EV Digest 6938
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
by "Jim, Saturn Guy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
by "Pat Galliher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Make it
by "Rob Hogenmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: charging w/ one battery missing
by Tony Furr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Milestones: Carbon fiber and blogs
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
by "Al" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Make it
by "John A. Evans - N0HJ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: charging w/ one battery missing
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
by "Pat Galliher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Jet powered C5
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Manly EV's, RE: EV are for girls blog
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Make it
by "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Make it
by "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Make it
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: 55mph
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Jet powered C5
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Manly EV's, RE: EV are for girls blog
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: 55mph
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) RE: Milestones: Carbon fiber and blogs
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Jim,
There are a number of existing computer system UPS that use between 120v and
132v DC and convert it to AC. It would be a very simple matter to connect
one to the battery pack of your car. I'm an electronics recycler and also
new to the forum. I have (literally) tons of stuff that comes through my
place that I wonder if it could be put to good use on an EV. The UPSs that I
get all have deep cycle batteries in them, but I think they are too small to
be of any use. The largest I've noticed are 24 AH rated. Most are 7-12 AH
rated. But it would seem some of the electronics could be used for EV
projects.
Pat
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jim, Saturn Guy
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 6:34 PM
To: EVlist
Subject: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
Hello all. I just joined the list and have spent hours reading through some
of the archives. I would like to pick your brains a bit and ask if anyone
has built a DC/AC converter for an Electric Vehicle. I converted a 94
Saturn SL1 and have been driving it since January of this year. I would
like to build an on-board DC/AC converter that runs off the 126 volt pack
of my EV and puts out 110v ac to run vital parts of the house in the event
of power outage. All that energy stored and only have it for the EV feels
limited. So, has anyone built or bought one? I've found nothing out there
as of yet, but the web feels almost as vast as space its self. If you don't
have a specific spot you're aiming for, you could be out there wandering
aimlessly for ever. Thank you to whom ever reads this post. I know all of
your time is important and I do appreciate it.
Thank you
Jim Dawson
---------------------------------
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I've been checking out these speed controllers for electric vehicles. I'm
somewhat dissapointed in what I've come across. When I raced shifterkarts we
had speed controllers for our vehicles we could select A, B, C, or D
programs each setting could be programmed on a computer to deliver different
types of power curves.
http://www.swedetechracingengines.com/parts_accessories/pictures/spi_548x480-047c.jpg
I think they were around $250
I have messaged the gentleman that makes them to see if he would have
interest in building them for EV's.
God bless
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 12:20 PM
Subject: RE: Make it
From: "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Make it
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 13:00:11 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Seeing how a controller is only a on off switch that has a frequency that
varries .. The faster it goes the faster you go ..
I am sure this can be reproduced without spending 700 bucks..
The question I need to know is at what rate dose the average controllers
on
and off frequency change to and from.
In time sec .and How many time in a sec . To archive O to max speed
Most controllers ( the Curtis C series is an exception) use a constant
switching frequency. The duty cycle ( % of the time that the "switch" is
closed) is varied to control the power to the motor. That is what controls
how fast you go.
Switching hundreds of amps at hundreds of volts reliably may be more
difficult ( and expensive) than you think.
If you succeed at building a good controller for less than $700, please
let us know.
Phil Marino
Mitchell
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Thanks for the helpful info.
When it's time
to change voltage or battery type, they require professorial gurus
who have
the sticks necessary to beat new ideas into them. ;-)
By type, do you mean Hawker vs. Optima or SLA vs. LiIon? Is it set
for a specific amp hour as well as voltage?
I would disconnect all the battery interconnects (series and
parallel), give
each battery an individual full charge with a good automatic 12v
charger,
then perform a load test on each. See how long they can sustain a
50 to 75
amp load. Get rid of the stinkers that can't produce at least 50%
of their
manufacturer's spec in amp hours >at that rate< (not the 20h
rate). See
what's left and then decide what to do.
I just bought a 500amp carbon pile load tester from amazon for
exactly that purpose. Pulling the batteries apart to test them is
going to be a nightmare. Some are buried in almost impossible
locations. I might have to lift the car and remove hem for the
bottom. Is there a way to load test without removing all the battery
connections? I guess the parallel connections of the pairs will make
that impossible anyway.
Another possibility is to pick up a bunch of 12v individual
("modular")
automatic chargers. If you go this route be careful to verify that
all
batteries are fully charged before driving. A failure in one
charger can
cause you serious grief.
