EV Digest 6886
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: How the Prius Works
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE:Cleaning batteries (was:acidity of battery terminal crud?)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
3) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: How the Prius Works
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE:Cleaning batteries (was:acidity of battery terminal crud?)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
6) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV achilles' heel
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV achilles' heel
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Solar tonneau cover
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE:Cleaning batteries (was:acidity of battery terminal crud?)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Teenager with EV's on the brain
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EV achilles' heel
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Teenager with EV's on the brain
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
16) Re: EV achilles' heel
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Solar tonneau cover
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Solar tonneau cover
by "Ev Performance (Robert Chew)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: What batteries to try next?
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
No, the CVT is a proper transmission and can carry the full HP of the
engine to the wheels.
There is only one electric motor/generator. Actually there's a second
motor for engine starting and providing countertorque for the CVT gears
but it's not a drive motor.
The motor/generator is only there to boost the peak engine power and
allow the engine to shut off when its high power is not needed and there
is sufficient battery power to meet the driver's demands.
Danny
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
I didn't say it was a series hybrid. I said it was essentially an
electric clutch. isn't it?
I don't think the prius arrangement could be cheaper than a series
layout. I would be interested in hearing the design justification but
doubt it would satisfy
Dan
Danny Miller skrev:
No, it has a mechanical CVT transmission in there. Gears and all.
The Prius is a parallel hybrid, if the wiring between a generator and
motor were the only link from engine to wheels then it'd be a series
hybrid.
It's interesting to note that the engineers spent an awful lot of
design time, expense and weight to make a CVT tranny rather than add
a separate motor from the generator so they can run at different
speeds. Either the losses are simply too high or the second motor is
more expensive than the tranny.
The earlier generations of Prius used an electric motor that could
not produce great acceleration or top speed without the engine. In
2003 the hatchback had a 50KW motor instead of the earlier 30KW and
33KW ones.
Danny
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
(-Phil-) wrote:
Just to clarify, the Prius doesn't have a separate CVT. The CVT
*is* the motor/generators!
By shuffling power between the 2 motor/gens you effectively have a
CVT. It's a totally ingenious system!
aside from the fact that the end result is an expensive ICE car and
not an EV. it's effectively an electric clutch. the design will not
survive and should never have been. if one was conspiratorially
inclined (and one is) one might be suspicious that they
intentionally chose a bad design because it could give the illusion
of being environmentally friendly while still remaining a pure ICE car.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Roland,
I mix a some baking soda in water, moisten a rag with it and wipe them down.
I have boxes too so I can't flush them.
I have those one piece Trojan caps and I wipe them down too (you mentioned that
in a post).
I almost changed them out but it seems they might control the acid spray a
little better.
But I don't really have a baseline for that and I wipe them down quite often,
so I really don't know..
I actually expected many more problems with acid build up then I have seen so
far (a year),.
But if you keep at them, I guess you don't see the problems.
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I have never clean my batteries with baking soda or any of that battery
> cleaner that leaves a white residue. I cannot hose off the batteries while
> they are in a enclosure.
>
> The battery enclosure has a air exchange system which brings in about 500
> CFM air by total enclose acid proof fans, that exhaust out the bottom
> through a HD 2 inch PVC pipe like a exhaust does.
>
> The air exchange keeps the water loss at a minimum and results in very
> little corrosion. Only have to water the batteries every four months when I
> do the balance charge.
>
> I use to use Whitaker clear battery cleaner and protection, but I cannot get
> it no longer. Someone mention that Windex with AMMONIA neutralize the acid
> and it does, so that's all I use now.
>
> What normally causes the corrosion on a battery terminal is the two
> different metals making contact, such as a cadmium plated battery connector
> or wire terminal with lead, copper or brass battery post.
>
> In our electrical work, where we have to connect two different alloys
> together, we use a bi-metal connector which prevents this corrosion. So I
> remove my cable terminals which were plated with a cadmium alloy from the
> lead post and install a gold plated battery clamp around the lead post and
> bolted the link to it, making it a bi-metal connection.
>
> If I was to make new links, I would crimp this type of battery clamp right
> on the links, but I happen to get these gold plate battery clamps for $1.75
> each from www.wirthco.com.
