EV Digest 6936
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EVLN(CO rear wheel EMIS hybrid conversion business)
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Understanding Motors II
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Side or top mount
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Side or top mount
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Side or top mount
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Milestones: Carbon fiber and blogs
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Side or top mount
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Ultimate magnetic motor design
by Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: 24 Volt Solenoid
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: red hot chili motor is here
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Cheap
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Understanding Motors II
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: thundersky cells for cheap, prices
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: thundersky cells for cheap, prices
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: charging w/ one battery missing
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 24 Volt Solenoid
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Ultimate magnetic motor design
by "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Make it
by "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Side or top mount
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: charging w/ one battery missing
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Understanding Motors II
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: [EV] Re: Side or top mount
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Ultimate magnetic motor design
by Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Relay on Vacuum pump
by "Deanne Mott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hmmmm. Interesting idea. I wondering why it can only be used with
automatic transmission vehicals?
On 6/23/07, Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Looks like the News Guys need an EV education. At
least they added a website link for the real story.
The conversion needs a 48 to 72 volt battery pack that
will require a charger and will plug in. Won't operate
with just the Aux Battery. At least is was a good Plug
for Netgain and their newest products.
--- bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> EVLN(CO rear wheel EMIS hybrid conversion business)
> [The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public
> EV
> informational purposes. Contact publication for
> reprint rights.]
> --- {EVangel}
>
http://www.themountainmail.com/main.asp?SectionID=19&SubSectionID=75&ArticleID=11207
> Salida business taps into hybrid vehicle market
> Friday, June 15, 2007
>
> As a certified dealer and installer of EMIS, Pete
> Hansen and his
> partner Mike Jones at Salida Conversions retrofit
> rear wheel
> drive 1996 and newer vehicles with an electric
> assist hybrid
> system.
>
> The result is a vehicle that reduces gas consumption
> an average
> of 26 percent, Hansen said.
>
> As described on the business Web site,
> www.salidaconversions.com,
> EMIS is a high torque, high powered electric motor
> that attaches
> to a vehicle drive train and plugs into the onboard
> computer.
>
> It works particularly well in city driving and up
> and down hills,
> he said, adding the worse gasoline mileage a vehicle
> gets, the
> better the system works.
>
> To install the system, the drive shaft is removed
> and the
> electrical assist system is attached. It is then
> replaced and the
> system is wired into the vehicle's onboard computer,
> taking a
> maximum of three days, he said.
>
> The electric motor is wired to the vehicle battery
> and doesn't
> need to be plugged in for recharging.
>
> Cost of the system ranges from $5,000-$7,000 and
> Hansen estimated
> the system could pay for itself in gasoline savings
> within 24
> months.
>
> In addition, a Colorado income tax credit is
> available for
> vehicles converted to use alternative fuel.
>
> Those interested can also purchase the system from
> Salida
> Conversions and install it themselves.
>
> Hansen will discuss the hybrid conversion and full
> electrical
> conversion technology during question and answer
> sessions from
> 2:30-4:30 p.m. Saturday at Bongo Billy's Salida Café
> and from 11
> a.m. to 1 p.m. June 23 at Mothers in Buena Vista.
>
> Dates of other question and answer sessions are
> posted on the
> business Web site.
>
> More information is available from Hansen at
> 539-6212.
>
> Content (c) 2007 The Mountain Mail
> Software (c) 1998-2007 1up! Software, All Rights
> Reserved
>
> ===
>
> http://www.salidaconversions.com/emis.htm
>
> -
>
>
>
>
> Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
>
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & AFV newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> ===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
> : MEPIS Linux & WiFi powered :
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.
> Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.
>
http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________Ready
for the edge of your seat?
Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/
--
Zeke Yewdall
Chief Electrical Engineer
Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company
Cell: 720.352.2508
Office: 303.459.0177
FAX documents to: 720.269.1240
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.cosunflower.com
CoSEIA Certified
Certified BP Solar Installer
National Association of Home Builders
Quotable Quote
"In the dark of the moon, in flying snow,
in the dead of winter, war spreading,
families dying, the world in danger,
I walk the rocky hillside
sowing clover."
