EV digest 6946

Mon, 25 Jun 2007 08:33:55 -0700 

                            EV Digest 6946

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: 55 MPH Part II
        by Tom Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: 55 MPH Part II
        by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Understanding Motor Specs Torque
        by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) RE: vroombox and EV ?
        by "Garret Maki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: VOLTS vs AMPS
        by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) RE: Make it
        by "Garret Maki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: "Carbon Fiber" Batteries
        by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) RE: Make it
        by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) FW: Regen with Sevcon and Etek
        by "Garret Maki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) How low can you go?
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 11) Re: How low can you go?
        by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
        by "Brandon Kruger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
        by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Understanding my motor (ADC L91 & X91 6.7" motors revisited)
        by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
        by "Brandon Kruger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) FW: Regen with Sevcon and Etek
        by "Garret Maki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
        by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: Ultimate magnetic motor design
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: VOLTS vs AMPS & RE: Make It
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: regarding the Solectria Sunrise
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: FW: Regen with Sevcon and Etek
        by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Re: Make it
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message --- 
On Mon, 2007-06-25 at 07:30 -0500, Rob Hogenmiller wrote:
> >From what I've been reading it takes about 60 ft/lbs of torque to maintain 
> an average vehicle at 55mph.
> 
> Or around 5-10HP.

That sounds a little low. Maybe for a small slippery car.

> I've noticed that there inexpensive motors that produce the HP ratings no 
> problem, but from what I'm reading the won't produce the torque 
> requirements, for example this motor meets the HP rating but not the torque, 
> http://www.electricmotorsport.com/PARTS/Perm.htm
> 
> What other motors might I be eyeballing that could maintain 55mph?
> ( I will have the capability to use two motors, but prefer not too if not 
> necessary.)

How big are your wheels? Will you use direct drive or will you have a
reduction drive? Remember the differential on most cars has around 3:1
reduction. Assuming 3:1 reduction reduces your required motor torque by
a factor of 3 and increases the required motor speed by the same factor.

Basically, work out your required power at 55mph, use your wheel radius
to find the wheel torque and wheel speed, apply by any reduction ratio
and you'll get a motor torque and speed. Then go shopping.

If what you really want is >60ft/lbs and >10HP, then you could look at
the Siemens 1L5118: http://www.metricmind.com/motor.htm but be aware
that the maximum ratings quoted there will have "quite" short time
limits before the system overheats. I only point you there because I had
that page open. A motor designed for high torque, low speed operation
would suit you better.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
>>From what I've been reading it takes about 60 ft/lbs of torque to
>> maintain
> an average vehicle at 55mph.
>
> Or around 5-10HP.
>

HP = torque x RPM

If the motor has the HP to maintain the speed, but the torque is low, that
just means that the RPM is too high.  Gear the RPM down and the torque
goes up by the same factor.

I.e. 1 HP = 5252 ft/lbs per minute.
That would either be 5252 ft/lbs of torque at 1 RPM, or 1 ft/lb of torque
at 5252 RPM or 100 ft/lbs of torque at 52.52 RPM

So let's say your vehicle requires 8hp to go 55mph and that this works out
to 60 ft/lbs of torque at 700 rpm wheels.  Let's say your motor 8hp, but
it's at 10 ft/lbs of torque and 4200 RPM.  What you need is a transmission
(belt drive, chain drive, gears, etc.) with a 6:1 reduction ratio.  That
will reduce the RPM from 4200 to 700 and increase your torque from 10
ft/lbs to 60 ft/lbs.
8HP into the transmission, 8HP out.  The universe is happy and everything
works out.


