EV Digest 2479
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: crank.jpg.jpg OT a bit
by "James Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: New US battery model? Nawaz Listening?
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) I just got Rod Hower's reply to Bob Rice
by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: liquid heater tanks
by Peter A VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) sorry! Re: I just got Rod Hower's reply to Bob Rice
by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: crank.jpg.jpg OT a bit
by "Chad Peddy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: crank.jpg.jpg OT a bit
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: New US battery model? Nawaz Listening?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: crank.jpg.jpg OT a bit
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Insight conversion. Was: liquid heater tanks
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: OT - Re: hydrogen economy
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: crank.jpg.jpg OT a bit
by "James Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Really OT - Re: hydrogen economy
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: liquid heater tanks
by "Gary Graunke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) SAFT NiCads (was: Coolant pump choice?)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) SAFT NiCads, Charging, (was: Coolant pump choice?)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: SAFT NiCads, Charging, (was: Coolant pump choice?)
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) EV History.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Insight conversion. Was: liquid heater tanks
by "Gary Graunke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Engineers and technicians (was: OT: more substance, tone down
the style)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: L91-4003, Max RPM's?
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Charging, (was: Coolant pump choice?)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: SAFT NiCads, Charging, (was: Coolant pump choice?)
by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
CRUMBS!
http://www.james.f.rice.btinternet.co.uk/crank.jpg
look at the size of that!
(She said)
It's got rungs to get from the bottom to the top!
(She said)
lol - I wasn't expecting that
James
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: crank.jpg.jpg OT a bit
Hi James;
Gees! I thought there was a link to click on? Duh! I think the Listserv
shucks them from the message? i'll try again
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: James Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: crank.jpg.jpg OT a bit
> send me the pic Bob - I've got some web space to host it on... Post a link
here
> as soon as it's up...
>
> James
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 8:08 AM
> Subject: crank.jpg.jpg OT a bit
>
>
> Hi All;
>
> Heres a crankshaft shot for a new hybrid car. Wonder where they got
all
> the cute little guyz to inspect it?<g>! Was forwarded to me by a guy at
work
> that knew that I like Big machinery. I think it is an engine for the Big
> Inch pipeline to pump. Guess What? Oil for EVerybody elses cars.Would
likwe
> to see the rest of it before they put it together.
>
> Diseaseling along
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
>
>
> * LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That page shows a US battery model I had not seen before
model ahs mins L W H lbs
US-1800 201 100 10 1/4 7 1/8 11 1/8 56
If Nawaz is monitoring the list, I would be interested in his thoughts on
this battery in a conversion.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob,
You mean to tell me that you don't even know what a PDF
file is!!! You eeeeeeediot!!! Why, everyone knows that
PDF is Portable Document Format. A very high percentage of documents use
this format on the web since the reader is free.
http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep.html
Rod
> Bob Rice wrote:
>
> > Hi Rod;
> >
> > Gee! Thanks. I use it as a expression, but the thought has crossed my
> >mind. Btw what's a PDF? I've been missing something?
> >Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I'm working on adding a heater to my insight conversion (in progress).
> I plan on using 3 commodity water heater elements (240V at 1500V)...
> My question is, what materials do folks use for the tank?... I was
> thinking of 4" diameter ABS PVC pipe with end caps, perhaps with a
> metal lining inside. 3/4" OD copper pipes would let the coolant in
> and out, and I'll be using a small 12VDC pump rated to 210 degrees F.
> Thoughts, concerns, or recommendations?
Remind me again why you don't want to use a ceramic cube? One cube
should be adequate for the tiny cabin space on an Insite.
I have a single cube on my Toyota pickup, I got up about a week ago to
find the temperature around 3 degrees (brrr) and all the windows covered
in a thick layer of frost.
Since the truck was still on charge (warming the batteries) I just
turned on the heat and went back inside. The charger can put out 15
amps and the heater only draw about 10 so no power came from the
batteries.
Anyway, I went out about 7 minutes later to find all the frost gone and
the truck warmed up to the point where the thermostat had turned off the
ceramic element. I'd guess the element shut off after three or four
minutes.