An interesting option that I've pondered myself. Would this as
effective, efficient, etc. as running from the Zivans? Seeing as I
already have them I'm inclined to make them work. Plus finding 5
minutes in the day to spend on the EV can be a major challenge itself.
-t
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--- Begin Message ---
If you're running a DC-DC converter, for your
auxillary power to headlights, etc, then you could
feed that output to the battery input of a standard,
computer UPS which would then convert it to 120vac.
Sort of a round about way to do things, but it seems
good in theory.
Depending upon the amperage drawn off the 12volt
battery of your UPS, you'd need to make sure your DC
to DC converter could handle that amperage without
overheating, etc.
--- Pat Galliher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jim,
> There are a number of existing computer system UPS
> that use between 120v and
> 132v DC and convert it to AC. It would be a very
> simple matter to connect
> one to the battery pack of your car. I'm an
> electronics recycler and also
> new to the forum. I have (literally) tons of stuff
> that comes through my
> place that I wonder if it could be put to good use
> on an EV. The UPSs that I
> get all have deep cycle batteries in them, but I
> think they are too small to
> be of any use. The largest I've noticed are 24 AH
> rated. Most are 7-12 AH
> rated. But it would seem some of the electronics
> could be used for EV
> projects.
>
> Pat
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Jim, Saturn Guy
> Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 6:34 PM
> To: EVlist
> Subject: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
>
> Hello all. I just joined the list and have spent
> hours reading through some
> of the archives. I would like to pick your brains a
> bit and ask if anyone
> has built a DC/AC converter for an Electric Vehicle.
> I converted a 94
> Saturn SL1 and have been driving it since January of
> this year. I would
> like to build an on-board DC/AC converter that runs
> off the 126 volt pack
> of my EV and puts out 110v ac to run vital parts of
> the house in the event
> of power outage. All that energy stored and only
> have it for the EV feels
> limited. So, has anyone built or bought one? I've
> found nothing out there
> as of yet, but the web feels almost as vast as space
> its self. If you don't
> have a specific spot you're aiming for, you could be
> out there wandering
> aimlessly for ever. Thank you to whom ever reads
> this post. I know all of
> your time is important and I do appreciate it.
>
> Thank you
> Jim Dawson
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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> Release Date: 6/23/2007
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Varies depending on the resin used. Epoxy generally does not have a
very long UV endurance, first only yellowing but eventually loses
strength. Some of the polyesters last quite a long time outdoors in the
sun, but are generally do not have as favorable properies as the epoxies
on several fronts.
But isn't this a battery box? Isn't this somewhere inside, not exposed
to direct sunlight?
Danny
David Brandt wrote:
You also have to paint composites to avoid the UV rays in sunlight eventually
breaking down the epoxy.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Exeltech makes a beauty that will take ~120VDC in and output 120VAC 1.1KW
true sine wave.
It cost about $1000...ouch!
http://www.exeltech.com/ex_root/ex_products/ex_inverters/ex_xp/ex_xp_1100.htm
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim, Saturn Guy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVlist" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 9:33 PM
Subject: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
Hello all. I just joined the list and have spent hours reading through
some of the archives. I would like to pick your brains a bit and ask if
anyone has built a DC/AC converter for an Electric Vehicle. I converted a
94 Saturn SL1 and have been driving it since January of this year. I
would like to build an on-board DC/AC converter that runs off the 126
volt pack of my EV and puts out 110v ac to run vital parts of the house in
the event of power outage. All that energy stored and only have it for
the EV feels limited. So, has anyone built or bought one? I've found
nothing out there as of yet, but the web feels almost as vast as space its
self. If you don't have a specific spot you're aiming for, you could be
out there wandering aimlessly for ever. Thank you to whom ever reads this
post. I know all of your time is important and I do appreciate it.
Thank you
Jim Dawson
---------------------------------
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re: controllers
I just picked up the Ted Lucas book, "How to Convert to an Electric Car"
from the library. I know it is a dated text, but a quick scan reveals
that it seems to have circuits and descriptions of controllers that
might be useful as a starting point in figuring out how to design a
controller. FYI
john
PS - dated 1980, the book says that the total materials cost for a
conversion is about $1500 - wish that were true ;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 23 Jun 2007 at 18:33, Jim, Saturn Guy wrote:
> So, has anyone
> built or bought one?
Tom Hudson has an inverter that operates from his Solectria Force's 156 volt
battery. I don't recall whether he has it on his website
http://www.portev.org/
Tom may be reading this and he may chime in.