> I've noticed that there inexpensive motors that produce the HP ratings no
> problem, but from what I'm reading the won't produce the torque
> requirements, for example this motor meets the HP rating but not the
> torque,
> http://www.electricmotorsport.com/PARTS/Perm.htm
>
> What other motors might I be eyeballing that could maintain 55mph?
> ( I will have the capability to use two motors, but prefer not too if not
> necessary.)
>
> I have a near unlimited run to reach 55mph so it's not important that I
> have
> a motor that help me reach 55mph quickly (I'll be using a gas engine to
> propel me to speed), I'm hoping to find one the will help me maintain that
> speed, to do some testing of theories on a budget.
>
> God bless
>
>


-- 
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legalistic signature is void.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Yup, and some little motors are rated in in-oz

12 in-lbs does in fact equal 1 ft-lb.
However, 1 ft-lb equals 1.356 Nm (Newton Meters)

> I've noticed some motors give their specs in Nm, some in LB-IN, and some
> LB-FT.
>
> I was wondering is 12 LB-IN the same as 1 LB-FT?
>
> and is 1 Nm the same as 3.28 LB-FT ?
>
> God bless
>
>


-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I think it is a terrible idea.  Attentive pedestrians are the answer, not noise 
pollution.
-Garret

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Florian Schmidt
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 3:17 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: vroombox and EV ?

Thinking about the pedestrians that don´t hear an EV coming, i was wondering if 
it´s possible to install the vroombox in an EV.

What do you think ?

http://www.vroombox.com/vroombox/
-- 
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
On Mon, June 25, 2007 4:29 am, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> well the electric effect propagates at a significant portion of the
> speed of light in vacuum but afaik the electrons literally move at a
> snail's pace.

Actually, electrons move at 2 speeds. First is their absolute movement,
where they jiggle around randomly through the conductive material, the
movement forming a sort of cloud. These oscillating movements occur at a
very high speed, around a million meters per second. This happens all the
time whether current is flowing or not.

When voltage is applied and current begins to flow, this rapidly vibrating
electron begins to drift through the conductor. This average speed of the
electron with respect to the conductive material is indeed on the order of
millimeters per second. Using the same wire diameter, more amps means
faster flow, and faster flow excites the atoms around which the electrons
pass. This generates heat.

A third "speed" would be the speed of signal propagation, the rate at
which the applied voltage can be detected along a conductor. I apply
voltage at one end of the wire, and you can detect that I've applied
voltage at the other -- this signal propagates at nearly the speed of
light.  It's much like hydraulics or other fluid power systems -- the oil
itself doesn't necessarily travel fast or far, but the force is
transmitted almost instantly.


> further there are no such things as electrons but only nonlinearly
> coupled waves continuously replenished in tendential constellations
> called electrons
> to be technically correct :)

Can you post a URL?  I have read nothing to suggest that electrons don't
actually exist.  They can be represented by wave functions and I'll admit
that much of that goes over my head, but I'm always willing to learn...




-- 
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org          <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Has anyone else used regen on a Sevcon Millipak Perm. Mag. Controller?

I have an electric motorcycle with an Etek motor and Sevcon Millipak
controller with variable regen.  It is only providing slight slowing,
not any serious braking power.  
So far I have just tried back and forth in front of my house, with a
nearly fully charged pack.  I do see the pack voltage go up a volt or
two under regen braking.  At 30 MPH I can clearly tell it is adding some
drag, coming to a stop it rolls easily with regen brake fully engaged.
I have the braking set to 100% on the controller.  

I am thinking I am missing something, because the amount of braking I am
getting doesn't seem to agree with accounts of other people with other
systems hardly needing to use the mechanical brakes. 

Anyone else have experience with this controller for regen?

-Garret Maki
Boulder Colorado

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
On 6/25/07, David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I was pretty excited when I first saw these, hoping they were like the firefly 
batteries.
Alas, "carbon fiber" refers to the decorative case. The specs seem pretty good.


I have used "carbon fibre" batteries before:  http://www.elecsol.com/

I don't know quite what the difference with normal ("leisure")
lead-acid batteries was, they did not perform much differently and
were not significantly lighter or anything.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Yes I had a similar set up on a trike and my regen
would bring me to a complete stop on a steep hill.  I
was running a 6:1 gear ratio an e-tec and had the
regen set to only 50%.  the trike weithed about 250lbs
and so do I and it was like slamming on the brakes
when I hit regen.

