EV Digest 5705
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Fiamp! Comments.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Zilla 1K
by Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) AC/DC the beat goes on. Was Re: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible
too -
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 2:30 AM
Subject: Re: Fiamp!
> I have great respect for Fiamp & Meanie but wouldn't 156v of Exides or
> Optimas really make a Fiat 600 fly? There's a guy in San Francisco with
one
> of the 72v Baldor motors which are huge. He promised to email me the
plate
> spec's and I'd think he'd have a Meanie beater if it was done right.
> Problem would be keeping the Fiat tranny in one piece. Lawrence
Rhodes....
Hi Guys;
If ANYBODY thinks the'll have a Meanie beater with a Baldor motor?
Forgetabout it! I had one of those big ass Baldors in the Rabbit, years ago.
I think I got about a weak out of it!It didn't EVen have Class H insulation,
tiny little comm and brushes and was as big as the ADC 9"er that replaced
it!OK It was an antique, inhereited from my EFP daze in Detroit, 40 years
ago. Don't know if Baldor has cleaned up their act since then? Baldor has
carved out a nitch in the industrial motor field, where weight isn't a
factor, and power demands are more modest. They still SOLDERED the comm
leads, as I had a lovely soldered plated end bell inside in the first few
daze of driving.
As for making a Fiat600 fly? Isn't that a variation of suicide? Maybe
their cute little 850 Roadster, but the blumpy 600. Maybe jack it up and
slip a racing, engineered chassis underneith? I think the Fiat 850 would
make a nice electric doner IF you could find a clean one? Maybe in Portland
where Chevie Corvairs and AMC Hornets still roam free, in Real Time, in the
public streets. Portland is a source of great amusment to us Least Coast
guyz, You never know what forgotten automotive relic will trundle by! A 51
Chevie school bus camper, it's flite cut short by a dead fuel pump. I
offered the guy a ride to the parts store, but it had died, conveniently
outside a parts store.I had an immediate empethy with the guy as I have a 54
Intretrashional Scoolie camper buss.These oldies are a pleasure to work
on.Jay Donnaway's gorgiously restored VW Ghia. Gees! They just don't exist
here, gotta inport them from the left coast. Anyhow, to TRY to get back to
the point. A flea-at 600 was an EVERYman's car in post war Italy. With a
sewing machine size motor(engine) it didn't need to perforn like a Farrari,
if it managed 60 with a tailwind, down hill? And you want to Blue Meanie
it?Gotta upgrade the suspension and brakes, too.At least ya recognize the
keeping the tranny together issue? That's a good, but shaky start<g>!Sorta
like putting a jet engine in a Piper Cub?
My two Lere worth.
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You're right, the hardware is not that difficult - in theory. Ask Otmar
about designing a controller that can handle hundreds amps. In theory,
he has an IGBT module, diodes, and capacitors. Easy, right? Building
anything that switches hundreds of amps is NOT easy, sorry. Yes there
are several people on this list that could do it, but it's not cheap
either. Not even close. Especially when you make a 1uS mistake and blow
up $400 of silicon. There's a lot that goes into it. The controller for
an AC inverter is going to be a high speed DSP-MCU running C or
assembly. You'd have to develop that, too. That might be just as
difficult as the hardware.
No it's not rocket science, it's electrical engineering. A different
branch of physics than rocket science, but more diverse and dare I say
nearly as difficult (not as exciting though).
--
Martin K
Mike Phillips wrote:
For instance, Intersil makes a chip, HIP4081, that many vendors use to
power brushed dc motors for Battlebots. This chip rocks. Controls the
fets very nicely. Intersil also makes a 3 phase version. HIP4086. It's
good for up to 90 or 95 volts. That chip would make a great prototype
ac system that would power a motorcylce. From there on it takes a
different approach. Instead of a neat chip making the 3 phases, you do
it with 3 groups of components. That's how my USE Electricar is done.
So are the ACP cars. Not rocket science.
I look at this idea as making a Curtis for 3 phases. In fact my first
prototype will probably be installed into an old gutted 1231 Curtis box
just out of convenience.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You sent it to the list- Good luck on your endeavors.
Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Mike,
Thanks for the note! Do not get my criticism wrong. I am not against AC.
In fact just to the contrary. I personally am selling my house and one of my
businesses to help pay for development of a high power AC drive. No I am not
selling EV Parts. Please do not take any of this to the list. It is not a
signed deal yet. My house hasn't even sold yet. The problem is that no one
makes a high power AC drive. Heck, when I first got involved in EV racing no
one was making a high power DC drive either.
Concerning efficiency, believe it or not some of us currently racing with
DC understand that if you are creating heat you are not creating horsepower.
When you are limited by lead acid batteries and you have to haul all that
weight down the track with you then you want as much horsepower that is in
those batteries to reach the road as possible.
You said you will be around the Tesla people next week. I assume you mean
Martin. I already talked to him while we were both in Los Angeles for the
Los Angeles film premier of WKTEC. I enquired about bringing a prototype to
the strip and he said he wanted to wait until the production cars were out.
I think from a business perspective this is viable. I still have my doubts
about the Wrightspeed and will still continue to have them until I see a
REAL time slip. In drag racing the first 60 feet are critical. Most cars
with enough torque to pull a good sixty foot time, i.e. sub 12 second cars
have enough torque to overcome the weight of the vehicle on launch.
Considering how light the X1 is it wouldn't take much to make it airborne
and it just doesn't do this. My logic would dictate that it would not have a
great sixty foot time, therefore not be in the tens. I would love to be
proven wrong by a time slip. As you say, they are in business to make money
and BS always sells better than truth in the marketing world. Just out of
curiosity, what is the quickest car you have ever owned or drove?