Exeltech makes outstanding sine wave inverters that operate on voltages up
to 108 volts. You might be able to split the pack and use two of them.
(Don't try to parallel them, though.)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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On 23 Jun 2007 at 19:56, Tony Furr wrote:
> > When it's time
> > to change voltage or battery type, they require professorial gurus
> > who have
> > the sticks necessary to beat new ideas into them. ;-)
>
> By type, do you mean Hawker vs. Optima or SLA vs. LiIon? Is it set
> for a specific amp hour as well as voltage?
Yes. All of the above. Different chemistries use different charge
algorithms. Even within chemistries, different brands require somewhat
different voltages and currents. Batteries with different capacities have
different definitions of end-of-charge voltage. So the charger has to be
configured for chemistry, battery type and brand, voltage, final current,
and in many cases, bulk current.
Of course, dumb chargers just blast away. If you're lucky, they have a
timer.
Flooded lead batteries can take this kind of abuse better than most, but
even they will live longer lives with the proper charge algorithm. Money
spent on a smart charger will be paid back many times over in longer battery
life.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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I'm scrapping UPSs that have all the electronics in them to accomplish this.
I get them from 1KW to 4KW regularly, sometimes larger. I've had a UPS that
was 20KW come in It had about thirty 24 ah 12 batteries in it and some very
impressive electronics. I'm not familiar with EVs enough to know if any of
these parts have EV value, but it would seem that some parts from one DC
system could be useful in another. The main breaker from the batteries to
the UPS was rated at 100 amps 600VDC.
It would be great to be able to reuse some of this stuff.
Pat
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Al
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 7:20 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
Exeltech makes a beauty that will take ~120VDC in and output 120VAC 1.1KW
true sine wave.
It cost about $1000...ouch!
http://www.exeltech.com/ex_root/ex_products/ex_inverters/ex_xp/ex_xp_1100.ht
m
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim, Saturn Guy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVlist" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 9:33 PM
Subject: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
> Hello all. I just joined the list and have spent hours reading through
> some of the archives. I would like to pick your brains a bit and ask if
> anyone has built a DC/AC converter for an Electric Vehicle. I converted a
> 94 Saturn SL1 and have been driving it since January of this year. I
> would like to build an on-board DC/AC converter that runs off the 126
> volt pack of my EV and puts out 110v ac to run vital parts of the house in
> the event of power outage. All that energy stored and only have it for
> the EV feels limited. So, has anyone built or bought one? I've found
> nothing out there as of yet, but the web feels almost as vast as space its
> self. If you don't have a specific spot you're aiming for, you could be
> out there wandering aimlessly for ever. Thank you to whom ever reads this
> post. I know all of your time is important and I do appreciate it.
>
> Thank you
> Jim Dawson
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
> with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
No virus found in this incoming message.
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11:08 AM
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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11:08 AM
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--- Begin Message ---
http://www.jetpower.co.uk/c5home.htm If this puppy can be jet powered it
certainly can be souped up to go faster than it's orginal speed in electric
form.. Lawrence Rhodes......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think we can put this manly/transmission/ACvDC debate to bed for once and for
all. Is 315 mph manly enough? Nothing electric has gone faster. The Buckeye
Bullet did 315 mph with a 5 speed tranny and AC.
<http://www.buckeyebullet.com/history.htm> If you want to go truly fast, it'll
take a transmission with multiple gear ratios.
----- Original Message ----
From: jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:27:30 PM
Subject: Manly EV's, RE: EV are for girls blog
Hi Damon and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: EV are for girls blog
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:04:50 +0000
>Well sure Jerry, there is the giiiiirly way of doing things
>, and then there is the MANNNNNLY way :-)
Depends on what you call manly! I think 2 big
hairy,uh, motors to a diff with a Zilla in a 914/Karman
Ghia, Factory Five Cobra Coupe kitcar is manly in it's own
lean, mean, smart mans way ;^P
Do you really think the White Zombie would be faster
with a trans?
Of course if you want to kulge things together with
the added weight, drag of a trans/clutch and it's less
range, speed, more hassle, larger battery, EV drive to carry
the extra weight, drag and the larger drives, battery weight
too is more caveman manly. Less really is more in many
cases!
