EV Digest 6967
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Nobody wants my money.. (rant for the day)
by "Alan Brinkman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: VS: Re: Cheap
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Wayland Invitational ramblings (Re: Nobody wants my money.. )
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Nobody wants my money.. (rant for the day)and More
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Wire Inductance?
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Wire Inductance?
by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Wire Inductance?
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Would you build if you could buy?
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Wire Inductance?
by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Cheap
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Cheap
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Wire Inductance?
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: DC to DC input circuit breaker trips
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Nobody wants my money.. (rant for the day)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Cheap
by "Shaun Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Sunrise for a Force?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: I have an IDEA!
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Building A Motor
by "Rob Hogenmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Weird Questions
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Would you build if you could buy?
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Sunrise for a Force?
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: n00b in your midst
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Hybrids done right, Re: Would you build if you could buy?
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Infrared coating and airsuspension packagesSubjects for faqs
by "Tom Carpenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Ian,
E-mail Advanced DC with your inquiry. I received a nice reply and all I
wanted was motor specs and data, and I bought my Advanced DC motor from
a third party, not from them or their dealer. I received a reply in a
few days.
I read a book by an author who travels and writes, and this book was on
Australia. What a magnificent country, I could not put the book down!
Alan Brinkman
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ian Hooper
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 1:50 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Nobody wants my money. (rant for the day)
So over the space of the last week or so I've been trying to buy some
motors and batteries. Who'd have thought it'd be so hard?!
ThunderSky..
Trying to order 40x 160Ah LFPs for the MX5. I emailed my contact
(Brandon), no reply. Used their online order form, no reply. Phoned
them, it rang out and hung up on me. *sigh*
Advanced DC..
I was hoping to talk to them about becoming a reseller for their
motors in Australia, since they're very under-represented over here.
Currently there just one guy over east (~2000 miles from here). So I
phoned them, left a voice mail, no reply. Used their online contact
form, no reply. Phoned them and left another voice mail, no reply.
It's a pity neither of these companies have much competition - maybe
that's why they don't worry too much about customer service..
End rant, thank you for listening ;)
-Ian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jukka and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: jukka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
:
>> On 6/28/07, Jukka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Managing a 200 ah cell is not that expencive. With 3kw
>>> charger a complete system is about 20% of the whole
>>> cost. And when integrated in to the cell structures in
>>>mass production even much less.
>>> I could estimate that ev hobbyist can get away with 10
>>> 000 USD with already boxed and complete system in 2009
>>> (180v200ah+bms+3kw charger). For now it's available
>>> for beta testers and some vehicles are on the roads
>>> already. We make 1 system/month for evaf.org members.
>Current setups are 76,8v350ah for Elcats. I know at least
>>> one user who is in silent mode on the list.
That must be one interesting Elcat!! I too would
like to hear about it. As it should get under 75wthrs/mile,
the usable range would be 150+ miles!
As a 77vdc pack setup at 350amphr sounds real good
to me, how much does it weigh, cost, peak amp? For a
200amphr version?
I assume you can't sell it here. Who is the US rep
and will you sell yours thru him?
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I knew you were coming and threw that line in especially for you, although
the new guy from Alaska is also welcome. I look forward to seeing you. I
have not been back to Alaska since I moved away at the age of 3. My dad
lived there for years though, so if he comes to the track he might have some
fun reminiscing with you.
damon
From: MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Wayland Invitational ramblings (Re: Nobody wants my money.. )
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 11:48:55 -0800
Damon, how'd you know I was coming down and bringing my whole family?
Boy are they a hungry crowd. What a great deal, free food and lodging.
Just what EVery EV family could hope for at the Wayland Invitational. Just
kidding about crashing your party though. My Mother-In-Law lives 2.1 miles
from the track so we're set. I'll see ya'll there.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thursday, June 28, 2007 9:49 am
Subject: Wayland Invitational ramblings (Re: Nobody wants my money.. )
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
<snip a bit>
>
> BTW - if someone is looking for an air mattress to crash on and a
> few free
> hot meals feel free to contact me. I give first preference to
> anyone from
> Alaska since that is where I was born:-)
>
> damon
_________________________________________________________________
Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I felt that the torch had been passed to me.
