EV Digest 2416
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Scooter Build
by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: evercel an Stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Scooter Build
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: LRR tires: Goodyear Integritys vs Invicta GLRs
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Is the solar evergy free? (OT)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Hardware for regen/dynamic braking set up?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Toyota Celicas
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: LRR tires: Goodyear Integritys vs Invicta GLRs
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: All systems go!
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: RAV-4 milestone
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Rudman Regs a Poem.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Scooter Build
by "Robert Salem" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Toyota Celicas
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Hybrid Evercell/AGM pack?
by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Rudman Regs a Poem.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Scooter Build
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Advanced Batteries - Li-Ion Musings
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Amateur_EV_Group/
This should get you started.
Rod
Well, all my research has come up diddly for a scooter that can pull my
weight (320lbs) any real distance.
So in true American fashion, I'm gonna build one. The fact that I have
absolutely no idea what I am doing just makes it better!!
I'm rummaging around in the toolshed for pipe framing and angle iron to
build a body, and I'll likely hit the thrift shops and the Harbor Freight
for wheels and brakes of some kind.
Anyone out there have any small electric motors or controllers that would
work well for this project? I'd be willing to pay a fair price for 'em.
I'd also be willing to pay someone to help me properly design the bloody
thing.
Anyway, thus far I have come to the conclusion that, given my weight and
the
range I'd like to get, I need at least 3/4 horsepower and 48 volts.
So if we say 600 watts at 48 volts that means a sustained 12.5 amps with
surges up to about 30 or more. Not too bad I guess.
So am I on the right track here or is this too low (or high?) powered?
Thanks in advance.
James
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: evercel an Stuff
> Bob Rice wrote:
> > BUT we DID bring Warfield Electric INTO the motor biz for us! Better
motors
> > for ALL of us!
> > >
> >
> > Hi Rich an' All;
> >
> > Good points! Do you think I'm jumping the gun to wanna get some
Evercells
> > for an EV? EVen the tried and true ones like Sheer has in the Honda?
What is
> > he charing with? can I get that setup too. There must be a friendly
charging
> > regimen for these things? I know yur working on it. If I actually BUY
these
> > cells, I'm in line for your charger. can't have one without the other.
Seems
> > like Evercell could use a few test pilots.
> >
> > Seeya
> >
> > Bob
> Yea I see that in the next 6 months Evercells will rule this market.
> They have test pilots, and such, but they still don't have a solid
> sales and distribution group. Hang onto your money until they do.
>
> Hey I have to get a 20 buttoned up and my Butt on a Plane and the light
> are flickering here with 40 MPH gusts and rain and good old Seattle
> Weather. I don't like the power bench bucking and kicking while I am
> installing the Souls of good machines!!!
>
> Later.
>
> Hi Rich;
Thanks for the Insite, oops, sorta slipped out,on Evercells. I wanna
stay on top of this. Big topic at our EAA meeting the other day. We will
want boxes of them, when, like yu say, threy get their sales and
distribution thing together.
Gees! Cantya get yur butt on the TRAIN? Hellova lot safer, in the gusty
weather.Shameless plug for Amtrak! Great to see so many PFC-20's are finding
homes. I think one would be a good investment for my 120 volt Rabbit, and
down the trak, it could be reprogrammed for Evercells? Whayt's delivery
time, etc? I promise it would have a loving home.
Seeya
Bob
>
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi James, I have missed a lot of posts due to being extremely busy. I looked
back at your earlier post and considering you only want 8 to 10 miles range
I can think of two different scooters of the top of my head that can do
that. The first test we did on the new Ego scooter was to put three two
hundred pound people on it to see how it went. One was the editor of
Electric Scooter and Bicycle Magazine. It took off just fine. I've
personally taken a passenger up steep hills in Port Townsend, Washington
with the MoRad 1500 scooter which looks something like the old Vespas. It
has 48 volts and a 1500 watt hub motor. With you on it I'm sure you could
get 15 miles of non hilly range.
Roderick
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-888-EV Parts (387-2787)
Phone: 425-672-7977 Fax: 425-672-7907
18908 Highway 99, Suite B
Lynnwood, WA 98036-5218
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 10:51 AM
Subject: Scooter Build
>
> Well, all my research has come up diddly for a scooter that can pull my
> weight (320lbs) any real distance.
>
> So in true American fashion, I'm gonna build one. The fact that I have
> absolutely no idea what I am doing just makes it better!!
>
> I'm rummaging around in the toolshed for pipe framing and angle iron to
> build a body, and I'll likely hit the thrift shops and the Harbor Freight
> for wheels and brakes of some kind.
