EV Digest 3707
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: CivicWithACord: batt. rack tight on brake reservoir. Advice?
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: "Runs on American Energy"
by Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: CivicWithACord: batt. rack tight on brake reservoir. Advice?
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Of Buss Bars and Orbitals.....
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: "Runs on American Energy"
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: more efficient electric motors
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Text message
by "Vtikhono" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: service
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Air, ferrite stators? was Re: more efficient electric motors
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: "Runs on American Energy"
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: "Runs on American Energy"
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Batteries for newbies
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: VERY OT service
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: service, rant an" Stuff
by "bobrice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) plates
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Civic With A Cord
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Public EV fleets was Re: Plea from Phoenix Motorcars
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Online Machine Shop
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Online Machine Shop
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Future Transport solutions, service, Re: Public EV fleets
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: service
by Chimer Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Gasoline Removal
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Magnets, : Air, stators, Easy build motors, was Re: more efficient electric
motors
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Another EV in the planning
by John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Online Machine Shop
by "Jay Honeycutt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Can you move the studs/bolts that secure the MS over a bit?
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 11:39 PM
Subject: CivicWithACord: batt. rack tight on brake reservoir. Advice?
> Hi All,
> I'm so dang close to being on the road, and in a
> wee bit of a pickle. Have been working from
> videotape, which showed I could place 4 batts. in
> front of the firewall. I did, and have absolutely no
> millimeter of clearange. Mind you, they're floodies,
> so 67 lbs. ea.
> The tie-down is getting fabbed as we speak.
> It goes without saying that around a curve, the
> batteries will press even harder against the brake
> reservoir/master cylinder than they are now. Not
> good.
> Either:
> I take a piece of the hold down out, so I can clear
> the brake reservoir, and assume that my hold-down will
> keep the batteries from exerting even one pound more
> force on it, or
> I re-fab the batt. rack, making it 2 cm forward
> from where it is now. Hopefully it will still clear
> the sloping hood. In this situation, instead of
> encroaching the brake reservoir, it will have 5 cm. of
> space before the master cylinder.
> Yep, it's one of those "well, I really need to see
> it" things, but what are gut level feelings? While a
> cylindrical reservoir is a strong shape, it is made of
> plastic, and with a deformable plastic cover, I am
> concerned that even minimal force might break it off.
> Thoughts?
>
> Thanks,
>
> =====
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
> (in progress)! ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
> http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> What kind of vehicle did it used to be? What colour is it?
> David C. Wilker Jr.
It's a 1992 Geo Metro convertible. Currently it's white, but I plan on
painting it a tZero yellow when the conversion is complete.
Bill Dennis
How about Geo "Electro", rhymes with Metro. ELECTRO. I like it. Lawrence
Rhodes.......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about shimming the M/C mount to angle the master cylinder slightly
sideways? Assuming the op rod still has enough side clearance (it should) to
enable a full stroke. On some vans the M/C is turned completely sideways
operated thru a bellcrank. David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 11:39 PM
Subject: CivicWithACord: batt. rack tight on brake reservoir. Advice?
> Hi All,
> I'm so dang close to being on the road, and in a
> wee bit of a pickle. Have been working from
> videotape, which showed I could place 4 batts. in
> front of the firewall. I did, and have absolutely no
> millimeter of clearange. Mind you, they're floodies,
> so 67 lbs. ea.
> The tie-down is getting fabbed as we speak.
> It goes without saying that around a curve, the
> batteries will press even harder against the brake
> reservoir/master cylinder than they are now. Not
> good.
> Either:
> I take a piece of the hold down out, so I can clear
> the brake reservoir, and assume that my hold-down will
> keep the batteries from exerting even one pound more
> force on it, or
> I re-fab the batt. rack, making it 2 cm forward
> from where it is now. Hopefully it will still clear
> the sloping hood. In this situation, instead of
> encroaching the brake reservoir, it will have 5 cm. of
> space before the master cylinder.
> Yep, it's one of those "well, I really need to see
> it" things, but what are gut level feelings? While a
> cylindrical reservoir is a strong shape, it is made of
> plastic, and with a deformable plastic cover, I am
> concerned that even minimal force might break it off.
> Thoughts?
>
> Thanks,
>
> =====
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
> (in progress)! ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
> http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All
Well, today went in fabricating copper Buss Bars to be used with my Orbital
blue top batteries.