And before you say the 2 motors weigh more, consider 2
ES-21's/A89's will beat the stuff out of an 8" at less
weight and cost with much more torque, cont, peak power ;^D
Since D+D makes each of their motors custom for you at
under $500 each, you can get custom windings, double shafts
to mate twin motors easily together and to a diff in any
size 6.7" from them. Since I'm going belt drive, I'll just
put mine nose to nose and belt off the middle.
As my yrs sailing at sea in small boats and building
boats has taught me, actually beat into me, finesse is the
best way by far, not brute strength in most everything. In
EV's, it gives you extra range, acceleration, top speed for
less money, pollution, energy, work!! Your choice ;^D
KIS,
Your somewhat manly friend,
Jerry Dycus
>>From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>Subject: EV are for girls blog
>>Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:01:12 -0500
>>
>>
>> Hi All,
>> I came across this blog and it is pretty
>>good. Even she knew to chose a light, aero EV glider and
>>EV's don't need a clutch/transmission, John and Madman!
>>
>>http://www.electric-cars-are-for-girls.com/build-your-own.
>>html
>> Jerry Dycus
____________________________________________________________________________________
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel
bargains.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
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--- Begin Message ---
Which is what I am doing asking questions.. How ever .. The way I see it ..
Very little has changed in the E V area if the first car made 100 years ago
could get 40 to 100 miles on a charge ,, And I am not thinking better .. I
am thinking cheaper.. Which is better to me. We will see maybe I will have
nothing .. But it sure don't sound like shit to me .. A switch that turns on
and off for 700 bucks..
-------Original Message-------
From: damon henry
Date: 06/23/07 21:39:04
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Make it
Just be aware that there have been tens of thousands of people using their
Imaginations for over 100 years when it comes to a lot of the technology
That you will be dealing with. There is a much likelier chance you will
Re-dream up someones old bad idea than come up with something spectacularly
New. Electric motors are a very mature technology. Usually when dealing
With a mature technology like this the best approach is to look at what
Others have done before you and either make a minor improvement or adapt a
Certain known approach to your special requirements.
Damon
>From: "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>Subject: Re: Make it
>Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 20:54:27 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
>
>
>
>Thank you very much.. That is the information that I needed to continue my
>search..
>
>Imagination is the key to success not a trip down the same road everybody
>else has took.
>
>Mitchell
>
>
>
>From: Peter VanDerWal
>Date: 06/23/07 19:55:21
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Re: Make it
>
> >
> > Seeing how a controller is only a on off switch that has a frequency
>that
> > varries .. The faster it goes the faster you go ..
>
>That is incorrect. Some controllers vary the frequency, but that is to
>Control other issues, NOT the speed.
>The speed is controlled by changing the pulse width (Hence the term PWM:
>Pulse Width Modulation)
>Basically it changes the relationship between how long the switch is on vs
>Off. If it's on for 50% of the time and off for 50%, you get 50% of the
>Speed. On for 25%, off for 75%, 25% speed. However, the frequency
>Remains the same.
>
> >
> > I am sure this can be reproduced without spending 700 bucks..
>
>That is easy to say when you don't have a clue what is inside the box.
>The biggest part of the cost is the power stage. This uses expensive
>Chunks of silicon. Not only that, but there are ofetn 20 or more chunks
>All connected in parallel to share the load. The really expensive
>Controllers use matched silicon (usually matched by hand) so that they
>Share the load evenly.
>Then they need something called low ESR capacitors, lots of them. These
>Are also very expensive.
>Then you have to spend a lot of time and blow up a lot of silicon refining
>Your design, because at these power levels LOCATION of the parts becomes
>Critical, as does the exact method they are connected together and to the
>Circuit card. So part of the cost of the controllers is recovering the
>Costs of designing it.
>
>Early on I figured it would be simple and cheap to build my own
>Controller. I discovered that when buying the parts at retail costs
>(instead of bulk discounts) it cost just as much to buy the parts as it
>Did to buy the controller. Then you have to go through the whole process
>Of blowing up your own silicon figuring out how to set everything up, so
>Now you have to buy MORE parts and it ends up costing you MORE than buying
>A controller.
>
> >
> > The question I need to know is at what rate dose the average controllers
> > on
> > and off frequency change to and from.