>
> I now have no corrosion at all. Only the top surfaces conductive at times
> when the batteries vent which I clean with the Windex-ammonia cleaner which
> I then wipe down with a paper towel.
>
> Roland
>
> > -------------- Original message ----------------------
> > From: "David S" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Use there is acid in that crud.
> > > You can apply coatings to that will prevent the crud build up.
> > > I think even Vaseline will do.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > > Behalf Of Jim Coate
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 4:16 PM
> > > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > > Subject: acidity of battery terminal crud?
> > >
> > > Quick question... what is the composition of the crud/corrosion that
> > > forms on the terminals of flooded lead acid batteries?
> > >
> > > In an ideal world, the terminals stay clean, but in the real world,
> > > sometimes the stuff grows... white/yellow/green/blue semi-solid powdery
> > > or gooey stuff.
> > >
> > > Is there acid in the crud? Or does whatever chemical process that
> > > produces it use up the acid?
> > >
> > > The practical reason for this is to know how carefully to remove, handle
> > > and dispose of the crud - will it eat holes in my jeans like the
> > > electrolyte?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jim Coate
> > > 1970's Elec-Trak's
> > > 1997 Solectria Force
> > > 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
> > > 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
> > > http://www.eeevee.com
> > >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where's the two By Fir!!??
Feeding trolls???
or doing a little tenderizing of thier hides???
I should post full shots of the insides of a PFC charger... and wait until
the questions come in....
Ot and I and for that fact Damon could dump a pile of all our parts on the
list with Schematics and in.... and most if not all on this list would have
real problems assembling them and getting stuff to work right.
It's not the parts... it's the assembly that is a real booger to convey on
making Power Electronics work right and hang together.
And yes...
Madman owns a Zilla 2K. It took 3 PFC30s to pry it off of Otmar's copper
dusted fingers.
> Bill Dube' (Yes, I own a Zilla.)
>
> >Bill Dube skrev:
> >>Otmar tells me anything I ask him, but I'm not trying to rip off
> >>his design and sell it as my own. :-)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
No, the CVT is a proper transmission and can carry the full HP of the
engine to the wheels.
There is only one electric motor/generator. Actually there's a second
motor for engine starting and providing countertorque for the CVT
think about it
it is the variable component deciding the grip from the motor to the
wheels..
no autographs please :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Great story!
Funny how those things stick with you.
This old guy actually had us drill a hole, grind away the sides of the broken
bolt and pick out the indivdual threads with a little pick. (That's when the
easy out didn't work).
Everybody should do that once.
He had a whole life of little tricks up his sleeve. The challenge was to coax
it out of him.
What is wild is that this old shop teacher was well aware of surplus aircraft
generators and electric cars in 1970.
Good luck with the project.
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> On the other hand :).
>
> I took auto shop class in high school, 1971. The teacher was a tough guy
> with a flat top buzz cut. I was a long hair. He didn't like me much,
> except that I always got A's and knew the answers. Heck, I'd already
> rebuilt my first 327.
>
> Anyway, me and a couple other guys were doing the obligatory engine rebuild.
> One guy was torquing down the main bearing caps. Another guy read him the
> torque specs from the book, for a motor with bigger bolts. Oops. At around
> 90 ft lbs, the bolt broke off in the block. The teacher heard the snap from
> 20 feet across the shop. He came over and started ragging on us for being
> stupid, time to get out the drill and easy outs, how tough it would be to
> get out a bolt broken at 90 ft lbs, etc.
>
> I remembered something my next door neighbor taught me. Once the head is
> broken off, the bolt isn't tight any more. I said "hold on a second" and
> looked down the hole. It was a nice, jagged break. I dropped in a flat
> blade screwdriver, turned out the remains of the bolt, and handed it to the
> teacher.
>
> He liked me even less after that :).
>
> Moral of the story, the shop teacher isn't always right :).
>
> Marty
>
> P.S. In my gas guzzler, I wash the gunk off with baking soda in water with
> an old tooth brush until the bubbling stops, then rinse. There aren't any
> batteries in my EV project yet.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dana Havranek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 8:00 PM
> Subject: RE:Cleaning batteries (was:acidity of battery terminal crud?)
>
>
> > Oh, I have a little story to tell.
> >
> > In high school, in vocational auto shop, I had an auto shop teacher that
> > was a mechanic and a Sea-Bee in World War II.