With the batteries side-by-side, using the threaded terminals, half of them
are easy, 25mm x 3 mm flat bar, cut to length, four bends and two holes.
Just a little 'dog-leg' up and down again, to clear the plastic cap that is
away from the automotive posts, and strain relieve a little.
_____________
____/ \____
The other half had to steer around the automotive posts, since I didn't
want to go over them. So they were cut from some 35mm x 6mm, made into an
elongated "C" shape. 12mm x 6mm section past the posts, with lugs each end
that hopefully will allow some twisting for strain relief.
_____________________
/ ----------------- \
|o| |o|
Another two similar connect the string ends together, with an extra part in
the middle to bolt the power cables to:
_____________________
/ ----- ----- \
|o| |__o__| |o|
The plan is to 'tin' the connection parts with solder, and cover the parts
not required to be exposed with glue-lined heatshrink.
Could someone tell me what the thread sizes and type are that is used on
the Orbitals? I'll need to get some nuts to suit them. 304 or 316 Stainless
for preference?
Ta
James Massey
'78 Daihatsu 1300kg truck under conversion
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
3 PHASE
Mike G.
bobrice wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 8:08 PM
Subject: RE: "Runs on American Energy"
I have a list of them I collected at different times from the EV list:
Another from back East; So Watt
As for a bunper sticker. I just made a crappy sign." 20 HP @ 120 volts.
Fast 'enuf! Electrics; First and Last Cars." Below bumper in back" Look, No
Tailpipe,Arrow, and Smily Face.
Have fun.
Bob or Wattacar or Watt Wheels, but that/s taken?
xx VDC
xxx VDC
xx VOLT
xxVOLTS
xxxVOLT
4CLNAIR
ALT NRG
AMP HOG
AMPS
AMPS2GO
APLUGIN
BADERY
BAT ERY
BATCAR
BATTCAR
BATTERI
BATTERY
BATTPWR
CHARGE
CHARGED
CHRGDUP
CHG IT
CHRG UP
CLN AIR
CLNRAIR
CLN NRG
CLEANER
D CELLS
DC MOTOR
DCPOWER
DC PWR
DC PWRD
DE-ICED
DIS CHG
DIVRCTY (diversity)
E JET
ELECTRIC
ELECTRON
E TRONS
EZBNGRN
FREAMP
FREE NRG (not sure we want to say that!)
GASLESS
GOPLZMA
GO WATT
GRN CAR
H2O PWR (in few areas)
H8 SMOG
I CARE
KLN AIR
KW BRNR
KW PWR
LECTRIC
LECTRON
LECTRUK
NO CO
NO CO2
NO FOSL
NO FUEL
NO 2 GAS
NO GAS
NO ICE
NO NGIN
NO NOX
NO OPEC
NO SMOG
NO XOST
NOSTINK
NTRPY (entrophy)
ON AC
ON DC
ONWATTS
PLASMA
PLUG IN
PLUGITN
PROTONS
QUANTOM
QUARKS
RAREBIT
RE CHG
SAYWATT
SMELESS
SMELLES
SYNERGY
UNPLUGD
VOLTS
WATTGAS
WATTS
WATTSUP
VOLTWGN
ZAP IT
ZAPPED
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds like perpetual motion to me.
Mike G.
Next we move to a unit with its motor connected to a generator. What we see
is striking. The meters showed an input to the stator electromagnets of
approximately 1.8 volts and 150mA input, and from the generator, 9.144 volts
and 192mA output. 1.8 x 0.15 x 2 = 540mW input and 9.144 x 0.192 = 1.755W
out.
But according to the laws of physics, you can't get more out of a device
than you put into it. We mention this to Kohei Minato while looking under
the workbench to make sure there aren't any hidden wires.
Minato assures us that he hasn't transcended the laws of physics. The force
supplying the unexplained extra power out is generated by the magnetic
strength of the permanent magnets embedded in the rotor. "I'm simply
harnessing one of the four fundamental forces of nature," he says.
Content provided by [EMAIL PROTECTED] Inc. Magazine.