The point is that ceramic cubes work pretty darn good and would probably
be a better solution to a water heater system. Sure you need to do some
work under the dashboard, big deal.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Bryan wrote:
>
> Bob,
> You mean to tell me that you don't even know what a PDF
> file is!!! You eeeeeeediot!!! Why, everyone knows that
> PDF is Portable Document Format. A very high percentage of documents use
> this format on the web since the reader is free.
> http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep.html
> Rod
Oh Gawd, I'm so sorry....
That was meant for Roderick Wilde.
Talking about how his partner Bob treated me when I
didn't instantly recall what a PDF file was some years ago.
Gonna go crawl under a rock now,
...John
PS. Since this is on the entire !@#$% list now,
here's the first message I sent to Rod:
-------------------------
Hi Roderick!
I hope things are going well. I just read this on the list,
where Bob Rice said:
> Gee! Thanks. I use it as a expression, but the thought has crossed my
> mind. Btw what's a PDF? I've been missing something?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Bob,
> > "in my book", Do you have something published or on PDF?
> > I would like to read it.
This brings back fond memories of Jerome! Mean Bob asked me
something about PDF files, and although I knew what they were, they
weren't something that I used an awful lot at that time. So I asked
him what they were, much as Bob Rice has done here. You should have
seen the look he gave me as he said incredulously: "You don't know
what PDF files are!!!" I think Mean Bob lost any last little shread
of respect (ha), that he might have ever had for me at that point.
Of course when he said that they are the files that Adobe Acrobat
uses, I of course immediately remembered what they were, as I had
viewed them on many occasions over the years, along with a host of
other file types. BTW, last night I finished loading the latest
version of Acrobat and am about to read a PDF file. :^)
Seeya,
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's a ship engine
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: crank.jpg.jpg OT a bit
> CRUMBS!
>
> http://www.james.f.rice.btinternet.co.uk/crank.jpg
>
> look at the size of that!
>
> (She said)
>
> It's got rungs to get from the bottom to the top!
>
> (She said)
>
> lol - I wasn't expecting that
>
> James
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 4:58 PM
> Subject: Re: crank.jpg.jpg OT a bit
>
>
> Hi James;
>
> Gees! I thought there was a link to click on? Duh! I think the Listserv
> shucks them from the message? i'll try again
>
> Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: James Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 11:40 AM
> Subject: Re: crank.jpg.jpg OT a bit
>
>
> > send me the pic Bob - I've got some web space to host it on... Post a
link
> here
> > as soon as it's up...
> >
> > James
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 8:08 AM
> > Subject: crank.jpg.jpg OT a bit
> >
> >
> > Hi All;
> >
> > Heres a crankshaft shot for a new hybrid car. Wonder where they got
> all
> > the cute little guyz to inspect it?<g>! Was forwarded to me by a guy at
> work
> > that knew that I like Big machinery. I think it is an engine for the Big
> > Inch pipeline to pump. Guess What? Oil for EVerybody elses cars.Would
> likwe
> > to see the rest of it before they put it together.
> >
> > Diseaseling along
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
> >
> >
> > * LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 14 Dec 2002 at 11:58, Bob Rice wrote:
> Gees! I thought there was a link to click on? Duh! I think the Listserv
> shucks them from the message? i'll try again
Don't waste your time! It'll just get stripped off by the listserver. The
list doesn't allow attachments (which this would have to be) because of the
possibility of viruses being spread that way.
In fact, plain text and no attachments has always been the rule on the EV
list. In addition to the virus issue, some users read the list with non-
graphic and / or slow connections, in some cases paying by the minute for
connect time. For someone like this, spending money to download huge
messages with content he can't read is pretty frustrating.
So, please, no attachments. Thanks.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 14 Dec 2002 at 9:46, Electro Automotive wrote:
> model ahs mins L W H lbs
> US-1800 201 100 10 1/4 7 1/8 11 1/8 56
When I got my first Comuta-car battery pack back in 1988, I called local
battery vendors for prices. Some of them mentioned a slightly smaller and
lighter battery for a few dollars less than the usual 105-minute GC-2
battery. The capacity they quoted was lower than is given above --
something like 85 minutes, IIRC -- but then almost all the capacities are
higher today.
I believe the BCI designation was GC-1, though that might have been one
manufacturer's model number.
I'll be curious to read what Nawaz says about this battery, too.
David Roden
Akron, Ohio, USA
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The question can arise whether with the development of such tech-
nological means of communication as radio, film, and the daily
press, freedom of thought is possible at all. Does this not mean
constant infection with whatever ideas are in circulation?