Wendell Berry
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Rob
Any way you can grab some pics of the motor and email
me them. I could give you a good idea of whether it'd
be good as an EV motor or not.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I use both the auto post type with the top stud at the same time. I found
using a battery clamp around the post by it self, makes the lead post pucker
out the top of the battery clamp like a mushroom reducing the diameter of
the post.
Using the stud only on some batteries, which are suppose to with stand 95 to
105 inch pounds of torque will pull out after a while. I even found them
pulling out at 75 inch pounds. I found that some of the 6 volt Exide
batteries way back in the 80's had a L or T shape head on the stud so it
would not turn and pull out like a standard hex head will they have today.
So, I use a battery clamp around the post, plus install a washer and nut on
the stud which also puts downward pressure on the battery clamp plus puts a
internal pressure against the inside of the battery clamp surface. Sometime
like how a concrete stud anchor is install and held in.
Install this type of connection back in 2002 at about 10 foot lbs and they
are still holding up today.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 12:00 AM
Subject: Re: Side or top mount
> On 22 Jun 2007 at 21:54, Zeke Yewdall wrote:
>
> > I prefer the 5/16" threaded studs on top myself. Never seen the side
> > mounts on any EV batteries other than the yellow tops. And the
> > regular automotive lead posts are not too good -- they squeeze out
> > over time and get loose.
>
> You're going to get LOTS of argument on these points. ;-)
>
> Most here deem the top studs unreliable. They are subject to lead creep
> (the studs can literally pull right out). This is no doubt troublesome
> for
> high current EVs, though I've used them with 400 amp controllers without
> any
> problem. The same folks who down the threaded posts are pretty well sold
> on
> standard automotive posts.
>
> Personally, I prefer L posts for golf car batteries. That's not an
> especially popular view on the EVDL, however.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
> the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why? Those seem to be very nice. Last time I bought batteries, the
Trojans didn't come with them though, only the Deka (East Penn) ones.
Z
Personally, I prefer L posts for golf car batteries. That's not an
especially popular view on the EVDL, however.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are these the arrangement with the threaded stud sticking out of the
top of the lead post, or with the stud next to the lead post? It
sounds like an elegant solution, but I'm just trying to wrap my brain
around exactly how it works
Z
On 6/23/07, Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I use both the auto post type with the top stud at the same time. I found
using a battery clamp around the post by it self, makes the lead post pucker
out the top of the battery clamp like a mushroom reducing the diameter of
the post.
Using the stud only on some batteries, which are suppose to with stand 95 to
105 inch pounds of torque will pull out after a while. I even found them
pulling out at 75 inch pounds. I found that some of the 6 volt Exide
batteries way back in the 80's had a L or T shape head on the stud so it
would not turn and pull out like a standard hex head will they have today.
So, I use a battery clamp around the post, plus install a washer and nut on
the stud which also puts downward pressure on the battery clamp plus puts a
internal pressure against the inside of the battery clamp surface. Sometime
like how a concrete stud anchor is install and held in.
Install this type of connection back in 2002 at about 10 foot lbs and they
are still holding up today.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 12:00 AM
Subject: Re: Side or top mount
> On 22 Jun 2007 at 21:54, Zeke Yewdall wrote:
>
> > I prefer the 5/16" threaded studs on top myself. Never seen the side
> > mounts on any EV batteries other than the yellow tops. And the
> > regular automotive lead posts are not too good -- they squeeze out
> > over time and get loose.
>
> You're going to get LOTS of argument on these points. ;-)
>
> Most here deem the top studs unreliable. They are subject to lead creep
> (the studs can literally pull right out). This is no doubt troublesome
> for
> high current EVs, though I've used them with 400 amp controllers without
> any
> problem. The same folks who down the threaded posts are pretty well sold
> on
> standard automotive posts.
>
> Personally, I prefer L posts for golf car batteries. That's not an
> especially popular view on the EVDL, however.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
> the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
--
Zeke Yewdall
Chief Electrical Engineer
Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company
Cell: 720.352.2508
Office: 303.459.0177
FAX documents to: 720.269.1240
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.cosunflower.com
CoSEIA Certified
Certified BP Solar Installer
National Association of Home Builders
Quotable Quote
"In the dark of the moon, in flying snow,
in the dead of winter, war spreading,
families dying, the world in danger,
I walk the rocky hillside
sowing clover."