> > Rough guy. I guess you had to be with the guys we had in vocational auto
> > shop.
> > One day, after I slathered up the battery posts really good, he got right
> > in my face, yelling and spitting, waiving his arms and pointing his finger
> > up my nose,
> >
> > "Now just why and the heck would you spread grease all over those battery
> > posts? Huh?"
> > Everyone stopped and looked. My turn, I thought.
> > "Cause you're supposed to!" I said.
> > "Everyone does - everyone knows that!"
> >
> > "So all the gunk gets mixed up with all the grease and then you have a
> > mess, right?"
> > I said, "Er, well, but the grease stops that!"
> > "Ya, stops the baking soda, too."
> > He said, "Just clean the thing!"
> > "Nothing else!"
> > "No grape juice on it, either".
> > "You know it's just grape juice, right?"
> > "Ever heard of snake oil?"
> > "Huh?", I said.
> >
> > I think of him when I wipe down my 18 batteries.
> > No grease, no vicks vapo-rub, no SPF 30 suntan lotion, no grape juice
> > (purple stuff) - I just keep the batteries clean.
> >
> > Still, I have an uncontrollable urge to coat the terminals with something.
> > I'm sure it would help.
> > It's just that I can still hear the guy yelling 37 years later.
> >
> > Dana
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------- Original message ----------------------
> > From: "David S" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Use there is acid in that crud.
> >> You can apply coatings to that will prevent the crud build up.
> >> I think even Vaseline will do.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> >> Behalf Of Jim Coate
> >> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 4:16 PM
> >> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >> Subject: acidity of battery terminal crud?
> >>
> >> Quick question... what is the composition of the crud/corrosion that
> >> forms on the terminals of flooded lead acid batteries?
> >>
> >> In an ideal world, the terminals stay clean, but in the real world,
> >> sometimes the stuff grows... white/yellow/green/blue semi-solid powdery
> >> or gooey stuff.
> >>
> >> Is there acid in the crud? Or does whatever chemical process that
> >> produces it use up the acid?
> >>
> >> The practical reason for this is to know how carefully to remove, handle
> >> and dispose of the crud - will it eat holes in my jeans like the
> >> electrolyte?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jim Coate
> >> 1970's Elec-Trak's
> >> 1997 Solectria Force
> >> 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
> >> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
> >> http://www.eeevee.com
> >>
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
sounds good. let's see it. I'm sure the list would love to see the
innards and hear a bit about it. it doesn't matter that people can't
duplicate it from that. it's the inspiration. we see a lot on tv we
can't duplicate easily but we love to see it anyway and someday we might
say 'this product inspired me to do this'
greed is an illusion of a winning strategy
my precious
Rich Rudman wrote:
Where's the two By Fir!!??
Feeding trolls???
or doing a little tenderizing of thier hides???
I should post full shots of the insides of a PFC charger... and wait until
the questions come in....
Ot and I and for that fact Damon could dump a pile of all our parts on the
list with Schematics and in.... and most if not all on this list would have
real problems assembling them and getting stuff to work right.
It's not the parts... it's the assembly that is a real booger to convey on
making Power Electronics work right and hang together.
And yes...
Madman owns a Zilla 2K. It took 3 PFC30s to pry it off of Otmar's copper
dusted fingers.
Bill Dube' (Yes, I own a Zilla.)
Bill Dube skrev:
Otmar tells me anything I ask him, but I'm not trying to rip off
his design and sell it as my own. :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What I'm suprised no one picked up on, read Otmar's
blogs, even _Otmar_ has had trouble copying the Zilla!
And he designed the thing!
And people should pay attention to what Rich said
below: Rich or Otmar could hand out complete kits of
parts, bare PCBs, schematics, and 99% of the people on
this list won't be able to put it together without
blowing stuff up.
So I can see why Otmar won't hand out info to just
anyone who asks. Simply asking for a part number is
asking the wrong question, and shows a lack of
sufficient understanding. Answering questions like
that would be irresponsible. It would be like saying
"Here you go Don King, here's a hair dryer. Be
careful!"
- Steven Ciciora
--- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<snip>
> Ot and I and for that fact Damon could dump a pile
> of all our parts on the
> list with Schematics and in.... and most if not all
> on this list would have
> real problems assembling them and getting stuff to
> work right.