>
> Anyone out there have any small electric motors or controllers that would
> work well for this project? I'd be willing to pay a fair price for 'em.
>
> I'd also be willing to pay someone to help me properly design the bloody
> thing.
>
>
> Anyway, thus far I have come to the conclusion that, given my weight and
the
> range I'd like to get, I need at least 3/4 horsepower and 48 volts.
>
> So if we say 600 watts at 48 volts that means a sustained 12.5 amps with
> surges up to about 30 or more. Not too bad I guess.
>
> So am I on the right track here or is this too low (or high?) powered?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> James
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some believe the automaker's push for hybrids will commit
large orders for the EV components they use: LRR tires,
batteries, AC drives and their power electronics, etc.
But there are other forces at work. The Prius and RAV4 EV
use Bridgestones LRR tires which I have heard are not a
good as Invictas and self-erase (have a short life).
Since the Japanese are the only ones (at this time) really
keeping their word to produce cleaner and more efficient
vehicles, the power of their large quantities buys, effects
where and whom they buy from. Generally, Japanese buy
from Japanese, just as US buy from US.
If the EVs, hybrids and other coming oil-based vehicles
were made in the US, the Japanese vehicles could use
US made components.
Someone would POST that even the quantities of the hybrids
are too small. But the numbers that have joined and are
joining the hybrid discussion groups are larger than the
EV groups combined. This is because the hybrids are
available, and the EVs (except for the RAV4) are not.
There are large Oil / Automaker forces in motion. It isn't
as simple as the market needs to be larger for EVs. If
Oil / Auto is quashing EVs, and promoting everything else,
the numbers aren't the forces to be concerned with.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the EV ascci art above)
=====
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U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, thanks Otmar. I understand return on investment concept,
and the fact that people almost always looking at the money balance
at the end.
All I was saying array produces free energy in terms that you
don't "feed" it with any consumables to run it.
I looked at the array as a hardware, not as an investment.
Actually, I regret posting my question, please ignore it.
Victor
Otmar wrote:
>
> >The hardware to produce the energy is not free (yet), no question.
> >
> >Once purchased though, the energy itself is free because it cost you
> >no more to waste it all day long vs. not spending a single Wh of it.
> >
> >And the beauty of it is if you waste it all day long, no more
> >earth resources consumed vs. if you waste nothing.
> >You recapture light which otherwise is wasted in your roof anyway.
> >
> >Like a car - you bought it for $20k, and *driving* (vs. not driving)
> >is free now (except consumables/maint/wear) - you're still the same
> >$20k short and can save nothing by driving more, less or not at all.
> >
> >What am I missing in *concept* (no nit picking please)?
>
> 1) The initial cost, which also might be paid over a long time with a
> loan, is an ongoing expense. If I own a more efficient car, I can
> purchase less capacity and therefore pay less every day. Would you
> buy a $40k car if it appeared and performed the same as a $20k car? I
> think not. It's the same for renewable energy.
>
> 2) My solar array, like many others like it, is tied to the utility
> grid. Excess energy goes in to the grid and offsets energy produced
> by other means.
>
> I believe the whole cause for EVs is made by looking at the big
> picture, the life cycle costs. It's the same for renewables, the fact
> that all the costs are up front does not change the fact that PV
> solar power still costs more than grid electricity.
>
> -Otmar-
> http://www.CafeElectric.com
> Mailto:otlists@;evcl.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cliff Rassweiler wrote:
>
> Victor,
>
> > Cliff, since one inverter controls front wheels regen and another - rear
> > wheels, and both take input from common regen pot, think of possible
> > adjustments
> > you may need to implement, if front of the car regens harder (or softer)
> > then
> > the rear.
>
> When the DAQ system is up and working, we plan to take the signals from the
> throttle pots, read them in the computer and output seperate signals to the
> controllers. This will allow all sorts of modifing of the signal. Combined
> with the wheel speed sensors, we can do a form of ABS and traction control.
> A totally mechanical back up Emergency Disconnect within reach of the driver
> allows us to overrule the computer if there is a problem.
>
> For early testing, I have been thinking about a trimpot between the throttle
> pot and one controller. This might allow us to bias the regen front to rear.
>
> Cliff
>
> www.ProEV.com
Trim pot (as a part of the voltage divider) is fine, but is fixed.
Inverters accepts (viper) voltage as an input signal, not resistance.
So you can dynamically trim the voltage with external means and achieve
your ABS (or any other) behavior.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Alan Batie wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 11, 2002 at 12:55:33PM +1300, Walker, Lesley R
wrote:
> > As far as I can see, the Tercel is pretty much the same thing
as a
> > Starlet, maybe a little smaller. There are lots of them
(newer
> > ones) in the car yards here but they're all automatics,
imported
> > second-hand from Japan.