> Well, not only me, Jerry, later Lee. A damn BIG torch, I can't do it alone.
Don't worry Bob, you're not alone on the Least Coast. We got yur back.
> Jerry is up to his ears with the Freedom Project and Lee stepped in to start
> on bringing Sunrise past the shell body we bought on E Bray. Lee hauled it
> up to MN from FLA, I went along, tried to help Lee drive the trailer rig
> down and back to FLA, up to MN. Had Lee trapped in the car for daze, to
> learn about why it isn't a drop to gether thing, an EV controller. Was a fun
> trip, dispite my driving Lee's car over a curb in the dark, and the repairs
> it entailed on the road to FIX it. Sigh! We made it back to MN from Tampa,
> BOY! that'sa long drive, in two daze from sweltering Tampa to snow flurries
> outside the Twin Cities!
Bob, you can't have all the fun. Let us know when you need some help.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is "inductance" and this talk about wrapping wires around each
other to avoid it?
What is the purpose of stopping this "inductance"?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 2007-06-28 at 17:15 -0400, Joseph T. wrote:
> What is "inductance" and this talk about wrapping wires around each
> other to avoid it?
>
> What is the purpose of stopping this "inductance"?
Here's the way I think of inductance:
Inductance acts as if giving the electrical current running through a
conductor more "mass" and therefore more "inertia." Just like with
pushing a heavy but free-rolling object, this inertia makes a difference
when trying to change the electrical current flow or rolling speed of
our heavy object. As high inertia causes an initial force that resists
change in motion (starting or stopping), high inductance creates a
similar force in volts, that opposes change in current. But instead of
mechanical energy stored in an object's mass, inductance works because
of potential energy stored in magnetic fields that form around
conductors. How you shape and space the conductors, and their proximity
to ferrous metals, has an effect on this inductance.
When you try to immediately stop the flow of current (turning a
transistor off or opening a switch), the inductance can cause the
voltage to spike, just like the high instantaneous force caused by the
heavy object hitting a wall, which may be orders of magnitude higher
than the forces that were applied to get it moving. As with the wall,
the high instantaneous voltages can cause damange.
Consider "water hammer", where water is doing the same thing in poorly
built plumbing, with the resulting pressure spikes potentially causing
damage to valves and fittings.
--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does wrapping wires with equal but opposite currents (positive and
negative) together really make a difference on inductance?
On 6/28/07, Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Thu, 2007-06-28 at 17:15 -0400, Joseph T. wrote:
> What is "inductance" and this talk about wrapping wires around each
> other to avoid it?
>
> What is the purpose of stopping this "inductance"?
Here's the way I think of inductance:
Inductance acts as if giving the electrical current running through a
conductor more "mass" and therefore more "inertia." Just like with
pushing a heavy but free-rolling object, this inertia makes a difference
when trying to change the electrical current flow or rolling speed of
our heavy object. As high inertia causes an initial force that resists
change in motion (starting or stopping), high inductance creates a
similar force in volts, that opposes change in current. But instead of
mechanical energy stored in an object's mass, inductance works because
of potential energy stored in magnetic fields that form around
conductors. How you shape and space the conductors, and their proximity
to ferrous metals, has an effect on this inductance.
When you try to immediately stop the flow of current (turning a
transistor off or opening a switch), the inductance can cause the
voltage to spike, just like the high instantaneous force caused by the
heavy object hitting a wall, which may be orders of magnitude higher
than the forces that were applied to get it moving. As with the wall,
the high instantaneous voltages can cause damange.
Consider "water hammer", where water is doing the same thing in poorly
built plumbing, with the resulting pressure spikes potentially causing
damage to valves and fittings.