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips"
To: "Roderick Wilde"
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
> Roderick,
>
> I will find out the info on the clutch for you.
>
> The X1 was made for efficiency. It just happens to also be very quick.
> If it had one more gear and slicks, it would easily pull 10's.
> Remember this car doesn't even spin the tires when it launches. The
> 150+kw system could easily be tweaked thru software to put out more
> power instead of trying to conserve the battery pack. 150kw is what it
> will put out as long as the pack can supply it. Not a peak spec.
>
> I've ridden in the X1. I'm telling you that this car is not even race
> prepped and it will take down anything that is not race prepped, and
> most of what is race prepped and streetable.
>
> I'd love nothing more than to see and AC/DC shootout at some track.
> But please remember that the guys building this stuff are trying to
> make a living at it. Will they have time? We'll see.
>
> I promise you when I am around the Tesla Motors car next weekend, I'll
> press the time slip issue in a big way.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roderick Wilde" wrote:
>>
>> Mike, a few questions to make things clear for me. What car uses a
>> $30,000.00 clutch assembly. I have been racing electric cars for a
> while and
>> gas cars as well and I have never heard of such a thing. Please
> quote the
>> brand and a URL.
>>
>> You also state that no DC powered car can beat the X1. Are you
> seriously
>> telling the EV community and the world through your post that the X1
> turns
>> in the 10s in the quarter mile? That is what it would take to beat the
>> quickest DC powered street car. You can't be serious? John has a
> relatively
>> slow DC powered street EV from my perspective :-) and I personally
> have seen
>> his time slips. My money would be on his car in a drag race with the X1.
>>
>> If you know the folks with the X1 then tell them they are invited
> to the
>> NEDRA Nationals. It would be a great crowd pleaser! I would say it
> is time
>> for the X1 to splurge and spend the 20 bucks and get their car timed
> with
>> modern technology timing equipment and then show the world their
> time slip.
>> You do believe in modern technology, right. As Dennis Berube says: "The
>> proof is in the time slip"
>>
>> Roderick Wilde
>> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
>> www.suckamps.com
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mike Phillips"
>> To: "John Wayland"
>> Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 4:26 PM
>> Subject: Re: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
>>
>>
>> >I bet you said that in one breath too John!
>> >
>> > It's clear to me that you are not a fan of technology. Composite
>> > construction, tube frames and AC are not something you've looked into
>> > for racing apparently. In fact you call them silly. These AC companies
>> > have and are using it effectively too. You choose to overlook one
>> > thing, these AC cars want to go hundreds of miles on a charge as well
>> > as go fast, very very fast. Can any DC car make claims like that?
>> > Nope. Never will be able too either.
>> >
>> > I don't think these EV companies are missing the boat by going with AC
>> > systems over DC. The common thread is that each new EV company keeps
>> > picking AC systems to run world class acceleration with. There must be
>> > something to these AC systems. But how can they keep missing the
>> > benfits of DC?
>> >
>> > You use to own the same type of USE truck that I do? How cool is
>> > that?? Did you know the USE charger can charge any voltage pack?? Did
>> > you know it can charge Nimh or Lead acid? Did you look into that while
>> > you owned it? Of course you did....
>> >
>> > Did you know the 20kw charger in the ACP cars is user adjustable on
>> > the dash board for any voltage AC going in or DC voltage going out
>> > from technology that was designed over 15 years ago??
>> >
>> > A 20kw charger for $300??
>> >
>> > Nobody on this planet can touch that. No extra boxes of hardware to
>> > store at home or in the EV. All built in. Seems to me to be a great
>> > asset to racing. It's part of every AC systems capability and a great
>> > boon for efficiency if weight means anything
>> >
>> > The X1 did a rolling start due to the objections of the other vehicles
>> > owner not wanting to toast a $30,000 clutch assy. So Ian agreed to a
>> > rolling start. The other vehicles he raced were standing starts. I've
>> > ridden in the X1 and your not going to beat it with any DC car.
>> >
>> > Remember John, if the X1 and Tzero had a transmission that could shift
>> > just one more gear, then their top ends would be far higher. They go
>> > with no gears as it takes away from their ultimate goal of efficency
>> > and lighter weight. Yet they still hold their own against world class
>> > street legal cars.
>> >
>> > Keep advancing the cause of DC John. Just close your doors, very very
>> > tightly....
>> >
>> > Mike
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Wayland wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hello to All,
>> >>
>> >> Whew...where to start answering all this? Mike, you seem to be
> zealous
>> >> over AC to the point that you are putting a spin on stats. You
> compare
>> >> apples to oranges, then do your best to convince others its apples to
>> >> apples. Follow me here, as I take your points one at a time.
>> >>
>> >> Mike Phillips wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >I know I sure want a performance EV. But I would not do it with DC.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Then you would be making a big mistake, and dollar for dollar, you'd
>> > get
>> >> your high tech doors blown off by DC...unless of course, you do
> it with
>> >> the silly Wright Speed skeleton 'thing', then you wouldn't have any
>> >> doors to get blown off.
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >Expanding slighty on John's points. I would add that every EV drag
>> >> >racer has to have a good charger too.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Already got that with 12 kw Manzanita Micro chargers that we can
> easily
>> >> use on other DC cars, making them way more useful than one that's
> stuck
>> >> inside a high dollar AC car.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >A major benefit of an AC system
>> >> >is that for about $300 it's very easy to make the AC system do dual
>> >> >duty as a charger.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> These Manzanita Micro chargers can charge 'any' EV's pack, not
> just the
>> >> captive one connected to an AC machine. Last night at the races was a
>> >> perfect example. We used Manzanita Micro chargers to charge a
> 192V drag
>> >> bike, a 120V convertible, a 240V 914, a 24V bike, a 360V car, and
> a 72V
>> >> drag bike....even standby 12V batteries one at a time!