-- Czeslaw Milosz, 1942
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You guys didn't see this picture on TV?
GM engineers working on the next Silverado Pick up truck engine :-)
James Rice wrote:
CRUMBS!
http://www.james.f.rice.btinternet.co.uk/crank.jpg
look at the size of that!
(She said)
It's got rungs to get from the bottom to the top!
(She said)
lol - I wasn't expecting that
James
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: crank.jpg.jpg OT a bit
Hi James;
Gees! I thought there was a link to click on? Duh! I think the Listserv
shucks them from the message? i'll try again
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: James Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: crank.jpg.jpg OT a bit
send me the pic Bob - I've got some web space to host it on... Post a link
here
as soon as it's up...
James
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 8:08 AM
Subject: crank.jpg.jpg OT a bit
Hi All;
Heres a crankshaft shot for a new hybrid car. Wonder where they got
all
the cute little guyz to inspect it?<g>! Was forwarded to me by a guy at
work
that knew that I like Big machinery. I think it is an engine for the Big
Inch pipeline to pump. Guess What? Oil for EVerybody elses cars.Would
likwe
to see the rest of it before they put it together.
Diseaseling along
Bob
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Have you shared the details of your conversion plan to the list
(I apologize if I have missed it)? The Insight has a very light
suspension and a payload capacity of only 350 lbs. My Insight is
overloaded with just me and my wife in it, to say nothing of the
dog (gonna have to put the dog on a diet). There is a noticable
difference in ride and performance when it is overload. The ICE
is only 125 lbs, IIRC, and the tranny less than 100 lbs. I can't
imagine how you can accommodate motor, controller and batteries
within the GVW of this little puppy, let alone a water based
heater system. Do tell. You have some suspension tricks in mind?
I echo concerns of other list members regarding overcapacity of
your electric heater element. (unless you live in Nunavut). My
friend Ken Norwick has 2 1500 watt ceramic elements in his Saturn
in Calgary, and it's plenty warm for him in that cold place.
I've got 2 for my Citroen, but they'll be wired so I can use only
one of them when possible to save power. If that's not enough,
I'll replace my beret with a touque!
Mike Hoskinson
Edmonton Alberta
P.S. I just noticed that you didn't mention your pack voltage.
240 volt 1500 watt elements might not be so bad at 72 volts!
Gary Graunke wrote:
I'm working on adding a heater to my insight conversion (in progress). I
plan on using 3 commodity water heater elements (240V at 1500V) in a
triangle pattern.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I definitely agree that fuel cells are distracting attention for
conventional EVs when lots of progress has been made in the last 10
years on EVs and batteries. Fuel cells are a *long* way from being a
deployable, let alone economically viable, solution for on road vehicles.
Seth
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Peter A VanDerWal wrote:
> > Even on a mass scale batteries are a better solution than hydrogen
> > (using current technology).
>
> It's been said that the Perfect is the enemy of the Good. People fail to
> adopt a Good solution because they are waiting for a Perfect one to come
> along. While they wait, they keep using a Bad solution.
>
> This is what I see wrong with hydrogen-fuelled cars. It isn't perfected,
> so we can't actually implement it. The auto companies are using hydrogen
> as a Perfect solution to steer us away from EVs, which are a Good
> solution we can use now.
>
> > And I agree the thrust was on decentralization, another (generally)
> > bad idea. Decentralization increases costs and reduces production
> > efficiency.
>
> Some kinds of generation work best when decentralized. Wind and solar
> require large area collectors, which are really lots of small collectors
> anyway. They depend on local weather conditions, so it smooths out the
> peaks and valleys in power production to spread them out geographically.
> Efficiency is not a big factor, since there is an excess of wind and
> solar energy available at most sites. So they can be located close to
> where the power is actually needed, to minimize transportation losses.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After transmission losses and tuning to meet emissions regulations, they expect
100bhp at the wheels and 500 Gallons to the mile!
;^D
James
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: crank.jpg.jpg OT a bit
You guys didn't see this picture on TV?
GM engineers working on the next Silverado Pick up truck engine :-)
<CUT FOR BREVITY>
James Rice wrote:
http://www.james.f.rice.btinternet.co.uk/crank.jpg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> If we had high efficiency solar power, and high efficiency electrolysis
> and high efficiency fuel cells then this idea might be workable. My
> impression is that were are AT LEAST 50 years away from this technology.