+++
You can view his patents online at
http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/search-bool.html
keyword search: Kohei AND Minato:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-adv.htm&r=0&p=1&f=S&l=50&Query=in%2Fminato+and+kohei&d=ptxt
Kohei Minato, No.901,28-20,
4-Chome, Yotsuya, Shinjuku, Tokyo, Japan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
------------------ Virus Warning Message (on pollux)
Found virus WORM_BAGLE.Z in file /var/tmp/smtpSSDwAp.2Y-26039.scr (in the_message.scr)
The file the_message.scr is moved to /tmp/virTSDyAp.2Y.
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* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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--- Begin Message ---
It seems to me that you are part of a minority :)
I have been working on automobiles and now lift trucks for over 20 years
and while there are many things thought about ( assembly and service )
there are just as many I look at and wonder why they couldn't be simpler
to repair. Could it be cost?
Mike G.
Martin Klingensmith wrote:
goodsharonwbird wrote:
Hi Guys, I read here that some one said service was a prob with EVs,
It can be , thats because engineers have built them, they always make
things way to hard to work on or understand, thats why engineers dont
know where the pointy end of the screwdriver goes,
Why do people stereotype like this? It gets irritating after a while.
--
Martin Klingensmith [future EE with much hands-on experience]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lift truck power steering motors use some fairly large magnets.
The motors are usually 8" in dia and about 12" long. Does this help for
a source ?
Mike G.
jerry dycus wrote:
Hi Andrew and All,
Thanks, this was just what I've been looking
for.
It looks easy to build without having to find
correct lams!! I've know about the style but didn't
know it could be that eff. It's used on a wind gen
list too where they make their own gens from scratch.
With the coils fixed on the inside disc
stator with PM disc's on each side rotating on a
shaft.
Now I have to decide to destroy my damaged
E-tek to get the mags to play with. Maybe even convert
the rotor to the stator! With better cooling it may
handle more power.
Does the E-tek only have 4 poles/side? If so I
need to find other magnets as I need 12, 18 or 24
total.
Making that type of stator, rotor will be easy
for me.
Looking high and low I haven't been able to
find a good motor, controller for my future EV's, gens
so need build my own.
And a modular controller that most people
could repair.
And both these at 30kw peak, 15kw cont., needs
to be done for about a $600 price point. It's a lot I
know but with good cooling, big coils, more dia should
do the trick.
Thanks,
jerry dycus
- Andrew Paulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Unfortunately, I am not allowed to say much about
the eTORQ construction
since it is a prototype. The stator does not use
any ferrite, it is
just the coils encapsulated in a high-temp,
thermally conductive epoxy.
There is iron in the motor (rotor back iron) just
not in the stator.
I'm under the impression that it is possible because
there are two
rotors, one on either side of the stator. Any iron
in between wouldn't
do much except provide losses (eddy currents,
hysteresis).
You can see a fairly good exploded diagram of the
stock eTORQ here:
http://www.e-torq.com/
You can see the encapsulated stator in the middle
with the leads coming
out and the rotors on either side.
Andrew
NDSU Sunsetters
jerry dycus wrote:
Hi Andrew, Rod, Brad and All,
Brad, it is a scam and overunity is not
allowed on the list so please drop it. Rod and the
others are right, listen to them and learn.
Andrew, what kind of ironless stator or
rotor
do you use, Air? Dia?
Could you grind up ferrite cores and make
a
working stator that way?
How did the eff get high without iron
lams?
Can you get high eff with air? How?
Thanks,
jerry dycus
--- Andrew Paulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Yeah, our eTORQ is pretty good - around 94% peak
efficiency. It is an
ironless, axial flux, PM, BL motor.
But this is probably only good for light vehicles
like our solar car.
The shaft can only support about 200lbs and cannot
tolerate much
sideload at all. Due to it's construction it
cannot
sustain high power
levels (>3000Watts) for any significant time
without
overheating. This
could probably be helped with liquid cooling for a
full-sized car.
I believe the nameplate says 10kW, but I wouldn't
run it that high for
more than a few minutes. Still, it does work well
for our lightweight
car. Our new one for 2005 should be a little
better
yet.
Andrew
NDSU Sunsetters
Rod Hower wrote:
Most single phase AC induction motors used in
appliances are inefficient, these are cheap to
produce currently. This guy has nothing more than
an efficient BLDC motor, we make lots of them at
Ametek for a wide variety of customers. Nothing
over unity, probably just mid 80% efficient BLDC.