--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With the recent threads of people wanting to build their own hybrids I can't
help but ask myself why? This is as I look out at my 2001 Honda Insight
that I bought brand new and still love. I always wonder why these hybrid
folks want to roll their own when they can just go out and buy one straight
from the factory. I know the main reason is because they want to build a
plug in hybrid. Still, I am doubtfull that they can come up with something
anywhere close to as good as the hybrids that can't be plugged in but can be
purchased at a dealers lot.
It leads me to the question of what you would do if you could buy a factory
EV. Let's say it was like the hybrids that you can buy now that come at a
premium. I think the hybrid system on a Honda usually costs about $4000.
It's hard to say exactly because they usually throw in a bunch of upscale
options as well to kind of hide some of the cost, but let's go with that
marketing model. If you could buy a factory built Civic, Accord, Camary,
S10 truck etc... that was just like it's ICE counterpart, but you had to
pay a premium for, what would you buy, and how much more would you be
willing to pay? Would that be the end of EVs as conversions, or would the
type of people that haunt this list rather continue to roll their own?
I know for me, I would love to have a nice mid size sedan and would gladly
pay up to a $10,000 premium, but only if it had 150 - 200 mile range.
Although I certainly don't need this much range everyday, it is a reflection
of some of the longer trips I would still want to be able to take. If it
only had a 50 - 100 mile range that would make it more of a specialty car
that I'm not sure I would be willing to pay any kind of premium for.
damon
_________________________________________________________________
Picture this share your photos and you could win big!
http://www.GETREALPhotoContest.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 2007-06-28 at 17:44 -0400, Joseph T. wrote:
> Does wrapping wires with equal but opposite currents (positive and
> negative) together really make a difference on inductance?
>
Yes, and according to the article that Lon Hull posted yesterday,
splitting each conductor into several insulated strands and interweaving
them helps even more!
http://www.ppminc.com/Does_Twisting_Matter2.pdf
The equal but opposing magnetic fields from each side of the circuit are
better coupled to the opposite wire, helping to cancel out the effect.
Here's a question ... a Faraday-style homopolar motor operates because
the magnetic field goes around a conductor in one direction for a given
direction of current flow. So... Assuming the current only flows one
direction (not AC), does it make a difference which direction you
twist? :-)
--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jukka wrote:
> When a cell fails and "shorts" (Li-Ion that is) it does not
> short completely at every case. The resistance might also
> just build up in a way that it generates few amps of leaking.
Yes, this is possible. Let me restate my position as being that it is
economically impractical to design a massively parallel cell arrangment such
that any single failed cell can be detected and removed from service
automatically.
If a cell fails catastrophically shorted, a fusible link between the cell and
the rest of the module is a simple, robust means of automatically disconnecting
the cell so that a serious "event" does not result as the remaining cells
discharge into it at a high rate.
It does not protect against every failure mechanism. A cell that fails shorted
internally (a common/likely failure mechanism for spirally wound cells such as
the common laptop types) could generate enough localised heating even after
being disconnected from the rest of the module to damage neighbouring cells or,
depending on the cell chemistry and surrounding materials, start a fire.
It is impractical to consider fitting each and every cell with a temperature
sensor, and anything less will fail to detect some of these cell failures. At
least one company is approaching this problem by embedding the cells in a
thermally conductive and/or phase change material, such that heat is
distributed more evenly throughout the module/pack and so heating may be
detected with a practical number of sensors. It sounds as if TS's internal
construction may achieve a similar result.
> How you fix that ? It eats some capacity from that bank even
> if you open the main contactors.
And that is exactly the sort of behaviour that makes it practical to detect
such a condition with module-level monitoring rather than economically
infeasible monitoring of each individual cell. Anything that can be detected
by monitoring the module constructed of a large number of paralleled cells is
viable; it is when monitoring each individual cell is contemplated that it
becomes impractical.
> By stressing cells with even a bit higher load you are eating
> cells faster. They wear off. That bank of cell will fail (if
> no other failures happen in the other banks) first.
