EV Digest 6902
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: EV achilles' heel
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: long range EV MC
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) What batteries to try next
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Please read - off topic and inappropriate subjects
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: long range EV MC, Re: Oh No... Another Newbie...
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) no longer a virgin
by Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV achilles' heel - Trailer thoughts
by jukka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) TS' problem (was: New Subscriber)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Cycle live definition
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Corded mower
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) EVision sneak preview - few photos (Re: New Zillch Controller)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: TS cell exchange... WAS:Re: New Subscriber
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) unsubscribe
by "Patrick Andrews" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: gas taxes...
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) What batteries to try next?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: How the Prius Works
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: What batteries to try next?
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: How the Prius Works
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Please read - off topic and inappropriate subjects
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV CVT (Was: How the Prius Works)
by "TrotFox Greyfoot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Cycle live definition
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) TdS Report #7: Photos - Woodstock Photos
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
>the bed of an S10? When you connect it to the vehicle? When the vehicle
>starts to move (legal while parked off the pavement)? If the Vehicle needs
>it to move (thus an integral part of the vehicle)? Because the EV itself
is
>no longer an EV and loses it's exclusions?
>On a related note, if you took an emissions legal engine, all emissions
gear
>intact, and ran a generator with it, would that be legal, or is it only
>certified with it's original drivetrain? Isn't the trans part of the
>certified package?
This is a bit of a strange situation. As an 'aftermarket fuel conversion',
40 CFR 85.502 indicates that it would be the emissions requirements
of the original vehicle, in your case, a 1978 Jeep. You can't exceed the
class limits of the original engine. PHEV's are specifically
included in here, which is what you are really creating by adding either
a pusher trailer or a genset.
Now, if you stop at the side of the road and charge from a portable
generator, is it an HEV or is the generator still an off-road device?
Convince a judge, but I know which way I'd be leaning.
The wording does not specifically have a statement about a 'trailer'
so I would suspect it depended on if your lawyer could convince a judge
one way or the other.
An 'aftermarket' installer is exempt from deterioration testing and
the supplemental US06 test cycle. Personal-use is not specifically
covered in this CFR, so, again, it'll depend on your lawyer and
judge.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, not only a sweet spot, but belts have a considerable whip action, which
can take out motor bearings very quickly. This is OK for a bike. These are
either short-life drag machines, or not really designed for long term
service.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: long range EV MC
> > Few bikes or other built as EV's use transmissions as
> > they just don't need them so save the weight, cost, hassle.
> > Just Gates Polychain belt it from the motors' shafts to the
> > rear wheel.
>
> While I agree that developing a CVT specifically for an EV sounds off the
> wall on the surface, consider that even the best motors have a limited
sweet
> spot (rpm) for thermal stability and ideal output/Ah. I see definite
> possibilities in developing a CVT in conjunction with controller
programming
> that runs the motor from 0 rpm to its ideal rpm and holds it there, after
> which vehicle speed adjustment is accomplished by variation of trans
ratios.
> It might not be ideal for drag racing but it might be perfect for
> development of higher-range EVs while limiting motor wear and controller
> cost. It also provides a margin of safety for two-wheeled vehicles in the
> unlikely event of motor seizure.
>
> Lon Hull
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Jeff, out of curiosity what was the range with that. About 32
miles or so?
Did you do 2 parallel packs
Reason I ask is I need to replace my 144 volt system and was thinking
of going with Orbitals.
Thanks,
Chip
On Jun 15, 2007, at 12:55 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: June 14, 2007 10:26:16 PM EDT
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: What batteries to try next?
I just replaced my 24 exide orbitals. They were weak but still under
warantee. I did findout that they are really easy to reverse but they
recover from that ok.
They didn't last as long as I thought they should, but it was my first
pack. :-) so about 8000 miles and 1.5 years
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
Over the last week, EVDL traffic has been unusually heavy.
Regrettably, a significant amount of that traffic has been unrelated or only
marginally related to EVs. Quite a few bytes have been expended on
personal attacks, insults, counterattacks, and defenses; the operation of
gasoline (only) fueled "hybrid" vehicles; and (yet again) whether the EVDL
should be a forum or should remain a mailing list.