Wendell Berry
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Amy and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Amy DeMaagd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Milestones: Carbon fiber and blogs
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 00:56:14 -0400
>Remember me? The snotty little girl with big dreams? Well,
>I'm back, and I have a blog. Ish. It's mediocre, but it'll
>do for now. I'll build a real website...uh...someday.
>
>http://www.electricspritejournals.blogspot.com
>
>Also, I pulled the trunk lid off my donor car and laid up a
>compsite part from it. There was only enough carbon fiber
>lying around to do the top layer, so the structural backing
>and bottom layer of the skin are plain old fiberglass, but
>this still is a more than 60% weight savings(also despite
>being excessively generous with epoxy. Lesson learned.).
I see you have fallen for the CF hype. CF is rarely
that much lighter that medium tech FG or Kevlar and a combo
of FG/Kevlar makes a much stronger body part at much less
money.
For instance if your CF is woven cloth, it loses it's
one advantage, stiffness as it's now stiff springs as the
strands are no longer in columm!! Kind of defeats it's
purpose. But even done without being woven, it can't be used
with other materials like FG along the same loadline because
it will take all the load until it breaks then only the FG
is left for strength purposes anyways. So for any given load
direction, use one or the other.
You should also lay up a CF sample, let it cure, then
cut and break it to see if your epoxy is actually soaking in
as CF does not wet out easily though looks like it does.
Kevlar cloth is tough as you can get, very hard to
punch through, abrade so with light FG, makes a saafer great
body layup for curved panels. Flatter panels need a core.
BTW you might find these parts are already made for
racers and you might be able to beg some. Contact you local
SCCA, road racing clubs as they use to be raced all the time
and probably still do.
What you should do is make the new body more aero by
getting or building a hardtop which was a common option on
them. The rear of it needs to be shaped more aero that the
optional ones need mods. Look at the Porsche 914 cabin top
for inspiration. This alone can reduce your aero drag 25% vs
a convertible!!! Or you could make a fastback version, easy
to do from a flat panel mold, then bend to shape.
>If I can get my paws on enough carbon fiber to do the whole
>car without fiberglass, I'll have to do this part over, but
>it is still a pretty exciting milestone.
>Although, since carbon fiber and aluminum experience some
>type of corrosion, this method may be better. Of course, so
>do aluminum and steel and that didn't stop Chevy from using
>the combination in some Corvette parts. I will never lose
>the visual of seeing aluminum crumble like feta cheese...
A good epoxy solves the CF/Alum corrosion problem.
>
>I feel somehow guilty that this post does not in any way
>include anything technical. Am I doing something wrong if I
>do not speak in variables?
Getting EV's on the road is what we are about so
difinently on topic. You picked a good starting point
vehicle. If you can redo the for, aft body in composites,
thus light and great aero, you will have a great EV able to
beat most other EVs in range, speed for a much lower cost.
Did you mention you had Li batts? What type, how many?
If you have enough, this could be an outstanding EV but even
with lead, it could be great. Even if not enough, you could
do a hybrid pack with what you have.
Good luck with your project, if we can help, ask,
Jerry Dycus
>
>
>May all of your contacts not corrode, and your batteries
>experience unnaturally long life.
>-Amy
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The studs are the ones that come out of the top of the battery post.
The side post type of connector uses a 3/8 bolt which only goes in 5/16 of a
inch into this type of connection. If you go any further in, you could
punch a hole into the battery. These type of side connections are only to
be hand tighten with a a very small box end wrench, so you do not over
torque them.
Also, tried to arrange side terminal batteries in a certain order, so you
can connect them together without any head of the bolts touching or pressing
against the next battery, plus trying to get a battery cable install between
group of batteries if they are install in a enclose battery box.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 6:59 AM
Subject: Re: Side or top mount
> Are these the arrangement with the threaded stud sticking out of the
> top of the lead post, or with the stud next to the lead post? It
> sounds like an elegant solution, but I'm just trying to wrap my brain
> around exactly how it works
> Z
>
> On 6/23/07, Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I use both the auto post type with the top stud at the same time. I
> > found
> > using a battery clamp around the post by it self, makes the lead post
> > pucker
> > out the top of the battery clamp like a mushroom reducing the diameter
> > of
> > the post.
