EV Digest 6895
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: How the Prius Works
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: EV achilles' heel
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: How the Prius Works
by "TrotFox Greyfoot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) ThunderSky
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Aircraft Starter generator
by "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: How the Prius Works
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: lion testing
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Aircraft Starter generator
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: full size truck conversion
by "J.J. Hayden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: How the Prius Works
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: How the Prius Works
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: full size truck conversion
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Toyota nixes lithium-ion battery for next generation Prius, f
or now.
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) EV CVT (Was: How the Prius Works)
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: EV CVT (Was: How the Prius Works)
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: EV CVT (Was: How the Prius Works)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Anyone heard of these Li-Ion batteries - or using them?
by "Sean Korb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Wheelchair stability (was Toyota makes an EV)
by "Alan Brinkman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Voltage Across Contacts
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Sorry to Dan and the list
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: EV achilles' heel
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Except that there is no 'brake' It is actually MG1 using it's own torque. You
could probably call
it an electromagnetic brake. :) And the 'brake releasing' as you put it is
really MG1 just
spinning a little slower (or is it faster?) in order to start the ICE.
And the ICE can also spin faster (kind of like an automatic transmission's
torque converter,
allowing more power at higher RPMs) as it sends the excess power to MG1 which
acts as a generator
(much like a serial-hybrid) which is then fed to MG2 as only the ~78% torque
from the ICE goes
straight on through the planetary carrier to the ring gear (MG2) and thus to
the wheels.
Chet
--- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That website is AWESOME! That is EXACTLY what I was looking for. Now I
> totally understand how it does it. I didn't even think about a shaft
> rotating within another shaft for the MG1 engine combo. Smart. So
> basically there has to be some kind of brake on the sun gear while the
> MG2 is powering the car. Then the MG2 is driving the car and MG1 is
> free to suck off some of the spinning to power accessories. When the
> system runs low on power, the brake releases, starts the engine, and now
> power is coming from the engine with assist from MG2 in the 78% engine
> 22% MG2 split as mentioned in the ecrostech article.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Huh?
If you want to prove a point then at least be clear what you
are referring to, as I mentioned a whole list of possible
solutions with associated drawbacks and even mentioned a
common perception problem, so which of those do you think
is "wrong"? And what is it that I should buy?
I am afraid that you do not know me well enough to make
any judgement, unless you do not care about truth.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 5:54 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
wrong
I don't care to reiterate the obvious for the blind. maybe you'll realize
the truth when you buy one. you'll probably hve forgotten though, maybe even
think it was your idea to begin with
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Hi Dan,
>
> It depends on the situation people are in:
> some have never a need to go more than a few miles, so the EV is their
> only car and does not need range extension.
>
> Some have an occasional need and know that renting a car will be the
> most efficient way for their transportation need and they do not need
> to bother with an unused ICE car during the time in between.
>
> Many others have more than one car, so before each trip they think for
> half a second which car is appropriate.
>
> Very few people use range extension.
> Most times it is a total disappointment, a kludge that takes away from
> the simple and clean EV idea.
> In addition, even thinking about making a genset or something
> comparable get good emissions is a royal pain.
>
> There is very little point if you are interested in saving the
> environment to have an EV that needs its genset a small percentage of
> the time but spews out many times more crud, defeating the whole
> purpose.
>
> I did not even address reliability, NOISE, and other issues.
>
> Not everyone is thinking about it from this perspective and sometimes
> habit and comfort are stronger than dedication as can be witnessed
> when someone needs to mow his lawn.
> Most lawnmowers belch out more during one hour of mowing than the
> modern car does during an entire week of driving (not including CO2).
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 7:07 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: EV achilles' heel
>
> I think everyone can live with the cost of replacing lead acids once
> in a while, and the energy loss in them from common discharge and even
> assuming some heads would pop out of dark odorfilled areas and we
> would fix the electronics cost for conversions we still have the EVs
current achilles'
> heel, the range.
>
> how many have tried using a small combustion engine for range
> extension in EVs? I imagine for instance a turbocharged 250cc
> motorcycle engine or even look into the possibility of using a tesla
> turbine because of its simplicity and potentially very compact size.