> > In time sec .and How many time in a sec . To archive O to max speed
> >
>
>As I said that is the wrong question. However, most pick a relatively
>High frequency (say 15khz) because the pulses make the coils in the motor
>Vibrate, just like a big speaker. If you pick a low frequency, then you
>Can actually hear the coils vibrate, it makes a whistling or squealing
>Sound. If you pick to high a frequency then you end up with extra
>Switching losses (the energy you loose when the silicon turns from off to
>On, or vice versa)
>
> > Mitchell
> >
> >
>
>
>--
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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Interesting.. Let me Know please what he says
Mitchell
-------Original Message-------
From: Rob Hogenmiller
Date: 6/23/2007 11:03:14 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Make it
I've been checking out these speed controllers for electric vehicles. I'm
Somewhat dissapointed in what I've come across. When I raced shifterkarts we
Had speed controllers for our vehicles we could select A, B, C, or D
Programs each setting could be programmed on a computer to deliver different
Types of power curves.
http://www.swedetechracingengines
com/parts_accessories/pictures/spi_548x480-047c.jpg
I think they were around $250
I have messaged the gentleman that makes them to see if he would have
Interest in building them for EV's.
God bless
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 12:20 PM
Subject: RE: Make it
>
>
>
>>From: "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>>Subject: Make it
>>Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 13:00:11 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
>>
>>
>>Seeing how a controller is only a on off switch that has a frequency that
>>varries .. The faster it goes the faster you go ..
>>
>>I am sure this can be reproduced without spending 700 bucks..
>>
>>The question I need to know is at what rate dose the average controllers
>>on
>>and off frequency change to and from.
>>In time sec .and How many time in a sec . To archive O to max speed
>
> Most controllers ( the Curtis C series is an exception) use a constant
> switching frequency. The duty cycle ( % of the time that the "switch" is
> closed) is varied to control the power to the motor. That is what controls
> how fast you go.
>
> Switching hundreds of amps at hundreds of volts reliably may be more
> difficult ( and expensive) than you think.
>
> If you succeed at building a good controller for less than $700, please
> let us know.
>
> Phil Marino
>
>
>>
>>Mitchell
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> PC Magazine's 2007 editors' choice for best Web mail-award-winning Windows
> Live Hotmail.
> http://imagine-windowslive
com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some things have change a lot in 100 years. Going 15 miles an hour was fast
in 1907. When you increase the speed to today's standards it requires much
higher Ah rate from the batteries. This is not a fair comparison getting there
faster is not done with the same amount of energy.
If it was inexpensive to make the controller and could be done for what you
feel is a fair price someone would have done it.
As pointed out below it is always more expensive to make anything in units
of one.
Don Blazer
Which is what I am doing asking questions.. How ever .. The way I see it ..
Very little has changed in the E V area if the first car made 100 years ago
could get 40 to 100 miles on a charge ,, And I am not thinking better .. I
am thinking cheaper.. Which is better to me. We will see maybe I will have
nothing .. But it sure don't sound like shit to me .. A switch that turns on
and off for 700 bucks..
-------Original Message-------
From: damon henry
Date: 06/23/07 21:39:04
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Make it
Just be aware that there have been tens of thousands of people using their
Imaginations for over 100 years when it comes to a lot of the technology
That you will be dealing with. There is a much likelier chance you will
Re-dream up someones old bad idea than come up with something spectacularly
New. Electric motors are a very mature technology. Usually when dealing
With a mature technology like this the best approach is to look at what
Others have done before you and either make a minor improvement or adapt a
Certain known approach to your special requirements.
Damon
>From: "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>Subject: Re: Make it
>Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 20:54:27 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
>
>
>
>Thank you very much.. That is the information that I needed to continue my
>search..
>
>Imagination is the key to success not a trip down the same road everybody
>else has took.
>
>Mitchell
>
>
>
>From: Peter VanDerWal
>Date: 06/23/07 19:55:21
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Re: Make it
>
> >
> > Seeing how a controller is only a on off switch that has a frequency
>that
> > varries .. The faster it goes the faster you go ..
>
>That is incorrect. Some controllers vary the frequency, but that is to
>Control other issues, NOT the speed.
>The speed is controlled by changing the pulse width (Hence the term PWM:
>Pulse Width Modulation)
>Basically it changes the relationship between how long the switch is on vs
>Off. If it's on for 50% of the time and off for 50%, you get 50% of the
>Speed. On for 25%, off for 75%, 25% speed. However, the frequency
>Remains the same.
>
> >
> > I am sure this can be reproduced without spending 700 bucks..
>
>That is easy to say when you don't have a clue what is inside the box.
>The biggest part of the cost is the power stage. This uses expensive
>Chunks of silicon. Not only that, but there are ofetn 20 or more chunks
>All connected in parallel to share the load. The really expensive
>Controllers use matched silicon (usually matched by hand) so that they
>Share the load evenly.