> >
> > Using the stud only on some batteries, which are suppose to with stand
> > 95 to
> > 105 inch pounds of torque will pull out after a while. I even found
> > them
> > pulling out at 75 inch pounds. I found that some of the 6 volt Exide
> > batteries way back in the 80's had a L or T shape head on the stud so it
> > would not turn and pull out like a standard hex head will they have
> > today.
> >
> > So, I use a battery clamp around the post, plus install a washer and nut
> > on
> > the stud which also puts downward pressure on the battery clamp plus
> > puts a
> > internal pressure against the inside of the battery clamp surface.
> > Sometime
> > like how a concrete stud anchor is install and held in.
> >
> > Install this type of connection back in 2002 at about 10 foot lbs and
> > they
> > are still holding up today.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 12:00 AM
> > Subject: Re: Side or top mount
> >
> >
> > > On 22 Jun 2007 at 21:54, Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> > >
> > > > I prefer the 5/16" threaded studs on top myself. Never seen the
> > > > side
> > > > mounts on any EV batteries other than the yellow tops. And the
> > > > regular automotive lead posts are not too good -- they squeeze out
> > > > over time and get loose.
> > >
> > > You're going to get LOTS of argument on these points. ;-)
> > >
> > > Most here deem the top studs unreliable. They are subject to lead
> > > creep
> > > (the studs can literally pull right out). This is no doubt
> > > troublesome
> > > for
> > > high current EVs, though I've used them with 400 amp controllers
> > > without
> > > any
> > > problem. The same folks who down the threaded posts are pretty well
> > > sold
> > > on
> > > standard automotive posts.
> > >
> > > Personally, I prefer L posts for golf car batteries. That's not an
> > > especially popular view on the EVDL, however.
> > >
> > >
> > > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > > EV List Administrator
> > >
> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> > > or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > > Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> > > To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
> > > the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Zeke Yewdall
> Chief Electrical Engineer
> Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company
> Cell: 720.352.2508
> Office: 303.459.0177
> FAX documents to: 720.269.1240
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.cosunflower.com
>
> CoSEIA Certified
> Certified BP Solar Installer
> National Association of Home Builders
>
> Quotable Quote
>
> "In the dark of the moon, in flying snow,
> in the dead of winter, war spreading,
> families dying, the world in danger,
> I walk the rocky hillside
> sowing clover."
>
> Wendell Berry
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Working on it.Suddenly you don't sound like a troll anymore!
-----Original Message-----
>From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Jun 22, 2007 5:59 PM
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Ultimate magnetic motor design
>
>To get rid of commutators (wear) it has to be AC
>To maximize power to weight we have to minimize heat loss
>To minimize heat loss we need the power to come mostly through voltage
>since it has no loss and current has a lot
>To have the power channeled through voltage rather than current it has
>to be high phasevelocity/low torque (vis a vis work)
>To avoid high energy loss in gearing (both motive and regen) we need to
>avoid high gearing
>To avoid high gearing while having high phase veloctiy we need many
>phasecycles per revolution
>
>the ultimate magnetic motor must therefore be an AC motor with as many
>as possible phasecycles per revolution.
>perhaps a thin light weight high diameter disc motor with a few hundred
>phases (still only 2 or 3 phases but many copies around the circumference)
>
>sound about right?
>do such motors exist commercially?
>
>Dan
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, a solenoid is just a switch. You can only turn the power on or off. It
CAN be used to modulate speed by turning it on and off in succession just
like a speed controller does. It's just that a person is the one doing all
the controlling. For instance if you turn it on for 1 second and off for 2
seconds at a time it will go slower than if you turn it on for 1 second and
off for 1 second at a time or constantly hold it on. Many kids toys are
geared slow enough that you don't really need any more control than this. I
have a nice little scooter that my kids ride that is setup this way. We
usually run it on either 36 or 24 volts. The only downside is a bit of a
jerk when they start.
damon
From: "Rob Hogenmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: "EV Discussion" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: 24 Volt Solenoid
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 06:28:20 -0500
Someone had mentioned I can use a Solenoid instead of Speed control for a
little kids four wheeler. If I hook up a 0-5ohm throttle to a solenoid will
it deliver a range of power instead of just off and on then?
