EV Digest 6911
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) mechanical regen and silicon carbide controller
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: What batteries to try next?
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Internal Resistance
by Marcin Ciosek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Quiet Vacuum Pump
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: What happened when I went to cash in on my battery warrenty
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: What happened when I went to cash in on my battery warrenty
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) EV conversion legislation: tax breaks
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Engine parts to keep?
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Clutch
by "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: gas taxes...
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: Trouble getting into the "ev-list-archive"
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: [EV] Clutch
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Clutch
by "Michael Wendell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Sevcon 128/12V DC/CD Wanted
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Clutch
by "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Sevcon 128/12V DC/CD Wanted
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Battery Warranties - How to get them to give me replacements
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Wanted: Knife switch for battery disconnect [clarification]
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: full size truck conversion
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Prius conversion
by Tom Gocze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Clutch
by "Freddie Hartsell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Clutch
by "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Clutch
by "Freddie Hartsell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Big tax credits!! Re: EV conversion legislation: tax breaks
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Engine parts to keep?
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) PML 640BHP+ Electric Mini Video
by "Simon Chambers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Engine parts to keep?
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
for those of you who dont read greencarcongress...
an interesting, very light, mechanical regen system planned for use in
F1 cars
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/06/torotrak_and_xt.html
If you could buy one for less than $100k it would work in an EV, in theory.
A grant to work on a more efficient motorcontroller
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/06/uqm_technologie.html
possible trickle-down to DIY in 10 years, but maybe good news for the OEMs.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Willmon wrote:
The price sheet is for VRLA (lead acid) 2 volt cells, not the Ni-Cd's.
A 220AH VRLA cell weighs about 36 lbs. To get 120V worth it would be 60 x 35
lbs = 2160 lbs for a 24KWH pack. Way too much for a
little car. Not to mention the price.
Keep scrolling down. The NiCads are under KMP and KHP.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
IR for li-ion varies with the SOC (the lower SOC is the higher IR you get).
Factories usually provide IR value measure at 1kHz frequency on batteries
charged to 60%. But you need to ask.
Widely discussed here Kokam specs some of their big capacity cells <1mOhm
other factory that I'm cooperating that produces LiFePO4 gives me value of
IR<49 mOhms
I know that this is very big difference but I'm just giving you factory
details. In both cases I can confirm that they are pretty accurate.
Regards,
Marcin
On Monday 18 June 2007 18:42:58 Joseph Tahbaz wrote:
> What is a good internal resistance number? If I call the battery
> manufacturer, will they have such information?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folk's,
Put a CL-60 (inrush surge protector) in series with your vacuum pump. Mine
runs a lot quieter when I did that. www.alliedelectronics.com has some.
(The usual disclaimer, I'm not affiliated with Allied, nor is my grandmother
or pet Ardvark.)
Have a renewable energy day,
Mark in Roanoke.
_________________________________________________________________
Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the im Initiative now.
Its free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just to clarify:
The Wal-Mart battery is called a "MAXX-29". It is sold as a deep cycle
battery. Actually I take that back, there's not much about what it's
supposed to be used for listed on it. Might just say "marine". It USED
to have a reserve minutes rating, several years ago. For unknown
reasons they removed this spec from the batt's label, it only lists cold
cranking amps now.
It is a big, cheap, crappy battery. I've killed several in far lighter
service and I expect it to be degraded if not dead in a few weeks of EV
service. It is NOT useful as an EV battery in my opinion and there's
not much reason to continue to discuss it in detail on the EV list.
Danny
Roland Wiench wrote:
Hello Steve,
I will be going to WalMart this week, and like to take a look at the type of
battery you have.
What type of battery and model number are you using, is it a 6 or 12 volt?
Is it a marine or a golf type battery?
What is the amp hour rating of the battery at what reserved minutes at 75
amps load?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
IMHO, anything with a cold cranking amps rating is NOT a deep cycle
battery. Even reserve minutes is not a real deep cycle rating. AH is
what you want to see. If it doesn't say that, it's probably not
suitable for much more than ballast in an EV.
On 6/18/07, Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Just to clarify:
The Wal-Mart battery is called a "MAXX-29". It is sold as a deep cycle
battery. Actually I take that back, there's not much about what it's
supposed to be used for listed on it. Might just say "marine". It USED
to have a reserve minutes rating, several years ago. For unknown
reasons they removed this spec from the batt's label, it only lists cold
cranking amps now.