>
> I think the Tercel was the successor to the Starlet; I had the
4wd wagon
> model (even an '85), and when the engine went in it, I wanted
to convert
> it, but it was an automatic, and a 4wd, so I ended up getting
rid of it.
> It's a great car, if a little underpowered in the ICE version.
Both my mother and friend back in Denver had the 4WD Tercel
wagons, both manuals. They were pretty good snow cars, although
not as good as a true 4WD truck in terms of ground clearance and
getting high-centered on snow banks. My mother's was an '86, and
the friend's was an '87. My mother's car was very peppy, once it
got wound up to about 3000 rpm, then it seemed to come on cam and
take off. The friend's was a bit of a slug, and I've never
understood why the difference. Anyways, my mother's car met an
untimely end; as far as I know my friend's car is still up and
running. Friend was wanting to know if she could convert it to
an electric. While there would probably be plenty of places to
put batteries, I felt the donor car was probably a bit heavy to
start with, and you'd probably end up with a lead sled, on top of
which you would have to deal with all the 4WD stuff. Makes me
wonder how one of those Subaru 4WD cars would do as a conversion.
Probably same issues.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
> On 11 Nov 2002 at 8:20, Sharkey wrote:
>
> > What I think this confirms for us once again is that there is
no suitable
> > substitute for the Invictas. Too bad the EV market is such a
peanut whistle
> > sized share of the tire business.
The Michelin Proxima RRs as found on the EV1 would be nice,
although pricey, if they were still made. Hey, maybe we can
convince GM, since it's going to crush or museum-ize many of its
EV1s, to give us the tires. How much liability is there in
putting some used tires out on the market? We could tease these
cars out by their parts and reassemble them...
>
> The real problem is that fuel efficiency in cars is neglected.
Yep, and it's because most people don't really care. Amongst my
acquaintences, even amongst many of my EV-owning friends, I'm
really the only one who writes down the gallons used and odometer
reading when I fill the gas car with, well, gas. Both for my '86
4Runner (22-25mpg) and my mother's '97 Saturn SL1 (>40mpg?).
>
> Fifteen years or so ago, when the automakers were still selling
a fair
> number of land yachts, they did everything they could to get
their CAFE up.
> That included LRR tires on everything that rolled. If they
could get
> another 7% on top of the 36mpg that an Escort already got, that
would offset
> part of another Crown Vic.
>
> So it wasn't that hard to find LRR tires that worked quite
nicely with EVs,
> even though they'd been meant for high (make that highER)
efficiency dino-
> burners. The Invicta GLR was in fact developed as an OE tire
for Toyota or
> Honda, IIRC, not as a replacement tire.
My neighbor's '94 Honda Civic came new with Invicta GLRs. He
ditched them when they started wearing out, and he did not like
their handling. Interesting that his Honda and my electric
Rabbit sat next to each other down in the carports with these
same tires.
>
> These days the big cars are just about dead, replaced with even
porkier SUVs
> and pickups. The automakers are worried about CAFE in the
"light truck"
> lines, not in the car lines.
>
> Nevertheless, there are still a few LRR tires being made,
though probably
> not in the same range of sizes we had 10 years ago. But if you
are going to
> find LRR tires, it will be almost surely in an OE range, not
replacement
> range; when Joe Sixpack puts new tires on the family Blazer or
Caravan, he
> looks at price and appearance and maybe tread life, not rolling
resistance.
When I was hunting for low rolling-resistance tires to replace my
worn-out Invictas, some that I remember finding were the Michelin
X-ONE, Michelin XGT4 (sic?; I've seen these mentioned as also
being on the EV1), Michelin Energy (sic?), Bridgestone Potenza
RE92 (as found on the Insight and Prius), Continental CH-95
(supposedly these are the larger variant of the little
Eco-Contact as found on the Ford Th!nk), and maybe some others.
Alas, many of these were not available in 13" size.
>
> So anything you get will usually be a special order item. Or
you can go to
> a boneyard and try to find good, low mileage used OE tires.
>
> BTW, I used to run Invicta GLRs. They were the noisiest tires
I've ever
> used, bar none, and I didn't think they had very good traction
(some people
> have reported different results; it may depend on the size).
But they did
> roll and roll, seemingly for days.