God bless
_________________________________________________________________
Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the im Initiative now.
Its free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ouch, that does not look like something you will be able to ignore. My
guess is that Jim will have to ship you a new one. Fortunately it is the
type of thing he usually has laying around.
damon
From: Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: red hot chili motor is here
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 23:13:25 -0400
pictures of its different states... http://www.nn.cl/Autos/EV/Motor/
yes, it has a crack in the brush holder, courtesy of the trucker
that moved it from the airport to my office. I am asking Jim if I should
worry about it or just loosen the bolt and move it to where it should be
and leave it there, it looks like its not a stressed part...
anyway, I'll start converting soon, it seems. I now only need to make the
adapter and get dirty. I plan on joining the no-clutch league so the
adapter
should be simpler.
--
Eduardo K. |
http://www.carfun.cl | I'm white and nerdy
http://ev.nn.cl | Weird Al
|
_________________________________________________________________
PC Magazines 2007 editors choice for best Web mailaward-winning Windows
Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Tony Hwang wrote:
What are the ZL431 and LM138's?
Sorry; My fingers were typing faster than my brain :-)
The first should have been TL431 or ZT431.
Try ZTL431 or ZR431 for that second one. These are Zetex parts that cost
more than the TL431 but have some improvements.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Wilker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Is there anyway to calculate the current draw from the running
resistance of the motor (static resistance minus Back EMF)?
A motor is an electrical-to-mechanical converter. You can only predict
its electrical characteristics (voltage and current) when the mechanical
load is also specified.
The performance curves for motors are called "curves" for a reason; the
relationships are complicated, and not straight lines! You can
approximate these curves with an equation, but it won't be a simple
equation. For a permanent magnet DC motor (the simplest situation), the
equation is
I = (V-(KxS))/R
where I = current (in amps)
V = applied voltage (in volts)
K = a constant for that particular motor
S = speed (in RPM)
R = DC resistance of motor when not running (in ohms)
You can measure R by applying a low enough voltage so the motor does not
turn even with no load on its shaft, measure the current, and calculate
R = V/I. For example, if applying 0.1 volt to a motor makes it draw 1
amp without it turning, then R = 0.1/1 = 0.1 ohm.
You can measure K by applying voltage to the motor and measuring the
no-load RPM, and calculate K = V/S. For example, if 12v produces 4800
rpm, then K = 12/4800 = 0.0025.
Note that the speed has a *big* effect on current! If you applied 12v to
this motor, and spin it at 4800 rpm, the current is zero! That's because
KxS (the back-emf) exactly equals the applied voltage. But if you load
that motor down to 4700 rpm, the current becomes
I = (12 - (0.0025 x 4700))/ 0.1 = 2.5 amps.
The input power (12 volts x 2.5 amps) is being converted to mechancal
work on the shaft (plus a little heat, because the process isn't 100%
efficient).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Marty Hewes wrote:
Quite frankly, our market is a very risky market for anyone to deal
with, especially for a product like batteries that requires hard
won knowledge to properly apply.
I agree. Some of this risk is avoidable -- good data sheets can identify
what you can and cannot do with the product, and users can follow these
guidelines to minimize risk. If a customer follows the guidelines, and
the product fails, this is a legitimate warranty issue that should be
dealt with by the manufacturer.
But there are many times that customers go "outside the box", either
through ignorance (they don't know they shouldn't do that), or
deliberately (for experiments, or to win races). The manufacturer is not
responsible for failures under these circumstances.
With the Thundersky 90ah cells that started this discussion, there was
no question that the manufacturer was at fault. The cells never met
specs right from the very beginning. There was no way they could be
applied in any practical application. It was like ordering new tires,
and getting bald ones -- it's obvious that you didn't get what you paid for.
I'm just saying if I was going to warranty a fragile product for
the EV home builder, how could I warranty it yet protect myself
from losses due to mis-application.
Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
> Sell them in modules with a BMS on each, the BMS can record and log
> any warranty voiding abuse.
Saft sells nicads. They provide extensive data on how they should and
should not be applied. They also require buyers to submit detailed
descriptions of their battery management system (charging, watering,
cooling, etc.). This seems to have worked for them.