1. Please, no more personal comments. No more jibes, attacks, insults,
defenses, or counterattacks from ANYONE, please. This is not the kind of
behavior one expects of thoughtful adults. Remember, this list is archived
permanently in several places. This stuff does not make us look very
admirable.
All I ask is good old fashioned common courtesy - basically, what Mom
taught you.
A fairly crude but useful rule of thumb is that if you might get popped in the
nose if you said it to someone's face, then don't type it here. I have read a
LOT of stuff recently that I think might well have led to physical violence if
it
were delivered in person. Cut it out.
2. The Toyota and Honda "hybrids" are interesting technical achievements,
but they aren't EVs. They derive all their energy from gasoline. It's
appropriate to discuss CONVERTING them to EVs and PHEVs here, but not
to discuss them as gasoline fueled vehicles.
Please try to keep the EVDL discussion of these cars focused on making
them into plug-in hybrids and BEVs.
If you want to discuss the Prius and its transmission, or PSD, or whatever
you call it, there are much better places than the EVDL. You'll be amazed at
the level of knowledge here:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Prius_Technical_Stuff/
If you want to talk about more mundane matters (and squabble about some
fairly silly stuff), try this one :
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Prius-2G/
A more general group for earlier generations of the Prius :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius/
I'm not so sure about where to best discuss the Honda "hybrids." Maybe
someone else can suggest a mailing list, group, or forum for Honda gas-only
hybrids. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure they're discussed here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hybrid-Cars/
Hope this helps.
3. I don't expect the EVDL to move to a forum any time in the foreseeable
future. Thus, at the risk of sounding a bit cranky, I have some requests and
suggestions.
a. Please stop responding to posts proposing such a move or change. I
suggest that you delete them unread if possible. Don't worry that if you don't
respond, the pro-forum crowd will carry the day. The archive tells the story.
b. If you feel compelled to >propose< such a move, before doing so, please
read every one of the hundreds (if not thousands) of posts in the archives in
which this subject has been exhaustively discussed.
Then, kindly DON'T. Come back in a year or two.
c. If you've already started an EV forum, you're entirely welcome to invite
EVDL members to participate. However, when you do, please refrain from
opening yet another discussion about the relative merits of forums and
mailing lists. (Again: see the archives.)
Thanks for your understanding about these matters. Now let's get back to
discussing EVs. And if we're going to argue, let's argue about AC vs DC
drives and/or flooded vs AGM batteries. ;-)
David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Loni,
> From: "Loni"
After comparing the (disappointing) products available
in the two-wheeled EV world (I have to include
Electric Motorsports in this assessment) with the
capabilities of killacycle and others on the drag
circuit, I have to ask if it's reasonable to pursue
development of a scooter/motorcycle capable of 70+
mph, 100+ mile range, 0-60 mph under 5 seconds, and a
weight of under 450 lbs. Armor Electric,
http://www.armorelectric.com/home.htm, is moving in
the right direction, but I want to see better yet.
>
If you can do a bike that performs as you wish, go
ahead. I would be happy to review it at
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net . But, dont think
your the only one taht is persuing the same goals.
____________________________________________________________________________________Ready
for the edge of your seat?
Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Took my first EV ride today. Even the wife had a big ol grin on her
face. Just a quarter mile but, no dinosaurs were harmed in the
duration of the drive. However, I found out that I have murdered my
first two batteries. They did not survive the wait for the Zilla.
Thank you all, for your help and all the information.
R. Matt Milliron
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
1981 Jet Electrica
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Batts: 45 pcs of 200 Ah LiCo-cells. That's about 32 kWh and 250 kgs.
BMS: GENII BMS version made in cooperation with FEVT/MME.
Car: Citroén Berlingo EV (OEM) 1999 modell.
The components are priced according the agreed sales prices world wide.
The donor cost only 2000 eur due some missing parts (NiCd batts) and
cooperation with Enviro Elbilsalg AS, Norge.
Car has now 50 pcs of LFP-150s but other components are same.
-Jukka
Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
sounds awfully cheap for a load of lithium. what capacity and price was
the lithium in it? and how long does it go?
jukka wrote:
about 20 000 eur with labor already included. BMW is not yet finished
but I believe it will not be the one with most range.