It is a big, cheap, crappy battery. I've killed several in far lighter
service and I expect it to be degraded if not dead in a few weeks of EV
service. It is NOT useful as an EV battery in my opinion and there's
not much reason to continue to discuss it in detail on the EV list.
Danny
Roland Wiench wrote:
>Hello Steve,
>
>I will be going to WalMart this week, and like to take a look at the type of
>battery you have.
>
>What type of battery and model number are you using, is it a 6 or 12 volt?
>
>Is it a marine or a golf type battery?
>
>What is the amp hour rating of the battery at what reserved minutes at 75
>amps load?
>
--
Zeke Yewdall
Chief Electrical Engineer
Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company
Cell: 720.352.2508
Office: 303.459.0177
FAX documents to: 720.269.1240
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.cosunflower.com
CoSEIA Certified
Certified BP Solar Installer
National Association of Home Builders
Quotable Quote
"In the dark of the moon, in flying snow,
in the dead of winter, war spreading,
families dying, the world in danger,
I walk the rocky hillside
sowing clover."
Wendell Berry
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/06/us_senators_int.html
A tax credit for consumers who purchase plug-in electric or plug-in
hybrid electric vehicles. Freedom Plug-in Credits would cover the
consumer purchase of vehicles which use batteries and which plug into
the electric grid for at least part of their power. This would include
plug-in electrics, plug-in hybrids, and others.
A tax credit through the end of 2010, for consumers who convert their
existing hybrid electric vehicles to high quality plug-in hybrid
vehicles. The credit is either the amount calculated as above (with a
$4,000 cap), or 50% of the cost of the conversion pack, whichever is
less.
-------------
The way i understand it, conversion would get much cheaper in US.
thoughts ? support ?
-kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all,
I am afraid I am not very knowledgeable about engines :) and I am
going to sell my functioning ICE but am not sure what stuff is
important to keep?
I will be retaining the clutch and using a water heater to replace
the heat form the engine for my conversion.
Thanks,
Tehben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well I just pulled the engine out of my Geo.
And I am one of these guys that need to see things to have them make since
some of the time..
So heres the deal..If I bolt my Motor up to the shaft coming out of the
Transmission..Which is what I am suppose to do..
I will no longer have a clutch..
And to shift gears.. What ??
I turn the motor speed down and just throw the stick shift into the next
gear?
Is that right
It sounds amazing to me. If that is it.
Thanks Mitchell
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, June 15, 2007 5:08 am, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
wrote:
> That would be bad. I know my Geo tells me how many miles I have driven
> with the scangage I use to calculate mpg. It is only off from my odometer
> by about 3/10 of a mile.
I *think* that's the same setting they used in the pilot. One of the
people in our van pool was part of the project. Per what she said, there
was interest from around the US and Europe, to see how well the test went.
The theory (now) is that SUVs cause no more damage to the road than does a
MC or light car... thus pay per mile no matter what car you drive. I guess
that makes as much sense as giving preferential tax/road benefits to
"hybrid" cars.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 18 Jun 2007 at 15:17, Mark Fisher wrote:
> I went to the "ev-list-archive" on Yahoo groups:
>
> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/
>
> , and got a "Members only" message.
>
> Whazzup? I thought that was the searchable archive for the individual
> discussion list topics.
That archive has been out of service for quite some time (a couple of months,
IIRC). The current Yahoo replacement is
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/evdl_post_archive/
The principal active archives are always listed here :
http://www.evdl.org/help/
David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> I will no longer have a clutch..
> And to shift gears.. What ??
> I turn the motor speed down and just throw the stick shift into the next
> gear?
>
Thats exactly what you'll do. (and I plan on doing the same)
--
Eduardo K. | Roses are #FF0000
http://www.carfun.cl | Violets are #0000FF
http://ev.nn.cl | All my base Are belong to you
|
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> So heres the deal..If I bolt my Motor up to the shaft
> coming out of the Transmission.
...
> I will no longer have a clutch.
> And to shift gears.. What ??
> I turn the motor speed down and just throw the
> stick shift into the next gear?
>
> Is that right
pretty much exactly.
1. lift your foot off of the accelerator pedal, motor simply turns with the
rotation of the car.
2. push stick shift out of gear, motor spins down to zero.
3. select new gear with stick shift, syncros in transmission spin up the
motor to the new speed of the transmission input shaft. these syncros are
normally used to spin up the weight of the transmission's moving parts and
the clucth, so you're putting alittle more stress on them since they're now
spinning up the motor.