--- Garret Maki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Has anyone else used regen on a Sevcon Millipak
> Perm. Mag. Controller?
> 
> I have an electric motorcycle with an Etek motor and
> Sevcon Millipak
> controller with variable regen.  It is only
> providing slight slowing,
> not any serious braking power.  
> So far I have just tried back and forth in front of
> my house, with a
> nearly fully charged pack.  I do see the pack
> voltage go up a volt or
> two under regen braking.  At 30 MPH I can clearly
> tell it is adding some
> drag, coming to a stop it rolls easily with regen
> brake fully engaged.
> I have the braking set to 100% on the controller.  
> 
> I am thinking I am missing something, because the
> amount of braking I am
> getting doesn't seem to agree with accounts of other
> people with other
> systems hardly needing to use the mechanical brakes.
> 
> 
> Anyone else have experience with this controller for
> regen?
> 
> -Garret Maki
> Boulder Colorado 
> 
> 



 
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Sorry for the repeat.  First time I forgot to change the Subject.

Has anyone else used regen on a Sevcon Millipak Perm. Mag. Controller?

I have an electric motorcycle with an Etek motor and Sevcon Millipak
controller with variable regen.  It is only providing slight slowing,
not any serious braking power.  
So far I have just tried back and forth in front of my house, with a
nearly fully charged pack.  I do see the pack voltage go up a volt or
two under regen braking.  At 30 MPH I can clearly tell it is adding some
drag, coming to a stop it rolls easily with regen brake fully engaged.
I have the braking set to 100% on the controller.  

I am thinking I am missing something, because the amount of braking I am
getting doesn't seem to agree with accounts of other people with other
systems hardly needing to use the mechanical brakes. 

Anyone else have experience with this controller for regen?

-Garret Maki
Boulder Colorado

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- The Optima data sheet indicates that 10.5 volts is the cut off low voltage for the reserve capacity.
Should that voltage also be considered the maximum “sag” voltage during a high current draw regardless of the state of charge or sag time?
For example, if an instantaneous 100 amps sags the voltage down to 10.5 volts, but, returns to 13 volts when released. Does that mean that, at that state of charge, 100 amps should not be exceeded (for any given time)?
Or more simply, should the battery never be taken below 10.5 volts under any circumstance or time period. 

Ken

________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
On Mon, 2007-06-25 at 10:39 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The Optima data sheet indicates that 10.5 volts is the cut off low 
> voltage for the reserve capacity.
> 
> Should that voltage also be considered the maximum “sag” voltage during 
> a high current draw regardless of the state of charge or sag time?
> 
> For example, if an instantaneous 100 amps sags the voltage down to 10.5 
> volts, but, returns to 13 volts when released.  Does that mean that, at 
> that state of charge, 100 amps should not be exceeded (for any given 
> time)?
> 
> Or more simply, should the battery never be taken below 10.5 volts 
> under any circumstance or time period.
> 

As I understand it, 1.75 volts per cell (10.5 volts for a 12V battery)
is the lowest you should ever take any lead-acid battery under any
circumstances. So, if you were to continue drawing 100A, soon the
battery voltage would dip under 10.5 volts, and you'd know that you're
then decreasing the life expectancy of the battery. I believe this
applies regardless of discharge current, even letting them sit
(self-discharge).


-- 
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org          <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
This may not work for EVs under 200V or so, but a Xantrex grid-tie
solar inverter connected to a DC controller would allow you to feed
power into your home or the grid from your battery pack (peak hours)
and it would serve as a backup power supply.  The only problems I see
are: it requires <200VDC battery pack, and it may face legality
issues.

http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/172/p/968/pt/2/product.asp

--
Brandon Kruger
http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/
http://cafepress.com/altfuel


On 6/24/07, Pat Galliher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I get fans from about 2" up to about 6" from a lot of different equipment.
Most are 12V some are 24V. I don't think there are any DC/DC converters. I
can't see where they would be used.

Almost everything that comes in has a sheet metal case. Some of the larger
pieces are only 15" x 18" approximately. Is that large enough to put to use?
Some of the cases are aluminum as is some of the extrusions. The biggest
problem is most of the stuff isn't over 18" long.