Anything more and this guy is a liar. You can
get
a peak of 96% efficiency on some larger BLDC
motors,
anything more is just BS. 96% efficiency for a
BLDC
is operating under ideal conditions. EV traction
applications spread the efficiency over a much
broader
range and typically lower this efficiency
considerably.
I think the most efficient BLDC is not ideal but
very
close to the motor used in the ND university
solar
racer.
Rod.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had also thought of ALL AMPS.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bruce Tucker
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 5:38 PM
To: EV Discussion Group
Subject: Re: "Runs on American Energy"
We've been trying to decide on a plate. Here's what we've looked into for
our new BMW conversion to be registered in CA. Entries marked with - are
not available in California at the current time.
Bruce
EV IZED
AMPS OK
AMP BMW
EV BMW3
12 X12V
IM AN EV
NOT GASR
EV CAR
PLG IN
VOLT BMW
ZEV BMW
BMW ZEV
EV 325ES
EV 325
B M EV
NOW N EV
I (heart ) EV
I (heart) EVS
I NO (heart) GAS
-BAT INCL
-ECAR
-ELECTRC
-ELCTRIC
-ELECTR
-E POWER
-EV POWER
-EV
-EV3
-GASLESS
-I (heart) AMPS
-LECTRIC
-NO GAS
-NO NOX
-NO SMOG
-NO (heart) SMOG
-NOT GAS
-NO 2 GAS
-NO 2 OPEC
-NOT OPEC
-PLUG IN
-VOLT PWR
-144V DC
-144V EV
-144 VOLT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the NEO GEO suggestion. It got me thinking that maybe on the
side of the car, I could put GEO 'LECTRO.
Bill Dennis
> On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:18:51 -0700, Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> > Hmmm...."NEO GEO","GASFREE","GASLESS","GEO-D-C","48 VDC" (I
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cost of a smarter charger is likely a huge factor. But even with a fancy
charger (say Brusa?), it is only as 'smart' as the person programming it.
With due respect to Rich, the PFC charger isn't all that smart - its
settings are based solely on voltage, so there is no compensation for
battery temperature or battery age, etc. Adding the regs adds some sort
of temp correction (I don't have regs to really know) but still doesn't
address battery aging. I don't know if AGMs change as much with age, but
my floodeds change dramatically as they get older... lower finish
voltage and much easier to send into thermal run-away, so require a
lower charging current for a longer time to reach full. All of which
requires the user to be watching and thinking and changing the settings.
The Lester boat anchors aren't appropriate as on-board chargers but the
dv/dt algorithm has advantages for correcting for changes in temp and
age. Unless different batteries in the pack are at different points, in
which case regs and/or a battery balancer are needed.
Perhaps the ideal system would be an on-board isolated power-factor
corrected dv/dt based charger interfaced with a battery
balancing/regulator system. If such only existed.
Ryan Bohm wrote:
Everyone seems to say that a newbies first pack gets murdered. I
decided to go with a PFC Charger and Regs to reduce the chance for
messing up. So two questions:
1) Why don't more people use a smarter charger (e.g. PFC) and regs? Money?
2) Am I still going to find a way to kill my first pack? What am I
going to do wrong?
-Ryan
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: service
> goodsharonwbird wrote:
>
> >Hi Guys, I read here that some one said service was a prob with EVs,
> >It can be , thats because engineers have built them, they always
> >make things way to hard to work on or understand, thats why
> >engineers dont know where the pointy end of the screwdriver goes,
> >
> Why do people stereotype like this? It gets irritating after a while.
> --
> Martin Klingensmith [future EE with much hands-on experience]
That is because most of the engineers out there DON'T have any realworld
experience, and think that they are God because they have a degree. I
personally have seen too many screwups caused by engineers to have any
confidence in them.
HOWEVER, there are some notable exceptions on this list, Sharon - so don't
put ALL of them in this category!
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: M.G. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: service
> It seems to me that you are part of a minority :)
> I have been working on automobiles and now lift trucks for over 20 years
> and while there are many things thought about ( assembly and service )
> there are just as many I look at and wonder why they couldn't be simpler
> to repair. Could it be cost?
> Mike G.