>Then they need something called low ESR capacitors, lots of them. These
>Are also very expensive.
>Then you have to spend a lot of time and blow up a lot of silicon refining
>Your design, because at these power levels LOCATION of the parts becomes
>Critical, as does the exact method they are connected together and to the
>Circuit card. So part of the cost of the controllers is recovering the
>Costs of designing it.
>
>Early on I figured it would be simple and cheap to build my own
>Controller. I discovered that when buying the parts at retail costs
>(instead of bulk discounts) it cost just as much to buy the parts as it
>Did to buy the controller. Then you have to go through the whole process
>Of blowing up your own silicon figuring out how to set everything up, so
>Now you have to buy MORE parts and it ends up costing you MORE than buying
>A controller.
>
> >
> > The question I need to know is at what rate dose the average controllers
> > on
> > and off frequency change to and from.
> > In time sec .and How many time in a sec . To archive O to max speed
> >
>
>As I said that is the wrong question. However, most pick a relatively
>High frequency (say 15khz) because the pulses make the coils in the motor
>Vibrate, just like a big speaker. If you pick a low frequency, then you
>Can actually hear the coils vibrate, it makes a whistling or squealing
>Sound. If you pick to high a frequency then you end up with extra
>Switching losses (the energy you loose when the silicon turns from off to
>On, or vice versa)
>
> > Mitchell
> >
> >
>
>
>--
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
PC Magazine’s 2007 editors’ choice for best Web mail—award-winning Windows
Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive
com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, but I can only give you the real world-- for a
3300 lb. EV, depending on hills, headwind, etc, it's
between 200-300 amps.
Don't know if that helps,
--- Rob Hogenmiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What is the mathematical formula to determine how
> much HP I will need to
> maintain 55mph.
>
> For i.e.
>
> 5,000lbs vehicle x rolling resistance / 10HP= 50mph
> would eventually produce
> given a long enough run.
>
> (I know that isn't anywhere close to the true
> formula ust trying to get an
> idea)
>
> God bless
>
>
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey, at least he's got a Hawker Odyssey battery in the back.
It didn't look like the chase car had any trouble keeping up with it.
A few more of those Hawkers and a Z1K and he coulda left that chase car ;-)
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Saturday, June 23, 2007 8:56 pm
Subject: Jet powered C5
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> http://www.jetpower.co.uk/c5home.htm If this puppy can be jet
> powered it
> certainly can be souped up to go faster than it's orginal speed in
> electricform.. Lawrence Rhodes......
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Granted, if you're going to be tooling around at 315 mph, then you'll
definitely need a tranny, EVen with an AC powered prime mover. I just wonder
how long it took him to get to the first 100mph though ;-)
----- Original Message -----
From: David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Saturday, June 23, 2007 9:39 pm
Subject: Re: Manly EV's, RE: EV are for girls blog
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> I think we can put this manly/transmission/ACvDC debate to bed for
> once and for all. Is 315 mph manly enough? Nothing electric has
> gone faster. The Buckeye Bullet did 315 mph with a 5 speed tranny
> and AC. <http://www.buckeyebullet.com/history.htm> If you want to
> go truly fast, it'll take a transmission with multiple gear ratios.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
4500 pound S-10 at 55 miles per hour on flat ground 50 amps at 380 volts.
Don Blazer
In a message dated 6/24/2007 12:11:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Sorry, but I can only give you the real world-- for a
3300 lb. EV, depending on hills, headwind, etc, it's
between 200-300 amps.
Don't know if that helps,
--- Rob Hogenmiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What is the mathematical formula to determine how
> much HP I will need to
> maintain 55mph.
>
> For i.e.
>
> 5,000lbs vehicle x rolling resistance / 10HP= 50mph
> would eventually produce
> given a long enough run.
>
> (I know that isn't anywhere close to the true
> formula ust trying to get an
> idea)
>
> God bless
>
>
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
______________________________________________________________________________
______
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Amy and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Amy DeMaagd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: RE: Milestones: Carbon fiber and blogs
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 18:34:36 -0400
>Well, I did some talking with a man who builds experimental
>aircraft and learned a lot about composites. I think that
>if I were to do that part again today, I could probably be
>able to shave at least another 20% off of it and have it be
>stronger.
A good layup person with a putty spreader can make a
FG layup at less weight, more strength than a bad layup of
CF. As you do more you will see how.