>
> It's not the parts... it's the assembly that is a
> real booger to convey on
> making Power Electronics work right and hang
> together.
<snip>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
actually my guess is that no cheap DIY BEV can have enough range to replace my gas minivan. I just want to replace most
of my town loop. say 50-75% of miles driven. When the college tuition throttles back, maybe we'll be able to buy a BEV
or fuel cell with much more range, but I suspect we'll still need a liquid-fuel car for a long time. The price and
weight of gensets increases with power ( of course) and there is some point on that curve where its too big. You just
have to decide where. The trailer idea doesn't interest me, except for electric bicycles maybe.
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
wouldnt you agree though that the few ekstra kilograms for a genset
capable of sustained driving is well worth it compared to limping?
there is a big difference having an 'EV' where you can drive any
distance comfortably
Dan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I've had my eye on that one for a while. That and a cruiser bike motor
> designed to maintain decent RPM for hours might be cool. On the other
> hand,
> I saw a cool Onan air cooled twin cylinder gasser motor home generator
> that
> looked promising, and all the RPM regulation issues would already be
> worked
> out. It should be a simple conversion to switch that to propane to make
> it
> run cleaner.
It's not "simple". Propane does not automatically run cleaner than
gasoline. It has to be tuned properly by someone who knows how to tune
it, then it has to be tested with the proper test equipment to ensure it's
running clean. If it's not done right it produces MORE pollution than
gasoline. By the time you get it right, it's no longer simple.
Even then, with the additional losses from the dual conversion, you'd
propably still get lower pollution by just driving a moden ICE, you'd
definitely get better mileage.
FWIW the cleanest burning motorcycle engine produces far more pollution
than the worst SUV. So if you goal is to move your EV with the lowest
pollution, motorcycle engines and ordinary generators are NOT the way to
go. The best engine would be one from a modern small car, perhaps a Geo
Metro or possibly one of the hybrids.
It may also be worth just picking up a backyard type backup
> generator and putting it on a trailer. I don't know what those weigh
> though.
>
> Marty
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 9:53 AM
> Subject: RE: EV achilles' heel
>
>
> If you wanted it for charging consider adding a power head from a
> generator. One can get a 10,000 watt power head from Harborfrieght for
> $299. Then use the car to push the EV on the road and when you get to
> where you are going you can use the engine to charge the batteries.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Marty Hewes
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 10:50
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
>
> I've considered a veggie oil diesel or a propane generator that could
> double as a backup for the house or shop during a power failure. But
> don't kid yourself, it takes a big generator to extend range
> significantly, and the setup is less efficient than driving a gas car.
> I'd consider it for things like getting the EV to a show or race instead
> of trailering, and I needed on-site recharging anyway. Otherwise I'd
> drive something else.
>
> Marty
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 9:22 AM
> Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
>
>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 10:07 AM
>> Subject: EV achilles' heel
>>
>>
>>>I think everyone can live with the cost of replacing lead acids once
> in a
>>>while, and the energy loss in them from common discharge and even
> assuming
>>>some heads would pop out of dark odorfilled areas and we would fix the
>
>>>electronics cost for conversions we still have the EVs current
> achilles'
>>>heel, the range.
>>>
>>> how many have tried using a small combustion engine for range
> extension
>>> in EVs? I imagine for instance a turbocharged 250cc motorcycle engine
> or
>>> even look into the possibility of using a tesla turbine because of
> its
>>> simplicity and potentially very compact size. (presumably run very
>>> smoothly too)
>>>
>>> anyone tried auxiliary combustion? I know JB Straubel did a trailer
> but
>>> that was a full size car motor as opposed to a small onboard one.
>>> is everyone driving pure EV?
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>>> Hi Dan;
>>
>> Some guys have used the front clip of a front wheel drive small
>> automatic car, setup like a trailer as a "pusher" setup. Tricky stuff
> here
>> is the controlling it from the EV cockpit. Ed Sharky out in CA did a
> very
>> neat VW Rabbit one as well as a clipped off VW Bug rear end. I guess
> any
>> reasonable small car can play, if yur handy setting it up like a
> trailer,
>> best as a FWD one, then you have all the emmissions crap in place, so
> you
>> are still a good clean citizen?