> (presumably run very smoothly too)
>
> anyone tried auxiliary combustion? I know JB Straubel did a trailer
> but that was a full size car motor as opposed to a small onboard one.
> is everyone driving pure EV?
>
> Dan
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, no there doesn't. the electric motors are capable of
operating in such a manner that the engine doesn't turn even though
the wheels do. MG1 is not directly connected to the engine as it
appears to be. It is in fact only directly connected to the torque
split device. This page explains it fully:
http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-transmission
That cutaway seems to not match what I originally saw when I first
researched the Prius. Also, the way that diagram represents the
system there might as well be no power split device. I think there
might be a bit of optical illusion going on as to how those parts all
interconnect. The clutch-like object looks to be just the engine's
flywheel and interconnecting parts.
Trot, the technical, fox...
On 6/14/07, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
There has to be a clutch in there somewhere. Otherwise there would be
constant pressure on the engine to turn over. Looking at the picture it
looks like there is some sort of clutch attached between the PSD shaft
and the engine. That would make sense if it was that way. Then the
engine PSD shaft could turn freely and when the system wants to start
the engine all it has to do is engage the clutch for a second or two and
disengage again. Then when it is ready to take the power to move the
vehicle it can engage again and start to develop torque to move the car.
It is my understanding that the engine will never be on when the car is
at a stop. That is why the car failed the georgia emissions test.
--
| /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember,
| ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a
| >\_/< [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:45 AM 6/14/2007, jukka wrote:
I'm referring to the fact that the TS has kept its name but the
ownerships and resources are quite different from the screwups.
And since they never handled their previous sales problems, they are
stuck with them until they do.
It's called reputation. It's easy to wreck, and difficult to repair.
How about if you then send me the complete list of broken cells ? I know
Victor and Lee got some. Who else ?
You also know that I received some.
Qty 52 of the Supposedly 90AH cells. (Very supposedly)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Phelps,
Didn't your daddy teach you to take a joke? Whether you know it or not, Jim
is your friend. Take a deep breath. You're getting it now...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: Aircraft Starter generator
Hey dick did not your mother tell you not to play with strangers and not
to
piss people off you don't know..
.. Looks like you need spell check to ..
If it is that important to you.. I would also guess you don't know
anything
about the question anyway.. Did it make you feel better to rip my spelling
.
Is that what it takes to make you feel good .. the fine English
.language..
-------Original Message-------
From: Jim Husted
Date: 06/13/07 21:42:03
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Aircraft Starter generator
--- Phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I see I had a typo.. 400 Amos 30 volts
^
Hey Phelps, looks like two in a row, Getting excited
Are you, hehehe. No time for email checks, got to go
Work on the convertion, LMAO. Sorry couldn't resist
8^)
How big is this motor? If you want, take some pics
And send them over to me, and I'll have a look.
Matter of fact have someone else take the pics cause
You'll be all excited and jittery and they'll come out
Blurry 8^P Pics of the brushes and commutator will be
Helpful.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
_____________________________________________________________________________
______
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
Visit
the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There has to be a clutch in there somewhere. Otherwise there would be
> constant pressure on the engine to turn over. Looking at the picture it
> looks like there is some sort of clutch attached between the PSD shaft
> and the engine. That would make sense if it was that way. Then the
> engine PSD shaft could turn freely ...
The planetary gears are capable of spinning independantly of the carrier (in
place, so to speak),
therefore, as the ring gear (MG2) drives the vehicle forward, the planetary
carrier stays in place
as the sun gear rotates backwards with the planetary gears spinning in between.
http://eahart.com/prius/psd/
> and when the system wants to start
> the engine all it has to do is engage the clutch for a second or two and
> disengage again. Then when it is ready to take the power to move the
> vehicle it can engage again and start to develop torque to move the car.
> It is my understanding that the engine will never be on when the car is
> at a stop. That is why the car failed the georgia emissions test.
But the engine can spin freely with the vehicle stopped as the planetary gears
then transfer the
power to the sun gear (MG1) and acts as a generator to recharge the batteries.