4. foot back on the accelerator. go zoom.
as i hear though, it's definitely slower than shifting with a clutch.
m.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Stensland wrote:
> My old Sevcon died and I'm looking for a drop-in replacement
> for my 108V vehicle. Most of the newer DC/DCs are designed
> to operate at higher input voltages and would be marginal
> performers in this particular car.
Have you considered the Curtis 1400E?
<http://curtisinst.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=cProducts.dspProductCategory
&catID=16>
The webpage lists up to 96V, but if you pull up the .pdf datasheet
you'll find that there is a 120/140V input model of the 1400E. The
1400E is 300/375W, 28A peak, 22A continuous (1hr) rated output @ 13.5V.
It is rated for 65-115% of nominal input voltage, so should work fine
with your 108V pack (since it will run down to 78V).
A sealed unit like this could be a bolt in replacement for your Sevcon
whereas you might have to invent some weatherproofing to allow something
like an Iota power supply to be used under the hood.
I expect anyone who sells Curtis controllers can probably supply you
with one of these. You could check with Randy at CEV
<http://www.canev.com>; I don't know if he still carries them, but he
can probably source one.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also you are likely to wear out the syncros more quickly.
However, don't be tempted to "speed-shift" by using the throttle to
match rpm between gears unless you know you can do it without
over-revving the motor (cause it will go blooie.) Best IMO would be
some species of circuitry in your motor controller to sense and keep
track of gate states (i.e. out of 1st, into 2nd, etc) and
automagically match rpm to speed in the new gear while between gates.
I have not the slightest idea how to do this however, nor have I heard
from anyone else about it.
On 6/18/07, Michael Wendell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So heres the deal..If I bolt my Motor up to the shaft
> coming out of the Transmission.
...
> I will no longer have a clutch.
> And to shift gears.. What ??
> I turn the motor speed down and just throw the
> stick shift into the next gear?
>
> Is that right
pretty much exactly.
1. lift your foot off of the accelerator pedal, motor simply turns with the
rotation of the car.
2. push stick shift out of gear, motor spins down to zero.
3. select new gear with stick shift, syncros in transmission spin up the
motor to the new speed of the transmission input shaft. these syncros are
normally used to spin up the weight of the transmission's moving parts and
the clucth, so you're putting alittle more stress on them since they're now
spinning up the motor.
4. foot back on the accelerator. go zoom.
as i hear though, it's definitely slower than shifting with a clutch.
m.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.belktronix.com/isodcdc.html
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Dave Stensland
> Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 5:32 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Sevcon 128/12V DC/CD Wanted
>
> My old Sevcon died and I'm looking for a drop-in replacement for my 108V
>
> vehicle. Most of the newer DC/DCs are designed to operate at higher
> input voltages and would be marginal performers in this particular car.
>
> Many of you have upgraded to higher voltage systems. If you're one of
> those people who happens to have a Sevcon 128/12 laying around and you'd
>
> consider selling it please contact me offlist with your price.
>
> Thanks,
> -Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Powers wrote:
> Thoughts?
I have to wonder why you want replacements when you can be pretty
certain that they will simply suffer the same fate in another 2 months?
I gather you are using the Everstart Maxx-29? The specs I've seen for
these are:
- Extreme - Marine Starting/RV/Deep Cycle For starting
and continuous use applications
- 875 Marine Cranking Amps
- 205 Minutes Reserve Capacity
- 125 AH
205min reserve capacity means just 85Ah @ 25A, down from 125Ah C/20.
This works out to a Peukert exponent of 1.27.
I think it is wishful thinking to believe that you simply got
mislabelled ones and that a replacement set will perform better. Deep
cycle doesn't mean "cyclic use"; deep cycle often means the battery will
tolerate being discharged 'deeply', but not that it is intended to be
cycled in this way on a daily basis (cyclic use). Often a battery that
is intended for applications where it will be discharged at low rates
(like 25A for trolling motors, etc.) simply won't hold up when
discharged at EV rates (75A to 200-300A).
Rather than trying to kill them off sufficiently for Walmart to hand you
another set, it seems you might be further ahead to sell these off for
SLI/RV use while they are still usable and use the proceeds to offset
the cost of buying a proper set of batteries for the EV.