Yes, I expect this is true, but I have doubts that it is of much practical
significance. Consider a module consisting of 50 paralleled cells; if 1 cell
fails, the remaining 49 carry 50/49 or about 102% of their original load; just
how much faster do the cells wear out when cycled at +/-2% of the current? The
discussion gets confusing since we use 'cell' to refer to both the individual
cells within such a massively parallel structure and the structure itself in
the case of the TS "cells" for instance. Clearly, you cannot get inside a TS
"cell" to monitor and detect the failure of individual cells within it, so your
battery packs are not at all immune to this precise failure mechanism.
> No
> wonder these packs are warrantied only to 100 000 miles.
>
> 200 miles/charge
> 100 000/200 = 500 cycles. :P
But this is unrealistic; how many of us drive 200mi every time we get in our
vehicles? If the lifetime average is nearer to 50mi/day (still probably on the
high side), this requires 2000 days or about 10 years at roughly 200 working
days/year. Will the battery die of old age/calendar life before it wears out?
> Managing a 200 ah cell is not that expencive.
But you aren't managing a 200Ah cell, you are managing a 200Ah *array* of
paralleled smaller cells, aren't you? In your case the array is assembled by
TS and placed in a nice box that they call a "cell", and which you then manage.
This really comes back to what I was trying to convey; it is economically
viable to manage the module of paralleled cells, but it is impractical to try
to manage each individual cell within the array. If one buys a pre-assembled
array (such as a TS "cell"), then they are limited to managing at the module
level since they don't have access to the individual cells inside; if one
constructs their own array, they must decide what protections/monitoring will
be provided at the cell level and what will be provided at the module level.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shaun Williams wrote:
> Do you think it would need to be this complicated? I was thinking that
> a simple voltage comparison between modules under load would be
> sufficient. Once again more testing is required but this might
> requires quite a few cells to get an idea of what should work.
Yes, a scheme that compares the behaviour of the modules in the pack to
each other and flags those that behave sufficiently differently might
well be enough.
Clearly, this requires a central 'brain' that has knowledge of each
module in the string.
The cell impedance approach may seem more complicated, but cell
impedance is actually a metric used by some/many fuel gauging ICs and
might therefore be easier to implement using off-the-shelf parts. It
may be advantageous to build a system such that each module has the
ability to self-diagnose without relying on some central brain to
provide that feature.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Here's a question ... a Faraday-style homopolar motor operates because
the magnetic field goes around a conductor in one direction for a given
direction of current flow. So... Assuming the current only flows one
direction (not AC), does it make a difference which direction you
twist? :-)"
Does anyone know the answer??
On 6/28/07, Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Thu, 2007-06-28 at 17:44 -0400, Joseph T. wrote:
> Does wrapping wires with equal but opposite currents (positive and
> negative) together really make a difference on inductance?
>
Yes, and according to the article that Lon Hull posted yesterday,
splitting each conductor into several insulated strands and interweaving
them helps even more!
http://www.ppminc.com/Does_Twisting_Matter2.pdf
The equal but opposing magnetic fields from each side of the circuit are
better coupled to the opposite wire, helping to cancel out the effect.
Here's a question ... a Faraday-style homopolar motor operates because
the magnetic field goes around a conductor in one direction for a given
direction of current flow. So... Assuming the current only flows one
direction (not AC), does it make a difference which direction you
twist? :-)
--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Evan Tuer wrote:
> The NG series can have problems with low supply voltage, this can
> result in overheating. I wonder if the current limiting or some
> protection circuit is being confused by the sudden change in supply
> voltage or excessive noise.
I suspect the issue is simply/largely that the input voltage is marignal
and sags when the throttle is pressed. The Zivan's input current
increases at the input voltage sags and so it will blow the input
fuse/circuit breaker. Replacing the fuse/breaker with a higher rated
one may simply result in the failure of the next weakest link, letting
the smoke out of the Zivan.
It may be possible to have the Zivan reprogrammed to reduce its output
power/current, which will reduce the input power/current
proportionately. Ideally you would want the Zivan reprogrammed to limit
the input current to a reasonable maximum as the input voltage sags, but
I don't know that the Zivan has this ability.
