EV Digest 6491
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Battery Woes- reverse compensation?
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Batteries for small high voltage conversion
by Tom Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: Airlabcorp nmih batteries
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: Should I buy 2 more batteries?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: PFC 20 thermal compensation and Should I replace 2 batteries
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: PFC 20 thermal compensation
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: axles/ t-bird rear
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV bashing, RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: axles/ t-bird rear
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Batteries for small high voltage conversion
by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Weight Distribution for Pickup Trucks
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Batteries for small high voltage conversion
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Should I buy 2 more batteries?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Weight Distribution for Pickup Trucks
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Battery Woes
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: PFC 20 thermal compensation
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: any suggestions for traction pack powered accessory fuses?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Purpose-built, stripped of comforts? Comments.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Tim -
The temperature compensation should be the reverse of what you posted - you
need higher charging voltages at lower battery temperatures. Was that just
a typo in your post, or have you been compensating in the wrong direction?
Phil
From: TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Battery Woes
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:28:29 -0800 (PST)
OK, I followed the US battery recommendations for
charging my pack. I set the voltage for 2.583 Volts
per cell, plus .0028V per cell per degree above 80F,
and Minus .0028V per degree below 80F. I generally
started the charge at ~20 amps, after the voltage was
reached the current would taper to ~5 amps and shut
off after ~1 hour. I ran light cycles on the pack and
I programmed the voltage limit to 130V and the current
limit to 350, but seldom went over 250.
What do I need to do different to make a new pack
last longer? I'm supposed to kill my first pack,
apparently it's dead. I'm trying to figure out how I
killed it and what I can do to prevent the same thing
happening to a replacement pack. Would a set of zener
regs have helped? I was under the impression I could
get away with an occasional equalization charge. The
wet cells would use a little more water, refill and
all is well.
TiM
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm converting a mini http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini it's rolling
resistance is 11kW at 95km/h, or 186Wh/mile at 95km/h. I indend to use a
Siemens AC motor and controller with at least 240V.
I desire 50km range at 95km/h and 100% depth of discharge, this
discharges the batteries in 32 minutes. I don't intend to ever drive
50km on the motorway, but I would like to build in some buffer for when
the batteries get tired, and of course, I don't want to discharge the
pack too far. I'm ignoring non-motorway range as the 50km/h rolling
resistance is less than half that at 95km/h and I never drive very far
around town.
I'm assuming 85% efficiency. At 240V this means 27Ah and at 288V, 22Ah,
both at the 30 minute discharge rate.
I believe I can install 300kg of batteries, but would like to stay under
250kg. The car weighs 690kg with the ICE in it. I will likely sacrifice
the rear seat, both to improve the weight budget and to locate
batteries. The final weight will have to be negotiated with an engineer
-- in New Zealand you must have a suitably licensed engineer approve
most major modifications to cars.
Does anyone have any recommendations for suitable batteries? I have
prepared a table of batteries
http://carrott.org/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/BatteryChoices where I have
calculated the half hour rate and also estimated the range using
puekert's law.
I have been quoted US$4500, or $225 each, for 20 Optima Yellowtop D51
batteries in New Zealand. I'm not really willing to spend more than US
$3000 for a pack. Does anyone have any recent prices for optima
batteries in the USA? We pay a premium for being on the other side of
the world, but US$225 seems excessive.
Are the smaller Exide Orbital batteries suitable for EV usage? Their
webpage isn't very clear. Does anyone have any idea of the half hour
rate capacity for the smaller or indeed any model orbital?
Is my assumption of 85% efficency reasonable? I'm planning to copy
Kaptian Kleaver and connect the motor to a modified mini gearbox with
a belt. Whether this will work at 10000rpm is a question for another
day. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/electric.mini/motor/motor_and_box.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 2/28/07 10:12:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
Date: 2/28/07 10:12:05 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Roderick Wilde)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Hey Dennis, I first want to thank you very much for the very special
compliment. Concerning Junior Electric Dragsters racing against electrics, I
would have assumed that in the last several years you would have had the
opportunity to express your disapproval with the original NHRA ruling to
have electric junior dragsters race against only electrics and not head to
head with the gas boys since you have been directly involved with the rules
committees. It seems logical that you would have the ruling changed just
like you did with the ruling for sealed/vented nicad batteries which all of
us in the real world know do not exist . You however convinced a multi
million dollar corporation, the NHRA, that they do in fact exist and got
them to put them in their rule book. Do you actually realize how foolish you
made them look as a corporation >>
**First of all I did not make any of these comments on jr.dragsters.As far as
the sealed nicads that nhra has printed in their tech.book please go to the
Acme Nicad spec book,their you will find info on the totaly sealed fmc battery
they sell.It is a sealed set of cells in a vented aero case.Nhra took the
specs.off the acme nicads manual.Nedra should correct nhra if they do not like
the
termanolgy.Nedra should also introduce nhra to the various lithiums that are
now not in the tech.book.Nedra in my opinon should also lobby nhra to allow
jr.dragsters to race against the ices as I do. Dennis Berube**
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How is that project going? What kind of range
increase does Ed get with his Sparrow? How reliable
is the BMS and has he had any batteries fail or get
out of balance.