Actually, I thought of one situatin in which the hydrogen economy might make
a little bit of sense.
Bear with me here, because this is going to get a little bit odd.
Southern Cali.
Here's the situation: Currently SoCal has a water supply which is basically
dipping a long straw into the Colorado river, and another into NoCal. The
problem with this is that it seems to be depleting the Colorado to the point
where the Mexicans aren't able to use it for irrigation any more, not to
mention shifting the weather patterns in really strange ways.
Southern Cali has no shortage of water off its coast, but it's all salt
water.
In the meantime, SoCal has this power shortage because the EPA will only
permit it to run many of its plants some of the time, because of the smog
issue..
Those who know me know where this is going already.
Sell the government on the idea that the aquaducts are a major terrorist
weak point. [because, really, they are. Even though they have fantastic
security and very sophisticated monitoring, a really determined terrorist
who was willing to die could almost certainly knock them off line]
Get said government to shell out about a billion dollars for solar panels,
place them on a giant raft (or a bunch of little ones) and use them to power
electrolosys. [who cares what the efficiency is, the power is free]. You'll
have to figure out how to rinse the salt off the electrodes on a regular
basis, but these are implimentation details...
Burn the hydrogen and oxygen generated in some of those peaker power plants.
Redesign the plants so that all the water is recaptured from the combustion
chamber. [The nice thing about hydrogen is it burns really cleanly] [I don't
even want to hear anyone TALK about fuel cells - how much would a megawatt
fuel cell cost again? It's cheaper to just add more solar cells and pump out
more watts of hydrogen. Besides, this requires very little modification to
the power plants and could probably be online in a few years]
Viola! SoCal no longer needs to use water from the colorado [a nice gesture
might be to 'put back' as much as we used to take, running the aquaduct
system backwards], and you get some nice clean power as a side benefit.
What this has to do with EVs, I can't imagine, though - except it's the same
kind of pro-technology forward thinking that should have everyone in SoCal
driving one. ;-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, looks like I need to go all-metal. But where to find the
tank--coffeepots, surplus stores, RV stores--so far the best I've found is a
one gallon paint can! I'll keep looking, but I was hoping someone already
had something that they were happy with and could recommend. Yes, I realize
that most people replace the heat exchanger with a ceramic core, but our
local concensus was that staying with liquid would be easier for the complex
Insight climate control.
I don't plan on using all 4500W at once. To have an AC capability, it seems
easier to just get another element that to switch between AC and DC. Thus
the third element.
The other two elements are to allow some flexibility with the pack voltage.
Some of my near term choices are not available (or just becoming available),
and I'll be using a temporary pack until the batteries are available and I
have battery boxes that can accomodate them. I can use just one element for
240V or less, or put them in series if I get all the way up to 312V.
My US Electricar S10 has liquid heating at 312V and 1500W, and that seems to
be adequate for west of the Cascades Oregon (I have a nice ridge separating
me from the windy Columbia Gorge that often chills east-side EV'ers John
Wayland and Victor Tikhonov). So I can get by without heat, but I definitely
need defrosting/defogging in our wet but temperate climate. However, I
suspect that the insight interior may be a bit larger than the S10 cab, so I
could go to 3000W if necessary. The actuall wattage will probably be an odd
value depending on the pack voltages.
Thanks for the tip on the pump--I'll check out automotive sources.
To prevent pressure build up, I was planning a small plastic reservor (the
usual automotive variety) of coolant that comes in the return side. I
thought of sensing no liquid condition, but don't have a sensor in mind.
I currently plan on using a contactor (I was planning on a Czonka III, but
perhaps I'll try a Czonka II after list reports) to control the DC, with one
or two .33uF 600VDC capacitor(s) in parallel with the contacts for a snubber
circuit. I'll also have a 600VDC fuse rated at 12A in the DC circuit (maybe
one for each side). If the pump gets overworked, it will likely blow the
fuse, and that could also disable the contactor.
I was planning on a thermistor for a temperature sensor, with a small
circuit to open the 12V going to the contactor and AC relay coils. I guess I
could also use a regular water heater thermostat as a backup, but they have
a disclaimer warning not use them with tanks under 6 gals.