I would think the chargers might have some potential. All of the batteries
are six or twelve volts so the chargers are going to fit someone's
application. I'm going to check a bit further, but some may be charging up
to 240 volts. But as someone noted, it's probably not at a very high
amperage. Here is a link to the type of UPSs I get
http://apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SURT3000RMXLT-1T
F5&tab=models . During the course of the year, I probably see most of the
UPSs that this company makes.

I can look around tomorrow and see if I have anything that might work for
you (or get you started). Send me an email of the forum and I'll send you my
contact info.

Pat

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jim, Saturn Guy
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 11:18 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)

All of the fans could be used and any of the larger 12
volt AMG batteries for the vehicle power system.  What
else is there.  Is there any type of DC/DC converters
in them?  96v,120v,144v, to 12v for vehicle power?
Some of the low and high voltage relays could be used.
 Maybe some of the metal for battery boxes.  And 0 to
5000 Ohm potentiometers in them?  Possible the
transformers for charging the battery banks in the
EV's.  I'm sure many of the parts can be re-used.  I
know I'm not thinking of all the possibility's.  And
back to the DC/AC UPS.  Do you have a UPS that will
except 120volt DC input for 120v AC output?  Would
love to get a hold of one.  I think it's the easiest
and least expensive way to accomplish what I want to
do.  Thanks again,....

Jim
--- Pat Galliher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> That's my dilemma, Jim. I don't know what is usable
> in the EV community. If
> it's in computers and/or office equipment, I
> probably have it....
> Any help on what to look for?
>
> Pat
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Jim, Saturn Guy
> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 9:15 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
>
> Would love to get a hold of one of those UPS units.
> I
> have a few myself, but they all only except 48
> volts.
> Although they do have a 2,800 watt output at 120v.
> That would be enough.  I thought of splitting my
> battery bank for the UPS, but it would be unbalanced
> and still over the voltage limit of the UPS.  So
> what
> do you have available?  And what other types of
> electronic components do you have that may be of use
> to the EV community?  Thank you...
>
> Jim Dawson
>
>
> --- Pat Galliher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Jim,
> > There are a number of existing computer system UPS
> > that use between 120v and
> > 132v DC and convert it to AC. It would be a very
> > simple matter to connect
> > one to the battery pack of your car. I'm an
> > electronics recycler and also
> > new to the forum. I have (literally) tons of stuff
> > that comes through my
> > place that I wonder if it could be put to good use
> > on an EV. The UPSs that I
> > get all have deep cycle batteries in them, but I
> > think they are too small to
> > be of any use. The largest I've noticed are 24 AH
> > rated. Most are 7-12 AH
> > rated. But it would seem some of the electronics
> > could be used for EV
> > projects.
> >
> > Pat
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Jim, Saturn Guy
> > Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 6:34 PM
> > To: EVlist
> > Subject: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
> >
> > Hello all.  I just joined the list and have spent
> > hours reading through some
> > of the archives.  I would like to pick your brains
> a
> > bit and ask if anyone
> > has built a DC/AC converter for an Electric
> Vehicle.
> >  I converted a 94
> > Saturn SL1 and have been driving it since January
> of
> > this year.  I would
> > like to build  an on-board DC/AC converter that
> runs
> > off the 126 volt pack
> > of my EV and puts out 110v ac to run vital parts
> of
> > the house in the event
> > of power outage.  All that energy stored and only
> > have it for the EV feels
> > limited.  So, has anyone built or bought one?
> I've
> > found nothing out there
> > as of yet, but the web feels almost as vast as
> space
> > its self.  If you don't
> > have a specific spot you're aiming for, you could
> be
> > out there wandering
> > aimlessly for ever.  Thank you to whom ever reads
> > this post.  I know all of
> > your time is important and I do appreciate it.
> >
> >   Thank you
> >   Jim Dawson
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
> > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.6/863 -
> > Release Date: 6/23/2007
> > 11:08 AM
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.6/863 -
> > Release Date: 6/23/2007
> > 11:08 AM
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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> 8:33 AM
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> No virus found in this outgoing message.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Remember, the Xantrex inverter (like all grid-tie inverters) is
designed to only operate if the grid is up -- it automatically shuts
down when the grid goes down, so no backup power.  The software for it
is also assuming a limited DC input, so I'm not sure what it would do
with an unlimited power source -- you might need a controller on the
DC input that adjusts the DC voltage the inverter gets to trick the
inverter into thinking the battery is a solar array....