If you want to stick with 12V floodeds, check out the Trojan J150/T1275,
which is a true deep cycle battery and which will deliver an honest
[EMAIL PROTECTED] US Battery offers the EV-145, which is also a true deep cycle
12V battery, though it may physically be a bit too large for your
application). Even a dual-purpose flooded such as the SCS225, 31TMX,
etc. from Trojan or the US Battery counterpart will serve you better
than the Walmart battery. Any of these options will cost more up front,
but they won't die every two months either.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eric Poulsen wrote:
Anyone out there have a large DPST or DPDT knife switch they want to
unload cheap? I'm tinkering with controller design, and I wanted a
quick and easy battery disconnect (not for emergency). Bonus if it
has built-in fuse holders.
I'd suggest getting a big blade-type fuseholder and matching fuse.
Arrange things to mechanically pull the fuse out of the holder for a
manual disconnect. If you don't need the fuse itself, you can substitute
a piece of copper bar stock of the same size. John Wayland has this type
of setup in his White Zombie, and it has been used at least once for a
full-power emergency shutoff.
To make it double pole, you'll need two fuseholders, and a mechanical
arrangement that lets you move the fuse from one to the other, or pivot
it so one end stays connected while the other end moves.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree Pete, a 30 kw system will be pathetic. But, Owen asked "so what weight
can you use a 30 kw (dc ?) motor on".....
A 30 kw DC motor driven with a 400kw peak drive will probably be quite
sufficient.
Owen, did you mean a 30kw DC motor? Or 30 KW DC system?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
> Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 5:20 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: full size truck conversion
>
> By the time you take motor and controller looses into account, 30kw is
> roughly equal to 30hp.
> So 30kw is good for any vehicle that would normally have a 30 hp motor,
> these days that would be...um...nothing really.
>
> But seriously, as long as you don't mind being a little slow off the
> line,
> 30kw is ok for something small, Geo Metro or similar size. Or something
> slow, souped up NEV perhaps.
>
> Most folks consider the 400 amp Curtis to be under powered. The 400 Amp
> curtis will produce almost 45kw.
>
>> PETER
>> so what weight can you use a 30 kw (dc ?) motor on as I am looking at
>> getting a 3000 kg flat deck truck
>> Owen
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 4:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: full size truck conversion
>>
>>
>>> Ok, try reading the subject AND the body befor replying.
>>>
>>> We aren't talking about 'most' EVs, we are talking about a 'Large
> Truck'
>>> (subject line) that is towing a trailer (mentioned several times in
> the
>>> body)
>>>
>>> 30 kw is barely adequate in a small, lightweight, EV. Actually most
>>> people would find 30kw less than acceptable.
>>>
>>>> I think with a battery pack and a reasonable EV, 190kw is excessive.
>>>> Maybe
>>>> up hill and accel, yes, but that's what the huge battery buffer is
> for.
>>>>
>>>> 30kw would probably do a great job for most EV's.
>>>
>>> I have a small, lightweight EV with a 30kw drive system. It's a 1988
>>> toyota pickup thar weighs 3200 lbs. With only 30kw available it takes
> 80
>>> seconds to get to 60 mph (and no, I did NOT forget the decimal point)
>>>
>>> A large truck that weighs 3x as much would probsbly NEVER reach 60
> mph
>>> on
>>> 30 kw, and it couldn't tow a trailer up a driveway.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Phil
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 5:05 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: full size truck conversion
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Assuming you don't have huge ammounts of money sitting
>>>>> around...commonly
>>>>> available motors and generators are going to be 80%-90% efficient.
>>>>> Towing a trailer requires lots of power, towing up hill requies
> HUGE
>>>>> ammounts of power.
>>>>>
>>>>> For simplicities sake, let's assume we only need 200 hp (at the
>>>>> wheels)
>>>>> to
>>>>> tow uphill. Let's also assume we are using the more affordable 80%
>>>>> eff
>>>>> motors/generators (this way we can keep the project under
> $100,000).
>>>>>
>>>>> So 200 hp at the wheels requires about 190KW input power to the
>>>>> motor/controller. To generate 190kw requires about 320 hp
> mechanical
>>>>> input to the generator.
>>>>>
>>>>> So instead of needing a 200 hp motor we need a 320 hp motor, plus
> huge
>>>>> generator and a huge electric motor.