Alternatively, add another battery or two to bring the pack voltage up;
136V sounds like 17 8V modules (and 8Vers are notorious for their sag
under even modest loads). One more gets you to a more common 144V
level; if that isn't enough for the Zivan, adding 2 for 152V might be.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ian Hooper wrote:
> I was going to use a WarP in my conversion until deciding to go
> direct drive, and in the MX5 (Miata) it works much better using two
> 6.7s because they fit down the transmission tunnel. (NetGain
> don't do anything < 8")
>
> As for reselling, NetGain already have a very good reseller network
> in Australia so not much point me trying as well!
You might try contacting D&D Motors: <http://www.ddmotorsystems.com/>
and see if you can get a distributorship from them. These are the guys
that founded ADC (D&D started after ADC was sold to Kinetek. They are
focused on motors in the 6.7" size and down and do have motors with DE
bearings, not just GC/NEV stuff.
Sounds like an interesting conversion, I look forward to hearing how it
progresses.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gentlemen,
I thank-you for your time. This has been fantastic.
When I first posted here I was clueless.
I now have a clear understanding of what it is I need to experiment
with and that gives me a guide as to how much money to spend
initially. I'll be experimenting with a few cells to work out the
mechanical issues etc and then we'll see. I already have an AVR micro
set-up monitoring my AGM batteries so I'll be going with the "central
brain" approach for now.
There isn't much room on the calendar for this amount of work so
progress will be slow but it will be fun!
I can't thank-you all enough.
Regards,
Shaun
www.electric-echo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Even if the dimensions were the same, which they are not, the Force is a
unibody design. Once you remove the body, there is nothing left.
> Can a Sunrise body be fitted onto a Solectria Force?
> If so, I'd sure like the weight reduction, improved
> aerodynamics, and rust-free body design!
>
>
> Any comments regarding the feasibility would be
> appreaciated.
>
> Best regards,
> Todd Martin
> 1997 Solectria Force
> FVEAA
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated
> for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
> http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think you are getting your units confused and/or perhaps not remembering
correctly.
The battery pack weighs 450 kgs (1,000 lbs).
The car weighs 1600+ lbs, NOT inculding the battery. Total weight of the
vehicle (including batteries) is 2690 lbs. This is from Tesla's website:
http://www.teslamotors.com/engineering/tech_specs.php
> On the discovery channel Tesla motors said their battery pack only
> weighed 412 pounds. Where did you get 1000? The whole car weighs only
> 1600.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 14:42
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: I have an IDEA!
>
> There are over 7000 laptop batteries in the Tesla, that weighs about
> 1000 pounds.
> They use a liquid cooling system to keep the laptop batteries from
> overheating.
>
> Mike - is that $29k calculation about what other companies are charging
> for their stuff?
>
> Last I heard, Valence wanted $1200 for a single automotive lithium ion
> battery (and you'd need at least 12, never mind the charging/balancing
> and other maintenance equipment)
>
> I think I'll let the folks with more development sponsors do the
> development work.
> Then again, who knows? in 5 years, Phoenix Motors may have a car for
> sale at the 30k mark, which is affordable for some people (um, not me).
>
> You could probably pick up batteries from one of those (wrecked)
> vehicles for a reasonable price....
>
>
> Ed Cooley
>
>
>
>
>
> Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 06/27/2007 23:39
> Please respond to
> ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>
>
> To
> ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> cc
>
> Subject
> RE: I have an IDEA!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Those are only 2.4 Amp hour packs. Four in series would give you a 144V
>
> 2.4AH pack. For a typical size conversion if you assume
> you want 15KWh pack, you might get away less because of the weight
> reduction, but say 15KWh. You would need 43 parallel strings of
> 4-series batteries. At $169 each that would be 43 x 4 x $169 = $29,068.
> Thats not be cheap, but it would work. ;-)
>
> Mike,
> Anchorage, Ak.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Behalf Of Joseph T.
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 5:06 PM
>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> Subject: I have an IDEA!
>>
>>
>> I just got this idea and it probably won't work!