-Jukka
Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
how much did your longest ranging ev cost?
jukka wrote:
Right. I choose the car according the need. If I need 200 miles I
take the 200 mile car from the garage. That's as easy as that.
Just out of curiosity I put 300 kg of lead acids as extra weight to
trailer and drove 200 km with one charge. Now If I would have had
there Lions too and connected to the drivesystem, I would have
achieved 400-450 km range with the Berlingo.
I do not know about you but after that kind of trip I really need to
get some rest and sleep. That's nearly 6 hours of continous driving.
That is already extreme.
If the EV should do the 500 km every freaking day it has to be
specially designed for the job.
Clearly the case is that if you need ICE range and instant fueling
forget EVs for now. It just isn't the right tool for the job.
-Jukka
Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
you are just being silly :) and wrong
rather than a range extender you would rather just drive your ev??
: ) why didn't I think of that. that's brilliant
jukka wrote:
Com'on man. I'd rather swallow razor blades than destroy the whole
EV concept with smelly ICE.
I rather drive my EVs all around and then rent a Ferrari for a
week with the saved money every year.
I'll be the guy passing with Italian horses while you murder the
small ice with overrevs.. eh eh ehee hhee.. °°°! (Am I out of
line? hope so :)
-Jukka
Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
no. small onboard ice gen for use only when batteries are flat.
jukka wrote:
How about a small trailer with even a bit of room for ballast ?
I was plannig to make a trailer with Lions under the floor. And
a nice small cover for the extra luggage.
The trailer would be an independent unit with charger and etc.
You drive with it a distance (say 80 miles) then you leave it
for charging some where and continue without it or you can just
keep dragging it along untile reached the destiation. You could
still use the oh-so-old lead in the car for comfort.
A small trailer could sell for 5000-8000 USD. Or how about If
few would be made and rented for testing ? Or a EV chapter
aquire one and folks can use it when needed. 1 week annually
each member.
-Jukka
Michael Wendell kirjoitti:
I've considered a veggie oil diesel or a propane generator
given that the tesla roadster motor makes 170kWh shouldn't
30Kw generation be possible in a reasonably sized generator.
didn't we just spend more than a month discussing the
innefficiencies of an
onboard (or trailered) generator? is it possible to put this
information in
the FAQ somewhere and point all future discussions to that URL?
m.
Michael Wendell
Speedgoat Bicycles
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Win a $5000 custom mountain bike, and help fight breat cancer!
http://www.speedgoat.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
jukka wrote:
...
How long has the small boy to live with the name of know murderer ? Why
he has to carry the burden ?
Wrong analogy, TS is not a new boy. It's still TS mentality no matter
who says what.
TS can change product, management and
name, but in essence it remains TS culture. If they change name,
it's even worse, it's misleading by covering their tracks. This means
old company no longer exists and so whoever had any hope for any
warranty claims, is now screwed - no more TS so all problems about TS
past are gone. Who cares about customers.
Wrong way to fix the damage.
I'm referring to the fact that the TS has kept its name but the
ownerships and resources are quite different from the screwups.
Makes no difference. With all respect to you personally, these are
only your words Jukka. It has not been demonstrated and I'm not sure
TS is even aware that they have to do anything about what they've done
in the past.
Currently there is still one problem. Cells are sold witout BMS to any
customer who wan't to buy. And nearly as many cells get broken by the
ignorant users. And claim cells being bad.
This is not the problem for someone mike me. I don't mean that I came up
with my BMS I can attach to any Li cells including TS. I mean I will
never buy TS product, BMS or no BMS. It is not a problem for anyone
who's opinion about TS is settled - they no longer care about fine
details like BMS. About any details for that matter until there is a
hard earned unquestionable proof of otherwise.
Nowadays all cells are tested and data logged to DBs. So we know what
was the cell condition before it leaves the factory. No DOAs should be
possible. But ofcourse.. anything can happen during transport.
Sure, That's what they told me before shipping 504 cells in 5 containers.
Do you really think that changing the name would solve this issue ? We
just might do that.
As I said, if TS does that once, they ruin their future forever for sure
- people will expect not only questionable product but also deceiving
practices to cover wrong doing.