>> >>
>> >> > What's that worth?
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Last night, where the real EV races were, it would have been
> worthless!
>> >> And speaking of worthless, in the case of the AC powered Chevy S10
>> >> pickup I had for several months, it also wasn't worth anything. In
>> > fact,
>> >> this over-priced, slow as molasses EV ($45,000 back in '98) with its
>> >> under-powered Dolphin Hughes AC system with built-in inverter-based
>> >> charger, was thrown away by the utility company that got duped into
>> >> buying it, because the charger failure took down the entire inverter.
>> >> Yeah, great idea there! After buying the over-priced AC truck and
>> > having
>> >> such a dismal experience, the utility company gave up on EVs.
>> >>
>> >> >The one area that AC loses today is the purchase price. You got me
>> >> >there.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> No, I got you on many, many other areas as well...you're only
> admitting
>> >> to the price.
>> >>
>> >> >But someone could make an AC system that was Otmar-esque. A
>> >> >sane, simple box....
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> What on earth is sane and simple about anything Otmar builds? His .6
>> >> megawatt capable controller is not what most would consider
> sane...more
>> >> like over-the-top, over-built, but certainly not sane! The Zilla and
>> >> Hairball are anything but simple...they are advanced pieces of
>> > equipment
>> >> that provide tremendous power, flexibility, and reliability.
>> >>
>> >> >For performance, an AC motor can out rev a DC motor by a huge
> margin.
>> >> >Mine goes to 9k rpm all day long.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Where did you get the idea, that all you have to do, is be able
> to rev
>> >> to high rpm's to get performance? The Brusa AC system that was in
>> >> Otmar's Sprint could rev to 9 or 10 grand, too, but it went 0-60 in
>> >> about a day and a half. Your Dolphin may rev, but I doubt it can even
>> >> remotely touch a DC system's performance at 1/3 the cost!
>> >>
>> >> >ACP motors rev to 13k rpm all day
>> >> >long.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> And yet, when doing an honest apples to apples comparison with my DC
>> >> car, that is, both cars weighing exactly the same 2450 lbs. when
>> > powered
>> >> by AGM lead acid batteries, they are slower to 60 by at least a half
>> >> second, slower in the 1/4 mile standing start drag race by more
> than a
>> >> second (a huge margin in terms of 1/4 mile ET) with their 13.24 ET
>> > vs my
>> >> 12.151 ET, slower to 100 mph...oops, sorry, in order to get its 0-60
>> >> time down it had to be geared appropriately and thus it couldn't even
>> >> hit 100 and only ran 90 mph, and slower in top speed than my old
>> > tech DC
>> >> powered Datsun that's got rear doors, windows....well, it's a car,
>> > not a
>> >> plastic toy.
>> >>
>> >> Even with the HUGE advantage of a mega dollar LiIon pack, my DC
> car can
>> >> still whup the tZero. Looks like all those rpms didn't do
> sh....t! Ever
>> >> wonder what that fiberglass curiosity would do if you took out that
>> >> wimpy 150 kw power train, and dropped in the 350 kw power train of
>> > White
>> >> Zombie and fed it with those LiIons?
>> >>
>> >> >AC motors do not have brushes and
>> >> >all the assorted headaches.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Hmmm....the brushes in Blue Meanie are original, been in the car
> for 12
>> >> years, and are still at 60% or so. No headaches to speak of,
> other than
>> >> those caused by my head getting slammed back into the head rests.
>> >>
>> >> >If you want to run more voltage you
>> >> >just....run more voltage. No arc over headaches.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> A valid point when under the extremes of racing, but certainly not
>> > valid
>> >> at all for regular street cars.
>> >>
>> >> >AC systems create a very flat torque curve via the electronics.
> That's
>> >> >a drag racers wet dream.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Actually, it's you that's all wet. AC cars typically have a very soft
>> >> low end, that's why they need to be geared down. As the revs go
> up, the
>> >> torque curve rises and eventually flattens out from 2000-8000
> rpm, then
>> >> they fall off. High voltage DC drives are flat from the beginning
> with
>> >> near instantaneous bottom end torque that stays flat until about 6000
>> >> rpm then ramps down, for about the same bandwidth of power as the AC
>> >> drive, but with the advantage of the power being available far
> sooner,
>> >> where you need it most.
>> >>
>> >> >The other benefit of AC over DC is that you don't need a battery
> pack
>> >> >that can source 2000 amps.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Boy, the spin is getting thick here! Why do you AC guys have to use
>> >> theses tactics to 'try' prove your points? You certainly don't need
>> > 2000
>> >> amps with DC to easily match or exceed the 100 kw power level of
> AC, in
>> >> fact, run at the same voltage of the typical 100 kw AC system, the
>> >> current is the same for DC. Even at half the voltage, you only
> need 700
>> >> or so, not 2000! The fact is, at 2000 amps the DC system simply blows
>> >> away the AC system stuck at a restrictive 350 amps. Two cars with the
>> >> same voltage pack, same weight, but one DC and the other AC, will
> have
>> >> to draw the same current to get similar performance.