>>
>> Seeya
>>
>> Bob
>>>
>>> --
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database:
>>> 269.8.15/847 - Release Date: 6/12/2007 9:42 PM
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
thats a good idea. The boat store and RV store sell small panels designed to charge 12v batteries. Its not much current,
but they aren't expensive either. More of a statement I guess.
JF
Brandon Kruger wrote:
On a smaller scale, you could use a small 12V panel to charge an
accessory battery so you don't have to charge it separately or use a
DC/DC. Would this kind of system be effective?
Brandon Kruger
http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/
http://cafepress.com/altfuel
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Dana,
On one set of battery packs, the batteries came with a 3 gang cap. They
lasted me only one day. I was use to charging my prior 300 AH cobalt cells
with a on board charger rated for 100 amps, or a 200 amp out board charger
that came right of 3 phase 250 volts delta 25 kva transformers to a AC size
4 contactor that connected to a 900 amp 3-phase bridge that connected to the
EV with a large 3 inch diameter 6 wire cable, normally made for air craft
starting which was made by Power Anderson.
I happen to charge these batteries with the higher rate and most of the caps
push up, causing the whole top of the battery to become wet. I exchange
them for a locking type cap that has a O-ring, and never had that problem
charging them at 60 amps.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dana Havranek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 4:02 PM
Subject: RE:Cleaning batteries (was:acidity of battery terminal crud?)
> Hi Roland,
>
> I mix a some baking soda in water, moisten a rag with it and wipe them
> down.
> I have boxes too so I can't flush them.
> I have those one piece Trojan caps and I wipe them down too (you mentioned
> that in a post).
> I almost changed them out but it seems they might control the acid spray a
> little better.
> But I don't really have a baseline for that and I wipe them down quite
> often, so I really don't know..
>
> I actually expected many more problems with acid build up then I have seen
> so far (a year),.
> But if you keep at them, I guess you don't see the problems.
>
> Dana
>
>
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > I have never clean my batteries with baking soda or any of that battery
> > cleaner that leaves a white residue. I cannot hose off the batteries
> > while
> > they are in a enclosure.
> >
> > The battery enclosure has a air exchange system which brings in about
> > 500
> > CFM air by total enclose acid proof fans, that exhaust out the bottom
> > through a HD 2 inch PVC pipe like a exhaust does.
> >
> > The air exchange keeps the water loss at a minimum and results in very
> > little corrosion. Only have to water the batteries every four months
> > when I
> > do the balance charge.
> >
> > I use to use Whitaker clear battery cleaner and protection, but I cannot
> > get
> > it no longer. Someone mention that Windex with AMMONIA neutralize the
> > acid
> > and it does, so that's all I use now.
> >
> > What normally causes the corrosion on a battery terminal is the two
> > different metals making contact, such as a cadmium plated battery
> > connector
> > or wire terminal with lead, copper or brass battery post.
> >
> > In our electrical work, where we have to connect two different alloys
> > together, we use a bi-metal connector which prevents this corrosion. So
> > I
> > remove my cable terminals which were plated with a cadmium alloy from
> > the
> > lead post and install a gold plated battery clamp around the lead post
> > and
> > bolted the link to it, making it a bi-metal connection.
> >
> > If I was to make new links, I would crimp this type of battery clamp
> > right
> > on the links, but I happen to get these gold plate battery clamps for
> > $1.75
> > each from www.wirthco.com.
> >
> > I now have no corrosion at all. Only the top surfaces conductive at
> > times
> > when the batteries vent which I clean with the Windex-ammonia cleaner
> > which
> > I then wipe down with a paper towel.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> > > -------------- Original message ----------------------
> > > From: "David S" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Use there is acid in that crud.
> > > > You can apply coatings to that will prevent the crud build up.
> > > > I think even Vaseline will do.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > On
> > > > Behalf Of Jim Coate
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 4:16 PM
> > > > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > > > Subject: acidity of battery terminal crud?
> > > >
> > > > Quick question... what is the composition of the crud/corrosion that
> > > > forms on the terminals of flooded lead acid batteries?
> > > >
> > > > In an ideal world, the terminals stay clean, but in the real world,
> > > > sometimes the stuff grows... white/yellow/green/blue semi-solid
> > > > powdery
> > > > or gooey stuff.