I agree on the noise (would seem that low rolling resistance
would equate with LESS energy-using noise). I would also wonder
if a P185/70R13 Invicta (if still made) would be quieter than the
P175, since the weight loading would be less (and I think Bill
Egan mentioned this as a factor in noise). I also agree on the
traction - anything wet and the tires would want to slip. With
the recent rains in CA being the first my new Integritys have
experienced, I find them much better than the Invictas: the best
test is on my steep hill with the wet manhole cover - the Invicta
on the RF corner would spin up everytime, while the Integrity
slips hardly at all.
I'm thinking about doing a rolling resistance test in the
"standard" parking lot with the Saturn. This car seems to roll
and roll at 25mph on its OEM Firestones (G680s? - have to check,
and the auto-trans may be pushing a bit), and with its mpg
(mentioned above), I begin to wonder how they stack up. Heck, I
suppose I could be sneaky and transfer them to the Rabbit for the
test and cut out some of the variables... ;->
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Brandt wrote:
> Well, after much effort, I finally have the last system
operational - the
> battery heater system. It appears to be working beautifully so
far, but it
> is still in the testing phase.
>
> As we all know, when the pack is split into several chunks (4
in my case),
> each chunk tends to have its own thermal requirements due to a
number of
> things. You can fit more insulation around some than around
others, there
> are differences in thermal masses, etc. I have a 10 battery
chunk in the
> back, three batteries together on the firewall, five where the
radiator was,
> and one in front of the brake master cylinder by itself. I
needed at least
> 4 zones.
>
> I am using KTA services battery heater pads, because no one I
contacted was
> able to beat that price, either in similar construction (mica
sandwich), or
> in the silicone mat style. They seem to work well.
>
> KTA sells a nice control system to go with their heater pads,
but it costs
> over $200, and only controls 1 zone, although it has a high
current handling
> capability. I wanted a system as close to "set and forget" as
possible, but
> was not willing to pay the price for four of these systems. I
thought it
> would overheat some batteries, while letting others get too
cool. These
> systems were also fairly large, physically, and it would have
been difficult
> to mount them in the space available.
I really appreciate you making this post, since I have just about
the same situation in my Rabbit: four zones and KTA heaters. I
may follow in your footsteps, since the best control I have at
this time is "manual". My heater wiring for the front pack is
done, the rears not; I have the wires in the wiring loom under
the car for power and control. I have to hook it all up
including a control system. I would like to do all the
controlling via computer, but maybe the controllers you mention
would be one way to go, or an intermediate step.
Has anybody had any issues going on with heaters - I wonder if
the bottom of the battery might get a lot hotter than the top,
and whether that could cause differentiation vertically that
might cause problems later. Lead has a pretty high heat
capacity, so a lot of heat energy might soak up into the bottom
of the battery before the top gets much. However, the
temperature difference might not be that great because of the
heat capacity. ??
>
> I used four 5CX-142 controllers from McShane
> (http://www.mcshaneinc.com/html/5CX-140.html), homepage at
> www.mcshaneinc.com. These are available in a variety of styles
and power
> handling capabilities (up to 15 amps - The most I needed was
350 watts / 120
> volts = 3 amps - I got the 6 amp rated version), and were
between $40-$60
> each. A thermal sensor is required for each. These are
available in a
> variety of style (more on that later), for a variety of temp.
ranges. They
> range from $10-$20 each. I added a second AC input just for
these heaters.
[snip]
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Hanson wrote:
> >
> > Utility's EV Fleet Is First Anywhere to Log 8.5 Million Miles
> >
> > LOS ANGELES, Nov. 7 /PRNewswire/ -- The odometer on one of
Southern
> > California Edison's (SCE) electric vehicles (EVs) rolled over
to 100,000
> > miles today -- the farthest any plug-in EV anywhere has
traveled in
> > real-world driving applications.
> snip
> Ahem, I put 120k on my Electro-Metro in the 90's and close to
87k on my
> cheese wedge (Commuta-Car) in the 80's. I'm still driving about
300 miles
> per week to work etc. in my converted 96' Geo tracker.
Here's another example of home-built (or conversion) EVs being
blown off. The OEM boys, mass media, etc. seem to have no regard
for all the miles and experience that have been acquired in these
vehicles. Did you write a "letter to the editor", if that's
possible, to whoever promulgated this "farthest" statement?
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well it just shows my level of understanding. I think I would be happy with
a way to charge equally. I charge at night so the batteries are the same
temp. Problem is if you charge after running. I see the problem. Some of
the batteries will be at different temps. Oh well I am actually doing ok.
Thank goodness for these regs. All my batteries were within .05 volts or
less while charging. I'd say that was pretty good. It just took a couple
of weeks of charging and babysitting. I take it that has been dubed theLee
Hart method. Lawrence Rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: Rudman Regs a Poem.
