Mich. I've never met Tom and really don't
know him other than exchanging some e-mails with him about the comuta-van he
has been trying to sell for the past few months. I was considering buying it
as a parts source for my commutacar.
I've never seen his van. I don't have any first hand info about it. Tom
sent me this link which has some photos of the vehicle:
http://members.telocity.com/snoblen/evindex.htm
I hope this is some help for the folks who were looking for Commutacar
parts.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Snoblen [mailto:snoblen@;directvinternet.com]
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 11:44 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [C-Car] Comuta-Van parts for sale.
Hi,
I have had no luck selling my Comuta-Van so I am going to part it out.
Anyone interested in any of the parts should send me an email with
their offer. The Van is complete except it no longer has the stanard
transmission and the main contactor and low speed relay are missing.
The HV charger only works in a manual mode ( the orginal controller
board died).
For more info contact me at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thanks
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: Ceramic heating element efficiency - Infrared?
> Hello Lock and EV listers
>
> >
> My own interest is in a 40 passenger EV ferryboat service. I'm
> curious about infrared as an option, rather than heating the whole air
> volume of the passenger cabin. Off season (early spring and late fall)
> I'd only wish to heat the driver and a *few* passengers...
>
Hey! That sounds like fun! Tell us more about this EV, Electric
Vessel, how big, fast, EVerybody asks "How fast" how far. After all, the QE
2 is electric too.Well, her AC "traction" motors are supposed to be the
world's biggest, but no batteries, just Diseasel engines to make power as
needed, more the merrier-faster. After all she doesn't hafta "Plane off"-
like small boats! Guess the miliage is better than her stock steam turbine
drive she came with, a few retrofits ago.
Of course, think "Displacement hull, like a sailboat. Have had
delightful electric launch rides on the CT river,all you hear is the boat
slipping through the water and all the #$%^& mechanical RACKET from
everybody else out there.
Ct runs a couple of small car ferries, mostly by tradition, ferries
have been at those locations since colonial times, they hate to break
tradition. Of course they keep bankers hours and don't run in winter, but
the distances are short, perfect for an EV, have 2 boats, and keep one on
charge that yu arent using, switch off EVery few "flites" so they both
stayed nice and juicy. Have the hull make contact with the on shore charger
when it pushes into the slip, and a good Mechanical connect so it doesn't
hafta run, like most ferries ,I've seen, running the engines in gear to hold
themselves in the slip. What a waste ,all that water foaming at the stern
while they run in place, even though it is picturesque. Thing only hasta run
about 10 minutes per crossing. HMMM?? Buy the franchise from the state? They
probably would like to get rid of it. They don't make money, EVen though
they charge buck an a half for a car 75 sense per walk -on. State of CT
would lose money if they ran the Casinoes, I'm SURE! They don't, break for
the taxpayers! The "Indians" have that franchise 'round here.Do very nicely,
thank you!
> I figured the heating could be "zoned" by turning on/off several
> overhead electric infrareds, as needed.
>
Howbout painting the Deck over head black or other dark color? Passive
solar? For sunny daze. Change to white in summer.
> Because the energy storage assumes a full boat, while the
> offseasons are always much less than full, perhaps the surplus capacity
> would go into heating (via infrareds, as more efficient/zoned), without
> an apparent additional power drain (energy switched from propulsion to
> heating)
>
Sounds like a plan!
Guess you could heat like hell, while uploading and downloading at the
pier, via shore power? Hundreds of amps in to a water tank for the crossing,
with basebored hot water heat in the cabin?
> The infrared folks claim additional benefits too, like killing
> mildews, etc...
>
Good point, anybody that EVer has had a boat, can appreciate this!!!!!
> I'm seeing figured quoted like about 90% efficient and 25,000hrs
> before replacement. Plus, I guess IR is silent if/as no blower needed
>
Whole new ball game, this EVessel thing, fun thinking about it. Guess
regen braking is a non endity<g>!
Sailya
Bob
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
>
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