>> >>
>> >> You seem to be parroting what you've been told. AC drives 'typically'
>> >> powered at 100 kw do it by using ~300V at 350 amps, where DC systems
>> >> typically can do 100 kw at ~150V or so at 700 amps. The AC promoters
>> >> 'spin' this by dodging the fact that they can't make an
> affordable high
>> >> current inverter that can handle 700 amps for a sensible lower
> voltage
>> >> system, so they simply tout that they only need 350 amps to make
> their
>> >> 100 kw of power. The reason for this is obvious to most of us. AC
>> >> inverters that aren't in the $20k range, can't handle anymore
> amps than
>> >> this, thus, the only way to make 100 kw of power is to raise the
>> > voltage
>> >> high enough so that amps X volts equals 100 kw. DC can do it at half
>> > the
>> >> voltage, making for a much less expensive battery pack consisting of
>> >> just 13, 12V modules...your beloved AC can't do this and still
> make 100
>> >> kw. What you omit in your apples to oranges comparison, is that a
> 300V
>> >> DC system.... 'surprise'....also only draws 350 amps to make 100
> kw of
>> >> power. I wonder why you leave this part out? This seems to be a
> common
>> >> thread among AC lovers. Now, to take away your AC spin, let's restate
>> >> the above:
>> >>
>> >> The other benefit of DC over AC is that you don't need a high
>> > voltage battery pack
>> >> to make reasonable power (100 kw)...you can do it with half the
>> > number of batteries sourcing 700 amps. Additionally, with the higher
>> > performance DC systems, sourcing 2000 amps at higher voltages can make
>> > power levels 4 times higher for the same price as a 100 kw AC system!!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Next up:
>> >>
>> >> >A 1000 amp AC system would be a sub 10
>> >> >second vehicle.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> OK......and where's this 1000 amp AC system that can be had at
> the same
>> >> price as a Zilla Z2K with DC motor? And why do you think a 1000
> amp AC
>> >> system could even stay close to a 2000 amp DC system?
>> >>
>> >> >How do I know this? Because the fast AC systems now
>> >> >are pulling 500-700 amps, and are running in the low 11's.
>> >> >Yes they were 1/4 mile runs done at Moffet Field. I think there are
>> >> >videos out there as I recall.
>> >> >Don't let the cost of these cars blind you to the most simple part.
>> >> >These AC car makers are making world class machines.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Boy, are your facts screwed up! First, the 'cars' you refer to are
>> >> nothing close to regular cars. The tZero as already pointed out, is a
>> >> toy-like kit car of flimsy build quality that weighs next to nothing
>> > and
>> >> doesn't even have functioning doors...yeah, world class! Minus its
>> >> exotic $60,000 LiIon battery pack and using lead acid technology like
>> >> the DC cars, again already pointed out, it's slower in every regard
>> >> than a 34 year old DC powered, factory built, steel constructed
>> >> sedan....yeah, world class! How 'bout that skeleton 'thing'?...I
> refuse
>> >> to call it a car! It's not even close to being a real car (a tube
> frame
>> >> with tires) and again, running a mega dollar LiIon battery pack,
> it ran
>> >> a 'claimed' 11.95 only after cheating with a running start, and
> even at
>> >> this, there were no timing lights to make it accurate, just some
> dudes
>> >> with hand-held stop watches...what a joke, and what an insult to
> those
>> >> who take their machines to properly timed tracks and get real time
>> > slips
>> >> from a standing start. I have a time slip showing that my car has
>> > really
>> >> run a 12.151 ET, and it did it from a standing start. If I were a
>> >> cheating man, I could do a rolling start as they did in those goofy
>> >> Wright Speed videos, and could probably rip off a low 11 or even a
>> > high 10!
>> >>
>> >> >Happily. http://www.wrightspeed.com/x1.html It has done 11.5
> seconds.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Spin again? At the referenced site, did you not see the '~' in
> front of
>> >> the 11.5 second claim? That little squiggly thing means
> 'approximate',
>> >> meaning that they haven't really done this, that they haven't got a
>> > time
>> >> slip to prove it, that they are BS-ing! By the way, an 11.5 is what
>> > real
>> >> drag racers call a 'mid 11', not a low eleven...more spin? The truth
>> > is,
>> >> the best ET they claim to have any witnesses to, is the
> aforementioned
>> >> cheater's rolling start 11.95....give me a break!
>> >>
>> >> >Then at the end of the 10-11 second race day, you just charge up and
>> >> >drive home instead of trailering your race specific vehicle back to
>> >> >the shop.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Geesh....where did all this come from? Are you really trying to
>> > convince
>> >> us that AC is soooooo much better, that it can perform miracles? Or,
>> > are
>> >> you just assuming that only AC system can uses LiIons? By the way, I
>> >> 'do' just charge up and drive home after racing.
>> >> My car is anything but race specific, if you're pointing fingers this
>> >> way. It's got more range than many everyday conversions, and it's
>> > driven
>> >> often. Unlike the Wright Speed you're so stoked about, my car
> actually
>> >> has doors you can lock, windows that roll up and down,
>> >> a roof over your head, and full body work....which car did you
> say was
>> >> race specific?
>> >>
>> >> >If it wasn't for Otmar, EV drag racing would not be where it is
> today
>> >> >for many folks.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> So Otmar single handedly invented electric drag racing? I think he'd
>> >> find that amusing!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >Not everyone can get a battery sponsorship
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> That's correct. It takes years of hard work, creativity, ingenuity,
>> >> dedication, credibility, and real documented results to 'earn'
>> > sponsorship.
>> >>
>> >> Mike, you need to get out more :-) If you think a low quality kit car
>> >> that doesn't have the average features of an econobox sedan (doors,
>> >> widows, etc.) with an inverter, AC motor, and ultra high cost
> batteries
>> >> is state of the art...or...if you think a few twisted tubes with
> tires
>> >> at each corner and exaggerated stats obtained from over-zealous
>> >> marketeers is state of the art, please at least take a look at a real
=== message truncated ===
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You sent it to the list- Good luck on your endeavors.
Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Mike,
Thanks for the note! Do not get my criticism wrong. I am not against AC.
In fact just to the contrary. I personally am selling my house and one of my
businesses to help pay for development of a high power AC drive. No I am not
selling EV Parts. Please do not take any of this to the list. It is not a
signed deal yet. My house hasn't even sold yet. The problem is that no one
makes a high power AC drive. Heck, when I first got involved in EV racing no
one was making a high power DC drive either.
Concerning efficiency, believe it or not some of us currently racing with
DC understand that if you are creating heat you are not creating horsepower.
When you are limited by lead acid batteries and you have to haul all that
weight down the track with you then you want as much horsepower that is in
those batteries to reach the road as possible.
You said you will be around the Tesla people next week. I assume you mean
Martin. I already talked to him while we were both in Los Angeles for the
Los Angeles film premier of WKTEC. I enquired about bringing a prototype to
the strip and he said he wanted to wait until the production cars were out.
I think from a business perspective this is viable. I still have my doubts
about the Wrightspeed and will still continue to have them until I see a
REAL time slip. In drag racing the first 60 feet are critical. Most cars
with enough torque to pull a good sixty foot time, i.e. sub 12 second cars
have enough torque to overcome the weight of the vehicle on launch.
Considering how light the X1 is it wouldn't take much to make it airborne
and it just doesn't do this. My logic would dictate that it would not have a
great sixty foot time, therefore not be in the tens. I would love to be
proven wrong by a time slip. As you say, they are in business to make money
and BS always sells better than truth in the marketing world. Just out of
curiosity, what is the quickest car you have ever owned or drove?
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips"
To: "Roderick Wilde"
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
> Roderick,
>
> I will find out the info on the clutch for you.
>
> The X1 was made for efficiency. It just happens to also be very quick.
> If it had one more gear and slicks, it would easily pull 10's.
> Remember this car doesn't even spin the tires when it launches. The
> 150+kw system could easily be tweaked thru software to put out more
> power instead of trying to conserve the battery pack. 150kw is what it
> will put out as long as the pack can supply it. Not a peak spec.
>
> I've ridden in the X1. I'm telling you that this car is not even race
> prepped and it will take down anything that is not race prepped, and
> most of what is race prepped and streetable.
>
> I'd love nothing more than to see and AC/DC shootout at some track.
> But please remember that the guys building this stuff are trying to
> make a living at it. Will they have time? We'll see.
>
> I promise you when I am around the Tesla Motors car next weekend, I'll
> press the time slip issue in a big way.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roderick Wilde" wrote:
>>
>> Mike, a few questions to make things clear for me. What car uses a
>> $30,000.00 clutch assembly. I have been racing electric cars for a
> while and
>> gas cars as well and I have never heard of such a thing. Please
> quote the
>> brand and a URL.
>>
>> You also state that no DC powered car can beat the X1. Are you
> seriously
>> telling the EV community and the world through your post that the X1
> turns
>> in the 10s in the quarter mile? That is what it would take to beat the
>> quickest DC powered street car. You can't be serious? John has a
> relatively
>> slow DC powered street EV from my perspective :-) and I personally
> have seen
>> his time slips. My money would be on his car in a drag race with the X1.
>>
>> If you know the folks with the X1 then tell them they are invited
> to the
>> NEDRA Nationals. It would be a great crowd pleaser! I would say it
> is time
>> for the X1 to splurge and spend the 20 bucks and get their car timed
> with
>> modern technology timing equipment and then show the world their
> time slip.
>> You do believe in modern technology, right. As Dennis Berube says: "The
>> proof is in the time slip"
>>
>> Roderick Wilde
>> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
>> www.suckamps.com
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mike Phillips"
>> To: "John Wayland"
>> Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 4:26 PM
>> Subject: Re: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
>>
>>
>> >I bet you said that in one breath too John!
>> >
>> > It's clear to me that you are not a fan of technology. Composite
>> > construction, tube frames and AC are not something you've looked into
>> > for racing apparently. In fact you call them silly. These AC companies
>> > have and are using it effectively too. You choose to overlook one
>> > thing, these AC cars want to go hundreds of miles on a charge as well
>> > as go fast, very very fast. Can any DC car make claims like that?
>> > Nope. Never will be able too either.
>> >
>> > I don't think these EV companies are missing the boat by going with AC
>> > systems over DC. The common thread is that each new EV company keeps
>> > picking AC systems to run world class acceleration with. There must be
>> > something to these AC systems. But how can they keep missing the
>> > benfits of DC?
>> >
>> > You use to own the same type of USE truck that I do? How cool is
>> > that?? Did you know the USE charger can charge any voltage pack?? Did
>> > you know it can charge Nimh or Lead acid? Did you look into that while
>> > you owned it? Of course you did....
>> >
>> > Did you know the 20kw charger in the ACP cars is user adjustable on
>> > the dash board for any voltage AC going in or DC voltage going out
>> > from technology that was designed over 15 years ago??
>> >
>> > A 20kw charger for $300??
>> >
>> > Nobody on this planet can touch that. No extra boxes of hardware to
>> > store at home or in the EV. All built in. Seems to me to be a great
>> > asset to racing. It's part of every AC systems capability and a great
>> > boon for efficiency if weight means anything
>> >
>> > The X1 did a rolling start due to the objections of the other vehicles
>> > owner not wanting to toast a $30,000 clutch assy. So Ian agreed to a
>> > rolling start. The other vehicles he raced were standing starts. I've
>> > ridden in the X1 and your not going to beat it with any DC car.