The other thing that I have thought about is detecting ground fault when the
element should short to the surrounding case. This is not a problem for the
AC, assuming it has GFCI. The DC part may be a problem, however. I'm not
sure that my Siemens AC controller checks for this. (My S10 truck
does--that's why it's not running at present). I would like to know if the
heater is the culprit--pull the fuse and drive on.
Thanks again for your valuable feedback.
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: liquid heater tanks
> Gary Graunke wrote:
> > I'm working on adding a heater to my insight conversion (in progress).
> > I plan on using 3 commodity water heater elements (240V at 1500V)...
> > My question is, what materials do folks use for the tank?... I was
> > thinking of 4" diameter ABS PVC pipe with end caps, perhaps with a
> > metal lining inside. 3/4" OD copper pipes would let the coolant in
> > and out, and I'll be using a small 12VDC pump rated to 210 degrees F.
> > Thoughts, concerns, or recommendations?
>
> My first thought is that 4500w of heat in one small space is a LOT. I
> would never put this much heat in anything but a metal container!
> Plastics will melt and burn!
>
> Second, even running only two elements (3000w), it will be easy for it
> to boil water. Your 210 deg.F rated pump is not going to be adequate.
> Look for pumps rated for automotive engine coolant, which can easily hit
> 230 deg.F.
>
> Third, give a LOT of thought to safety. What if it runs low on water?
> What if a hose kinks, restricting the flow? What if a switch fails and
> the heating element is stuck "on"? You need fail-safe shutoff systems
> for all of these, PLUS a backup system in case the primary system fails.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 05:05 AM 12/13/02, you wrote:
Out of curiosity, are you getting Saft 100Ah modules or something different?
That is the plan. When all the dust settles (and the bill is paid)
the Wabbit should have the same performance, but should go 70 miles, or
perhaps more. Also, the batteries will last virtually forever. I should
never have to replace a battery again.
I wish they were cheaper, however. =^O
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:17 AM 12/13/02, you wrote:
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:
> I plan to install water-cooled NiCads in the Wabbit
Are these the SAFT MRE's? If so, do you have a source of them other than
new/list price from SAFT? Or did you find some surplus water-cooled ones
made by someone else?
I'm in slow motion discussions with SAFT for a pack for my truck so this
is very timely.
SAFT 100ah water cooled. Brand new from the dealer. Ouch! I wish I
could find them surplus like others have, but no such luck.
>>>> Charging <<<<<
I should add that it is very important that you choose a charger
that will deliver the correct algorithm. With batteries this expensive, you
don't want to mess them up with the wrong charge profile. I plan to follow
the SAFT recommended chare profile to the letter.
I see lots of folks not following the manufacturer's charge
recommendations. Often, they think they are being more gentle, or babying
the batteries. Ironically, this can reduce battery life rather than
increase it.
AGM batteries and these flooded NiCads have something in common;
the negative plate does not charge as well as the positive plate. This
means that when the voltage comes up at the end of the charge, and the
battery appears "full" the positive plate is charged, but the negative
plate is NOT fully charged. You must then push in an over charge to
complete the charge on the negative plate.
For the SAFT flooded NiCads, you must put in an extra 15% charge.
For AGMs, like Optima, you have to put in something like 5% overcharge.
If you don't do this, the battery will slowly lose capacity. This
is because the negative plate is getting further and further behind the
positive plate. You can actually ruin lead-acid battery by doing this. If
you think about it, it's as damaging as leaving the battery partially
discharged for a long time.
I talk to folks and they tell me they don't want to put in the
(Optima) recommended over charges 2 amps for an hour because it makes the
batteries vent slightly. They feel they are damaging the batteries by
gassing off electrolyte. However, by not doing the overcharge, they are
saving electrolyte, but they are causing invisible damage instead.
It is all a compromise. You must gas off some water to bring the
negative plate up to full charge. There is no real choice. If you don't do
it, you will end up with low capacity batteries that have a full supply of
water. If you do it too much, you will prematurely dry out the batteries
that have good paste on the plates. If you do it just right, like Optima
suggests, you will get the maximum number of cycles at full capacity.