Rod
--- Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Feb 28, 2007, at 4:15 PM, Daniel Eyk wrote:
>
> > Does anyone know if Air Lab Corp is producing the
> NMIH
> > battery systems yet?
>
> The last we heard from Ed Ang on the list he was
> only going to sell the
> GAIA I battery systems to OEMs and not to hobbyists.
>
> However, while looking for his web site just now, I
> stumbled across a
> page on the "Electric Cars are for Girls" website
> that says the author
> had recently spoken to Ed and he was reconsidering
> his decision, and if
> you want some NiMH batteries to drop him a line and
> ask about it. The
> page was dated Feb. 8, 2007.
>
>
<http://www.electric-cars-are-for-girls.com/Charge_On-zenn-of-
>
> batteries.html>
>
> > I read about them in EAA's
> > Current Events and am interested in them. Dan Eyk
>
> AIR Lab's website is here:
>
> <http://www.airlabcorp.com/>
>
> Contact info is there if you want to email Ed and
> ask if he will sell
> you some product.
>
> Let us know what you find out!
>
> --
> Doug Weathers
> Las Cruces, NM, USA
> http://www.gdunge.com/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 2/28/07 7:06:59 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
Date: 2/28/07 7:06:59 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bill Dube)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Junior Johnson said it best:
"The way to make a small fortune in racing is to begin with a large fortune."
Bill Dube'
At 07:30 PM 2/28/2007, you wrote:
>HI-
>John, you are rich. Maybe not with stacks of money,but in all the ways that
>count.
>FT. >>
I race the CE as a hobby racer.I race an ev because I having fun,and ev
racing still has large learning curve.With ice drag racing just put down your
money at the local racer warehouse and go as fast as you want to go.With our
winnings over the ices bracket racing the last 2 years I have covered my racing
expense but have not made a dime more. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have heard that I should wait an hour or even wait 12hour to get a
good indication of state of charge, I have heard I should check them
while under load. and have done all the above. measureing immediatly
after a decent discharge seems to be a better indicator, At least with
these Orbitals. I did run these tests..
fully charge
wait an hour
measure and record all voltages
consume 2.8kwh
wait hour
measure and record all voltages
load test at 250A for 15 sec, recording lowest voltage
This is how I found 4 batteries lower than the rest 2 that were
plummeting at the 15 sec mark.
I performed the above test twice.
I replaced the worst 2 and things were much better.
checked voltages 1 hour after 2.8kwh consumption. normal varience
repeated test measureing voltage immediatly after drive.
the two batteries in question showed a 1V drop from rest of pack.
so I tried a 5kwh drive and measured the voltages after the drive
those 2 batteries were 11.1V while the rest were 12.1, the new batteries
were 12.3
I kinda use measurements after an hour of waiting to get an accurate
indicator of state of charge for a pack in good condition, but check
voltage right after pulling AH out to get a relative health picture. The
agms seem to lie about state of charge a little.
The goal here is not to restore my 24-27mile range but to get it back to
the 12-14 needed for the commute.(I can't afford a new pack right now)
I have 24 orbitals ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) with about 4000 miles
on them. For the first 4 months I charged at work so 2.8/9.8=30% (.3 cycle)
Then 4 months of 14mile 5kwh/9.8kwh =51% (.5 cycle)
cycle guestimation?
4months * .3cycle * 2 times a day = 67 full cycles
4months * .5cycle * 1 time per day = 56 full cycles
This seems to indicate that I am under the half way on the cycle life of
this pack at 123 cycles. I expected 2 years at least and I sure hear of
people with packs lasting longer. I know we are expected to murder our
first pack, but what did I do wrong,more to the point what do I do
differnetly on the next pack?