> Hi All;
Cost? You bet! The cost of buying special tools or the money spent at
the dealer to trouble shoot, train, on YOUR time. They, the Engineers make
it such a hassle to work on that you slam thre hood down, and line up at the
dealer, at THEIR convenience to fix it. I won't say that they don't know
which end of the screwdriver goes, but they know how to deflate your wallet,
and, after all, THAT'S where it's at, anyhow. The whole oil, auto
racket.THEY don't want you runninhg around with only one moving part in your
"Engine" motor! What?? No "Check Engine light"$$$$, to rip you off, THAT's
why EV 's were a " failure" in the eyes of the Auto Co's, why they had to
kill off CARB, Hasd they spent that money perfecting batteries, or EVen
standardising [EMAIL PROTECTED] type of charging plug, a cheap easy to use that
EVerybody could buy/use!!
OK End of Rant, flame suit on!<G>!
Bob, my OTHER car is a Prius
> Martin Klingensmith wrote:
>
> > goodsharonwbird wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Guys, I read here that some one said service was a prob with EVs,
> >> It can be , thats because engineers have built them, they always make
> >> things way to hard to work on or understand, thats why engineers dont
> >> know where the pointy end of the screwdriver goes,
> >
> > Why do people stereotype like this? It gets irritating after a while.
> > -- Almost as much as trying to fix something ,nowadaze!
> > Martin Klingensmith [future EE with much hands-on experience]
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is the limit on the plates is it 7 letters and a 1/2 space ? or is
it just 7 letters
just brainstorming here
NTAHYBD Not A Hybrid, say this like Arnold in the movie
Kindergarden Cop "not a tumor"
PO10SHL Potential , like to figure out "hi potential"
ZLECTRC Considered for my 300ZX conversion
MNYAMPS Many Amps For my mitsubishi race truck, to be my second
conversion
BZZZZZT A Plasma boy special :-)
SPARKY
XCMBSTN External Combustion
GRIDPWD Grid Powered
for a BMW, hummmm
HI BEAM sounds like for a 4x4
BTMYWTS Beat My Watts
BEV BMW Variants on ZEV BMW
BMW BEV
B E V MW
LKTRKBM Eletric Beam
out there
ANTACID relief from gas LOL
28 HP My license plate frame to read 28 HP onthe top and
Wanna Race across the bottom
RLEGACY Our Legacy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am really guessing because I haven't seen what you are talking about
but would strapping the batteries togather with stainless straps helpt
the first 3 hold #4 in line??
The strap can pass through a plate held down with bolts that attaches to
passenger side strut tower or fender or...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >
> I am reading all of the comments about what great cars so many people
> can
> build for not a lot of money and what the specs should be to attract
> customers. I see no mention of any provision for maintenance and
> support for the buyers of the vehicles. If a little company builds
> maybe 100 really nice EVs, sells 5 to Las Vegas drivers, 25 to
> Californians in various cities, 15 in Florida, etc., how are they
> going to provide a warranty and assure the buyers that when
> something breaks, or they need water in the batteries, that service
> will be available?
That's worst case eh Gail?
My local public transit outfit (Toronto, pop.5 million, with 2 mill
commuting every day, half of those for distances of less than 40km) is
buying 220 "clean diesel" buses at approx $550,000 each. They charge a
$2.25 adult fare and they lose money every year and constantly beg for
more government funding. Many of their customers make regular trips of
5-10km daily for commutes etc. Rush hour speeds commonly average
20-30kph (ignoring time/distances added for refueling and looking for
parking spaces.)
The average Canadian pays about 50 cents per km to operate their
private vehicle.
I have replaced my transit trips around town with a $1,000 EV (kick
scoot w/400w power-assist) that pretty much keeps me up with rush hour
speeds, but only costs me a few pennies a trip.
My city is "blessed" with sprawling suburbs and industrial parks that
have thousands of miles of clean, *empty* sidewalks in excellent
repair.
The road system street surfaces OTOH, suck. So I pick my routes and
I've surfed the sidewalks over 1000km over the last two years...
The city of Yong Kang (pop.500k, in Zhejiang, China) has built itself
into the worlds largest EV manufacturer, with 300+ companies
manufacturing and assembling millions of 2- and 3-wheeler EV's each
year (shipping 1/2 million to the USA yearly)...
I would like to see our transit outfit develop an industrial park for
the manufacture of 2- and 3-wheeler EV's designed for slow speed urban
transport. In addition to 3rd party sales, they could *give away*
their EV's to their customers, providing servicing at reasonable rates.