Basically, you will run out of water at about the same time the paste is shot.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 4:08 PM -0700 12/14/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
AGM batteries and these flooded NiCads have something in
common; the negative plate does not charge as well as the positive
plate. This means that when the voltage comes up at the end of the
charge, and the battery appears "full" the positive plate is
charged, but the negative plate is NOT fully charged. You must then
push in an over charge to complete the charge on the negative plate.
Thanks Bill,
Battery chemistry is not my strong point, but I'm wondering is there
some external way to determine if the negative plate is fully
charged, Voltage, Impedance or some such?
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The first really successful electric automobile was the carriage built by
William Morrison of Des Moines, Iowa, in 1890. Morrison's car used high,
spoked wagon wheels to negotiate the rutted roads of America, and an
innovative guidance system which included patented rack-and-pinion steering.
Morrison's car was capable of running for 13 consecutive hours at 14 mph.
Much of the car's success, however, was attributable to the promotional
efforts of Harold Sturges, secretary of the American Battery Company.
This is better than most modern golfcarts. Lawrence Rhodes......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been taking pictures, and I plan to put up a web site as soon
as it is running (and, of course, the EV album)!
Basically, I'm using Victor's smallest AC drive. It puts out 92 ft lbs
of torque (slightly more than the 79 manual or 89 CVT). With a 240V pack, I
should have 55 KW, slightly more than the 54.4 the Insight puts out at 5700
RPM. I have decided to go without a clutch, and will probably fix it in 2nd
gear (initially, I'll try different gears for experimentation), since at
10000 RPM I would be going 100-110 mph in 2nd--a bit fast for my planned
street use. I started with a Canadian manual transmission Insight with A/C
(no warranty in the US, but not a problem, I said...).
So far, I've got an adaptor plate, coupler, motor mount done so the
power train is there. We rev'd it up--no vibrations or noises. For the
moment, the axles are not connected to the wheels. I'm mounting the
accelerator pot, vacuum pump, cooling pump, and (if I get it figured out)
heater tank and controls. The contactors and 300A fuses will be close to the
batteries.
In the back, I plan on using the IMA controller and battery areas for
a 40"L by 21" W by 10" H battery area. I also plan a 33"L by 15" W by 10" H
battery box in the gas tank area under the car. However, this latter box
will take some good mechanical engineering to mount, since the twist beam
suspension element is close to the chassis mounting points.
Weight is always a problem--I have taken out over 418 lbs (the
engine/IMA/flywheel is 200 lbs), and my motor is 92 lbs and inverter 57 lbs.
The original GVWR is 2280 lbs, with front GAWR of 1320 and rear of 990 lbs.
For the time being, I'll be running a lighter pack in just one battery box.
The rear springs are easy to upgrade, so I'm hopeful that if the rear GAWR
can be brought up to 1320 (same as the front), I'll be in reasonably good
shape with a vehicle weight somewhere around 2338 lbs (728 of it batteries).
(If I get my S10 running on Evercell NiZn MB50's, I'll use the extra 600 lbs
it saves over the 1710 lbs of 42AH Hawkers to haul things--my Insight will
be just for commuting).
Given the size of battery areas, the battery options are:
15 Hawker 42AH for 180V and 510 lbs (first temporary pack).
26 Hawker 42AH for 312V and 884 lbs (too heavy--see Evercel MB50).
20 Optima 66AH for 240V and 860 lbs (too heavy--see Evercel MB80).
25 SAFT STM100E 100AH for 150V and 726 lbs (low voltage, batteries 1"
too high).
20 Evercel MB80 66AH for 240V and 728 lbs (original design center).
26 Evercel MB50 42AH for 312V and 600 lbs (alternative permanent
pack).
16 SAFT NIMH 92AH for 192V and 661 lbs (clearance sale on
prototypes--very expensive but tempting)
75 ThunderSky LiIon cells 100AH for 270V and 495 lbs (lots of
concerns, but worth pursuing for the future).
I have a PFC50 on order, so even with a light pack, I should at least
be able to recharge in short order.
So one reason for the 2 DC heater elements (one for AC) is to allow
some flexibility when it comes to pack voltages without having to make
radical changes to the heater. As I said in the earlier post, 1500W is
usually just fine here in western Oregon.
Thanks again for your feedback and suggestions. I'm keeping a notebook
and taking pictures, so I should be able to put it on the web soon after
it's on the road.
Gary
=============================================================
Michael Hoskinson wrote...