I have a PFC20 with regs.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Everyone: I have regs, I have had regs since day 1.
So How the heck do I change charge voltage??? The regs control the
charge voltage per battery, NOT THE CHARGER (but it can limit it to less
than the regs) am I expected to mess with each reg's voltage adjustment
twice a year?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph : Rudmen regs. Of course I have a regbus and of course it is
connected, It is a fire hazard not to! regs are useless without the
regbus connected to the charger.
I don't know what you mean by "charger set to taper", It doesn't do
that, it never has. It sharply cuts back on the amps. When all the regs
are flashing I go turn down the current knob so they flash slowly and I
get some equilizing amps without flickering the lights in the house. I
understand this is "normal" for the series regs I have with the series
charger I have.
with "tell the charger to back off as each battery comes up to voltage for
their present temperature"
It sounds like you are saying the regs have thermal compensation. As
long as you are not talking about the temp sensing of the heatsink. What
I want to know is if the AIR temp is 50degrees does the regulator change
the voltage at which point it begins to bypass? (what are these values
anyway)
(I apologize to all if I am asking or answering questions already done,
We had a nasty power outage and I am behind on my email)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
9 foot net gain motors will tend to do that ;-) I think, (at least in
this country) it is common to use 9' to mean 9 feet and 9" to mean 9 inch.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Mark Brueggemann wrote:
> > The primary reason I'm driving a "lead pig" is I stand a
> > chance of surviving an encounter with another vehicle.
--- Lee Hart replied:
> It's interesting that you drive a pickup, which is second
> only to sports cars for its poor crash safety.
>
> Scratch built cars can be as safe, or even safer than
> conventional cars.
Agreed. But, my comparison was to the EWoody, not a
race car with a roll cage.
> The Sunrise EV that I'm working on has been also
> successfully crash tested.
Excellent. When the EWoody passes a crash test, I'll be
a believer. *But not until then*. Think about how you
would sell that idea to the general public. "You'll save
hundreds of dollars on gas every year, but your odds of
getting injured or killed in it are pretty high". You're
not going to get the majority of people interested in EV's
until they are nearly form, fit and function to ICE.
Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> From: David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2007/02/28 Wed PM 12:55:34 EST
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: axles/ t-bird rear
>
> Steve, was this the car that had the VW transaxle? Or did you strip a Porsche
> transaxle?
>
This was the original tranny , and as the 68 912 had a 4 cylinder , not a meaty
one ,the one with the vw transaxle did end up with a good Porsche transaxle
and the car sold for 35k Funny thing is Paul is selling more conversions that
me ,,, He's got 5 cars ordered ,,, all for big dollars with his kit car body on
them .
Steve clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Go for Lithiums! Here's some numbers FYI:
240V, 27Ah = ~6.5kWh battery pack. Thunder Sky lithiums (for example)
are a little under US$0.50/Wh, pretty much bang on $3K for 6.5kWh.
For comparison with Optima Yellowtop D51s:
- 66x Thunder Sky TS-LFP40AHA lithium cells = 240V 40Ah @ 1C. Weight
is 99kg / 218lb. 2000 cycle life @ 80% DOD (claimed, anyway).
- 20x D51s = 240v 40Ah @ C20, 26Ah @1C. Weight is 236kgs / 520lb.
500 cycle life @ 80% DOD?
So those lead acids cost more and weigh over twice as much for 60% of
the capacity @1C, not to mention the difference in cycle life.
Extrapolating by comparison with the D51s, you should get ~75kms
range with the lithiums. (OTOH they would be more effort because
you'd need a BMS and custom charging solution...)
Just a thought!
-Ian
On 01/03/2007, at 8:22 PM, Tom Parker wrote:
I'm converting a mini http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini it's rolling
resistance is 11kW at 95km/h, or 186Wh/mile at 95km/h. I indend to
use a
Siemens AC motor and controller with at least 240V.
I desire 50km range at 95km/h and 100% depth of discharge, this
discharges the batteries in 32 minutes. I don't intend to ever drive
50km on the motorway, but I would like to build in some buffer for
when
the batteries get tired, and of course, I don't want to discharge the
pack too far. I'm ignoring non-motorway range as the 50km/h rolling
resistance is less than half that at 95km/h and I never drive very far
around town.
I'm assuming 85% efficiency. At 240V this means 27Ah and at 288V,
22Ah,
both at the 30 minute discharge rate.