It does this every
start up sequence to warm up the system. In fact, if you take off immediately
while the engine is
running is doesn't even provide any power while it is warming up for about a
minute. All power
comes from MG2.
HTH,
Chet
____________________________________________________________________________________
Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's
Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:43 AM 6/14/2007, jukka wrote:
But... do I have to assume that nothing should be done anymore
? The case is cold already ? Tell me I'm wrong.
No, I'd become happy if they just replaced the garbage they sent
me. I'd take down the webpage, and even give you the domain.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't spell check either!
When you type on a two inch phone keyboard I am simply happy to get out
a reasonable semblance of a language!
On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 9:37 pm, Jim Husted wrote:
Wow is it a full moon?
Actually I was just trying to have a little fun and
was actually offering my help sizing your motor to see
whether you'll burn it up or not!
Honestly at this point I don't much care any more 8^)
As you noted I don't spell check and don't much care
either. You sir made it person I did not.
Best of luck
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- Phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hey dick did not your mother tell you not to play
with strangers and not to
piss people off you don't know..
.. Looks like you need spell check to ..
If it is that important to you.. I would also guess
you don't know anything
about the question anyway.. Did it make you feel
better to rip my spelling .
Is that what it takes to make you feel good .. the
fine English .language..
-------Original Message-------
From: Jim Husted
Date: 06/13/07 21:42:03
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Aircraft Starter generator
--- Phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I see I had a typo.. 400 Amos 30 volts
^
Hey Phelps, looks like two in a row, Getting excited
Are you, hehehe. No time for email checks, got to go
Work on the convertion, LMAO. Sorry couldn't resist
8^)
How big is this motor? If you want, take some pics
And send them over to me, and I'll have a look.
Matter of fact have someone else take the pics cause
You'll be all excited and jittery and they'll come
out
Blurry 8^P Pics of the brushes and commutator will
be
Helpful.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
_____________________________________________________________________________
______
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in
alternative vehicles. Visit
the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
____________________________________________________________________________________
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stuart, Peter and the group,
Given the weight problem of batteries as the sole source of power for a pickup
truck, what about a diesel-electric generator + batteries as a power source?
(Basically a diesel hybrid) I know that Toyota/Hino have been operating light
trucks in Japan with this power train starting in 2001. All I get is a stone
wall when I ask Toyota/Hino about them.
My real question is:
Would a diesel-electric hybrid truck along the lines of a 1/2 or 3/4 ton pickup
be feasible as a tow vehicle for a travel trailer?
J.J. Hayden
Long time lurker
J.J. Hayden
http://home.earthlink.net/~jjhayden
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I get it now. If the car is running off MG2, then the ring gear is
spinning, the planet gears are stopped (engine off) and MG2 is spinning
from the drive of the gears of the planets. If MG1 was to slow down for
any reason then power would be transmitted from the ring gear to the
planet gears, turning over the engine. Since the engine is an atkinson
cycle engine, not much torque would be needed to get it started. The
computer basically has to decide how much power is needed to drive the
wheels of the car, how much MG2 is providing, and how slow to run MG1 to
get the ICE to deliver the rest. Pretty smart!
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of TrotFox Greyfoot
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 13:02
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
Actually, no there doesn't. the electric motors are capable of
operating in such a manner that the engine doesn't turn even though the
wheels do. MG1 is not directly connected to the engine as it appears to
be. It is in fact only directly connected to the torque split device.
This page explains it fully:
http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-transmission
That cutaway seems to not match what I originally saw when I first
researched the Prius. Also, the way that diagram represents the system
there might as well be no power split device. I think there might be a
bit of optical illusion going on as to how those parts all interconnect.
The clutch-like object looks to be just the engine's flywheel and
interconnecting parts.
Trot, the technical, fox...