> What are you asking for?
>
> Do you want the system controller to set the reg voltage limit the same on
> all the regs?
> That causes a problem if the batteries are not the same temperature.
>
> Do you want the system controller to set the 25C point on all the regs and
> then it is locally adjusted by the reg? That causes problems with testing
> them because they will not go to the voltage commanded because of the
local
> temperature variations.
>
> Do you want the system controller to read the temperature of each battery
> and adjust the threshold accordingly? The controller would then need to
> display the temperature and setpoint of each reg so that the user could
> verify the reg is regulating correctly. This requires a level of
complexity
> that could easily exceed the $50 per node cost for the first several
> customers. The Mk 3 may be under that cost per node but the system
> controller is not that well defined yet. This is the way all the various
> temperature compensation coefficients can be managed. I expect this in the
> future, but not in the next year.
>
> I would be pleasantly surprised if they became available in the next year
> though.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 8:22 PM
> Subject: Re: Rudman Regs a Poem.
>
>
> > I wish that were so. I am using both and they seem to have simular
> > tendancies. Now I'm not talking alot but it seems that the .02 to .03
> > hundredths of a volt will allow a weak battery to stay down. The temp
> here
> > in San Francisco has been raising each night for the last few nights and
I
> > had one reg go bad and a few other set a little high and low and behold
> this
> > one weak battery takes all night(7 hours of charging) to come up to
> voltage.
> > This only after adjusting all 30 mixed regs mk 1c mk1d and mk IIs down
> from
> > 10.12 or 10.13 to 10.10. If it is cold I have to go the other way. I
> have
> > been watching this pack for a few weeks now and after replacing a couple
> of
> > batteries I have a very nice battery experience going. Hopefully
tonight
> > with the new reg in and all the regs adjusted again. I will solve the
> > problem with this one last battery that is a little slow to come up. I
> > guess what I am saying is will there ever be a reg that you can state
the
> > voltage limit and it will be the same every time at every temp. and
won't
> > cost 50 bucks each. They can do it in music with a quartz controlled
> > metronome. What would it take or are the mk IIIs on this line?
Lawrence
> > Rhodes....
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 4:32 PM
> > Subject: Re: Rudman Regs a Poem.
> >
> >
> > > You must have Mk 1 regs... The Mk 2 regs go the correct direction.
> > >
> > > Joe Smalley
> > > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > > Fiesta 48 volts
> > > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 7:34 AM
> > > Subject: Rudman Regs a Poem.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Well they do there job but the climate changes. Them milder nights
> make
> > > them
> > > > crazy. Just a couple of hundredths up they go and a straggler goes
> low.
> > > > Readjust all thirty and Mr. Ohms law comes to duty. With no where
to
> go
> > > > this little pup comes up. Like fireflys in the night. Such a
> delight.
> > > > Flashing like a school of fish or birds in flight. It's so right.
> The
> > > > timer clicks and they have their night. Dialing in is nice but what
> of
> > > the
> > > > digital era. It's enough to make a fellow sweara. The B & W goes
one
> > way
> > > > Rudman the other. In the cold they go down and the heat they go up.
> > > That's
> > > > not the way to train a pup. Temperature sensitive and feed back
hay.
> > > > That's the only way, corrected for temperature OK......Will the
Mark
> > III
> > > > see this day???? A poem by Lawrence Rhodes....Apologies to every
poet
> > > ever
> > > > born and to anyone else offended....
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there a MoRad 2000 ??
or did it just not make it to market ??
Robert Salem
81 vw pickup "ELECTRK" 240 volts 11 kostov
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: Scooter Build
> Hi James, I have missed a lot of posts due to being extremely
busy. I looked
> back at your earlier post and considering you only want 8 to 10
miles range
> I can think of two different scooters of the top of my head
that can do
> that. The first test we did on the new Ego scooter was to put
three two
> hundred pound people on it to see how it went. One was the
editor of
> Electric Scooter and Bicycle Magazine. It took off just fine.
I've
> personally taken a passenger up steep hills in Port Townsend,
Washington
> with the MoRad 1500 scooter which looks something like the old
Vespas. It
> has 48 volts and a 1500 watt hub motor. With you on it I'm sure
you could
> get 15 miles of non hilly range.
>
> Roderick
>
>
> Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
> Your Online EV Superstore
> www.evparts.com
> 1-888-EV Parts (387-2787)
> Phone: 425-672-7977 Fax: 425-672-7907
> 18908 Highway 99, Suite B
> Lynnwood, WA 98036-5218
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 10:51 AM
> Subject: Scooter Build
>
>
> >
> > Well, all my research has come up diddly for a scooter that
can pull my
> > weight (320lbs) any real distance.