I believe I can install 300kg of batteries, but would like to stay
under
250kg. The car weighs 690kg with the ICE in it. I will likely
sacrifice
the rear seat, both to improve the weight budget and to locate
batteries. The final weight will have to be negotiated with an
engineer
-- in New Zealand you must have a suitably licensed engineer approve
most major modifications to cars.
Does anyone have any recommendations for suitable batteries? I have
prepared a table of batteries
http://carrott.org/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/BatteryChoices where I have
calculated the half hour rate and also estimated the range using
puekert's law.
I have been quoted US$4500, or $225 each, for 20 Optima Yellowtop D51
batteries in New Zealand. I'm not really willing to spend more than US
$3000 for a pack. Does anyone have any recent prices for optima
batteries in the USA? We pay a premium for being on the other side of
the world, but US$225 seems excessive.
Are the smaller Exide Orbital batteries suitable for EV usage? Their
webpage isn't very clear. Does anyone have any idea of the half hour
rate capacity for the smaller or indeed any model orbital?
Is my assumption of 85% efficency reasonable? I'm planning to copy
Kaptian Kleaver and connect the motor to a modified mini gearbox with
a belt. Whether this will work at 10000rpm is a question for another
day. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/electric.mini/motor/
motor_and_box.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack Murray wrote:
Oh please; racing is always about the money and the ego. It is
neccessary but not sufficient to have both to win.
Right; it also has to *work*! You can't talk or bribe your way into the
winner's circle.
I wondered early on the list "are EV's just a rich man's hobby?"
Well racing them certainly is.
Judging from the people who have raced their EVs, I'd have to say this
is not true. Most EV racers spend a lot *less* on it than ICE racers.
Many EVers are just racing their regular old daily drivers. Many are on
tight budgets, and spend lots of time and ingenuity to make up for it.
They have to be clever and resourceful instead of relying on fat wallets.
But let's get a reality check, how many times have I read on the list
telling people to coast to stops in their ev's, but try not to piss off
too many people doing it, going 55 when everyone else is going 70, take
off the EV sticker on the car so you don't get EVs a bad rep for being
slow, etc, etc.
That's for a different kind of "race" -- the efficiency race. If you're
driving in the Tour de Sol or wife-vs-EV rally, the winner is the one
that uses the least energy.
If you want to change perceptions, build EVs that actually solve the
real world problems of range, maintenance, charging, conversion cost
and effort, etc, etc.
It's long been said that "racing improves the breed". Nowhere is this
more evident than with EVs. Racing is a way to test your vehicle against
others, demonstrate its strengths, and find ways to improve it.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The original gross weight of my 77 El Camino was 5500 lbs with a payload of
1000 lbs with the front/rear weight distribution of 2000 lbs front and 3500
lbs rear. Now in EV form, its 2640 lbs front and 4220 lbs rear.
The batteries are carry in the box a head of the rear axle where they stay
clean and warm in a triple insulated battery box. The frame members were
box, gusset and added more cross members. The entire suspension system was
replace with a Air Ride system - www.ridetech.com. The differential, axles,
bearings, heavy large diameter torsion bars, brakes and etc was replace by
Mark Williams Enterprise, which are good for a thrust of 22,000 lbs.
www.markwilliams.com
The Air Ride system allows the vehicle to be lower all the way to the
ground, but stops are install so the tires do not contact the inner panels.
This vehicle drives like its on rails. It has less lean than when it was
stock. The traction on snow and snow pack streets is like it was gear to
the road using Pirelli Scorpion sucking power tires.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> - 20x D51s = 240v 40Ah @ C20, 26Ah @1C. Weight is 236kgs / 520lb.
> 500 cycle life @ 80% DOD?
I believe something is wrong with your numbers here. As I recall, 20x
D51s would weigh close to 900 lbs, not 520lb. However, I've never seen a
D51 (I've only seen the D34 and D31) and I'm finding conflicting info on
the web.
Tom's not going to achieve his weight goal with anything short of
Lion/LiPol batteries. However, I think his orignal estimates of power
consumption might be a little low also.
> On 01/03/2007, at 8:22 PM, Tom Parker wrote:
>
>> I'm converting a mini http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini it's rolling
>> resistance is 11kW at 95km/h, or 186Wh/mile at 95km/h. I indend to
>> use a
>> Siemens AC motor and controller with at least 240V.