Their EV's would have "hot swapable" batt packs, and the transit
outfit would maintain EV "gas stations" around town to swap out tired
batts for fresh ones, with professional "care and feeding" for the
battery stock.
My EV is of course illegal to operate on any road or sidewalk in
Canada until changes are made in Federal and Provincial legislation.
This is more of an accident of history than anything else (all motor
vehicles are illegal, until a category is created and regulated etc.)
The madness that has hit the USA (news reports about dangerous
scooters (read teenagers here), and a wave of restrictive legislations
being put in place) has not hit Canada yet, as most Canadians are only
dimly aware that they exist (they are often surprised that the scoot is
electric and not gas like the (noisy/smelly/dangerous) ones they may
have heard of).
What's wrong with this scenario (public transit-operated
e-scoot/trike fleets)?
If the idea took off and a chunk of urban Canadians suddenly cut
their transit energy consumption, stopped using their private (ICE)
vehicles for many trips... presumably our petro-based economy would
take a hit. It would depend on how fast we can adapt our economy in
this new direction (vs massive subsidies to the ICE private vehicle
manufacturers, etc)
Just my 2 cents Cdn. from a 50-something accountant.
LoCK
e-Surfing in Toronto
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:53 AM -0400 7-17-04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
There is a compay called emachine shop that offers just about any maching you
could need. You go to their web site which is:
http://www.emachineshop.com/
I wonder how much it would cost to have them machine a adaptor plate?
If the price were right, I could imagine people on the list starting
a collection of open source designs for them.
It's true that one of the hard parts is getting the transmission
coordinates, but once that's done it might not be too hard.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 10:53 AM -0400 7-17-04,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >There is a compay called emachine shop that offers
> just about any maching you
> >could need. You go to their web site which is:
> >
> >http://www.emachineshop.com/
>
> I wonder how much it would cost to have them machine
> a adaptor plate?
>
> If the price were right, I could imagine people on
> the list starting
> a collection of open source designs for them.
>
a collection of open source designs for what ever
sounds like a great idea. I have seen many great
ideas since i began reading this list but most of them
are just photos or asci drawings what if we all went
to this site and downloaded the free cad design
software and translated our ideas into a cad format
the any on the list could use....
keith
> It's true that one of the hard parts is getting the
> transmission
> coordinates, but once that's done it might not be
> too hard.
>
> --
> -Otmar-
> http://www.CafeElectric.com
> Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lock, Gail and All,
--- Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >
> > I am reading all of the comments about what great
> cars so many people
> > can
> > build for not a lot of money and what the specs
> should be to attract
> > customers. I see no mention of any provision for
> maintenance and
> > support for the buyers of the vehicles. If a
At First they will be experienced EV'ers so know
how to take care of them. Next start rolling out in
cities that have businesses take want to and can do
service, probably the same people who sold them or
built them as the idea is local building around the
country.
But my EV's will be sold as owner maintained,
serviced by having anything repairable in 15 minutes
as a major goal. Questions answered on the web,phone,
parts shipped from factory to customer. This alone
will cut total lifetime costs 25%. Worthwhile and time
to repair usually drops too, sometimes a lot.
As production grows you open more dealers to take
care of customers that just want to get in and drive.
Many golf cart companies do that now quite well and
they maintain the Citi-cars, Nev's too here in Fla.
On engineers, Sharon, I come from repair into
design so know what you are talking about as
repairability was a major reason to go EV.
But engineers are not really to blame for most of
the problems. It's managment, marketing and people who
keep buying that c--p because it looks stylish, big!
If people demanded ease of repair we would get it
but people demand cup holders!!!!
One whole yr of engineering should be repairing
lots of stuff!!!!
But there are good and great engineers out there
too!
So please don't blame them all.
> little company builds
> > maybe 100 really nice EVs, sells 5 to Las Vegas
> drivers, 25 to
> > Californians in various cities, 15 in Florida,
> etc., how are they
> > going to provide a warranty and assure the buyers
> that when
> > something breaks, or they need water in the
> batteries, that service
> > will be available?
>
> That's worst case eh Gail?
>
> My local public transit outfit (Toronto, pop.5
> million, with 2 mill
> commuting every day, half of those for distances of
> less than 40km) is
> buying 220 "clean diesel" buses at approx $550,000
> each. They charge a
> $2.25 adult fare and they lose money every year and
> constantly beg for
> more government funding. Many of their customers
> make regular trips of
> 5-10km daily for commutes etc. Rush hour speeds
> commonly average
> 20-30kph (ignoring time/distances added for
> refueling and looking for
> parking spaces.)