> >
> > So in true American fashion, I'm gonna build one. The fact
that I have
> > absolutely no idea what I am doing just makes it better!!
> >
> > I'm rummaging around in the toolshed for pipe framing and
angle iron to
> > build a body, and I'll likely hit the thrift shops and the
Harbor Freight
> > for wheels and brakes of some kind.
> >
> > Anyone out there have any small electric motors or
controllers that would
> > work well for this project? I'd be willing to pay a fair
price for 'em.
> >
> > I'd also be willing to pay someone to help me properly design
the bloody
> > thing.
> >
> >
> > Anyway, thus far I have come to the conclusion that, given my
weight and
> the
> > range I'd like to get, I need at least 3/4 horsepower and 48
volts.
> >
> > So if we say 600 watts at 48 volts that means a sustained
12.5 amps with
> > surges up to about 30 or more. Not too bad I guess.
> >
> > So am I on the right track here or is this too low (or high?)
powered?
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > James
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date:
10/31/2002
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Starlet was smaller and lighter than any Tercel. Rivaling the vererable
Datsun 1200 and Chevy Sprint. I believe it was also rear drive but not
certain. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Batie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: Toyota Celicas
> On Mon, Nov 11, 2002 at 12:55:33PM +1300, Walker, Lesley R wrote:
> > As far as I can see, the Tercel is pretty much the same thing as a
> > Starlet, maybe a little smaller. There are lots of them (newer
> > ones) in the car yards here but they're all automatics, imported
> > second-hand from Japan.
>
> I think the Tercel was the successor to the Starlet; I had the 4wd wagon
> model (even an '85), and when the engine went in it, I wanted to convert
> it, but it was an automatic, and a 4wd, so I ended up getting rid of it.
> It's a great car, if a little underpowered in the ICE version.
>
> --
> Alan Batie ______ alan.batie.org Me
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ / www.qrd.org The Triangle
> PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A \ / www.pgpi.com The Weird Numbers
> 27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9 \/ spamassassin.taint.org NO SPAM!
>
> We've got all the youth we need, how about a fountain of smart?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi guys,
All this talk of Evercells has got me thinking
( usually a bad thing to do! ;-)
What about using a small-capacity pack of Hawkers
or other decent, stiff AGMs, to buffer a larger
pack of Evercells, so the "low-voltage" guys can have
their cake and eat it too?
This way, the small AGMs would provide extra
current to help during acceleration, and could be
recharged from the Evercells during other times.
( by "low-voltage" I mean usual DC conversion voltages,
e.g. 120v, 144v, 156v etc. )
The specifics of the idea:
I have the chance to buy a used Raptor600 controller.
Seems like this would be great for a Mini, with something
like an 8 inch motor. ( fun! fun! )
This beast has a voltage limit of 156 volts, so high-voltage
strings of batts are a no-no. I'd like to get more range
than 156v of Optimas can give, but don't want to break my Mini
by overloading it with lead! So the thought went through
my head of using the following:
Small 156v pack of AGMs, maybe 15(ish) Ah.
Bigger 156v pack of Evercells, maybe 40 or 60 Ah.
PFC-20 charger, and multiple double-pole contactors.
It works like this
PFC-20 charges the batteries when plugged into AC power.
( regs will feature somewhere I'm sure )
When driving though, the extra contactors reconnect the
PFC-20 so it draws from the Evercells and recharges the AGMs.
AGMs are kept as close to 80 or 90% full as possible,
and get topped off when the vehicle is recharged.
( this would have to be done by some kind of micro -
- Rich, can the PFC-20 be controlled by external signals,
such as digital pot chips? )
Basically, the PFC-20 does double-duty as both a charger,
and as a big honkin' DC-DC. ( is this even possible, Rich ? )
If the AGMs are sized right, you might be able to halve the
peak currents the Evercells see during accelerations
( e.g. 600 battery amps becomes
300 Evercell amps and 300 AGM amps )
I guess this'll depend on the ratio between the AGM batteries'
internal resistances and those of the Evercells....
What do you guys think?
Richard Bebbington
Electric Mini pickup
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well I did spend 900 bucks on regs for 2200 bucks wortha well lets be honest
finicky batteries. I am using a B & W. Guilty as charged. With my stick up
the butt approach I have balanced the batteries and with one still comming
up slow but comming up none the less I drove the car 30 miles and the 120 v
pack went down to 123v. Not too bad. I have to thank you for creating such
a good product that is also user modifiable. I have piggy backed the boards
with resistors and made them work for my purposes. Most of the MKIIs didn't
need modification and as the batteries have come closer together. Things
have gotten better. I'm thinking the next pack won't be bargain batteries.