>>
>> I desire 50km range at 95km/h and 100% depth of discharge, this
>> discharges the batteries in 32 minutes. I don't intend to ever drive
>> 50km on the motorway, but I would like to build in some buffer for
>> when
>> the batteries get tired, and of course, I don't want to discharge the
>> pack too far. I'm ignoring non-motorway range as the 50km/h rolling
>> resistance is less than half that at 95km/h and I never drive very far
>> around town.
>>
>> I'm assuming 85% efficiency. At 240V this means 27Ah and at 288V,
>> 22Ah,
>> both at the 30 minute discharge rate.
>>
>> I believe I can install 300kg of batteries, but would like to stay
>> under
>> 250kg. The car weighs 690kg with the ICE in it. I will likely
>> sacrifice
>> the rear seat, both to improve the weight budget and to locate
>> batteries. The final weight will have to be negotiated with an
>> engineer
>> -- in New Zealand you must have a suitably licensed engineer approve
>> most major modifications to cars.
>>
>> Does anyone have any recommendations for suitable batteries? I have
>> prepared a table of batteries
>> http://carrott.org/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/BatteryChoices where I have
>> calculated the half hour rate and also estimated the range using
>> puekert's law.
>>
>> I have been quoted US$4500, or $225 each, for 20 Optima Yellowtop D51
>> batteries in New Zealand. I'm not really willing to spend more than US
>> $3000 for a pack. Does anyone have any recent prices for optima
>> batteries in the USA? We pay a premium for being on the other side of
>> the world, but US$225 seems excessive.
>>
>> Are the smaller Exide Orbital batteries suitable for EV usage? Their
>> webpage isn't very clear. Does anyone have any idea of the half hour
>> rate capacity for the smaller or indeed any model orbital?
>>
>> Is my assumption of 85% efficency reasonable? I'm planning to copy
>> Kaptian Kleaver and connect the motor to a modified mini gearbox with
>> a belt. Whether this will work at 10000rpm is a question for another
>> day. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/electric.mini/motor/
>> motor_and_box.html
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack Murray wrote:
For all the negatives I hear about the NiMH battery solution I'm
working on, if replacing an entire lead pack is the answer to having
some batteries go bad after a while, the "cheap" lead acid pack
initial cost is really not cheap at all. A large number of small
cells that are paralleled and can be replaced in relatively small
units looks even better.
Sure; just be sure you can tell *which* cells are bad!
In science and engineering, new ideas are critiqued. They get debated.
Some express the pros; others the cons. It isn't meant to discourage
you; it's intended as constructive criticism. Don't take it personally.
Of course, you will occasionally get comments like "that'll never work"
or "what a stupid idea." Ignore them. But pay attention to the ones that
say "did you think of this?" or "so-and-so tried it, and here's what he
found." Here you will find the things to watch out for, and ideas that
you can build upon.
99% of battery applications have *no* battery management. They charge
and discharge them all in series, and never even check individual
voltages. When the pack quits working, they replace *all* of them. Cheap
and easy, but stupid. When you go back in and individually check the
cells in that pack, you will find a few "stinkers" and the rest are
still good.
So, to get better pack life, the rule has been to do whatever is needed
to maximize the life of the weakest cells, and ignore the damage that
does to the best cells. We deliberately overcharge until the weakest
cells are full, even though that destroys the best ones, because we will
throw them *all* out when the weakest one fails.
But now a new paradigm is possible. Given the cheap availability of
computers and electronics, it is possible to monitor every single
cell/battery, and individually manage them for longer life. If you have
a good BMS, you can locate and replace individual cells/batteries as
needed. It costs more initially, but saves money in the long run.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Anyone driving with them below te bed comment on how
> the truck handles roll?
It's like driving a slot car. I have front and rear sway bars
too. It's one of the few "whoopeee" moments I get with my EV.
Taking a freeway offramp at 65+ and doing a four-wheel, all tires
screaming power slide around the curve and coasting to the
intersection is just too cool. Drives the wife nuts.
Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What do I need to do different to make a new pack
> last longer? ... I'm trying to figure out how I
> killed it and what I can do to prevent the same thing
> happening to a replacement pack.
> I was under the impression I could
> get away with an occasional equalization charge. The
> wet cells would use a little more water, refill and
> all is well.
I've had like six different packs in my truck over the
years, and this is my clearly biased and EV-hating opinion
on what works.