But seriously. I wish there would be another way to
gat around this. New cells ?
How about if you then send me the complete list of broken cells ? I know
Victor and Lee got some. Who else ?
I can dig up list of all 11 people who bought what if I put some time
in it. I personally had 96 TS-LP90 cells. But money in this case is not
everything. I'd be happy to get my money back from TS, which I don't
believe I ever will, but even if I did, it will not convert me into a
believer that this company is great.
Sure, I'll accept brand new 90Ah cells from TS. What's delivery date?
What? Can't hear you.
That's what I'm talking about.
-Jukka
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> That's something I've been meaning to ask. What constitutes a cycle?
> Any
> time you plug in the charger? Or is there some minimum amount of
> discharge
> required before you consider a trip to the wall outlet a cycle?
>
> Thx,
jukka wrote:
I have explained to my self the cycle as follows:
"When I have charged the amount of energy taken in previous discharge."
This is not accurate Jukka. I may take 5% out from previous cycle
and completely replenish it back, but 5% in/out is certainly not a
full cycle.
Proper definition of a full cycle is count how many times amount of
Ah equal to rated capacity has gone through the cell.
For 100Ah cell:
- 2 discharges/charges of 50Ah each, equal to one full cycle (counting
toward cycle life).
- 5 discharges/charges 20Ah each = one full cycle.
- One 50Ah discharge/charge = partial half-cycle.
You can do 1/3, 1/10 of a cycle, whatever, but accumulated full
cycles count toward life, or more precisely amount of total Ah
through the cell - no matter how shallow it is split in partial
cycles (within reasonable limits).
This is the reason that shallow discharge "increases cycle life".
Sure, problem is each claimed "cycle" is really partial one so total
amount of Ah which has gone through the cell is pretty much the same.
1000 full 100Ah cycles - it's 100k Ah through the cell.
If you discharge and charge back to 50% all cell's life
(50Ah). you shure get 200 [partial] cycles, but it's still
100k Ah through it.
Dependency is not linear, but you get the idea.
Now, manufacturers may choose different definition, to demonstrate
that by shallow discharge they double (triple, whatever) cycle live.
That's fine as long as you're aware that each of those newly defined
"cycles" produce respectively 1/2 (1/3, whatever) of the amount of work
a full cycle would.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 6/11/07, Jukka Järvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
p.s.- There will be 50 Lion packs (~24V) coming back from testfield. few
hundred cycles in. Newer system with greater capacity goes in return.
Anyone interested in "old" ones ?
Hi Jukka, I would like one or two for my 24V electric bike please :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you Joe,
Speaking of "cheap EV parts" - finally big effort paid off and
e-meter's "big brother" EVision is ready for field beta testing.
For those who missed initial introduction or just new to EVDL,
EVision is a universal EV monitor, sort of expanded version of
e-meter.
100 production PCBs turned in yesterday and I built
4 units by hand for high voltage bench testing (max battery voltage
is 525VDC) and noise measurements. One unit goes into ACRX replacing
breadboarded main controller and HMI. Display is already there.
Here are few links to the photos what the system consists of
and look like (links to some photos may have been posted here before):
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/evision/all.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/evision/all2.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/evision/veh_interface.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/evision/production_pcbs.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/evision/overview.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/evision/driving_sample.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/evision/charging_sample.jpg
System with 200A shunt is shown (BRUSA shunt front end
for easy legacy upgrades is used).
There are 5 major blocks (4 are shown) - main controller,
remote HMI block display unit, front end measurement PCB with
the current shunt, expansion PCB and tire pressure
receiver block. Last two are not production ready, but the system
can work without those and even without speed sensor. will
be connected to the common CAN bus. Eventually power inverter,
charger and BMS will be on this bus integrating whole electric
vehicle control. 200 kW inverter which is coming this summer
(will have photos of it next week) will be able to talk to
EVision and we will try something new here.
You'll be able to record all driving, charging, power, efficiency and
bunch of other parameters via isolated RS232 port. And, recalling
woes about needing isolated power for e-meter, supply issue is
addressed - unit doesn't need separate power supply, and doesn't even
need house 12V supply. It gets power from traction battery consuming
2mA (high voltage pack) to 20mA (low voltage pack). In fact no 12V
battery is needed in the EV at all to maintain functionality
of EVision.