> > > >
> > > > Is there acid in the crud? Or does whatever chemical process that
> > > > produces it use up the acid?
> > > >
> > > > The practical reason for this is to know how carefully to remove,
> > > > handle
> > > > and dispose of the crud - will it eat holes in my jeans like the
> > > > electrolyte?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Jim Coate
> > > > 1970's Elec-Trak's
> > > > 1997 Solectria Force
> > > > 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
> > > > 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
> > > > http://www.eeevee.com
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If its the right thing for you to do, it should not matter if others help or
want to help you.
The real truth is that following your dream should not hinge on whether people
will help you, or even care what you do.
Luckily Amy came to the right place where there are thousands of us with the
same dream. We can (and will) help if no-one else will.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> Yes, you have to want to succeed yourself too, but to go it alone is
> sort of stupid, in my mind.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> park. But to get to my parents place and back, if I started the generator
> when I left and reduced battery use the whole way, I could probably use a
> generator well less than 5kW and still make the trip (since it's charging
> while I'm parked there and stopped at lights).
This is true, and with the typical 5kw generator you'd only produce 200
times as much pollution as driving a Hummer for the same distance. If
you're comfortable with that, then go for it.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
funny :)
if telling me which small TO220 IGBT he uses would be irresponsible what
is digikey.com then? crimes against humanity?
it's a sociological phenomenon that one after another will make up
deeply irrational arguments in support of what their ego is needless
committed to
Dan
Steven Ciciora wrote:
What I'm suprised no one picked up on, read Otmar's
blogs, even _Otmar_ has had trouble copying the Zilla!
And he designed the thing!
And people should pay attention to what Rich said
below: Rich or Otmar could hand out complete kits of
parts, bare PCBs, schematics, and 99% of the people on
this list won't be able to put it together without
blowing stuff up.
So I can see why Otmar won't hand out info to just
anyone who asks. Simply asking for a part number is
asking the wrong question, and shows a lack of
sufficient understanding. Answering questions like
that would be irresponsible. It would be like saying
"Here you go Don King, here's a hair dryer. Be
careful!"
- Steven Ciciora
--- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<snip>
Ot and I and for that fact Damon could dump a pile
of all our parts on the
list with Schematics and in.... and most if not all
on this list would have
real problems assembling them and getting stuff to
work right.
It's not the parts... it's the assembly that is a
real booger to convey on
making Power Electronics work right and hang
together.
<snip>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Amy,
If you have a custom car / hot rod restoration shop on board, seems to me you
have a major piece of the puzzle.
A very major piece.
Try to get someone or some business to sponsor you and your team.
Talk to the suppliers and fabricators used in the business.
Check out the alternator rebuilding shops and any electric motor rebuilders.
They might support you with cable, lugs, materials and who knows what.
You never know when you might run across a person who happens to be interested
in the same thing but is too busy with the business. If you are really
interested in it and have done your homework, you will be credible. They will
know right away.
Good luck!
Dana
(old guy, BTW)
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Amy DeMaagd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Okay, I've been interested in alternative fuel vehicles for some time
> now, and would like to finally commit to building an EV. Despite being
> 17 and a girl, I am not a total moron. I grew up in a radical custom
> car/hot rod restoration shop, and I do have the business on board, so
> this is a thoroughly achievable goal, theoretically . Seeing as how I
> lack funding, I figured that there were three possible paths to take:
> meth lab, prostitution, or a school team. Now, I realize that the
> school team suggestion sounds absurd, but it's not about getting money
> from the school, it's about getting credibility from being backed by a
> community organization, so that people will believe they are
> sponsoring something, rather than just giving things to some hack
> group of teenagers. Anyways, I need to pitch this idea to my school,
> and was wondering if any of you had any resources for that, existing
> proposals, etc.
>
> Also, seeing as how the Tour De Sol is now defunct, and the EV
> Challenge folks seem to have considerately dropped off the face of the
> planet(I guess I shouldn't have expected much from them anyways, I am
> from Michigan, which is decidedly north of south.), are there any EV
> competitions around? The school would want to have more than an EV
> putting around town, they'd want some people to see it, they'd want
> some prestige. After all, the majority of the population of this town
> does happen to be cows, and I don't think they'd be too impressed,
> considering that they do some significant air pollution of their own.