>>>>>
>>>>> Normal hybrids would use a smaller motor/generator and get the
> extra
>>>>> power
>>>>> from batteries. This would work if you never had to climb a hill
> that
>>>>> took longer than about 5 minutes to get to the top, and didn't need
> to
>>>>> climb another hill for at least and hour or two. That's a pretty
> rare
>>>>> circumstance if you are towing any distance.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Army had a hybrid Hummer developer back in the 90s. It made a
> lot
>>>>> of
>>>>> improvements over the normal hummer, better mileage, power, etc.
>>>>> It also used $150,000 worth of high efficiency motors/generators,
> and
>>>>> it
>>>>> weighed so much that it only had enough cargo capacity left for a
>>>>> couple
>>>>> soldiers and their personal gear. It had virtually no towing
>>>>> capacity.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Stuart, Peter and the group,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Given the weight problem of batteries as the sole source of power
> for
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> pickup truck, what about a diesel-electric generator + batteries
> as a
>>>>>> power source? (Basically a diesel hybrid) I know that
> Toyota/Hino
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> been operating light trucks in Japan with this power train
> starting
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> 2001. All I get is a stone wall when I ask Toyota/Hino about
> them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My real question is:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Would a diesel-electric hybrid truck along the lines of a 1/2 or
> 3/4
>>>>>> ton
>>>>>> pickup be feasible as a tow vehicle for a travel trailer?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> J.J. Hayden
>>>>>> Long time lurker
>>>>>>
>>>>>> J.J. Hayden
>>>>>> http://home.earthlink.net/~jjhayden
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of
> legalistic
>>>>> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do
>>>>> whatever
>>>>> I
>>>>> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your
>>>>> long
>>>>> legalistic signature is void.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of
> legalistic
>>> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do
> whatever
>>> I
>>> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your
> long
>>> legalistic signature is void.
>>
>>
>
>
>
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
-How badly was it damaged?
Kind of bad, not good for someone trying this as a first time deal.
It needs a right fender, radiator, ac cond, fan, rad support, ac
comp. headlights, bumper, airbags, seat belts hood and a bunch of
little ICE stuff. Good news is it runs, and the EV part is fine.
-What kind of wreck? (head on, I guess?)
Yep, on the passenger side.
-How did you get it? from a Salvage yard, or from "someone you know
at an
insurance company?"
I shop insurance auctions. Here's my problem, I buy something as a
glider for an EV and then like the "challenge" of getting it running
as an ICE, because many of these vehicles are not hurt very bad. Many
are, but some are not. I try to buy the ones that are not.
BTW, I got the title today and the insurance estimate was 19,000 to
repair it. Most of this was body work with all parts at retail----NOT
FRAME WORK! I have been shopping parts on line and will be into parts
about $3k.
After this challenge, I will definitely do another one, with an eye
towards the "challenge" of making it a pure EV.
This one has to be a daily driver for long distance (AND my wife paid
for it ;^) ).
Tom in warm Maine
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I handle shifting a little different in my Dakota EV.
I let off of the accelerator then move the shifter out of the gear that it
was in. I then gently move it to the gear that I need it to be in without
forcing it to go in. If I gently nudge the gear lever into the next gear as
the motor slows down, the transmission will slip into the right gear by
itself. I do not force anything, I just wait until the motor and the
transmission is close enough to the correct rpm's to allow the shifter to
slip into the next gear. I know that this is not speed shifting but then I
am not racing up the street either. If I need to shift faster than this
then I use the clutch. I use this method when I am not in a hurry which is
most of the time. There is no grinding of gears if I wait until the
transmission is at the proper rpm's. It actually seems to drive smoother
when I use this method instead of using the clutch. But it is nice for me
to have both options.
Freddie.
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Kane [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 4:24 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Clutch
Also you are likely to wear out the syncros more quickly.
However, don't be tempted to "speed-shift" by using the throttle to
match rpm between gears unless you know you can do it without
over-revving the motor (cause it will go blooie.) Best IMO would be
some species of circuitry in your motor controller to sense and keep
track of gate states (i.e. out of 1st, into 2nd, etc) and
automagically match rpm to speed in the new gear while between gates.
I have not the slightest idea how to do this however, nor have I heard
from anyone else about it.
On 6/18/07, Michael Wendell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > So heres the deal..If I bolt my Motor up to the shaft
> > coming out of the Transmission.
> ...
> > I will no longer have a clutch.
> > And to shift gears.. What ??
> > I turn the motor speed down and just throw the
> > stick shift into the next gear?
> >
> > Is that right
>
> pretty much exactly.
>
> 1. lift your foot off of the accelerator pedal, motor simply turns with
the
> rotation of the car.