Have you shared the details of your conversion plan to the list
(I apologize if I have missed it)? The Insight has a very light
suspension and a payload capacity of only 350 lbs. My Insight is
overloaded with just me and my wife in it, to say nothing of the
dog (gonna have to put the dog on a diet). There is a noticable
difference in ride and performance when it is overload. The ICE
is only 125 lbs, IIRC, and the tranny less than 100 lbs. I can't
imagine how you can accommodate motor, controller and batteries
within the GVW of this little puppy, let alone a water based
heater system. Do tell. You have some suspension tricks in mind?
I echo concerns of other list members regarding overcapacity of
your electric heater element. (unless you live in Nunavut). My
friend Ken Norwick has 2 1500 watt ceramic elements in his Saturn
in Calgary, and it's plenty warm for him in that cold place.
I've got 2 for my Citroen, but they'll be wired so I can use only
one of them when possible to save power. If that's not enough,
I'll replace my beret with a touque!
Mike Hoskinson
Edmonton Alberta
P.S. I just noticed that you didn't mention your pack voltage.
240 volt 1500 watt elements might not be so bad at 72 volts!
Gary Graunke wrote:
> I'm working on adding a heater to my insight conversion (in
progress). I
> plan on using 3 commodity water heater elements (240V at 1500V) in a
> triangle pattern.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's a rare and talented engineer that has an appreciation for a skilled
technician. The opposite is true as well.
Most engineers have never had to pull a wrench. Most technicians have
never had to design a commercial product. Technicians don't understand
vectors, torque couples, or AC ground loops. Engineers don't understand why
it is so expensive to drill a square hole, why you shouldn't thread both
sides of a flange, or that the black wire is live, not the white wire.
Murphy, of "Murphy's Law" was an engineer. He coined the phrase when a
technician connected every single accelerometer lead up backwards on an
expensive rocket sled experiment. This resulted in no data being collected.
The text of Murphy's Law is "If it can be done wrong, it WILL be done
wrong." Murphy learned that you must make it impossible to connect
something backwards, otherwise, someone, at some point, will connect it
backwards.
You have to ask yourself, "Who's fault was it?" Murphy, the engineer,
should have used a polarized connector. The anonymous technician, when
confronted with a decision, forged ahead without consulting the wiring
diagram or asking advice.
>>>>> Right to the point of John versus Engineers <<<<
I remember when I first met John Wayland. I, like everyone else, was
really impressed by what he had accomplished and the marvelous work he did.
Like any other visitor to John's house, my help was warmly enlisted on an
EV project underway.
As I was helping him put a motor in a conversion, I noticed that a
mounting bracket was not designed correctly. It was plenty beefy, but it
was positioned in a way that it would not be able to react the forces it
was going to be subjected to. As a mechanical engineer, I had designed such
things before and I knew this bracket was doomed.
I mentioned the problem to John and attempted to explain how the
transmission would move and the bracket would bend. He really didn't
understand my explanation. Since he didn't have the formal background in
physics (specifically free-body diagrams) I was unable to help him
understand what was wrong. It's not that it couldn't be done, but it would
have taken hours to go over the basics to get him to the point where he
could understand the flaw in his design. I would have had to teach him the
part of physics that governed to movement of the transmission in the car.
Needless to say, he blew off my warning and the bracket twisted like a
pretzel after a few months of use.
The key point is that I was perfectly willing to accept that John knew
things that I did not, but he was no able to accept the converse.
>>>> You don't know what you don't know <<<<
Most engineers don't know anything about the skills and experience it
takes to be a good technician. They have little or no experience in that
area. Thus, they think (foolishly) that the job is simple. The same is true
for technicians. They have no clue about all the things you have to know to
design something well. They think (foolishly) that any idiot with no social
life and the money for tuition can become an engineer.
>>> A few more examples <<<<<
I have had an electrical engineer suggest that we use GPS coordinates to
locate all the machinery in the equipment rooms. He was surprised that the
satellite signals would not penetrate to the basement of the building. I
have also had a physicist ask me the "alternator on the wheel" question.
I have also had a technician insist on installing expensive water filters
on the cooling towers in an attempt to correct a problem with dissolved
solids.