>> >
>> > Remember John, if the X1 and Tzero had a transmission that could shift
>> > just one more gear, then their top ends would be far higher. They go
>> > with no gears as it takes away from their ultimate goal of efficency
>> > and lighter weight. Yet they still hold their own against world class
>> > street legal cars.
>> >
>> > Keep advancing the cause of DC John. Just close your doors, very very
>> > tightly....
>> >
>> > Mike
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Wayland wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hello to All,
>> >>
>> >> Whew...where to start answering all this? Mike, you seem to be
> zealous
>> >> over AC to the point that you are putting a spin on stats. You
> compare
>> >> apples to oranges, then do your best to convince others its apples to
>> >> apples. Follow me here, as I take your points one at a time.
>> >>
>> >> Mike Phillips wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >I know I sure want a performance EV. But I would not do it with DC.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Then you would be making a big mistake, and dollar for dollar, you'd
>> > get
>> >> your high tech doors blown off by DC...unless of course, you do
> it with
>> >> the silly Wright Speed skeleton 'thing', then you wouldn't have any
>> >> doors to get blown off.
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >Expanding slighty on John's points. I would add that every EV drag
>> >> >racer has to have a good charger too.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Already got that with 12 kw Manzanita Micro chargers that we can
> easily
>> >> use on other DC cars, making them way more useful than one that's
> stuck
>> >> inside a high dollar AC car.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >A major benefit of an AC system
>> >> >is that for about $300 it's very easy to make the AC system do dual
>> >> >duty as a charger.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> These Manzanita Micro chargers can charge 'any' EV's pack, not
> just the
>> >> captive one connected to an AC machine. Last night at the races was a
>> >> perfect example. We used Manzanita Micro chargers to charge a
> 192V drag
>> >> bike, a 120V convertible, a 240V 914, a 24V bike, a 360V car, and
> a 72V
>> >> drag bike....even standby 12V batteries one at a time!
>> >>
>> >> > What's that worth?
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Last night, where the real EV races were, it would have been
> worthless!
>> >> And speaking of worthless, in the case of the AC powered Chevy S10
>> >> pickup I had for several months, it also wasn't worth anything. In
>> > fact,
>> >> this over-priced, slow as molasses EV ($45,000 back in '98) with its
>> >> under-powered Dolphin Hughes AC system with built-in inverter-based
>> >> charger, was thrown away by the utility company that got duped into
>> >> buying it, because the charger failure took down the entire inverter.
>> >> Yeah, great idea there! After buying the over-priced AC truck and
>> > having
>> >> such a dismal experience, the utility company gave up on EVs.
>> >>
>> >> >The one area that AC loses today is the purchase price. You got me
>> >> >there.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> No, I got you on many, many other areas as well...you're only
> admitting
>> >> to the price.
>> >>
>> >> >But someone could make an AC system that was Otmar-esque. A
>> >> >sane, simple box....
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> What on earth is sane and simple about anything Otmar builds? His .6
>> >> megawatt capable controller is not what most would consider
> sane...more
>> >> like over-the-top, over-built, but certainly not sane! The Zilla and
>> >> Hairball are anything but simple...they are advanced pieces of
>> > equipment
>> >> that provide tremendous power, flexibility, and reliability.
>> >>
>> >> >For performance, an AC motor can out rev a DC motor by a huge
> margin.
>> >> >Mine goes to 9k rpm all day long.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Where did you get the idea, that all you have to do, is be able
> to rev
>> >> to high rpm's to get performance? The Brusa AC system that was in
>> >> Otmar's Sprint could rev to 9 or 10 grand, too, but it went 0-60 in
>> >> about a day and a half. Your Dolphin may rev, but I doubt it can even
>> >> remotely touch a DC system's performance at 1/3 the cost!
>> >>
>> >> >ACP motors rev to 13k rpm all day
>> >> >long.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> And yet, when doing an honest apples to apples comparison with my DC
>> >> car, that is, both cars weighing exactly the same 2450 lbs. when
>> > powered
>> >> by AGM lead acid batteries, they are slower to 60 by at least a half
>> >> second, slower in the 1/4 mile standing start drag race by more
> than a
>> >> second (a huge margin in terms of 1/4 mile ET) with their 13.24 ET
>> > vs my
>> >> 12.151 ET, slower to 100 mph...oops, sorry, in order to get its 0-60
>> >> time down it had to be geared appropriately and thus it couldn't even
>> >> hit 100 and only ran 90 mph, and slower in top speed than my old
>> > tech DC
>> >> powered Datsun that's got rear doors, windows....well, it's a car,
>> > not a
>> >> plastic toy.
>> >>
>> >> Even with the HUGE advantage of a mega dollar LiIon pack, my DC
> car can
>> >> still whup the tZero. Looks like all those rpms didn't do
> sh....t! Ever
>> >> wonder what that fiberglass curiosity would do if you took out that
>> >> wimpy 150 kw power train, and dropped in the 350 kw power train of
>> > White
>> >> Zombie and fed it with those LiIons?
>> >>
>> >> >AC motors do not have brushes and
>> >> >all the assorted headaches.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Hmmm....the brushes in Blue Meanie are original, been in the car
> for 12
>> >> years, and are still at 60% or so. No headaches to speak of,
> other than
>> >> those caused by my head getting slammed back into the head rests.
>> >>
>> >> >If you want to run more voltage you
>> >> >just....run more voltage. No arc over headaches.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> A valid point when under the extremes of racing, but certainly not
>> > valid
>> >> at all for regular street cars.