>
> 2. push stick shift out of gear, motor spins down to zero.
>
> 3. select new gear with stick shift, syncros in transmission spin up the
> motor to the new speed of the transmission input shaft. these syncros are
> normally used to spin up the weight of the transmission's moving parts and
> the clucth, so you're putting alittle more stress on them since they're
now
> spinning up the motor.
>
> 4. foot back on the accelerator. go zoom.
>
> as i hear though, it's definitely slower than shifting with a clutch.
>
> m.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is in fact the technique I meant when I said
"speed-shifting". I know it's probably incorrect but that's what I
have been accustomed to call this method of clutchless shifting. I'm
not surprised that you have had success with this method, upshifting
under these conditions is relatively easy. It's down-shifting that
represents a problem (if you have no clutch) because ideally the motor
should be revved to match rpms with the new (lower) gear, which I
suspect is tough to do without overspeeding the motor while it's
unloaded. Of course this applies mainly to DC motors AFAIK.
On 6/18/07, Freddie Hartsell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I handle shifting a little different in my Dakota EV.
I let off of the accelerator then move the shifter out of the gear that it
was in. I then gently move it to the gear that I need it to be in without
forcing it to go in. If I gently nudge the gear lever into the next gear as
the motor slows down, the transmission will slip into the right gear by
itself. I do not force anything, I just wait until the motor and the
transmission is close enough to the correct rpm's to allow the shifter to
slip into the next gear. I know that this is not speed shifting but then I
am not racing up the street either. If I need to shift faster than this
then I use the clutch. I use this method when I am not in a hurry which is
most of the time. There is no grinding of gears if I wait until the
transmission is at the proper rpm's. It actually seems to drive smoother
when I use this method instead of using the clutch. But it is nice for me
to have both options.
Freddie.
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Kane [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 4:24 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Clutch
Also you are likely to wear out the syncros more quickly.
However, don't be tempted to "speed-shift" by using the throttle to
match rpm between gears unless you know you can do it without
over-revving the motor (cause it will go blooie.) Best IMO would be
some species of circuitry in your motor controller to sense and keep
track of gate states (i.e. out of 1st, into 2nd, etc) and
automagically match rpm to speed in the new gear while between gates.
I have not the slightest idea how to do this however, nor have I heard
from anyone else about it.
On 6/18/07, Michael Wendell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > So heres the deal..If I bolt my Motor up to the shaft
> > coming out of the Transmission.
> ...
> > I will no longer have a clutch.
> > And to shift gears.. What ??
> > I turn the motor speed down and just throw the
> > stick shift into the next gear?
> >
> > Is that right
>
> pretty much exactly.
>
> 1. lift your foot off of the accelerator pedal, motor simply turns with
the
> rotation of the car.
>
> 2. push stick shift out of gear, motor spins down to zero.
>
> 3. select new gear with stick shift, syncros in transmission spin up the
> motor to the new speed of the transmission input shaft. these syncros are
> normally used to spin up the weight of the transmission's moving parts and
> the clucth, so you're putting alittle more stress on them since they're
now
> spinning up the motor.
>
> 4. foot back on the accelerator. go zoom.
>
> as i hear though, it's definitely slower than shifting with a clutch.
>
> m.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I shift the same way when I down shift. Let's say that I am going to make a
left turn just ahead. I let off of the pedal and let the truck slow down on
it own as much as possible. I use the brakes very little because I have
learned to anticipate how much I need to let the truck slow down before I
make the turn. Just before I make the turn I take the shifter out of gear
and then while I am making the turn I down shift into either 2nd or 3rd
depending on the road and how fast I make the turn. Again I do not force
the gear change I allow the transmission to shift when it is ready. As I
have told my wife, you just have to learn how to do this. I am teaching her
how to drive the truck so that she can drive it to work. I seldom use the
clutch any more.
Freddie.
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Kane [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 5:50 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Clutch
This is in fact the technique I meant when I said
"speed-shifting". I know it's probably incorrect but that's what I
have been accustomed to call this method of clutchless shifting. I'm
not surprised that you have had success with this method, upshifting
under these conditions is relatively easy. It's down-shifting that
represents a problem (if you have no clutch) because ideally the motor
should be revved to match rpms with the new (lower) gear, which I
suspect is tough to do without overspeeding the motor while it's
unloaded. Of course this applies mainly to DC motors AFAIK.
On 6/18/07, Freddie Hartsell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I handle shifting a little different in my Dakota EV.