You have to admit that carbon fiber does make for
>a good gimmick. It's real eye catching, and in terms of
>sponsorships, flashy is good.
By far the biggest reason to use CF. Notice how
often it is left clear where that will weaken it when
exposed to sunlight.
CF only decreases weight of a part 20% and as 20x's
as expensive, just not wise other than looks or an aircraft,
ect where each pound really matters. Don't get me wrong, CF
has it's place when correctly used along loadlines.
So, if it is only used on the
>top layer for looks, do I still have to worry about the
>loadline thing?
Normally a car body is just a fairing to put style
on and keep the weather out, strength is rarely a problem.
>I'm pretty sure that we wet it out well, since we used a
>roller to bring epoxy up from the backside. No visibility
>problems with that methodology
A smart way to do it, from the bottom!! But don't
think that's enough as it can stil have air voids.
>The whole shebang will probably need a core no matter what
>because the entire front end will be cast as one piece and
>a tilt front end will be fabricated, the airplane guy
>recommends nomex(sp?) honeycomb.
He says that it can handle
>complex curves well, which is very necessary around the
>headlights and whatnot.
Curves just like egg shells are self supporting so if
any curve under a 6' radius rarely needs cores. Just the
flat parts need cores. nomex is good bith so are many other
cores. Be careful on honeycomb cores you don't fill the
cells with resin!!! Kinda ruins the lightweight thing.
Why is Kevlar not being used more
>if what you say is true? Is it horrendously ugly, or does
>it cause your firstborn to experience mutations?
Brant had a good post on that.
>
>
>Hmm. Didn't really consider making a hardtop, but it's a
>very good idea.
Whatever you do if you want good range at above 50
mph, you need to be aero. I'm talking double the range at
higher speeds vs a convertible.
And if you want aero, an aero top is nessasary. The
stock ones are removeable and can be easily modified, most
cleaning up the rear for a clean seperation of the
airstream.
I will admit that I had been toying with
>the idea of putting 50's Cadillac style fins on the sucker.
>I can think of nothing more deliciously entertaining, but I
>get schizophrenic style debates running through my head
>when I play with those thoughts that usually look something
>like this: Fancy: Oh, come on, you're already going to be
>stretching the body. It's a natural progression!
>Reason: It serves no purpose other than being absurd.
>Fancy: But it's cool!
>Reason: Well, some people don't look at it as cool. They
>look at it as ugly, and an indicator of a fascination with
>the excess from the era, and as a style element best left
>dead. Fancy: We don't care what some people think. Some
>people think that electric cars are illogical. You aren't
>working to please some people, or all people.
>Reason: We don't want to put a whole ton of work, or weight
>, into something that serves no purpose whatsoever.
>Fancy: Well, when you think about it, it's be a great place
>to have some snazzy "Electric" graphics, or a web address.
>And that'd be much closer to a readable level when passing
>cars on the freeway. Reason: Touche...
>(Even reason can be seduced)
Reason is regularly seduced!! The rare thing is
reason being followed ;^P Style isn't exclusive from reason
but rarely seems to be the rare exception, not the rule.
>
>
>The trouble with something that is more drawn back and
>tapers would be access to the trunk. I wouldn't want to
>have visible hinges at all, a solid construction would be
>best.
I was thinking of not having a trunk and accessing it
from the inside. You don't need to do a fastback though it
looks cool, works well, a stock hardtop is removeable and
easily modified.
>
>About the batteries:
>We know a guy who runs a company in Rockford that does all
>sorts of electronic stuff, motors, batteries, capacitors,
>etc. It was actually one of the companies that pioneered
>Lithium ion batteries in cell phones. He used to work for
>GM researching alternative propulsion methods, but when he
>got too good at it and starting to find some really
>incredible stuff, GM naturally cut funding. So, he started
>his own company. This guy thinks so far out of the box that
>he'd need binoculars to even SEE the box. They are working
>on motors that can thrust off of the resonance in the air,
>not the air. Really wacky stuff.
Cool, sound like a cool mentor.
>
>Anyways, he said that he can walk down the halls at his
>company and trip over everything that we need, so,
>basically, I can get whatever I want, free.(Whee! Ultra
>capacitors! Lithium ion batteries! 3 phase AC motors!) It's
>a happy thing.
Find out how many li batts and what type/model # you
can get as the type, BMS, ect takes time to do.. You'll need
100-200 lbs of them if they are suitible. It's not for the
faint of heart but we will help you.