As far as legality.... most utility companies would have no idea what
to make of it.  California, New Jersey, and some in Colorado might,
but elsewhere, most companies have no clue what UL1741 is.

Z

On 6/25/07, Brandon Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

This may not work for EVs under 200V or so, but a Xantrex grid-tie
solar inverter connected to a DC controller would allow you to feed
power into your home or the grid from your battery pack (peak hours)
and it would serve as a backup power supply.  The only problems I see
are: it requires <200VDC battery pack, and it may face legality
issues.

http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/172/p/968/pt/2/product.asp

--
Brandon Kruger
http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/
http://cafepress.com/altfuel


On 6/24/07, Pat Galliher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I get fans from about 2" up to about 6" from a lot of different equipment.
> Most are 12V some are 24V. I don't think there are any DC/DC converters. I
> can't see where they would be used.
>
> Almost everything that comes in has a sheet metal case. Some of the larger
> pieces are only 15" x 18" approximately. Is that large enough to put to use?
> Some of the cases are aluminum as is some of the extrusions. The biggest
> problem is most of the stuff isn't over 18" long.
>
> I would think the chargers might have some potential. All of the batteries
> are six or twelve volts so the chargers are going to fit someone's
> application. I'm going to check a bit further, but some may be charging up
> to 240 volts. But as someone noted, it's probably not at a very high
> amperage. Here is a link to the type of UPSs I get
> http://apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SURT3000RMXLT-1T
> F5&tab=models . During the course of the year, I probably see most of the
> UPSs that this company makes.
>
> I can look around tomorrow and see if I have anything that might work for
> you (or get you started). Send me an email of the forum and I'll send you my
> contact info.
>
> Pat
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Lee,

You posted the info below and I've been studying it. I have the L91 motor:



Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 10:41:10 -0500
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Difference between ADC L91 and X91 6.7" motors?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Ian Hooper wrote:
Hi all,

Is it just the different voltage ratings (120V and 144V
respectively), or are there other differences? Power ratings are
about the same, correct?
The voltage rating on an electric motor is somewhat arbitrary; just one point on a curve. There are many other combinations of voltage, current, rpm, and horsepower they could have listed that are just as valid.
Yes, the mechanical power ratings of both motors are the same. The main difference is that the X91 has more commutator bars and more armature windings than the L91. The X91 produces more torque per amp, and less RPM per volt. Thus, you need to apply more voltage to the X91 to get a given rpm, and less current to get a given amount of torque.
Since I have the L91, can I assume that the opposite applies? Fewer commutator bars and windings so I will use more current to get a given amount of torque and that means that I will probably use more of my amps to accelerate to a particular speed but that I can get more RPM's per volt? 

What does this mean for my driving style? Any recommendations?

Thanks,

Rich A.

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/25/learn.asp
This page shows it's possible to use the inverter with a backup
source, which would be the battery pack.  I dont know how well this
would work but I'm sure it's possible.

--
Brandon Kruger
http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/
http://cafepress.com/altfuel

On 6/25/07, Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Remember, the Xantrex inverter (like all grid-tie inverters) is
designed to only operate if the grid is up -- it automatically shuts
down when the grid goes down, so no backup power.  The software for it
is also assuming a limited DC input, so I'm not sure what it would do
with an unlimited power source -- you might need a controller on the
DC input that adjusts the DC voltage the inverter gets to trick the
inverter into thinking the battery is a solar array....

As far as legality.... most utility companies would have no idea what
to make of it.  California, New Jersey, and some in Colorado might,
but elsewhere, most companies have no clue what UL1741 is.