They were no bargain in time and scorched regs. I have sort of a unique
situation. I am just wishing for some way of saving my back from this micro
management of my batteries which did work but was very time consuming. If I
had better batteries I am sure I wouldn't have had to do the babysitting
thing. All the regs do go the same way. It is amazing how stable they are
once they are all set. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 12:05 AM
Subject: Re: Rudman Regs a Poem.
> You won't want this Reg. You want the reg and the charger to drift in the
right
> direction as the temp of each battery changes. This would be perfect.
> The Mk1s didn't drift, or drifted very little. The Mk2 drift the "Right"
> direction for Lead acid. They can be tailored to drift on a known slope.
> We can adjust the slope for Evercells hot or cold but not both. In the
last few
> nights of Evercell testing I am not certain that Temp comp is needed.
> Your 8 volt Delphis are just about the worst Ev Battery I have come
across,
> it's almost impossible to keep them in line. Trying to Keep a reg within
10 to
> 20 Milli volts is foolish. This is not needed, and a waste of your time
and
> efforts. That a $20 Reg can be adjusted to this level is amazing.
> The Mk3 that are Micro based will be set able to the regulation point
and
> the Drift temp comp offset table. All this fine adjustment will be a waste
of
> efforts unless we find a affordable temp sensor that is stable over time
and
> totally accurate on it's temp voltage slope. I think you are asking a
$1.00
> sensor for Space grade stability. You can't afford a Reg that does this
> reliably.
> Crystal clock oscillators are by their nature rather stable. But that
is
> expected with solid state crystals. Still the good ones cost. 100ppm is
cheap of
> you divide down a 10 Meg crystal to 10Khz. You can't do the same thing
with a
> 10K NTC thermistor. The Micro will have a finite resolution limited to
its ADC
> 8 bit channel, and the quality of the resistor divider and the sensor
> thermistor. You may have a nice digital read out of what looks very right,
but
> the real numbers will be different. It will depend on the aging and
calibration
> skills of the assembler producer. AKA Sheer or ME.
> I already spend 15 to 20 minutes tuning and test every Reg Mk2 the
leaves my
> hands. Frankly that's way out of line for a $30 buck product. There is way
too
> much labor involved in each Reg for me to make a decent profit. It's a
> necessity,. and a matter of pride. This is also why I have user
adjustable
> pots, if you don't
> like how I tuned it up , then adjust to you liking.
> The Mk3s will have the ability to self learn and self calibrate them
selves,
> hopefully safe time in the test and tune quality control step of
manufacturing.
> I still have not seen one work as envisioned. But I hear they are sucking
data
> at the moment.
> A spot on set reg is NOT what we need. Been there done that. Your
batteries
> will never be the same on any charge cycle. This all degrades into a Gray
area,
> what is needed and how to get it becomes a matter of what you want to
spend and
> what you need to spend to get the job done.
> What's the JOB ??? Is a $100 dollar reg cost effective???
> A $20 reg protecting a $200 Optima was the founding concept.
> I don't know if having a $50 Reg to protect a $40 battery is a cost
effective
> solution.
>
> It's starting to look like a $1500 dollar charger is better money spent
than
> cheap batteries with $500 worth of Regs and a $500 charger. You can do
more
> safely with a programmable charger than a programmable dissipater of OVER
charge
> energy.
>
>
>
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> > I wish that were so. I am using both and they seem to have simular
> > tendancies. Now I'm not talking alot but it seems that the .02 to .03
> > hundredths of a volt will allow a weak battery to stay down. The temp
here
> > in San Francisco has been raising each night for the last few nights and
I
> > had one reg go bad and a few other set a little high and low and behold
this
> > one weak battery takes all night(7 hours of charging) to come up to
voltage.
> > This only after adjusting all 30 mixed regs mk 1c mk1d and mk IIs down
from
> > 10.12 or 10.13 to 10.10. If it is cold I have to go the other way. I
have
> > been watching this pack for a few weeks now and after replacing a couple
of
> > batteries I have a very nice battery experience going. Hopefully
tonight
> > with the new reg in and all the regs adjusted again. I will solve the
> > problem with this one last battery that is a little slow to come up. I
> > guess what I am saying is will there ever be a reg that you can state
the
> > voltage limit and it will be the same every time at every temp. and
won't
> > cost 50 bucks each. They can do it in music with a quartz controlled
> > metronome. What would it take or are the mk IIIs on this line?