Since lithiums *require* a BMS, it would make sense for Thundersky to
provide one on every cell. It could be quite simple, and only intended
to settle warranty claims -- for example, just an internal fuse that
opens if the user draws or charges at excessive current, or battery
temperature ever exceeds X degrees. "Warranty void if fuse blows".
Or, it could be more complex, and so usable by the customer as his BMS.
They can certainly charge more for cells that include it, so it may
actually enhance revenues rather than cost them.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
john fisher wrote:
well I DID say someone would have to go to China and test them.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
What the outcome of such testing has to do with Thunder-sky policies?
I've worked for several companies that outsourced to China. Here's what
*didn't* work:
- Buy a Chinese part or product to replace whatever you were using.
Yes, it's cheaper; but it won't meet specs, the quality will be
bad, and warranty support nonexistent.
- Send your design/drawings to them, to build to your specs.
Now you'll get parts that actually fit; but you will have to test
them yourself. You will get lots of bad parts, and their only
"warranty" is that they will replace them with more untested parts.
- Send them your design, drawings, tooling, and test fixtures.
Now they will send tested parts that fit. But they now *own* the
design, and will sell it to anyone (including you competitors).
Here's what *did* work:
- Split the product up into smaller parts. Contract with different
Chinese companies to produce each part. Set up your own office in
China (ours was in Hong Kong), where your own people supervise
production (visit the factory regularly) and test each company's
parts. Your office only pays them when batches are tested and
approved.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley wrote:
Someone once told me that they shorted a bad cell by driving
galvanized deck screws down through the top and between the plates.
This created a situation with one 10 volt block in his car along with
the other 12 volt blocks. He said he ran it until the rest of the
batteries died.
I don't think galvanized steel screws would last long, but I've driven
stainless steel screws into a dead cell to deliberately short it. If you
drain and rinse out the acid, it lasted long enough for other cells to fail.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rob Hogenmiller wrote:
Someone had mentioned I can use a Solenoid instead of Speed control for
a little kids four wheeler. If I hook up a 0-5ohm throttle to a solenoid
will it deliver a range of power instead of just off and on then?
A potentiometer is a variable resistor. The controller's circuitry is
therefore set up to measure resistance.
A solenoid is a variable inductor. The controller needs to be designed
for this, with a circuit to measure inductance. You can't use an
inductive speed control with a controller designed for a resistive one.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What does "working on it" mean? Are you actually developing such motor?
Lon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 6:37 AM
Subject: Re: Ultimate magnetic motor design
Working on it.Suddenly you don't sound like a troll anymore!
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Jun 22, 2007 5:59 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Ultimate magnetic motor design
To get rid of commutators (wear) it has to be AC
To maximize power to weight we have to minimize heat loss
To minimize heat loss we need the power to come mostly through voltage
since it has no loss and current has a lot
To have the power channeled through voltage rather than current it has
to be high phasevelocity/low torque (vis a vis work)
To avoid high energy loss in gearing (both motive and regen) we need to
avoid high gearing
To avoid high gearing while having high phase veloctiy we need many
phasecycles per revolution
the ultimate magnetic motor must therefore be an AC motor with as many
as possible phasecycles per revolution.
perhaps a thin light weight high diameter disc motor with a few hundred
phases (still only 2 or 3 phases but many copies around the circumference)
sound about right?
do such motors exist commercially?
Dan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seeing how a controller is only a on off switch that has a frequency that
varries .. The faster it goes the faster you go ..
I am sure this can be reproduced without spending 700 bucks..
The question I need to know is at what rate dose the average controllers on
and off frequency change to and from.
In time sec .and How many time in a sec . To archive O to max speed
Mitchell
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--- Begin Message ---
On 23 Jun 2007 at 6:55, Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> Last time I bought batteries, the Trojans didn't come with
> [L-posts] though, only the Deka (East Penn) ones.
>
Trojan has gotten funny about posts in recent years. However, US Battery
will fit any battery with any post you want. I got L posts on the last
batch of 8-volters I ordered from them.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the clarification on the battery. I thought you meant you had
bypassed one of the cells.