On 6/14/07, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There has to be a clutch in there somewhere. Otherwise there would be
> constant pressure on the engine to turn over. Looking at the picture
> it looks like there is some sort of clutch attached between the PSD
> shaft and the engine. That would make sense if it was that way. Then
> the engine PSD shaft could turn freely and when the system wants to
> start the engine all it has to do is engage the clutch for a second or
> two and disengage again. Then when it is ready to take the power to
> move the vehicle it can engage again and start to develop torque to
move the car.
> It is my understanding that the engine will never be on when the car
> is at a stop. That is why the car failed the georgia emissions test.
--
| /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember,
| ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a
| >\_/< [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, let me spell it out:
N-o- -C-l-u-t-c-h.
I gave the example of the differential, because this exactly
illustrates what is happening, you can see it for yourself
when you jack up both sides of a car's driven axle and make
the mental picture that the right wheel is in fact the
electric motor and the left wheel is the output shaft of the
Prius transaxle which goes to the real diff to drive the
two front wheels, but the RPM of this is exacly related to
the road speed.
Now turn the right side wheel (electric motor) without
starting the engine..... the left wheel (road speed) is
moving and in opposite direction as the "motor", so the
Prius can move without the engine turning.
Now start the engine and see how fast the wheels spin -
when you spin the right side wheel twice as fast, the left
wheel (road speed) is at a complete stop, so you can be at
a total stop with the Prius while the engine is running,
by making the electric motor spin fast.
But do not believe me - simply research the subject on
one of the many sites detailing the genius Prius transaxle
and you will see for yourself.
You will also find that the Prius does not have a reverse gear
so the engine cannot move the Prius backwards.
Now look at the example again: spin the right side wheel fast
forward and the left side wheel will rotate backwards, even
with the engine running. That is how the Prius moves backwards,
on its electric motor.
No clutch and only one 'gear' which is always engaged.
If some one is visually oriented, then there are nice
graphics and pictures to illustrate this.
One of the first to detail the Prius workings was john1701a.com
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 9:45 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: How the Prius Works
There has to be a clutch in there somewhere. Otherwise there would be
constant pressure on the engine to turn over. Looking at the picture it
looks like there is some sort of clutch attached between the PSD shaft and
the engine. That would make sense if it was that way. Then the engine PSD
shaft could turn freely and when the system wants to start the engine all it
has to do is engage the clutch for a second or two and disengage again.
Then when it is ready to take the power to move the vehicle it can engage
again and start to develop torque to move the car.
It is my understanding that the engine will never be on when the car is at a
stop. That is why the car failed the georgia emissions test.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 12:36
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: How the Prius Works
Generally a clutch is understood to be some kind of friction coupling to
make or break the link between engine and wheels.
In the Prius the engine is always connected to the wheels via the torque
split device. Still the engine can run while the car is at standstill and
the car can move while the engine is at 0 RPM, because the torque split
device resembles a differential, with the wheels at one output and a motor/
generator at the other output.
By spinning the motor at the proper speed, the wheels can be standstill
while the engine runs.
Spinning it in reverse direction, the engine can be standstill while the
wheels are turning.
Really genius.
Certainly not a clutch, as there are only sprockets and a chain between
engine, motors and wheels.
Hope this clarifies.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 6:16 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
I know the prius system is not about mechanical friction slip. try to
generalize the concept of a clutch beyond specific products and realize I am
right to include a magnetic clutch or even one based on control of a diff...
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Wait you Mush heads ..
>
> The Yota Torque split device...
>
> is basicly a Differential that has a Engine and two motors to divide
> the torque and the electrical power up in any way needed.
> All the variable math is done with the BLDC vector drive motors.
>
> NO clutches... no sliping of anything mechanical.
>
> Take a open differential... lock one wheel.. the other goes 2x the
> speed it was going.. let the locked wheel spin.. at what ever speed
> you
want it to..
> taking or adding torque via a 4 quadrant motor.. Add back in the
> negative torque to the output shaft... and you can have just about any
> ratio you need to move the car attached to the last wheel... You get
mechanical torque..
> and added power from the Batteries..and the Amp path from the
alternator.
>
> It looks aLOT like a planetary Automatic transmission. With motors
> attached to the output shaft and the planetary cluster.
>
> Cool stuff and about 1/2 as complicated as I used to think.