Some specs are listed on the web site. See
http://www.metricmind.com/evision.htm
As soon as beta road tests complete and the manual ready, I actually
can take orders. The system as designed is really meant to be
an OEM unit, but as with everything else Metric Mind offers, I make
it available to individuals.
The price? First 10 units will go for $550, others after that - $675
for now.
Few people will be doing beta testing in their EVs and will report to
the list what is good and what needs improvements before product is
released to general market. This should take 1 month or so to collect
all field data and implement software fixes if needed.
My hat's off to Otmar, Rich and others do-ers. I can tell you, it is
major effort to bring something of that scale to the market, and we all
can have it really inexpensive for what it is. Those who think their
hardware cost too much either don't realize what it is and what it
takes, or just don't appreciate it. I can confirm this first hand.
Victor
--
'91 ACRX - something different
Joe Smalley wrote:
...
Is there a market for "Cheap EV Parts"? Someone needs to wade into the
market with an appropriate line of components and see if they can develop a
good customer base. Some people on this list say there is no market for
cheap parts. I believe there is a market. Is there money in that market? I
don't know. You are a good person to find out. If you believe you can break
even using this business plan, go for it and we will be looking for cheaper
parts being available in the future.
If you want to work this business plan, you should assemble a product team,
design some products, build the products and market the products to the
world. If you have a reasonable product at a reasonable price with
reasonable service, then you should succeed in your effort and at least
break even at the end of the year. Otmar, Damen, Russ, Victor, and Rich have
done it. Therefore you have an opportunity to do it, too.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
jukka wrote:
The company is:
International Battery Inc.
81 N. Maple Avenue Ridgewood, NJ 07450
phone 210-444-3232
www.internationalbatteryinc.com
-Jukka
... and I happen to know the owner personally, Joe Szetella (sp?) whom
I met at EVS-23 in Japan last October. 'Course since then we discussed
cells distribution and BMS situation. He's based in New York.
Victor
Paul kirjoitti:
On Jun 14, 2007, at 12:27 PM, jukka wrote:
I have to be clear here. Most of you are in states. I have no right
to sell stuff there. Thou I can give for free. :) There is a sole
distributorship and own battery factory in USA. It's an independent
company but has licensed the TS tech.
Are you able to give the name and contact info for this company? A web
site and/or product line info available for purchase in the U.S. would
be good too.
Having someone from the company on this list answering questions and
not ignoring the past problems is a good first step to repairing TS
reputation damage. Replacing defective past product would be another
positive step.
I didn't buy any of the original TS batteries but positive reports of
their current use would certainly influence future battery choices. I
do tend to listen to words from Lee Hart, Rich Rudman, John Lussmyer,
and any number of other experienced EVers.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
unsubscribe
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Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN
http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That would be bad. I know my Geo tells me how many miles I have driven
with the scangage I use to calculate mpg. It is only off from my
odometer by about 3/10 of a mile.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 15:48
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: gas taxes...
On Wed, June 13, 2007 11:58 am, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
wrote:
> I don't think the GPS thing will ever kick off.
Oregon didn't use a GPS. There's already a mileage counter in the
internal computer on all new cars. In a pilot plan, they charged a
per-mile fee, charged when the car was refueled.
I imagine someone buying a PU from one of these construction companies
that fills from their own tanks. Imagine paying $5,000 for your first
tank of gas. <g>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think their demise was caused by excessive depth of discharge do to
rotten wh/mile(430wh/mile) , but I am not sure.
All were from the distributer and suppose to be of one batch, but they
screwed up.
1/2 were made in april and 1/2 made in sept with me buying them in november.
After 17 monthes, 1/2 were noticably reduced capacity than the other half.
Funny thing, No relation to april vs sept manufac codes.
If anything, the batteries enclosed in the car suffered compared to the
batteries under the hood which may
indicate temperature sensitivity.
My worry with the new pack is now I can't charge at work so it sits in
the parking lot for 10-12 hours with 22kwh(72%SOC) taken out.