>
> The average Canadian pays about 50 cents per km to
> operate their
> private vehicle.
>
> I have replaced my transit trips around town with
> a $1,000 EV (kick
> scoot w/400w power-assist) that pretty much keeps me
> up with rush hour
> speeds, but only costs me a few pennies a trip.
>
> My city is "blessed" with sprawling suburbs and
> industrial parks that
> have thousands of miles of clean, *empty* sidewalks
> in excellent
> repair.
> The road system street surfaces OTOH, suck. So I
> pick my routes and
> I've surfed the sidewalks over 1000km over the last
> two years...
I believe that in the future many will move to
under 30mph 1 person enclosed EV transport modules.
Basicly fast enclosed wheelchairs to golf carts-NEVs.
These in cities can get you to work faster in many
cases at costs of under $.10/mile total costs which
will look really good in the near future.
These could turn a 2 lane older street into a 5
lane low speed vehicle street greatly relieving
pressure on the other roads, pollution while still
giving people independent transport. Easy, cheap.
While 30 mph sounds slow, on my 12.5 mile commute
it takes me about 23 minutes in a car, mostly 50-55mph
speed limits and only about 29 minutes with my 25mph
trike with a golf cart transaxle.
One burned 1 gal gas and the other 1kw of juice.
So at $2/gal I made about $20/hr for those 6 extra
minutes using my low speed EV..
30 to 100 mile range is quite easy in these and
cheap as the e consumption is so low.
All it would take is a couple of laws, some road
stripping, signs.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
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--- Begin Message ---
Yes Martin, I having an ME background scripted a
scathing rebuttal but canned it when I was finished as
I didn't think it was in the proper spirit of the EV
list. Chimer
--- Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Why do people stereotype like this? It gets
> irritating after a while.
> --
> Martin Klingensmith [future EE with much hands-on
> experience]
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, everyone, for all the good advice. Heeding your suggestions, I
reached a major milestone for the conversion today: fuel tank, exhaust
system and ICE have all been removed. Since the sum of my experience under
the hood of a car before this was limited to changing engine fluids, I feel
quite a sense of accomplishment. Now the fun part begins, and the bank
account starts to dwindle.
I've been taking pictures as the conversion progresses and will be posting a
conversion diary in the next couple of weeks for anyone interested.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike and All,
--- "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lift truck power steering motors use some fairly
> large magnets.
> The motors are usually 8" in dia and about 12" long.
> Does this help for
> a source ?
> Mike G.
Not really as the motors I want to build are disc
style which takes flat magnets.
I wonder if you could use 4 magnets/side and a 6
coil stator or do the coils have to be the same size
as the mags to be eff? If this is cool I can use the
e-tek mags possibly.
I don't want to overlap the coils as the air gap
widens a lot if you do in this kind of stator.
Anyone have a good cheap source for strong puck
magnets around 3/8- 1/2" thick and 1.5-2" dia? I know
about Forcefield but their's are too small.
Would Neo mags be needed or would strong ceramic
types work?
What does the E-tek use for mags? How many?
Thanks,
jerry dycus
>
> jerry dycus wrote:
>
> > Hi Andrew and All,
> > Thanks, this was just what I've been
> looking
> >for.
> > It looks easy to build without having to
> find
> >correct lams!! I've know about the style but didn't
> >know it could be that eff. It's used on a wind gen
> >list too where they make their own gens from
> scratch.
> > With the coils fixed on the inside disc
> >stator with PM disc's on each side rotating on a
> >shaft.
> > Now I have to decide to destroy my damaged
> >E-tek to get the mags to play with. Maybe even
> convert
> >the rotor to the stator! With better cooling it may
> >handle more power.
> > Does the E-tek only have 4 poles/side? If
> so I
> >need to find other magnets as I need 12, 18 or 24
> >total.
> > Making that type of stator, rotor will be
> easy
> >for me.
> > Looking high and low I haven't been able
> to
> >find a good motor, controller for my future EV's,
> gens
> >so need build my own.
> > And a modular controller that most people
> >could repair.
> > And both these at 30kw peak, 15kw cont.,
> needs
> >to be done for about a $600 price point. It's a lot
> I
> >know but with good cooling, big coils, more dia
> should
> >do the trick.