>
> Without even having official backing from the school, we've managed to
> get a free MG Midget from an auto auction place, plus a 3 phase AC
> motor, and lithium ion batteries(scary, but exciting).
> Ahem, I do expect to need plenty of help in the future.
>
> I hope I'm not too obnoxious, and really look forward to getting some input.
> Thank you!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As I recall, I already specified propane. I believe it burns pretty
cleanly, maybe cleaner than a coal fired electric plant, although not Bio
neutral, but either is coal. I'm not talking the average Briggs and Stratton
with a stone age $5 carb runningthe middle easts finest.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
park. But to get to my parents place and back, if I started the generator
when I left and reduced battery use the whole way, I could probably use a
generator well less than 5kW and still make the trip (since it's charging
while I'm parked there and stopped at lights).
This is true, and with the typical 5kw generator you'd only produce 200
times as much pollution as driving a Hummer for the same distance. If
you're comfortable with that, then go for it.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You could probably use a modified Rudman PFC charger in boost mode
I'm pretty sure that will charge a 144V pack froma 60V source, and do it
at fairly high efficiency. The only issue would be to control it based on
input voltage as well as pack voltage.
You could try talking to Rich. I'm sure he could figure it out easily
enough.
> I've been working on exactly that idea.... The cover of my truck is
> 75" x 64" -- and a standard solar panel tends to be about 64" x 32"
> long currently. So two of them would fit pretty nicely. About 350 to
> 360 watts total. Figure that they are only actually producing 75% of
> that in full sun (because the sun isn't directly overhead, you've got
> some dust on them, and they are hot). So you can get maybe 300 watts
> -- for each hour of sun, another mile of driving. Not alot, but not
> insignificant either -- if it was always parked in the sun, you might
> get about 3 or 4 miles a day out of it.
>
> Now, here we get to the problem -- standard panels are "24 volts" --
> which actually means a working voltage around 30 volts (what you need
> to reliably charge a "24 volt" battery bank). Two of them is only 60
> volts. No go. If we are looking at a 120 or 144 volt battery pack,
> we need either least 5 or 6 of these "24 volt" panels to charge it
> directly. We can do it with smaller panels -- a 20 watt "12 volt"
> panel is 21.3" x 17.7" I can fit 12 of these panels on the toneau
> cover. Perfect for a 144 volt battery system. Though the total power
> is now only 240 watts instead of 360 -- power density of smaller
> panels is less because of more edge area. Now -- for charge control
> I could either ignore it (since I am only producing 1.2 amps in full
> sun), or put a separate little 12 volt charge controller for each
> panel (a mini BMS of sorts)
>
> The cost of the 12 little panels is $2,340. Plus another $396 for all
> the little charge controllers.
>
> IF we could do it with the two large panels, the cost for panels is
> more like $1700 -- for 50% more power. Small panels are higher cost
> per watt in addition to lower watts per square foot.
>
> I can get higher voltage large panels if I go with Sanyo ones -- those
> are around 55 volts working voltage -- three of them could charge a
> 120 volt battery pack at 195 watts each (585 watts total). And the
> total cost would about $3100 for the panels. However, these panels
> are 36" x 52" -- not a dimension that easily fits three of them on a
> truck bed.
>
> What we need is to feed the lower voltage system of panels into some
> sort of voltage booster to allow it to charge a higher voltage battery
> -- ah, but no one makes one of those. We can boost it to 120vac, then
> back through a regular charger, but there are some serious control
> issues with this. The regular charger wants to charge at maximum rate
> -- and now it's got a very limited AC source -- that also varies
> depending on exactly how much sun is on the panels. If it draws too
> much, the AC voltage will drop out and the whole thing shuts off.
> And, the inverter expects a nice uniform voltage from a battery --
> otherwise if the input voltage exceeds 15 volts, it starts blowing
> FETs. Ooops. I guess you could attach it to the auxilliary battery
> (converters to hook a 48 volt solar array to a 12 volt battery are
> easily available, though about $600), then have that charge the main
> battery through a 2000 watt inverter, with a control relay set on a 13
> volt to 15 volt hysteresis or something. But that's insanely
> complicated, and you'd likely loose at least 40% of the power doing
> it.
>
> You can get boost converters to step 24 volts up to 48 volts -- so if
> you could get to half of the required charging voltage, you could use
> a bunch of those for segments of the battery bank perhaps?