I consider my capacity to be 34ah*288V * .8 or 78Kwh on a new pack and
generally use ~ 50kwh/day
Here is an interesting observation. It is very consistant at 22kwh to
work and 25kwh to get home.
I haven't decided if it is the stoplights or if there is a slight
elevation change.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Correct me if I am wrong, but MG1 is just a generator. All traction
power is made from MG2. MG1 just goes faster or slower as needed to
generate power or to start the ICE motor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of (-Phil-)
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 16:44
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
I stand corrected. After looking at the diagrams, its obvious that I
was incorrect about the direct coupling of MG1 and the ICE. They are
coupled through the planetary gearset that effectively makes the system
a 3-way differential.
So this means the ICE can be stopped and MG1 can still rotate. (MG2 is
turning backwards).
The max speed at the wheels is 42 MPH before MG1 is over it's redline,
so this is the max Electric-only speed without turning the ICE.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
> MG1 is directly coupled to the ICE. They always run together, and MG1
is
> used to start the ICE as well as generate electricity (with MG2) when
the
> vehicle is not in motion.
>
> For example, If you leave your AC on sitting there, eventually the ICE
> will run briefly to recharge the pack.
>
> There are NO clutches whatsoever. The MG1/ICE combo is on one
mechanical
> "side" of the diff (planetary gearset) and the other "side" is MG2.
In
> order for the ICE to run without the vehicle moving, MG2 has to run
> backwards at the same speed. To make the vehicle move the shuffle
power
> from the MGs. Imagine slowly "braking" MG2 while the ICE/MG1 is
running.
> The Braking is not wasted, it is electricity put into the pack. As
the
> current is ramped up the vehicle begins to roll.
>
> This can also be reversed for "pure electric" mode too. The ICE/MG1
can
> stay off, and just MG2 can run, albeit twice as fast, to move the
vehicle.
> This is why electric only mode is speed limited.
>
> The 4wd version used in the highlander and Lexus SUV simply adds a
> separate 3-phase motor at the rear wheels.
>
> It's mechanically elegant and I am very impressed. If any of you on
the
> list think it's crap, that just shows you aren't much of an engineer.
>
> -Phil
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 6:06 AM
> Subject: RE: How the Prius Works
>
>
>> Phil,
>>
>> I read the wikipedia article and it still sounds like what the
article
>> Jeff sent the link for. MG1 is the generator hooked to a planetary
>> gearbox. It sounds like the are now calling the planetary gearbox a
>> "differential" now instead. The wikipedia and the ecrostech articles
>> don't show pictures of the mechanicals of the system. Does anyone
have
>> pictures of how MG1 and MG2 connects? Saying that MG1 connects to
the
>> Sun gear doesn't show HOW it connects. Does it have a gear on the
>> outside that MG1 drives? Does it have clutches like the sun gear of
an
>> automatic have? I like the mention of MG2 connected through the
>> driveshaft. That makes sense since it is responsible for the torque.
>> It looks like MG1 could be just chained to the ICE motor and run only
>> when the motor is running. It would be really nice to see one of
these
>> out of the car so each part could be shown and a more detailed
operation
>> explained. Personnally I think the ecrostech article is much more
>> informative. The wikipedia article is interesting but as I
understand
>> it wikipedia is not the most reliable source of information since
anyone
>> can edit the data.
>>
>> Jody
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
>> Behalf Of (-Phil-)
>> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 6:01
>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
>>
>> I suggest you guys do a modicum of research..... You are incorrect.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive
>>
>> -Phil
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 3:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
>>
>>
>>> No, the CVT is a proper transmission and can carry the full HP of
the
>>> engine to the wheels.
>>> There is only one electric motor/generator. Actually there's a
second
>>
>>> motor for engine starting and providing countertorque for the CVT
>> gears
>>> but it's not a drive motor.
>>> The motor/generator is only there to boost the peak engine power and
>> allow
>>> the engine to shut off when its high power is not needed and there
is
>>> sufficient battery power to meet the driver's demands.
>>>
>>> Danny
>>>
>>> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
>>>
>>>> I didn't say it was a series hybrid. I said it was essentially an
>>>> electric clutch. isn't it?