Lawrence
> > Rhodes....
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 4:32 PM
> > Subject: Re: Rudman Regs a Poem.
> >
> > > You must have Mk 1 regs... The Mk 2 regs go the correct direction.
> > >
> > > Joe Smalley
> > > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > > Fiesta 48 volts
> > > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 7:34 AM
> > > Subject: Rudman Regs a Poem.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Well they do there job but the climate changes. Them milder nights
make
> > > them
> > > > crazy. Just a couple of hundredths up they go and a straggler goes
low.
> > > > Readjust all thirty and Mr. Ohms law comes to duty. With no where
to go
> > > > this little pup comes up. Like fireflys in the night. Such a
delight.
> > > > Flashing like a school of fish or birds in flight. It's so right.
The
> > > > timer clicks and they have their night. Dialing in is nice but what
of
> > > the
> > > > digital era. It's enough to make a fellow sweara. The B & W goes
one
> > way
> > > > Rudman the other. In the cold they go down and the heat they go up.
> > > That's
> > > > not the way to train a pup. Temperature sensitive and feed back
hay.
> > > > That's the only way, corrected for temperature OK......Will the
Mark
> > III
> > > > see this day???? A poem by Lawrence Rhodes....Apologies to every
poet
> > > ever
> > > > born and to anyone else offended....
> > > >
> > >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You might want to build a battery box as a seat and frame to weld wheels to.
You could make a feet forward machine. One row of lets say 8 batteries or
less. Use scooter components. It would have great range and good aero
because you would be laying back a bit.
http://www.voidstar.com/bff/images/recped.jpg here is an image of what I am
talking about. Notice the frambelow his body. Perfect for battery storage.
Simple and fun to drive. Use a Curtis 1204 and an A89 motor or maybe one
just a size smaller. Just a thought. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 10:51 AM
Subject: Scooter Build
>
> Well, all my research has come up diddly for a scooter that can pull my
> weight (320lbs) any real distance.
>
> So in true American fashion, I'm gonna build one. The fact that I have
> absolutely no idea what I am doing just makes it better!!
>
> I'm rummaging around in the toolshed for pipe framing and angle iron to
> build a body, and I'll likely hit the thrift shops and the Harbor Freight
> for wheels and brakes of some kind.
>
> Anyone out there have any small electric motors or controllers that would
> work well for this project? I'd be willing to pay a fair price for 'em.
>
> I'd also be willing to pay someone to help me properly design the bloody
> thing.
>
>
> Anyway, thus far I have come to the conclusion that, given my weight and
the
> range I'd like to get, I need at least 3/4 horsepower and 48 volts.
>
> So if we say 600 watts at 48 volts that means a sustained 12.5 amps with
> surges up to about 30 or more. Not too bad I guess.
>
> So am I on the right track here or is this too low (or high?) powered?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> James
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Davidson wrote:
>
> Victor,
>
> Great that you may start carrying them. Will you be getting the Thunder-sky
> cells/batteries or from a different supplier?
Direct from Thunder-sky. I wouldn't run ahead of train, it's long way
to establish this. they are slow on responses
> How much do you know about the BMS built into the 36 and 42 volt monoblocks?
Nothing until I get specs.
> My fear is that they are designed for the new cars coming out with the
> higher voltage system and are not made to be strung in series.
They are, no car uses just one battery. But I don't know details yet.
>... as that would tremendously simplify things.
>
> My desire is to build a car with the most range I can get.
Nothing will beat Li chemistry then (kWh/weight).
Either LiIon or LiP.
> I figure if I can fit in as many 200AH cells as your system can handle, I
> should have phenominal range.
It's not a limitation of my system - it's suspension/space
in your car and your wallet. They make 500Ah modules which will give
you 500 miles range - conservative estimate.
The problem will be charging time and cost.
> I'm probably 2 to 3 years away from building my dream car, but am learning
> as much as I can so I can do a first-class job. I can probably match the
> RAV4 range with the NiZn, but would like to do better if I can.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Dave Davidson
> Laurel, Maryland
> 1993 Dodge TEVan
I see NiZn as the step up from PbA, but only as a back up plan if LiIon
are not realistically available.
The chemistries are (best to worst):
1 - LiIon/LiP
2 - NiMH/NiNaCl
3 - NiCD
4 - NiZn
5 - PbA
Note, 2 to 4 are all Nickel based. (3 and 4 may swap places in future).
If going 5 notches up is doable, I see no reason invest in one notch
step up. But this is just my personal take on the issue.
Victor
--- End Message ---