>
> Madman
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 7:27 PM
> Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
>
>
>
>> so you can't generalize. no biggie.
>> I think it's a bad design because it's a complicated way to make a
>> gas car look like an EV
>>
>> TrotFox Greyfoot wrote:
>>
>>> Um dude. It's not a clutch. A clutch is a friction based mechanical
>>> disconnect. The Prius has an electronic torque converter if you
>>> want to call it anything other than a CVT.
>>>
>>> BTW, it's a CVT. I'd actually like to know why you think it's a bad
>>> design but seeing as it's in an ICE car, please tell me offline.
>>>
>>> I seriously doubt you're going to be asked for any autographs. Just
>>> my hunch though...
>>>
>>> Trot, the fairly-technical, fox...
>>>
>>> On 6/13/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Danny Miller wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> No, the CVT is a proper transmission and can carry the full HP of
>>>>> the engine to the wheels.
>>>>> There is only one electric motor/generator. Actually there's a
>>>>>
> second
>
>>>>> motor for engine starting and providing countertorque for the CVT
>>>>>
>>>> think about it
>>>> it is the variable component deciding the grip from the motor to
>>>> the wheels..
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> no autographs please :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
JJ,
I think what you should look for is the Netgain Hybrid system. They
make a special 8" ADC motor, controller, and wiring to connect their
system between the transmission and the rear differential to provide
electric assist when the engine needs it. Supposedly this system
improves mileage by 3 or 4 mpg. Couple that with a diesel that already
gets close to 30 and you might have something really good.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of J.J. Hayden
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 13:13
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: full size truck conversion
Stuart, Peter and the group,
Given the weight problem of batteries as the sole source of power for a
pickup truck, what about a diesel-electric generator + batteries as a
power source? (Basically a diesel hybrid) I know that Toyota/Hino have
been operating light trucks in Japan with this power train starting in
2001. All I get is a stone wall when I ask Toyota/Hino about them.
My real question is:
Would a diesel-electric hybrid truck along the lines of a 1/2 or 3/4 ton
pickup be feasible as a tow vehicle for a travel trailer?
J.J. Hayden
Long time lurker
J.J. Hayden
http://home.earthlink.net/~jjhayden
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Maybe theoretically the Prius' pack capacity is
sufficient to make a Prius move that distance at
the power level required to keep a Prius moving at
lowish speeds, but Toyota designed the Prius to
protect the valuable NiMH battery pack by using
less than half its capacity, the highest and
lowest SOC that you possibly can reach is something
like 80% and 45%.
In addition the Prius drive system also limits the
voltage (drop) that you can subject the battery to,
which means that as you go, the controller is
throttled back lower and lower to keep the battery
output voltage above the threshold - this means that
it is very hard to reach the 45% level in EV mode
as the car has a useless amount of drive power in
electric mode (creeping forward) towards the lower
SOC levels.
In practice I find that with very careful driving
and flat or just a tad downward sloped streets,
I can go a maximum of 3 miles in electric mode
before the engine comes on to recharge the battery.
Theoretical capacity of the NiMH battery:
273V x 6.5Ah = 1.8 kWh
Energy use to move the Prius is estimated as about 200Wh/mi
when driving at constant, low speed.
Since Prius is using slightly more than 1/3 of the 1.8kW
the 0.7kW or so would yield about 3.5 miles at 200Wh/mi
so my experimental 3 miles max EV mode seems to match well.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 9:02 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Toyota nixes lithium-ion battery for next generation Prius, for
now.
Maybe it turned out to be not as reliable? Or maybe cost too much to
implement at this time? I wonder how much increased range the Prius would
get at full electric mode on Lithium Ion. I think the present Prius can go
11 miles on electric only.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 11:43
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Toyota nixes lithium-ion battery for next generation Prius, for
now.
There is an article in today's Wall Street Journal stating that Toyota has
decided not to use a lithium-ion battery in its next generation Prius whose
launch was scheduled for the fall of 2008. Instead they say they will use a
more advanced version of the nickel metal hydride battery presently in use.