>
> If solar charging is what you want, it's way cheaper and more
> effective to just put them on your house -- plus in alot of places,
> you can then get the utility company to pay for half the cost. But if
> you want charging right on the car no matter where you park it, it's a
> fun idea.
>
> Z
>
> On 6/13/07, Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I know this will not increase range dramatically but I was wondering
>> if you were to put a solar array on the tonneau cover of your truck
>> how would you charge the pack? Would you make it the same voltage as
>> the pack and then just hook it to each end of the string so it was
>> feeding current to the battery or if you were driving to the motor?
>> Or would you need to plug it into a charger?
>>
>> Tehben
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
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* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Lee. I can recommend power-sonic's for your application. They are like
the concorde's you used. Not high rate, but longish life, rectangular,
available in a lot of sizes, and they have built in handles.
I got good tech support from them, and I have tested them on a 500A draw (with
a carbon pile tester - the zilla is set at 375A max limit right now), and the
voltage stays relatively stiff (nothing like optimas, of course, but enough for
how you have said you drive your EV.
I have three spares - if you want I can ship you one to test to see if you
would like it, Let me know offlist and I'll give you my phone number. I would
like to get some relief on the shipping cost, though.
I got the 100 Ahr ones for $135 each. Had to pay about $100 for home delivery,
but that is definitely worth it.
David Brandt
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EV list <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 4:04:42 PM
Subject: What batteries to try next?
Well, my almost 10-year-old pack of 12v 95ah Concorde AGMs is ready for
retirement. Out of the original 12, only 9 are left. I just lost #10 to
an internal open). The low remaining pack voltage, coupled with the
remaining battery's already low amphour capacity, gives me too little
range to bother with them any more.
So... I'm wondering what kind of batteries to try next. More Concordes
at $340 each? Optima D31's at $270 or so each? Go back to flooded (even
they are around $160 each)? Maybe a cheap set of Sam's Club specials for
$60 each (they won't last long, but the price is low).
Many switch to an "exotic" battery? Thundersky lithiums (but where to
get good ones)? Nicads? Nimh?
I'm open to suggestions! :-)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That same sociological phenomenon will drive one to dig for the most worthless
of details, even though the person actually knows there is absolutely no
benefit to having that piece of information. I do it all the time, in fact if
I can't find a spec or piece of info I'll stay up all night Googling trying to
find it, knowing that it will never benefit me or that I might just forget it
anyway. The need to KNOW is is strong with us humans, almost as strong as the
need to DO. Eventually the craving for the info wears off as the imperative To
DO tasks becomes more evident.
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 2:57 pm
Subject: Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> funny :)
> if telling me which small TO220 IGBT he uses would be irresponsible
> what
> is digikey.com then? crimes against humanity?
>
> it's a sociological phenomenon that one after another will make up
> deeply irrational arguments in support of what their ego is
> needless
> committed to
>
> Dan
>
>
> Steven Ciciora wrote:
> > What I'm suprised no one picked up on, read Otmar's
> > blogs, even _Otmar_ has had trouble copying the Zilla!
> > And he designed the thing!
> >
> > And people should pay attention to what Rich said
> > below: Rich or Otmar could hand out complete kits of
> > parts, bare PCBs, schematics, and 99% of the people on
> > this list won't be able to put it together without
> > blowing stuff up.
> >
> > So I can see why Otmar won't hand out info to just
> > anyone who asks. Simply asking for a part number is
> > asking the wrong question, and shows a lack of
> > sufficient understanding. Answering questions like
> > that would be irresponsible. It would be like saying
> > "Here you go Don King, here's a hair dryer. Be
> > careful!"
> >
> > - Steven Ciciora
> >
> > --- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > <snip>
> >
> >> Ot and I and for that fact Damon could dump a pile
> >> of all our parts on the
> >> list with Schematics and in.... and most if not all
> >> on this list would have
> >> real problems assembling them and getting stuff to
> >> work right.
> >>
> >> It's not the parts... it's the assembly that is a
> >> real booger to convey on
> >> making Power Electronics work right and hang
> >> together.
> >>
> > <snip>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________________________>
> Be a PS3 game guru.
> > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at
> Yahoo! Games.
> > http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