It sounds like you are overcharging already. If you detected a sulfrous
smell, you've probably already trashed at least one battery. So, you
definitely shouldn't try to charge a pruned pack with your Zivan. Zivans
are smart, but not smart enough to be trained by the user. When it's time
to change voltage or battery type, they require professorial gurus who have
the sticks necessary to beat new ideas into them. ;-)
I would disconnect all the battery interconnects (series and parallel), give
each battery an individual full charge with a good automatic 12v charger,
then perform a load test on each. See how long they can sustain a 50 to 75
amp load. Get rid of the stinkers that can't produce at least 50% of their
manufacturer's spec in amp hours >at that rate< (not the 20h rate). See
what's left and then decide what to do.
IMO, every EV hobbyist should have a variable or programmable voltage
charger to deal with pruned packs. Programmable smart chargers like the
Brusa chargers are great for this, but expensive. If you can find someone
who will sell you one of the so-called Fair Radio chargers (simple multi-tap
DC supply, mil-surplus, sold by Fair Radio for $50 maybe 7-8 years ago)
you'll find it very useful. Being entirely manual however it will have to
be babysat - maybe not the best choice for someone with a couple of high-
maintenance kids. ;-)
Another possibility is to pick up a bunch of 12v individual ("modular")
automatic chargers. If you go this route be careful to verify that all
batteries are fully charged before driving. A failure in one charger can
cause you serious grief.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 23 Jun 2007 at 6:23, Rob Hogenmiller wrote:
> The one I'm eyeballing says 100amp continous and 300amps for 30seconds. So I
> had thought that means it draws 100amps continously?
The motor draws what your controller and battery let it draw, and what it
needs to move the load (your car).
More current => more torque. Also, more current => more heat. It's heat
that hurts the motor. Heat builds up in time. So the motor you describe
can deal with 100 amps for an indefinite period of time. You can allow it
to use 300 amps for up to 30 seconds before the heat builds up to a
dangerous (for its life) level.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> Trojan has gotten funny about posts in recent years. However, US Battery
> will fit any battery with any post you want. I got L posts on the last
> batch of 8-volters I ordered from them.
>
Do you have any contact in US bateries? down here I can get almost any
brand, except that and would like to be able to :)
--
Eduardo K. |
http://www.carfun.cl | Freedom's just another word
http://ev.nn.cl | for nothing left to lose.
|
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes. While Dan's analysis isn't exactly correct, this is the
first thing which he has written which isn't completely clueless.
I'd like to encourage him to continue in this line of
discussion and welcome him to to the list as a fellow developer
and ev (future?) driver.
.----Original Message-----
>From: Loni <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Jun 23, 2007 12:44 PM
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Re: Ultimate magnetic motor design
>
>What does "working on it" mean? Are you actually developing such motor?
>
>Lon
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 6:37 AM
>Subject: Re: Ultimate magnetic motor design
>
>
>>
>> Working on it.Suddenly you don't sound like a troll anymore!
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>Sent: Jun 22, 2007 5:59 PM
>>>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>>Subject: Ultimate magnetic motor design
>>>
>>>To get rid of commutators (wear) it has to be AC
>>>To maximize power to weight we have to minimize heat loss
>>>To minimize heat loss we need the power to come mostly through voltage
>>>since it has no loss and current has a lot
>>>To have the power channeled through voltage rather than current it has
>>>to be high phasevelocity/low torque (vis a vis work)
>>>To avoid high energy loss in gearing (both motive and regen) we need to
>>>avoid high gearing
>>>To avoid high gearing while having high phase veloctiy we need many
>>>phasecycles per revolution
>>>
>>>the ultimate magnetic motor must therefore be an AC motor with as many
>>>as possible phasecycles per revolution.
>>>perhaps a thin light weight high diameter disc motor with a few hundred
>>>phases (still only 2 or 3 phases but many copies around the circumference)
>>>
>>>sound about right?
>>>do such motors exist commercially?
>>>
>>>Dan
>>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My vacuum pump has been acting wacky lately, intermitantly not running
when it should. Wiggling the relay attached to the pump would make it
work, so we cleaned contacts, recrimped a wire, etc and it is better.
However, it's not quite running the way it ran before. We're thinking
the relay could use replacing, but I can't figure out where to find
one. I checked the websites of EVparts and Electro Automotive and
didn't find it. The relay has 4 terminals labeled 30, 85, 86, and 87.
Thanks for any tips - De
--- End Message ---