>> >>
>> >> >AC systems create a very flat torque curve via the electronics.
> That's
>> >> >a drag racers wet dream.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Actually, it's you that's all wet. AC cars typically have a very soft
>> >> low end, that's why they need to be geared down. As the revs go
> up, the
>> >> torque curve rises and eventually flattens out from 2000-8000
> rpm, then
>> >> they fall off. High voltage DC drives are flat from the beginning
> with
>> >> near instantaneous bottom end torque that stays flat until about 6000
>> >> rpm then ramps down, for about the same bandwidth of power as the AC
>> >> drive, but with the advantage of the power being available far
> sooner,
>> >> where you need it most.
>> >>
>> >> >The other benefit of AC over DC is that you don't need a battery
> pack
>> >> >that can source 2000 amps.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Boy, the spin is getting thick here! Why do you AC guys have to use
>> >> theses tactics to 'try' prove your points? You certainly don't need
>> > 2000
>> >> amps with DC to easily match or exceed the 100 kw power level of
> AC, in
>> >> fact, run at the same voltage of the typical 100 kw AC system, the
>> >> current is the same for DC. Even at half the voltage, you only
> need 700
>> >> or so, not 2000! The fact is, at 2000 amps the DC system simply blows
>> >> away the AC system stuck at a restrictive 350 amps. Two cars with the
>> >> same voltage pack, same weight, but one DC and the other AC, will
> have
>> >> to draw the same current to get similar performance.
>> >>
>> >> You seem to be parroting what you've been told. AC drives 'typically'
>> >> powered at 100 kw do it by using ~300V at 350 amps, where DC systems
>> >> typically can do 100 kw at ~150V or so at 700 amps. The AC promoters
>> >> 'spin' this by dodging the fact that they can't make an
> affordable high
>> >> current inverter that can handle 700 amps for a sensible lower
> voltage
>> >> system, so they simply tout that they only need 350 amps to make
> their
>> >> 100 kw of power. The reason for this is obvious to most of us. AC
>> >> inverters that aren't in the $20k range, can't handle anymore
> amps than
>> >> this, thus, the only way to make 100 kw of power is to raise the
>> > voltage
>> >> high enough so that amps X volts equals 100 kw. DC can do it at half
>> > the
>> >> voltage, making for a much less expensive battery pack consisting of
>> >> just 13, 12V modules...your beloved AC can't do this and still
> make 100
>> >> kw. What you omit in your apples to oranges comparison, is that a
> 300V
>> >> DC system.... 'surprise'....also only draws 350 amps to make 100
> kw of
>> >> power. I wonder why you leave this part out? This seems to be a
> common
>> >> thread among AC lovers. Now, to take away your AC spin, let's restate
>> >> the above:
>> >>
>> >> The other benefit of DC over AC is that you don't need a high
>> > voltage battery pack
>> >> to make reasonable power (100 kw)...you can do it with half the
>> > number of batteries sourcing 700 amps. Additionally, with the higher
>> > performance DC systems, sourcing 2000 amps at higher voltages can make
>> > power levels 4 times higher for the same price as a 100 kw AC system!!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Next up:
>> >>
>> >> >A 1000 amp AC system would be a sub 10
>> >> >second vehicle.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> OK......and where's this 1000 amp AC system that can be had at
> the same
>> >> price as a Zilla Z2K with DC motor? And why do you think a 1000
> amp AC
>> >> system could even stay close to a 2000 amp DC system?
>> >>
>> >> >How do I know this? Because the fast AC systems now
>> >> >are pulling 500-700 amps, and are running in the low 11's.
>> >> >Yes they were 1/4 mile runs done at Moffet Field. I think there are
>> >> >videos out there as I recall.
>> >> >Don't let the cost of these cars blind you to the most simple part.
>> >> >These AC car makers are making world class machines.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Boy, are your facts screwed up! First, the 'cars' you refer to are
>> >> nothing close to regular cars. The tZero as already pointed out, is a
>> >> toy-like kit car of flimsy build quality that weighs next to nothing
>> > and
>> >> doesn't even have functioning doors...yeah, world class! Minus its
>> >> exotic $60,000 LiIon battery pack and using lead acid technology like
>> >> the DC cars, again already pointed out, it's slower in every regard
>> >> than a 34 year old DC powered, factory built, steel constructed
>> >> sedan....yeah, world class! How 'bout that skeleton 'thing'?...I
> refuse
>> >> to call it a car! It's not even close to being a real car (a tube
> frame
>> >> with tires) and again, running a mega dollar LiIon battery pack,
> it ran
>> >> a 'claimed' 11.95 only after cheating with a running start, and
> even at
>> >> this, there were no timing lights to make it accurate, just some
> dudes
>> >> with hand-held stop watches...what a joke, and what an insult to
> those
>> >> who take their machines to properly timed tracks and get real time
>> > slips
>> >> from a standing start. I have a time slip showing that my car has
>> > really
>> >> run a 12.151 ET, and it did it from a standing start. If I were a
>> >> cheating man, I could do a rolling start as they did in those goofy
>> >> Wright Speed videos, and could probably rip off a low 11 or even a
>> > high 10!
>> >>
>> >> >Happily. http://www.wrightspeed.com/x1.html It has done 11.5
> seconds.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Spin again? At the referenced site, did you not see the '~' in
> front of
>> >> the 11.5 second claim? That little squiggly thing means
> 'approximate',
>> >> meaning that they haven't really done this, that they haven't got a
>> > time
>> >> slip to prove it, that they are BS-ing! By the way, an 11.5 is what
>> > real
>> >> drag racers call a 'mid 11', not a low eleven...more spin? The truth
>> > is,
>> >> the best ET they claim to have any witnesses to, is the
> aforementioned
>> >> cheater's rolling start 11.95....give me a break!