>>
>> How about I take 4 36 volt DeWalt battery packs and use them in an
>> electric car!Then, I'll program the charger not to charge them all the
>> way to 100%. I'll need to either have a battery balancer or tend to
>> each cell to make sure that they are balanced.
>>
>> Can someone please point out to me why this won't work?
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Any good websites on teading how to build a motor?
God bless
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't believe yo will get anywhere near your goal, in fact I believe you
will end up with lower fuel economy over all.
I gather that you are trying to do this as cheaply as possible? That
pretty much means Lead-Acid batteries.
It takes about 800 lbs of Lead-Acid batteries to give the same range as
one(1) gallon of gas.
SInce you are not removing your existing ICE system, where are you going
to put 800 lbs worth of batteries, plus motor, etc?
Can your car handle the additional 1100+ lbs of weight?
Have you considered what hualing around an extra 1/2 ton will do to your
fuel economy when you are NOT running the electric motor? Your ICE will
have to work much harder just to accelerate, to drive around at city
speeds, etc.
I'd guess that the only time you will see better fuel economy is on trips
that last at least 30 miles, but less than 60 miles.
Less than 30 miles, the extra fuel used for low speed traveling and
acceleration will offset the gains. More than 60 miles and the batteries
will be empty and you will just be hualing around a 1/2 ton of dead
weight.
So unless every trip you take is in that sweet spot, you are going to end
up with low mileage than you currently get. Plus you will be wearing out
the vehicle much faster due to all of the extra weight. This is hard on
the suspension, brakes, tires, bearings, etc.
> I thought I might take a moment to explain the basis of a few questions
> I've asked, as they might seem a little weird.
>
> What I'm hoping to build is an EV-Hybrid.
>
> The Concept.
> Use an existing gas powered vehicle (in my case a 2007 Ford Fusion) to
> propel the vehicle up to 60mph (legal highway speed in my state).
>
> Once reaching 60mph, flip the electric motor on to maintain 60mph.
>
> So basically I'm trying to learn the terminology and also understand what
> kind of components I would need to accomplish this project.
>
> Currently I'm thinking of something very simple a on off switch no
> controller, and cut off switch (not sure if that is the right term) when
> the
> brakes are applied, basically like the way cruise control works. I would
> then set my cruise control on the car at 55mph, or whatever to kick in if
> the electric motor became under stress.
>
> This should bump my gas mileage very high, I'm hoping for well over
> 100mpg.
> Obviously this type of setup would not benefit all, but would be a nice
> setup for a commuter that has a fair share of highway traveling/commuting.
>
> You can see some of the things I'm learning/progress at www.7change.com
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 2007/06/28 Thu PM 04:56:57 CDT
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Would you build if you could buy?
With the recent threads of people wanting to build their own hybrids I can't
help but ask myself why? This is as I look out at my 2001 Honda Insight
that I bought brand new and still love. I always wonder why these hybrid
folks want to roll their own when they can just go out and buy one straight
from the factory. I know the main reason is because they want to build a
plug in hybrid. Still, I am doubtfull that they can come up with something
anywhere close to as good as the hybrids that can't be plugged in but can be
purchased at a dealers lot.
It leads me to the question of what you would do if you could buy a factory
EV. Let's say it was like the hybrids that you can buy now that come at a
premium. I think the hybrid system on a Honda usually costs about $4000.
It's hard to say exactly because they usually throw in a bunch of upscale
options as well to kind of hide some of the cost, but let's go with that
marketing model. If you could buy a factory built Civic, Accord, Camary,
S10 truck etc... that was just like it's ICE counterpart, but you had to
pay a premium for, what would you buy, and how much more would you be
willing to pay? Would that be the end of EVs as conversions, or would the
type of people that haunt this list rather continue to roll their own?
I know for me, I would love to have a nice mid size sedan and would gladly
pay up to a $10,000 premium, but only if it had 150 - 200 mile range.