Z

On 6/25/07, Brandon Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This may not work for EVs under 200V or so, but a Xantrex grid-tie
> solar inverter connected to a DC controller would allow you to feed
> power into your home or the grid from your battery pack (peak hours)
> and it would serve as a backup power supply.  The only problems I see
> are: it requires <200VDC battery pack, and it may face legality
> issues.
>
> http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/172/p/968/pt/2/product.asp
>
> --
> Brandon Kruger
> http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/
> http://cafepress.com/altfuel
>
>
> On 6/24/07, Pat Galliher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I get fans from about 2" up to about 6" from a lot of different equipment.
> > Most are 12V some are 24V. I don't think there are any DC/DC converters. I
> > can't see where they would be used.
> >
> > Almost everything that comes in has a sheet metal case. Some of the larger
> > pieces are only 15" x 18" approximately. Is that large enough to put to use?
> > Some of the cases are aluminum as is some of the extrusions. The biggest
> > problem is most of the stuff isn't over 18" long.
> >
> > I would think the chargers might have some potential. All of the batteries
> > are six or twelve volts so the chargers are going to fit someone's
> > application. I'm going to check a bit further, but some may be charging up
> > to 240 volts. But as someone noted, it's probably not at a very high
> > amperage. Here is a link to the type of UPSs I get
> > http://apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SURT3000RMXLT-1T
> > F5&tab=models . During the course of the year, I probably see most of the
> > UPSs that this company makes.
> >
> > I can look around tomorrow and see if I have anything that might work for
> > you (or get you started). Send me an email of the forum and I'll send you my
> > contact info.
> >
> > Pat
> >

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Thanks a ton!  This tells me I need to keep looking for the right
parameter to adjust and there is hope yet.  I would assume state charge
shouldn't affect the amount of braking force, just not a good idea to
stuff energy into a full battery, but I assume the controller doesn't
stop one from trying.  
-Garret

Keith wrote:
"Yes I had a similar set up on a trike and my regen would bring me to a
complete stop on a steep hill.  I was running a 6:1 gear ratio an e-tec
and had the regen set to only 50%.  the trike weithed about 250lbs and
so do I and it was like slamming on the brakes when I hit regen."

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
If you look closely, the version with battery backup uses an SW series
inverter not a GT series, which takes a 48 volt battery bank.  It
doesn't work all that well honestly.... for backup power it's great,
and it can sell solar power to the grid fine (with the addition of
some extra disconnect units, since it lost the UL certification for
the internal transfer switch), but it tends to kill the batteries
fairly quickly because it keeps them at float voltage all night,
slowly boiling all the water out, and using a not insignificant amount
of power to do it.  For battery backup PV, the Outback inverters are
better, IMHO, because they drop into a zero battery current mode at
nighttime, and only float charge the battery for an hour or two a day
instead of 12 hours or more.

Z


On 6/25/07, Brandon Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/25/learn.asp
This page shows it's possible to use the inverter with a backup
source, which would be the battery pack.  I dont know how well this
would work but I'm sure it's possible.

--
Brandon Kruger
http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/
http://cafepress.com/altfuel

On 6/25/07, Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Remember, the Xantrex inverter (like all grid-tie inverters) is
> designed to only operate if the grid is up -- it automatically shuts
> down when the grid goes down, so no backup power.  The software for it
> is also assuming a limited DC input, so I'm not sure what it would do
> with an unlimited power source -- you might need a controller on the
> DC input that adjusts the DC voltage the inverter gets to trick the
> inverter into thinking the battery is a solar array....
>
> As far as legality.... most utility companies would have no idea what
> to make of it.  California, New Jersey, and some in Colorado might,
> but elsewhere, most companies have no clue what UL1741 is.
>
> Z
>
> On 6/25/07, Brandon Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > This may not work for EVs under 200V or so, but a Xantrex grid-tie
> > solar inverter connected to a DC controller would allow you to feed
> > power into your home or the grid from your battery pack (peak hours)
> > and it would serve as a backup power supply.  The only problems I see
> > are: it requires <200VDC battery pack, and it may face legality
> > issues.
> >
> > http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/172/p/968/pt/2/product.asp
> >
> > --
> > Brandon Kruger
> > http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/
> > http://cafepress.com/altfuel
> >
> >
> > On 6/24/07, Pat Galliher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I get fans from about 2" up to about 6" from a lot of different equipment.
> > > Most are 12V some are 24V. I don't think there are any DC/DC converters. I
> > > can't see where they would be used.
> > >
> > > Almost everything that comes in has a sheet metal case. Some of the larger
> > > pieces are only 15" x 18" approximately. Is that large enough to put to 
use?
> > > Some of the cases are aluminum as is some of the extrusions. The biggest
> > > problem is most of the stuff isn't over 18" long.
> > >
> > > I would think the chargers might have some potential. All of the batteries
> > > are six or twelve volts so the chargers are going to fit someone's
> > > application. I'm going to check a bit further, but some may be charging up
> > > to 240 volts. But as someone noted, it's probably not at a very high
> > > amperage. Here is a link to the type of UPSs I get
> > > 
http://apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SURT3000RMXLT-1T
> > > F5&tab=models . During the course of the year, I probably see most of the
> > > UPSs that this company makes.
> > >
> > > I can look around tomorrow and see if I have anything that might work for
> > > you (or get you started). Send me an email of the forum and I'll send you 
my
> > > contact info.
> > >
> > > Pat
> > >
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Lee Hart wrote:

Use the same laminations for 2, 4, 6, or whatever number of poles
they want. They just wind the same basic stack to produce the
desired number of poles.


Dale Ulan wrote:
Yes, but you can wind a motor to have either 4 poles or 2 poles depending on how a few external connections are wired.
Sure; for example, furnace blower motors used to have windings for 2, 4, and 6 poles, giving you 3 different fan speeds. But that added cost; now they use one big winding with taps for 120vac, 180vac, and 240vac. The motor is always powered by 120vac, so picking the 180vac or 240vac taps means it can't get up to full speed; it runs at high slip and low speed (and low efficiency). Rotten for efficiency, but the furnace manufacturers wrote the efficiency standards so they *don't* include the electricity consumed!
Yes; it would be exactly like a typical DC motor with a 36-slot armature. :-) 


Almost, but if you excited each winding with a sinewave, it wouldn't
be quite that...
You really would rather not have to produce sinewaves. They are hard to make, add cost, and lower efficiency in your inverter. They do it because most AC motors are already optimized for sinewave operation, and they don't want to bother to redesign the motor for something else.
When DC motors were invented, they knew that a simple commutator could only generate square waves. So, they designed the motors to work efficiently on square waves. Since the best examples of both AC and DC motors have the same efficiency (90+%), both strategies lead to perfectly workable solutions.
When high-power solid state switches first became available in the 1960's, it was logical to simply use them to replace the brushes and commutator in a DC motor. There were lots of working examples where (say) 12 SCRs replaced a 12-bar commutator. Today's "brushless DC" (really synchronous AC) motors are usually derived from the square-wave school of design. The switched reluctance and "chorus" motors are other efforts in this area. 


Yes, but of course with semiconductors, the average current is not as
important (well it is but not the first thing to check...). The peak
current is. If the electronics were to be done using 90 ampere switches, the peak current would have to be below that. That's where 
driving it sine-wave would make somewhat more sense to me.
Go through the numbers, and you'll find that a sinewave drive puts *higher* stress levels on the semiconductors.
Synthesizing a sinewave also causes high switching losses, and drives up the cost of your power semiconductors because they have to switch faster. 

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Ian Hooper wrote:
Out of interest, I'm building a motor speed controller at present and I will have to agree that it can be done quite a lot cheaper than the price of the Curtis units. They are a 20 year old design now, and semiconductor technology (both transistors and microcontrollers) has improved quite a lot in the last few decades. e.g you can now get individual MOSFETs with about 1/10th the on-resistance of those used in the Curtis controllers.
Really? A Curtis 1221 controller's power section has 32 220uf 200vdc electrolytic capacitors, 36 BUZ30A 200v 21a 0.1 ohm MOSFETs, and 12 200v 40a SR4180R-C diodes. Look up the prices, and add up the cost. Now tell me what you would use in their place that's any cheaper. 

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
gulabrao ingle wrote:

I was reading the other day of a car known as the Solectria Sunrise,
but surprisingly there is no information available about the
specifications of the car or how it could get 375 miles on a single
charge.