>> >>
>> >> >Then at the end of the 10-11 second race day, you just charge up and
>> >> >drive home instead of trailering your race specific vehicle back to
>> >> >the shop.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Geesh....where did all this come from? Are you really trying to
>> > convince
>> >> us that AC is soooooo much better, that it can perform miracles? Or,
>> > are
>> >> you just assuming that only AC system can uses LiIons? By the way, I
>> >> 'do' just charge up and drive home after racing.
>> >> My car is anything but race specific, if you're pointing fingers this
>> >> way. It's got more range than many everyday conversions, and it's
>> > driven
>> >> often. Unlike the Wright Speed you're so stoked about, my car
> actually
>> >> has doors you can lock, windows that roll up and down,
>> >> a roof over your head, and full body work....which car did you
> say was
>> >> race specific?
>> >>
>> >> >If it wasn't for Otmar, EV drag racing would not be where it is
> today
>> >> >for many folks.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> So Otmar single handedly invented electric drag racing? I think he'd
>> >> find that amusing!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >Not everyone can get a battery sponsorship
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> That's correct. It takes years of hard work, creativity, ingenuity,
>> >> dedication, credibility, and real documented results to 'earn'
>> > sponsorship.
>> >>
>> >> Mike, you need to get out more :-) If you think a low quality kit car
>> >> that doesn't have the average features of an econobox sedan (doors,
>> >> widows, etc.) with an inverter, AC motor, and ultra high cost
> batteries
>> >> is state of the art...or...if you think a few twisted tubes with
> tires
>> >> at each corner and exaggerated stats obtained from over-zealous
>> >> marketeers is state of the art, please at least take a look at a real
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--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 19:26:28 -0400, you wrote:
>Dose anybody have any zilla's in stock ? Would be intresting to see one on e
>bay , I'd bet they'll get more than list price right now .
>steve clunn
The last two controllers I followed on E-bay went for just short of
full price and they were used. Raptor 600 and Curtis 1221c.
R. Matt Milliron
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 1:17 AM
Subject: Re: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too -
Snip-a-bit;
>
> The problem is that there are few readily available sep-ex motors and
> controllers suited to road EVs. I don't see this changing any time soon -
in
> fact with the adoption of AC induction motors in forklifts, it seems more
> likely that those drives will fall to the price range that hobbyist EVers
> are willing to pay before sep-ex drives do.
>
> I like AC induction for the reasons you cite, but sep-ex also looks good
to
> me.
>
Hi EVerybody;
I'm with Dave here! Sep Ex's are the way to go, for a poor man's regen
and stuff.After all, the BIGGIE for AC drive is the regen, somewhere behind
,is the non brush issue. Have driven Sep Ex autos, home brew stuff, of 40
years ago. Cool driving without having to touch the brake til ya almost
stop, and hundreds of amps of Regen. Amtrak's AEM-7 electric locos were Sep
Ex too. Loved their performance. Althouigh the AEM-7's are being rebuilt as
AC. Sigh! One of the " feastures" of a AC drive loco is a slam start, for
lack of a better term. A bang when you first open the throttle, well,
actually a Pot setup,5k? I don't know<g>!Train is so damn HEAVY you don't
notice it back in the coaches but WE do, as drivers!It isn't as smooth as
the DC on launches, then a sort of cogging effect as you start your takeoff
roll.Oh it isn't objectional, but it is just THERE. The glass smooth DC
thing sorta grows on you when you drive trains for a living.
But AC seems to be the way to go on a production car, EVen though I'm
nodding along with John Wayland on his AC DC argument. How can you diss a
EV-1 or Toyota Rav-4. God! PERFECTION! They just joyfully go! Glass smooth,
and power vastly in excess of requirments ,to quote Tom Edison. Al so an
avid EVer, of sorts. But he would be bummed out by AC's progress, as he was
the origional DC guy.He an' Tesla, Nicola, wern't buddies, way back when!
So, in MY humble opinion, the AC will rule. When car co's like Tesla, who
HAVE deep pockets and the bux to engineer the car and control system,from
the ground up.Hmmm? Sorta like John has done with the Zombie" We Break
Things so You Don't HAVE to" takes on mew meaning here. With General Murders
and Toyota they took the time to enginner things for the rest of us. Both of
their vehicle examples are, and were plenty fast, for us Pee-ons! Where as
John won't or hasn't offered to let me drive the Zombie, yet (hint, hint)
.Charlie Whalen has let me drive his Rav-4, no worries. I could have let
Grandma drive the RAV-4 ,it is perfection for an EV.What the World needs and
wants! EV-1, what's a little wheel slip among friends?I wanted to BUY it on
the spot!
But for an all out racing machine, it is hard to beat DC as John points
out. But , I guess, with enough bux you COULD build a AC machine to match
Zombie. I mean a door slammer that you can bring home the groceries after
the races. Get the Ice Cream home before it is soup, EVen! Hey! All it takes
is money!Lot's of Silly-con . IF the GM team that built the EV-1 was still
together, and had a EV racing dept? Ya know? Win on Sunday, sell on Monday
thing that the Gas Guyz did, in Muscle car daze.There would be a real kick
ass EV-1 Rally Sport, or something? that would have the Zombie for a
mourning snack<g>!Sorry John, but they HAD/have the Bux! The Manhattan
Project took a theory to dreadly bomb in , what? 5 years? Scarry!We COULD do
it quicker with EV's as the technology is HERE, now!
> My two Watts ,DC or AC worth.
Bob
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