> > Thanks,
> > jerry dycus
> >
> >- Andrew Paulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Unfortunately, I am not allowed to say much about
> >>the eTORQ construction
> >>since it is a prototype. The stator does not use
> >>any ferrite, it is
> >>just the coils encapsulated in a high-temp,
> >>thermally conductive epoxy.
> >>
> >>There is iron in the motor (rotor back iron) just
> >>not in the stator.
> >>I'm under the impression that it is possible
> because
> >>there are two
> >>rotors, one on either side of the stator. Any
> iron
> >>in between wouldn't
> >>do much except provide losses (eddy currents,
> >>hysteresis).
> >>
> >>You can see a fairly good exploded diagram of the
> >>stock eTORQ here:
> >>http://www.e-torq.com/
> >>
> >>You can see the encapsulated stator in the middle
> >>with the leads coming
> >>out and the rotors on either side.
> >>
> >>Andrew
> >>NDSU Sunsetters
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--- Begin Message ---
I've been considering and talking about converting my truck for over a
year now, so as the saying goes, its time to put up or shut up.
My daily commute it all of 15 miles round trip (some highway miles),
and I should be able to recharge at work. For over a year now I have
been tracking the daily milage I put on the truck, and for 90% of the
days I use the truck I drive 40 miles or less. Would appear to be the
perfect candidate for an EV.
The truck is a 1986.5 Nissan King Cab. I am currently thinking of
getting one of the Electro Automotive Deluxe Universal Kits with the
motor and controller upgrades ( 9 inch motor and the Curtis 1231C-8601
controller). If I were getting individual components I would probably
get a Zilla controller rather than the Curtis and a zivan or a PFC
charger rather than the Russco, but I really like the idea of a kit.
Maybe something to think about for the future. For batteries my
thinking is 24 6 volt flooded golf cart batteries for a 144 volt system.
When I am weighing the vehicle do I need 3 measurements (front axle,
rear axle and both) or is front and both ok. The attendant at the truck
stop I checked with looked at me like I had 2 heads when I said I was
interested in 3 measurements.
I own and have read Convert It and Build Your Own Electric Vehicle but
I'd be interested in any additional pearls of wisdom list members may
have. In particular any things I should do before I begin dismantling
the truck. (Other than identifying the magic number for the
transmission bell housing, the initial ride heights for the tires, and
the aforementioned weight distribution).
Thanks in advance, and there will surely be many more question to
follow in the coming months.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To extend this a bit further, one could locate a high-res
3-D scanner to generate, very quickly, a fairly accurate
copy of an existing piece. As creating a 3D file from
scratch can be expensive, getting a "head start" by using
a scanner on an existing piece could be a useful
shortct. Then, an experienced CAD operator would only
need some calipers and patience to tighten up the final
file.
Then, the cost of 10-100 pieces of a rare but desirable
part might be relatively inexepensive. As with a
conventional machine shop or printing facility, much of
the expense is incurred in setup time and skills; once
done, the marginal cost of generating the 10th piece is
a fraction of that of the 1st, approaching the cost of
the stock and electricity on the 1,000 piece.
It has been awhile since I have played with a 3D scanner;
but I would assume that their cost/performance ratio has
decreased a lot in the 15 years since.
A thought,
Jay Honeycutt
----- Original Message -----
From: "keith vansickle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: Online Machine Shop
> --- Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > At 10:53 AM -0400 7-17-04,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > >There is a compay called emachine shop that offers
> > just about any maching you
> > >could need. You go to their web site which is:
> > >
> > >http://www.emachineshop.com/
> >
> > I wonder how much it would cost to have them machine
> > a adaptor plate?
> >
> > If the price were right, I could imagine people on
> > the list starting
> > a collection of open source designs for them.
> >
>
>
> a collection of open source designs for what ever
> sounds like a great idea. I have seen many great
> ideas since i began reading this list but most of them
> are just photos or asci drawings what if we all went
> to this site and downloaded the free cad design
> software and translated our ideas into a cad format
> the any on the list could use....
>
> keith
>
>
>
> > It's true that one of the hard parts is getting the
> > transmission
> > coordinates, but once that's done it might not be
> > too hard.
> >
> > --
> > -Otmar-
> > http://www.CafeElectric.com
> > Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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> Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
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>
>
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