Solectria is out of business, so most of what you find is old information.


Where can I get detailed information, blue prints, technical
specifications or even some hi-res photos of this car?
From me! :-) I'm heading a team that is making a kit-car version of the Sunrise. 


Are there any owners of this car on the list at present?
Yes, a number were sold to individuals. Stephen Taylor's is on the web at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/655 


What was so special about the construction of this car that it could get 375
miles on a charge?
The Sunrise is an example of what Amory Lovins calls a "hypercar". The entire chassis and body are carbon fiber composites, very light and strong, weighing about 400 lbs. It was designed from scratch as an EV, and so avoided the usual losses and inefficiencies of the "make do" parts you find in vehicles converted from ICEs. The range with ordinary lead-acid batteries was around 100 miles on a charge. For the range records, they used Ovonic nimh batteries (the same ones GM used in the EV1 and Chevy S10 EV pickups). 


How costly was it?


About $100,000.


Any information, pointers or links would be appreciated.
Here are the specs for the original Sunrise (in parentheses), and our version that we are building now: 

Dimensions
    length 176"
    width 74"
    height 52"
    wheelbase 104"
Weights
    curb weight without batteries 1600 lbs (1433 lbs)
    payload 750 lbs (682 lbs)
    GVWR 3400 lbs (2979 lbs)
Drive system
    100kw Netgain WarP 9" DC motor
    Cafe Electric Zilla 2K controller
    direct drive to rear wheels, via 5.14:1 differential
    (50kw Solectria AC induction motor, inverter, driving
        front wheels via Geo Metro transaxle)
Batteries
    central battery tunnel slides out the front for easy servicing
    size 120"L x 12"H x 15"W, 1500 lbs, holds up to 24 T-145 6v 240ah
        (24 GM/Ovonic nimh, 12v 90ah)
Suspension
    front: independent, double A-arm, from 1989-97 Ford Thunderbird
        (1994 Geo Metro McPherson strut)
    rear: independent, double A-arm, from 1989-97 Ford Thunderbird
        (1994 Dodge Neon McPherson strut)
    coil springs with air bags
    power rack and pinion steering (manual rack and pinion)
Brakes
    power disk or drum, with/without ABS, from T'bird donor car
    (manual, Geo Metro front disk, Dodge Neon drum rear)
    regenerative braking
Tires
    Goodyear Integrity P185/65R15, low rolling resistance
    (13" Geo Metro tires)
Performance
    0-30 mph: 3 seconds (6 seconds)
    0-60 mph: 8 seconds (17 seconds)
    range, lead-acid: 100 miles at 30 mph, 60 miles at 60 mph
        (nimh: 400 miles at 30 mph, 200 miles at 60 mph)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hi Garret,

It has been my experience that SOC does affect it.  I
use the Sevcon regen with the sep-ex motor.  With
batteries fresh off the charger, I get little braking
force, or sometimes a overvoltage fault when braking. 
The controller should limit regen torque to keep the
voltage within the limits of the battery and the
control itself.

Jeff 


--- Garret Maki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Thanks a ton!  This tells me I need to keep looking
> for the right
> parameter to adjust and there is hope yet.  I would
> assume state charge
> shouldn't affect the amount of braking force, just
> not a good idea to
> stuff energy into a full battery, but I assume the
> controller doesn't
> stop one from trying.  
> -Garret
> 
> Keith wrote:
> "Yes I had a similar set up on a trike and my regen
> would bring me to a
> complete stop on a steep hill.  I was running a 6:1
> gear ratio an e-tec
> and had the regen set to only 50%.  the trike
> weithed about 250lbs and
> so do I and it was like slamming on the brakes when
> I hit regen."
> 
> 



       
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Garret Maki wrote:

Has anyone else used regen on a Sevcon Millipak Perm. Mag. Controller?
An associate used one with an aircraft generator. It produces modest amounts of regen. The transistors for doing regen in this controller are about 1/4th the size of the ones for motoring, so the maximum regen current is about 1/4th as much, too. Perhaps that is what you are seeing? 
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---

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