First set was a freebie, pulls from the fleet of EV's from
Sandia Labs. They were awful, I don't think there were any
two that were the same capacity and I don't think any of
them were at rated capacity. But the idea was to get the
vehicle going, and work out any bugs with the vehicle and
charger. It was right then and there I learned that no matter
what you do, you can't bring back a weak battery. If it's
old, hurt or worn out, it will never get better. The more
you equalize the hotter they get, and the more water and
electricity they use. How much useful life you get out of
them from that point forward depends on what your actual range
requirements are and how willing you are to constantly mess
around with the charger and keeping tabs on things. It's
a big pain in the ass to babysit a misbehaving battery pack.
Fast forward to today, and I've learned a few things. The
pack life difference between carefully measuring SG of every
cell, monitoring voltages, temperatures, doing capacity testing,
running Peukert curves, careful and regular equalizing, watering,
etc isn't a whole lot different than just charging to 95%,
equalizing every couple of weeks and watering 4 times a year.
When you run into someone that claims they've gotten 25,000
miles out of a set of floodeds, it's usually because they've
only got a ten mile range requirement, and for the past four
years they've had to overcharge the piss out of them and water
them every few weeks just to get that ten miles. I'm not willing
to go through that. So, my philosophy is to buy a new pack,
charge it just enough, equalize gently, and when my range starts
to go below 80% of new (40 miles or so for T-105's) it's time
for a new pack. Technically I'm "throwing away" the last 10-20%
of the pack's life, but if it can't meet the range requirement,
then it's over anyway, as far as I'm concerned. Coincidentally,
that's the same point where their finish current and water usage
starts to go up and it's harder to keep them equalized, so I don't
consider that useful life anyway. I yank 'em, weed out the
weakest with a load test, and keep the best ones for my solar
backup power system.
Anyway, to answer your question about how to not murder your
next pack, I would suggest going with Trojans and screw the
USB's, or any other brand for that matter (for 6V floodeds).
If they are that fussy about bulk, finish and equalization
then forget 'em. The Trojans have always provided consistent and
dependable service in my EV without any undue attention at all.
For the 3 new packs of T-105's I've had, my EV has been plug
and drive. If you want to play beta tester for different batteries
and charge algorithms be my guest, but be prepared to spend a lot
of time and money on batteries. But if you're like me and the EV
has to earn it's keep, you can't be doing too many $2000
experiments.
Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
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--- Begin Message ---
Jeff,
The Rudman Regs do have temperature compensation for the voltage set
point. It does assume that the reg is at the same temperature as the
battery it is monitoring. The surrounding air temperature may well
be different. The voltage set point is adjusted by one of the two
trim pots on the regulator. The other trim pot sets the 'low battery'
set point.
My Rudman Regs are mounted to the top of the batteries they monitor,
and the batteries and regs are in insulated boxes, so the reg's temp
sensor is pretty close to the same temperature as the battery.
You shouldn't have to fiddle with the charger's current knob at all.
The charger will start tapering the current when the first green LED
on the regs starts blinking. As more and more regs start regulating,
the charger's current will eventually drop down to a low value (on my
setup, this is less than one amp). Does your setup do this?
When you "turn down the current knob so they flash slowly", were any
of the LEDs on solid? This would be a Bad Thing! Did you measure
any battery voltages before turning the current down? What current
was flowing before you changed the knob? What current did you adjust
the knob to?
Ralph
Jeff Shanab writes:
>
> Ralph : Rudmen regs. Of course I have a regbus and of course it is
> connected, It is a fire hazard not to! regs are useless without the
> regbus connected to the charger.
>
> I don't know what you mean by "charger set to taper", It doesn't do
> that, it never has. It sharply cuts back on the amps. When all the regs
> are flashing I go turn down the current knob so they flash slowly and I
> get some equilizing amps without flickering the lights in the house. I
> understand this is "normal" for the series regs I have with the series
> charger I have.
>
> with "tell the charger to back off as each battery comes up to voltage for
> their present temperature"
>
>
> It sounds like you are saying the regs have thermal compensation. As
> long as you are not talking about the temp sensing of the heatsink. What
> I want to know is if the AIR temp is 50degrees does the regulator change
> the voltage at which point it begins to bypass? (what are these values
> anyway)
>
>
>
> (I apologize to all if I am asking or answering questions already done,
> We had a nasty power outage and I am behind on my email)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul Wallace wrote:
Currently, I'm using the little glass or ceramic 3AG style fuses for the
heater and DC/DC converter and all the connections to the emeter. These
fuses are rated at 250 volts. The traction pack voltage is nominal 144vdc.