The lithium-ion battery technology they refer to uses lithium cobalt oxide,
not the same as the lithium battery produced by A123. There is mention that
Toyota has not given up on lithium-ion technology. There is mention that
they have been testing a Prius equipped with lithium-ion technology that
they still consider experimental, presumably the more advanced lithium iron
phosphate chemistry similar too or perhaps provided by A123.
Lawson Huntley
************************************** See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.
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Trying to get back on topic, couldn't a similar design be used to create a CVT
for EV's? Something
that would allow for torque multiplication at low speeds and yet low RPMs for
high speeds.
It would need 2 motors connected to probably sun and planetary carrier? Could
also work kind of
like the series/parallel switching. And the controller would have to be more
complicated. Would
any of the motors need to also run backwards?
Just trying to stimulate some thought. ( I don't want to burn my neurons on
this one alone :-)
Chet
____________________________________________________________________________________
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel
and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
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Maybe steal a planetary gear set from an automatic transmission and put
it in a box and try it out?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chet Fields
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 13:36
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: EV CVT (Was: How the Prius Works)
Trying to get back on topic, couldn't a similar design be used to create
a CVT for EV's? Something that would allow for torque multiplication at
low speeds and yet low RPMs for high speeds.
It would need 2 motors connected to probably sun and planetary carrier?
Could also work kind of like the series/parallel switching. And the
controller would have to be more complicated. Would any of the motors
need to also run backwards?
Just trying to stimulate some thought. ( I don't want to burn my neurons
on this one alone :-)
Chet
________________________________________________________________________
____________
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user
panel and lay it on us.
http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I proposed that last year, it did not get a lot of followers yet...
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chet Fields
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 10:36 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: EV CVT (Was: How the Prius Works)
Trying to get back on topic, couldn't a similar design be used to create a
CVT for EV's? Something that would allow for torque multiplication at low
speeds and yet low RPMs for high speeds.
It would need 2 motors connected to probably sun and planetary carrier?
Could also work kind of like the series/parallel switching. And the
controller would have to be more complicated. Would any of the motors need
to also run backwards?
Just trying to stimulate some thought. ( I don't want to burn my neurons on
this one alone :-)
Chet
____________________________________________________________________________
________
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel
and lay it on us.
http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
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* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
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You mean like this one Dan?
http://www.peakoilstore.com/forum/index.php/topic,435.0.html
Everyone should check that one out. That's the type of forum Dan is
talking about. They loved him over there.
But Dan, thanks for the suggestion but we'll stick with what we have
here.
Chip
At 06:55 AM 6/14/2007, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
stating the obvious, this should be a webbased forum an someone set
that up?
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Joe,
Yes, if an electric wheel chair, especially the "mobility" type that
have four small rubberized or air filled wheels could have the wheel
base and track width increased, and the seat lowered for sidewalk
cruising, and the reverse happen for indoors movement, you would see
less people tipping them over on the sidewalk. From your post I am
thinking a scissors type of device could move the wheels out and lower
the seat.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joe Smalley
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 10:44 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Wheelchair stability (was Toyota makes an EV)
Alan:
Wheelbase is the centerline distance from the front axle to the back
axle.
Do you really mean track width? It is the transverse distance from the
centerline of the left wheel to the centerline of the right wheel.
Some wheelchairs have a provision for raising and lowering the operator.
With the operator high, it facilitated communication with standing
people.
With the operator low, it is more stable on uneven ground.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Former owner of 48 volt Fiesta
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Brinkman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 10:36 AM
Subject: RE: Toyota makes an EV
> Jeff,
>
> I was just thinking about something like this early today. An elderly
> gentleman from our town is now using one of those three or four wheel
> mobility type electric units to get around in. When he goes down the
> side walk, and he does travel quite a distance, he has trouble at the
> crosswalks, and on uneven surfaces he will tip the unit on its side.
I
> have contacted the city to repair one street / sidewalk connection to
> make it smoother, and they came out quickly and got it done when they
> heard that the fellow had fallen over. Making these units small to
get
> around the house / store is fine, but then when they are taken any
> distance outside they hit an obstacle and then are unstable. I
thought
> that the seat could be on a pedestal and lowered when taking the unit
in
> uneven terrain, and possibly the front axle could move forward, and
how
> could you make the wheel base widen cheaply?