>
> I let off of the accelerator then move the shifter out of the gear that it
> was in. I then gently move it to the gear that I need it to be in without
> forcing it to go in. If I gently nudge the gear lever into the next gear
as
> the motor slows down, the transmission will slip into the right gear by
> itself. I do not force anything, I just wait until the motor and the
> transmission is close enough to the correct rpm's to allow the shifter to
> slip into the next gear. I know that this is not speed shifting but then
I
> am not racing up the street either. If I need to shift faster than this
> then I use the clutch. I use this method when I am not in a hurry which
is
> most of the time. There is no grinding of gears if I wait until the
> transmission is at the proper rpm's. It actually seems to drive smoother
> when I use this method instead of using the clutch. But it is nice for me
> to have both options.
>
> Freddie.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Kane [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 4:24 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Clutch
>
> Also you are likely to wear out the syncros more quickly.
> However, don't be tempted to "speed-shift" by using the throttle to
> match rpm between gears unless you know you can do it without
> over-revving the motor (cause it will go blooie.) Best IMO would be
> some species of circuitry in your motor controller to sense and keep
> track of gate states (i.e. out of 1st, into 2nd, etc) and
> automagically match rpm to speed in the new gear while between gates.
> I have not the slightest idea how to do this however, nor have I heard
> from anyone else about it.
>
> On 6/18/07, Michael Wendell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > So heres the deal..If I bolt my Motor up to the shaft
> > > coming out of the Transmission.
> > ...
> > > I will no longer have a clutch.
> > > And to shift gears.. What ??
> > > I turn the motor speed down and just throw the
> > > stick shift into the next gear?
> > >
> > > Is that right
> >
> > pretty much exactly.
> >
> > 1. lift your foot off of the accelerator pedal, motor simply turns with
> the
> > rotation of the car.
> >
> > 2. push stick shift out of gear, motor spins down to zero.
> >
> > 3. select new gear with stick shift, syncros in transmission spin up the
> > motor to the new speed of the transmission input shaft. these syncros
are
> > normally used to spin up the weight of the transmission's moving parts
and
> > the clucth, so you're putting alittle more stress on them since they're
> now
> > spinning up the motor.
> >
> > 4. foot back on the accelerator. go zoom.
> >
> > as i hear though, it's definitely slower than shifting with a clutch.
> >
> > m.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Kert and All,
Here's a more detailed piece below.
If I read it right, most EV's will get a $7500
tax credit on new EV's and many conversions thought those
may be needed to be a certified kit.
Interesting is the $400/kwhr credit for
batteries above 2.5kwhr! Since lead GC batts are about 1.4
kwhr at the 20 hr rate so use it too subsidize the rest of
the EV!
If TS or other Li manufacturer gets it
together and warranty their products, they could sell one
hell of a lot of batteries!!
If it goes thru like this, which is doubtful
the exact wording will pass but something like it probably
will, would drop the price of the Freedom EV from $13k down
to $5.5k!! I may have to raise my prices ;^D
Like I said before, it's time for list
members to seriously think about building EV's for a
living!!
Jerry Dycus
US Senators Introduce Bill to Promote Plug-In Electric Drive
Vehicles, Including Plug-In Conversions
18 June 2007
US Senate Finance Committee members Senators Maria Cantwell
(D-WA) and Orrin Hatch (R-UT), and Senator Barack Obama
(D-IL) have introduced a bill to support the development of
commercially viable plug-in electric drive vehicles (PEDVs),
including pure battery-electric, plug-in hybrid electric,
and plug-in fuel cell vehicles.
The billthe Fuel Reduction using Electrons to End
Dependence On the Mideast Act of 2007, or FREEDOM ACT
(S.1617)would provide four significant tax incentives:
A tax credit for consumers who purchase plug-in electric or
plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. Freedom Plug-in Credits
would cover the consumer purchase of vehicles which use
batteries and which plug into the electric grid for at least
part of their power. This would include plug-in electrics,
plug-in hybrids, and others.
The amount of the credit is a $2,000 base plus $400 for each
kilowatt hour of traction battery pack capacity in excess of
2.5 kWh, with a cap of $7,500 for passenger vehicles of up
to 10,000 pounds. A GEM (gasoline-ethanol-methanol)
flex-fuel plug-in or a plug-in vehicle warranted by its
manufacturer to run on biodiesel receives an extra $150.