>>>>
>>>> I don't think the prius arrangement could be cheaper than a series
>>>> layout. I would be interested in hearing the design justification
but
>>
>>>> doubt it would satisfy
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>>
>>>> Danny Miller skrev:
>>>>
>>>>> No, it has a mechanical CVT transmission in there. Gears and all.
>> The
>>>>> Prius is a parallel hybrid, if the wiring between a generator and
>> motor
>>>>> were the only link from engine to wheels then it'd be a series
>> hybrid.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's interesting to note that the engineers spent an awful lot of
>> design
>>>>> time, expense and weight to make a CVT tranny rather than add a
>> separate
>>>>> motor from the generator so they can run at different speeds.
>> Either
>>>>> the losses are simply too high or the second motor is more
expensive
>>
>>>>> than the tranny.
>>>>>
>>>>> The earlier generations of Prius used an electric motor that could
>> not
>>>>> produce great acceleration or top speed without the engine. In
2003
>> the
>>>>> hatchback had a 50KW motor instead of the earlier 30KW and 33KW
>> ones.
>>>>>
>>>>> Danny
>>>>>
>>>>> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> (-Phil-) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just to clarify, the Prius doesn't have a separate CVT. The CVT
>> *is*
>>>>>>> the motor/generators!
>>>>>>> By shuffling power between the 2 motor/gens you effectively have
a
>>
>>>>>>> CVT. It's a totally ingenious system!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> aside from the fact that the end result is an expensive ICE car
and
>> not
>>>>>> an EV. it's effectively an electric clutch. the design will not
>> survive
>>>>>> and should never have been. if one was conspiratorially inclined
>> (and
>>>>>> one is) one might be suspicious that they intentionally chose a
bad
>>
>>>>>> design because it could give the illusion of being
environmentally
>>>>>> friendly while still remaining a pure ICE car.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 6/15/07, Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I consider my capacity to be 34ah*288V * .8 or 78Kwh on a new pack and
generally use ~ 50kwh/day
Err, that's 9.7kWh rated Jeff, not 97 :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think one of the sites I read said that the 2nd generation PRIUS will
only go 3.5 miles on battery only.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael Perry
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 0:37
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
But how far would a Prius go on battery only? The latest Prius has only
100 lbs of batts.
----- Original Message -----
From: "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
> I imagine if you ever found a Prius with a blown ICE, you could, with
a
> metric crapton of work, take it out and just use the 2 MGs in an all
> electric car. You'd have to re-write the software, or (probably
easier)
> just cut the existing controls right up to the inverter and put in
your
own
> logic to drive them.
>
> With the ICE out, you could increase the electric-only speed, as both
MGs
> would be running.
>
> A little known mode of the Prius is called "coast" where you are going
too
> fast for Electric only, but the car doesn't want the ICE running. It
shuts
> off the ICE and alters the valve timing somehow to drastically reduce
> pumping loss. The ICE still turns, but no fuel, no spark, and no air.
>
> -Phil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
3. I don't expect the EVDL to move to a forum any time in the foreseeable
future. Thus, at the risk of sounding a bit cranky, I have some requests and
suggestions.
a. Please stop responding to posts proposing such a move or change. I
suggest that you delete them unread if possible. Don't worry that if you don't
respond, the pro-forum crowd will carry the day. The archive tells the story.
b. If you feel compelled to >propose< such a move, before doing so, please
read every one of the hundreds (if not thousands) of posts in the archives in
which this subject has been exhaustively discussed.
Then, kindly DON'T. Come back in a year or two.
c. If you've already started an EV forum, you're entirely welcome to invite
EVDL members to participate. However, when you do, please refrain from
opening yet another discussion about the relative merits of forums and
mailing lists. (Again: see the archives.)
I think that's an unfortunate hardening of the heart. let me reword it
to maybe shed som light on what you said.
GM wrote:
I don't expect we will make EVs any time in the foreseeable future. Thus
at the risk of sounding a bit cranky, I have some requests and
suggestions.
a. Please stop responding to people proposing such a move or change. I
suggest that you don't even listen to them if possible. Don't worry that if you don't
respond, the pro-EV crowd will carry the day. History tells the story.
b. If you feel compelled to >propose< we make EVs, before doing so, please
study every one of the hundreds (if not thousands) of incidents where this subject has been exhaustively discussed.