There is no shortage of folks without common sense. Some of them are
technicians. Some of them are engineers. The engineers without common sense
get paid more and make much more expensive mistakes, however.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:59 PM 12/13/02, you wrote:
I have tried looking about and can find the max current and voltage specs
for this motor.
L91-4003, 72-120V, dual-shaft, 12 HP, 100/150/500 amps, (6.7")
However I would like to know what the max RPM's of it are? It's in my
"new" rabbit.
This is the type of motor that I run on the Killacycle. I run two,
actually.
I belive this motor is rated at 7,000 RPM. I could be wrong though.
With stock timing, and no modifications, you can briefly push
about 700 amps though this motor if you keep the voltage low. If spin it up
very high with this much current, you will fireball the commutator.
With a few modifications, this motor will briefly take over 200
volts and over 1500 amps (at low RPM).
This motor is too small to use in a Rabbit conversion. It does not
have the continuous HP needed to push the car down the road at a steady
speed. You will probably burn up the armature windings or perhaps the field
windings.
I would advise you to get an 8 inch.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:47 PM 12/14/02, you wrote:
At 4:08 PM -0700 12/14/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
AGM batteries and these flooded NiCads have something in common;
the negative plate does not charge as well as the positive plate. This
means that when the voltage comes up at the end of the charge, and the
battery appears "full" the positive plate is charged, but the negative
plate is NOT fully charged. You must then push in an over charge to
complete the charge on the negative plate.
Thanks Bill,
Battery chemistry is not my strong point, but I'm wondering is there some
external way to determine if the negative plate is fully charged, Voltage,
Impedance or some such?
You can't completely isolate the specific problem externally. You
have to get inside the battery to absolutely know that the negative plate
is not fully charged.
If the capacity is low, and there are not that many cycles on the
pack, and you have not been putting in the recommended finish charge, I can
pretty much guarantee the negative plates are not fully charged.
If you give the battery a finish charge, and the capacity picks
up, it's a good guess that you have discovered that the negative plate is
not fully charged. This is especially true if you have not been giving the
battery the proper finish charge in the past. Cycle the pack and keep
giving the proper finish charge and the capacity should continue to increase.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:
> This means that when the voltage comes up at the end of the
> charge, and the battery appears "full" the positive plate is
> charged, but the negative plate is NOT fully charged. You must
> then push in an over charge to complete the charge on the
> negative plate.
This is great to know, and it definitely jives with
what I've been doing over the years. I'm always trying to
further refine my charge algorithm based on what I'm able to
learn from just using my EV all the time, and observing the
results of the small changes I make to the charge profile.
On the first year, I would end each charge with 1.5-2.0
Amps, until the voltage stopped rising, held stable, and then
dropped a Volt or two. Sometime around the 3rd year, it became
apparent that this was almost, but not quite enough. The pack
had begun to slowly loose capacity faster than aging would suggest.
So I increased the amount of overcharge by increasing the time
and therefore the number of Volts dropped after reaching the peak.
My latest theory, on this particular type of finish charging,
is that it may be a good compromise to let the number of Volts
dropped after reaching the peak equal the number of years old the
pack is. So here it is, the 7th year of the pack, but since it sat
for the first year of it's life I'm treating like it's only six and
therefore dropping 6 Volts from the peak Voltage reached during the
1.5-2.0 Amp finish charge.
This particular way of finishing the charge, seems to have
inherent temperature compensation, as in the winter it takes much
longer to complete than in the summer. The batteries never get
warmed to any noticeable extent, and never vent, even though module
voltages exceed 17 Volts each under cold conditions. If reaching high
voltages on a very low current such as this, can be used as a measure
of pack health, these batteries are still doing great having just
recently reached an average of 17.06 on a mere 1.5 Amps. Their record
set about a year ago was 17.31.
The car is running great, the blast up the canyon the other
day with cold batteries was impressive. Tonight, I took the feller over
to a tour of a magnificent victorian mansion. Imagine a house with the
attention to detail that John Wayland puts in his cars, in every single
detail of the entire home. It was amazing, fully furnished with fine
antiques and rare artwork, and the ride in the EV was a nice treat as
always. Gliding silently along, enjoying the heat flowing from the vents,
admiring century old homes finely decorated for the holidays. My cute,
little home will be turning 100 in 2005. YellowTops won't turn 100 until
.....just kidding. Kidding since "I" may not make it that long :^)
Seeya,
John
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