>
> Alan
>
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In the diagram below, will there ever be 144V across the open K1 relay
contacts if the relay is always closed before switch S1 is closed, and
the switch is always opened before the relay is opened?
144V 0V
+ +
| |
+ + |
K1 / \ S1
+ |
| |
+-------- DVM -------+
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
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Hmmmm - that is a helpful idea,
or is it?
Did you check Dan's email address ;-)
(it is in the first line under your response... :D
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brandon Kruger
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 7:31 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
Maybe you should use gmail. Better search and conversation view, so you can
see every post on the specified topic.
Brandon Kruger
http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/
http://cafepress.com/altfuel
On 6/14/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'll be blunt to save time. an email based forum is quite retarded. it
> lacks the structure a web forum can provide so not every post has to
> be a complete record of all that went before. it lacks the features
> like embedded pictures. potentially better search. an always available
> record no 1 hour gray filter delays in posts.. etc
>
> mailing list is legacy concept and the proponents stagnant.
>
> Dan
>
> TrotFox Greyfoot wrote:
> > Disagreed. The only reason I keep up with this list is that it's in
> > Email format. I prefer it just the way it is. If I'd wanted to use
> > a forum I would have went looking for an EV forum. If You want to
> > use a forum, go find one.
> >
> > I'm sure others will agree with me although I do recognize that some
> > will want to surf to it.
> >
> > Trot, the opinionated, fox...
> >
> > On 6/14/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> stating the obvious, this should be a webbased forum can someone
> >> set that up?
> >>
> >> it should also be augmented with live (logged) chat and there is a
> >> newly formed irc channel #EV on freenode.net should anyone be
intererested.
> >>
> >> Dan
> >
>
>
--
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This is hardly the first time it's come up.
People argue that the genny will allow them to get another 10% of range
or whatever so they can use it more often. The per-mile smog emissions
might be 10x higher than a car, but it's only 10% of the time.
Otherwise they would not try to own an EV at all.
It's a valid theory, but I doubt it has any merit in practice. It is
only a rather marginal gain in range unless you plan to spend a very
long downtime running the genny to drive a few miles or use a HUGE
genny. It seems unlikely that suddenly this small gain in range lets
you drive all that much more. Sure if your trip to work is 30 mi and
you can only manage a 28 mi range- but how often is that really the
case? And if your batteries are that marginal for the job, how long
till they age enough so the little boost a genny gives still won't let
you get there? Especially if you're taxing them to their limit to make
the trip over and over (deep discharges).
The generator comes with a significant need for weight and space. It
requires some clearance to anything flammable or meltable, and needs to
have an exhaust system routed again. This could easily displace the
weight available for 2 or 3 batts or more, and displace the volume of 4
or 5 batts.
It's also embarrasing and likely illegal to drive with a loud, smelly
generator. And it will almost certainly be loud.
I'd be more than willing to readily accept a change in the situation if
a small, powerful, efficient, quiet, and clean generator became
available. Or even 3 out of 5 if the change is significant. The
Capstone Microturbine is sort of there, but in the end the efficiency in
generating electricity just doesn't seem to measure up. It's quiet,
fairly powerful, well designed, and low emissions, but when I ran some
calcs it doesn't look like it's a whole lot more efficient than the
original engine. Maybe some- but not enough to redesign the car and
spend thousands on a hacked-together system.
All I can say is that of what I've seen of generators on the market that
people have considered, none will provide a practical service for an
EV. Will displace so much of the EV's batt capacity that the already
limited capabilities of the EV make it a near-useless EV that relies on
the generator too much. Then it's just a horrifically dirty and
inefficient engine and STILL has a very limited range, and there's no
apparent merit to that that I can see.
Danny
Marty Hewes wrote:
I could pull a small generator on a trailer for that 1% of the time I
need it. Virtually no downside when I don't use it.
More comments below:
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