Now that I'm considering going up into the 350vdc range, I'll need fuses
for this application rated for at least 400 volts. I've checked Bussman
and Littlefuse, but so far, I've not found any small fuses that will
work in this application.
What are others using for accessory fuses at these high voltages?
The glass 3AG or AGC size fuses are 250vac/32vdc, or 125vac/32vdc in the
higher current sizes. They will *explode* if used for high voltage DC!
The ceramic 3AB or ABC are rated to 250vdc, or 125vdc in the higher
current sizes. These are the ones to use for your low current
accessories. For higher current fuses (15 amps or more), you have to
go to physically bigger sizes.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 2:11 AM
Subject: Purpose-built, stripped of comforts?
> Hello to All.
>
> Roger Stockton wrote:
>
> >
> >John
> >took a bone stock Datsun 1200 and about $17K later has White Zombie
> >It seems to me that John agrees with this as he made a point of
> >describing his investment in the the Zombie and its performance relative
> >to "muscle car guys and import tuners that have poured $25,000+ into
> >their machines".
> >
> >
>
> Roger, you have a flawed argument, in that you call the $17k I
> mentioned, 'performance mods.', when that's really not accurate. What I
> said was, "about $18k to reproduce it." If you are 'only' considering
> the dollars invested to increase the performance over your friend's
> stock diesel truck's regular performance (and don't include the cost of
> the stock vehicle) on one side of the argument, it is unfair to then
> consider the 'entire cost' that has been put into White Zombie, then
> label all that cost, 'cost of performance mods'. My point...a regular
> conversion of White Zombie would be, say a 156V system, with 13 Optimas,
> a Z1K, and the tranny and clutch. That's about $8-$9k including adapter
> costs, metal work for battery boxes, etc. This is what a non-performance
> type White Zombie would be. Now, subtract that $9k from $18k and it
> leaves $9k in 'mods' to raise the performance level to where it's at.
> That's a far cry from $17-$18k!
>
> Additionally, as those who come watch Tim and I race will attest to,
> many, many of the cars we race against and beat, are gutted shells with
> full racing slicks, super built motors, etc. Several hot Honda guys that
> we beat often, have gutted cars with $25k dumped into them. Same goes
> for some of the classic muscle car guys, too. We show up with about $9k
> in performance mods (over a stock EV conversion)
> and without the benefit of 60+ years of ICE racing and hotrod
> performance parts availability, clean their clocks with about half the
> dollar investment, using a technology that's in its infancy. And, for
> those who either aren't into or can't build-up their own machines, the
> only way to get Zombie type gas performance, is to spend at a minimum,
> $35,000 and buy a factory made new vehicle!!! That buys you gassers that
> do 12.9 to 13.4 or so, still nearly a full second slower than WZ. And
> let's not forget, none of these run as squeaky clean as an EV does, and
> all of them are still dependent on foreign oil.
>
> I had to laugh when you called my 1200 a 'purpose-built drag racer,
> stripped to a minimum of creature comforts, etc.' Let's look at this:
>
> Stock 1200s had no carpets...White Zombie has full carpets that I added.
> Stock 1200s never came with sunroofs...I added that, too. The car still
> has its original door panels, original headliner (a little more crispy
> than stock), original dash, original glass all around, original bumpers
> and body panels, functioning lights, wipers, horn, etc. If it were a
> purpose-built drag racer, it would have paper thin doors minus all
> braces, no interior, no bumpers, thin Lexan windows, a tubbed rear,
> etc., etc. It does have lighter seats. It doesn't have a radio, but
> neither did the stock 1200. The back seat is gone, but that was done to
> make room for batteries, the same as many stock conversions not set up
> for racing at all. You call that purpose-built stripped to a minimum?
>
> Compared to a stock 1200, my car should be called 'luxurious', what with
> its sunroof and full carpets :-) Compared to any 1200s that are still on
> the road, mine with its factory door panels in such great shape,
> non-cracked dash, clean carpets, and near pristine glass all around,
> doesn't look anything like a purpose-built stripped racer. When I hear
> comments like this, it gets my hackles up, because I've strived to do
> the opposite all these years. Our recent work at lightening the car has
> been focused on things like lighter, more cleverly done metal brackets,
> lighter battery compartments, and lighter drive train components. Note
> that we have not removed the carpets, nor the door panels, nor anything
> else that takes away from its stock demeanor. In fact, I'll probably be
> fixing up the interior more this summer, and plan for a new headliner,
> and who knows, maybe even some tunes.