Where are you? There may be other EV'ers around you
that can help.
>
>Which is why I'm kind of considering getting two motors and
>hooking them up directly to the rear wheels. I do need to
>figure out some type of gear reduction to try this, though,
>and any input on that front would be greatly appreciated.
That's an excellent idea as it can make it really
fast. You don't need a reduction as your rear end
differential has it built in. Turn the driveshaft, counting
as you go and see how many needed to turn BOTH wheels 1 time
as that will be needed in you later calculations. Chalk
marks help.
Doing 1 motor to each wheel costs a lot of time,
money with little gain over the current rearend. Better to
put them inline to the driveshaft where the transmission
was.
I'm doing a 4wheeler EV from scratch and doing the
1 motor/wheel but I have the units and don't have a suitable
axle I can get for production. For you the stock setup is
probably better.
>Do try to remember...our donor vehicle doesn't even have a
>tranny, and the frame and body are being hand built to
>incorporate our designs, so ground-up engineering is
>totally possible.
That's how to get a great EV. You are on your way
to make an EV that can blow the doors off most EV's and
possible even fast ICE's!!
Jerry Dycus
>
>Thank you all.
>
>-Amy
>
>
>
>>Remember me? The snotty little girl with big dreams? Well,
>>I'm back, and I have a blog. Ish. It's mediocre, but it'll
>>do for now. I'll build a real website...uh...someday.
>
>>
>>http://www.electricspritejournals.blogspot.com
>>
>>Also, I pulled the trunk lid off my donor car and laid up
>>a compsite part from it. There was only enough carbon
>>fiber lying around to do the top layer, so the structural
>>backing and bottom layer of the skin are plain old
>>fiberglass, but this still is a more than 60% weight
>>savings(also despite being excessively generous with
>epoxy. Lesson learned.).
>
> I see you have fallen for the CF hype. CF is rarely
>that much lighter that medium tech FG or Kevlar and a combo
>of FG/Kevlar makes a much stronger body part at much less
>money.
> For instance if your CF is woven cloth, it loses it's
>one advantage, stiffness as it's now stiff springs as the
>strands are no longer in columm!! Kind of defeats it's
>purpose. But even done without being woven, it can't be
>used with other materials like FG along the same loadline
>because it will take all the load until it breaks then only
>the FG is left for strength purposes anyways. So for any
>given load direction, use one or the other.
> You should also lay up a CF sample, let it cure, then
>cut and break it to see if your epoxy is actually soaking
>in as CF does not wet out easily though looks like it does.
> Kevlar cloth is tough as you can get, very hard to
>punch through, abrade so with light FG, makes a saafer
>great body layup for curved panels. Flatter panels need a
>core.
> BTW you might find these parts are already made for
>racers and you might be able to beg some. Contact you local
>SCCA, road racing clubs as they use to be raced all the
>time and probably still do.
> What you should do is make the new body more aero by
>getting or building a hardtop which was a common option on
>them. The rear of it needs to be shaped more aero that the
>optional ones need mods. Look at the Porsche 914 cabin top
>for inspiration. This alone can reduce your aero drag 25%
>vs a convertible!!! Or you could make a fastback version,
>easy to do from a flat panel mold, then bend to shape.
>
>
>>If I can get my paws on enough carbon fiber to do the
>>whole car without fiberglass, I'll have to do this part
>>over, but it is still a pretty exciting milestone.
>>Although, since carbon fiber and aluminum experience some
>>type of corrosion, this method may be better. Of course,
>>so do aluminum and steel and that didn't stop Chevy from
>>using the combination in some Corvette parts. I will never
>>lose the visual of seeing aluminum crumble like feta
>cheese...
>
> A good epoxy solves the CF/Alum corrosion problem.
>
>>
>>I feel somehow guilty that this post does not in any way
>>include anything technical. Am I doing something wrong if
>>I do not speak in variables?
>
> Getting EV's on the road is what we are about so
>difinently on topic. You picked a good starting point
>vehicle. If you can redo the for, aft body in composites,
>thus light and great aero, you will have a great EV able to
>beat most other EVs in range, speed for a much lower cost.
> Did you mention you had Li batts? What type, how
>many? If you have enough, this could be an outstanding EV
>but even with lead, it could be great. Even if not enough,
>you could do a hybrid pack with what you have.
> Good luck with your project, if we can help, ask,
> Jerry Dycus
>
--- End Message ---