Then, kindly DON'T. Come back in a year or two.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Phil,
You're not helping!
I suspect you all knew what I meant...
Trot, the electrically-minded, fox...
On 6/14/07, (-Phil-) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Actually, 3-legged Diodes are very common. (2 diodes per package back to
back) =)
-Phil
--
| /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember,
| ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a
| >\_/< [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was wondering what the age of the battery has a effect on cycle life. The
last battery pack I had was rated at 300 AH. I with draw about 10 AH a day
at a 50 amp rate. Charge about once a week at 30 amps.
One cycle for me would be about one month or 12 cycles a year. This would be
about 25 years for 300 cycles, but I had to replace these batteries after 10
years of use.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 4:09 AM
Subject: Cycle live definition
> >
> > That's something I've been meaning to ask. What constitutes a cycle?
> > Any
> > time you plug in the charger? Or is there some minimum amount of
> > discharge
> > required before you consider a trip to the wall outlet a cycle?
> >
> > Thx,
>
> jukka wrote:
> > I have explained to my self the cycle as follows:
> >
> > "When I have charged the amount of energy taken in previous discharge."
>
> This is not accurate Jukka. I may take 5% out from previous cycle
> and completely replenish it back, but 5% in/out is certainly not a
> full cycle.
>
> Proper definition of a full cycle is count how many times amount of
> Ah equal to rated capacity has gone through the cell.
>
> For 100Ah cell:
>
> - 2 discharges/charges of 50Ah each, equal to one full cycle (counting
> toward cycle life).
>
> - 5 discharges/charges 20Ah each = one full cycle.
>
> - One 50Ah discharge/charge = partial half-cycle.
> You can do 1/3, 1/10 of a cycle, whatever, but accumulated full
> cycles count toward life, or more precisely amount of total Ah
> through the cell - no matter how shallow it is split in partial
> cycles (within reasonable limits).
>
> This is the reason that shallow discharge "increases cycle life".
> Sure, problem is each claimed "cycle" is really partial one so total
> amount of Ah which has gone through the cell is pretty much the same.
>
> 1000 full 100Ah cycles - it's 100k Ah through the cell.
> If you discharge and charge back to 50% all cell's life
> (50Ah). you shure get 200 [partial] cycles, but it's still
> 100k Ah through it.
>
> Dependency is not linear, but you get the idea.
>
> Now, manufacturers may choose different definition, to demonstrate
> that by shallow discharge they double (triple, whatever) cycle live.
> That's fine as long as you're aware that each of those newly defined
> "cycles" produce respectively 1/2 (1/3, whatever) of the amount of work
> a full cycle would.
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #7: Photos - Woodstock Photos
Photographs from the Tour de Sol:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2007/photos_001.html
Woodstock Photos
"Woodstock", named after the Snoopy's little yellow bird friend,
is from the Saint Marks School EV Club in Southborough Massachusetts.
In past years one of their claims-to-fame was that they got all their energy
from "clean" sources, namely the solar panels on the truck plus the Kansas wind
and Evergreen solar power they purchased from the grid.
Now they are collecting wind power when they are parked, also.
Here is Woodstock in charging mode.
There is 300 watts of solar panels over the cargo bed,
plus the generator.
Another view.
The wind generator is plugged into one of six taps into the battery pack,
accessed through the trunk.
Here they are setting up the wind generator at the Burlington County Earth
Fair.
Rolling a wheel over the welded frame firmly anchors the wind generator stand.
Then pulling a couple of lock pins allows the stand to be angled so as to
attach the propeller and raise the telescoping tubes.
It is then rotated into the vertical position and the lock pins reinserted.
The box with the wire coming out has a toggle switch to apply brake the
generator if the wind gets too strong.
- - - -
The 2007 TdS Reports are actually about the "21st Century Automotive
Challenge" hosted by the The Eastern Electric Vehicle Club (EEVC).
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2007 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2007
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2007 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the "21st Century Automotive Challenge", see the web page at
http://www.EEVC.info
--- End Message ---