The same is true for heavier duty vehicles, except that the
caps are scaled up for each vehicle weight class and range
from $10,000 to $20,000.
A tax credit through the end of 2010, for consumers who
convert their existing hybrid electric vehicles to high
quality plug-in hybrid vehicles. The credit is either the
amount calculated as above (with a $4,000 cap), or 50% of
the cost of the conversion pack, whichever is less. Only
kits that are of a standard configuration, mass-produced,
and certified by NHTSA would qualify for a Freedom
Conversion Credit.
First-year expensing for the US manufacture of plug-in
vehicles and of major components of plug-in vehicles, such
as batteries, electric motors, and electronic controllers;
and
A tax credit for electric utilities that provide rebates to
customers who buy plug-in vehicles. The amount of the
government reimbursement would be based on the rate of
greenhouse gas emissions for each utility.
With the rapid industrialization of countries like India and
China, the demand for gasoline is unprecedented, and
thats translated into higher costs at the pump. Were
already feeling the pain of that, and itll get worse
unless we start shifting our transportation sector away from
liquid fuels and on to electrons.
Sen. Hatch
US Representative Lloyd Doggett (D-TX) has introduced
similar legislation (H.R. 1331) in the House (earlier post),
and expects the Ways and Means Committee to consider it by
the end of the month.
(A hat-tip to Joe!)
Resources:
S.1617
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Make sure you keep and mark the Start/Run ignition wires as you may want the to
control the powering up of your controller.
I kept the 12V starting solenoid just in case I needed to switch in some heavy
12V loads.
Keep the starter motor to put in your electric scooter project.
The radiator may be useful for a condenser for a bio-diesel manufacturing plant.
If the fan is heavy duty you can use it for a lift fan for an electric
hovercraft.
As far as the engine parts go, you could try to sell it whole or part it out.
I just wanted to get mine out of the garage so Iput it up on Craigslist for
free.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, June 18, 2007 11:03 am
Subject: Engine parts to keep?
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Hey all,
> I am afraid I am not very knowledgeable about engines :) and I am
> going to sell my functioning ICE but am not sure what stuff is
> important to keep?
> I will be retaining the clutch and using a water heater to replace
> the heat form the engine for my conversion.
>
> Thanks,
> Tehben
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know this car has been touted as vapourware many a times on this list
however this exciting mini-report came up on our local BBC news bulletin
tonight.
Doesn't go into that great a technical detail, but I assume a lot of it is
currently trade secrets.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_6760000/newsid_6765200/6765299.stm?b
w=bb&mp=wm
Hopefully the link will work outside the UK, not sure if these are
restricted to UK viewers only.
For those who haven't read about it already, here's a brief news release
intro:
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html
Will be great to see it running when they've finished the prototype in the
summer!
Si.
___________________________________________________________
Now you can scan emails quickly with a reading pane. Get the new Yahoo! Mail.
http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found a few parts that were saleable on Ebay but a lot were not in demand.
my 2.5L V6 is not real popular. It is a great idea to keep all the
electronic sensors and not cut off the wire harness until you are sure you
don't need them. The crank position sensor can be used for rpm sensing and
others may have use. I just plugged them back into their connector and have
been cutting off the ones I don't need more recently. I have to reuse some
if I want my tachometer and speedometer to work again.
I got about $5 for my radiator at the aluminum recycling plant with the
tanks taken off and a lot of other aluminum parts like the cylinder heads
got me quite a few bucks.
Mark Ward
"Saabrina" World's first NG Saab EV
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "MIKE WILLMON" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: Engine parts to keep?
Make sure you keep and mark the Start/Run ignition wires as you may want
the to control the powering up of your controller.
I kept the 12V starting solenoid just in case I needed to switch in some
heavy 12V loads.
Keep the starter motor to put in your electric scooter project.
The radiator may be useful for a condenser for a bio-diesel manufacturing
plant.
If the fan is heavy duty you can use it for a lift fan for an electric
hovercraft.
As far as the engine parts go, you could try to sell it whole or part it
out. I just wanted to get mine out of the garage so Iput it up on
Craigslist for free.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, June 18, 2007 11:03 am
Subject: Engine parts to keep?
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Hey all,
I am afraid I am not very knowledgeable about engines :) and I am
going to sell my functioning ICE but am not sure what stuff is
important to keep?
I will be retaining the clutch and using a water heater to replace
the heat form the engine for my conversion.
Thanks,
Tehben
--- End Message ---