>
> As to being that purpose built race car....the only reason I don't drive
> it a lot more than I do, is that my wife knows just how insanely quick
> it is, and she knows what I'm likely do behind the wheel. Now, with its
> 840 lbs. of new batteries on board (a little more than 1/3 total vehicle
> weight), I suspect this under-2400 lb. car could go 40-50 miles on a
> charge...hardly the kind of range a purpose-built racing EV normally gets.
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
> Hi EVerybody;
I read John's letter, above with envy. HE was able to capture a Datsun
1200 in it's prime, gussy it up into a kick ass dragster. And You could
still use it as a daily driver. It's ao beautifully CLEAN! Pristine, if you
will. All of ya that know John. Some of his grey hair came from me charging
into his garage, full tilt, in a E scooter and saying " No Brakes" Or "I
can't stop!"Had I dinged up the Zombie or Blue Meany, both lovingly parked
in his garage when I hit the scene.You would have scene a grown man cry, or
my ass kicked big time<g>!
Ah, for the long lost small cars of years ago. Sigh. Light, so simple to
work on. no rats nest of wires to figure out, after the ICE is pulled
out!Datsun 1200's in CT? Yeah, right!As common as Trabants and
Lada's!Although I used to see driving to New Haven in my Rabbit to the RR,
through the ghetto, a pristine Datsun 1200, sitting right there in the mean
streets of New Haven. It was NEVER there in the daylight. I shoulda shot it,
I mean with a camera<g>!Or risk getting shot, with automatic weapons, for
checking it out. But it went away, EVentually. Sigh! A nice break from the
Escalades and Surburbans around there.But it was there, had to be a southern
import as Datsuns, old ones here, just don't exist. Like Rabbits, they are
GONE from our roads. With all the salt and sand dumped on the roads at just
the HINT of snow. We haven't had over 4 inches ALL winter. OK with me!It's a
pain in the ass when ya get older. I DID fire up the snow thrower, season
opener. No it isn't electric, yet.For the price of 3 T 105's I was able to
buy a decent Toro one, which starts on the first pull!Well, second, maybe,
hafta prime it<g>!
I guess you could buy another Datsun 1200 in Or or CA? Train out and
DRIVE it home? Hey!? Youse Or an CA guyz could have an interesting sideline,
hunting down and buying decent doners for the least coast guyz to buy for
gliders?I mean ones that are clean, decent upholstery, NO rot, etc for we
can't EVen get PARTS here. I went through HELL finding non gunched
taillight assemblies last year for the Rabbit!
One of the fun things about visiting Portland is the " Rolling Antique
Auto Show";Watch traffic awile and you would see curiosities GONE from
eastern roads; Gremlins, Chevy Corvair vans, 1949 Chevy skool Bus campers.
VW beetles, of course! All daily drivers!Well, MAYBE not the Bus Camper?
And fixing todaze cars; I wacked a deer the other night in my Prius.
Swerved, but too late! He looked as big as a brontosaurus, from where I was
sitting! I hit him with the right side headlite assembly/fender. Lights
stayed on, just kept going. Looked at it in the AM, fenders shoved back
enough so ya couldn't open the pass door. Turn signals didn't work, on that
side. Got 3 guesstimates to get it fixed; anywhere from 1600 to 2600 bux! I
was lucky that I didn't T bone it! Woulda had some REAL damage!But the(what
EVer happened to 5mph bumpers?)Plastic crap bent broken. Ya need a new
bumper, fender and 250 plus plastic headlite assy.Sheesh! I fixed my Jetta
in a busy afternoon with junkyard parts, after whacking a deer with that,
too!It was an 82 with REAL bumpers and simple grill assembly.Oh it wasn't a
Waylandesque repair job, but it looked OK and I considered it a part of the
car's natural aging process.Like an Amtrak 50/50 paint job, looks good at 50
feet or 50 mph<g>! What drove me bonkers with the damn Jetta was the slow
deteriation of the electrical system, taillights stopped working, turn
signals, stop lights. Had a row of toggle switches to turn on vital systems,
like ignition, to drive the car. A cash offer of 400 bux at the local gas
station, I said " Follow me home, I'll, give ya the Title and it's YOURS!"No
extra charge for the toggle switches, a 5 min tuitorial, and yur good to go!
Last I knew kid was still driving it!
So much for the good old daze before Rabbits weighed 3000 lbs as a GAS
rig!
Seeya
Bob
>
--- End Message ---