Although I certainly don't need this much range everyday, it is a reflection
of some of the longer trips I would still want to be able to take. If it
only had a 50 - 100 mile range that would make it more of a specialty car
that I'm not sure I would be willing to pay any kind of premium for.
damon
HELLO -- I TO HAVE A HONDA 2001 INSIGHT 240,000 MILES
WITH AN OVER ALL 58 MILES/GAL AVERAGE. THE ONLY REAL MAINTENANCE HAS BEEN 1.
REPLACE AN EXHAST GASKET AND
2. REPLACE THE ROTORS AND BRAKE PADS AT 200,000 MILES
THE REGEN BRAKING DOES MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE. THIS VEHICLE HAS PAID FOR
IT'SELF MORE THAN ONCE
_________________________________________________________________
Picture this  share your photos and you could win big!
http://www.GETREALPhotoContest.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Sunrise for a Force?
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 17:52:43 -0700 (MST)
>Even if the dimensions were the same, which they are not,
>the Force is a unibody design. Once you remove the body,
>there is nothing left.
Surprise Peter, the Sunrise is a uni-body too and
if one attached the lower unibody from the Force or better,
a larger uni-body car/EV, it could be done. But as the
track, wheelbase are too far off it's not viable on a Force.
And you should see the front wheel drive cars
converted to 1 rear wheel to make a 3wheeler that all have
to match one unibody to another new rearend. Just not that
hard.
Of course it's such a better idea to use the new
suspension/chassis, much heavier duty at lower weight so one
can have real 100+ mile range worth of batteries and never
have to worry about it rusting out. And it would probably
take a lot less time, cost doing a whole Sunrise than trying
to make it's body work on another chassis. Kinda like a
beautiful girl riding a pig.
But he could probably sell the Force for good money
and buy a Sunrise as the best solution.
Like Lennon said, there are no problems, only
solutions, and I add, some good, some, oh well!!
Jerry Dycus
>
>> Can a Sunrise body be fitted onto a Solectria Force?
>> If so, I'd sure like the weight reduction, improved
>> aerodynamics, and rust-free body design!
>>
>>
>> Any comments regarding the feasibility would be
>> appreaciated.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Todd Martin
>> 1997 Solectria Force
>> FVEAA
>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Funny - as some others have already indicated before:
it seems that when a HTML message is sent, then some
do get that message, while others only get an indication
of an illegal format....
Below the original message that was sent as HTML, but
which I happened to receive in good order... beats me.
Do I read the email domain correctly as South Africa?
I used to have a colleague from S.A. and the language
is not too different from the Dutch language that is my
mother tongue.
Others have probably already indicated that in the EV Album
the geographic location of the entries can be found, so
you can see where everyone is located, as far as they did
make an entry (guesstimates are about 10% of EVs are in
the album) and if they completed their entry with that data.
Welcome!
Cor van de Water
http://evalbum.com/694
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: 6/28/2007 2:48 AM
Subject: n00b in your midst
Greetings Everyone
This I s my first post to this list and I am very amped to have found
this side.
I have been reading a lot about the technology lately and do think there
is a great (needed) future for it. I have also started developing a
website for my own use about EV.
I would love to hear from you guys/girls.
Regards
John Labrey
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Damon and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Would you build if you could buy?
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:56:57 +0000
>With the recent threads of people wanting to build their
>own hybrids I can't help but ask myself why? This is as I
>look out at my 2001 Honda Insight that I bought brand new
>and still love. I always wonder why these hybrid folks
>want to roll their own when they can just go out and buy
>one straight from the factory. I know the main reason is
>because they want to build a plug in hybrid. Still, I am
>doubtfull that they can come up with something anywhere
>close to as good as the hybrids that can't be plugged in
>but can be purchased at a dealers lot.
I agree the Insight is an excellent investment both
giving the best mileage of any car in the world I know of.
And built of alum, basicly hand built, few made, the first
Hybrid on the US market so in not many yrs of saving a hell
of a lot of gas, you'll probably be able to sell it for more
than you bought it.
It's hard to find any lower overall cost car than an
Insight!! What amazes me is more on this list don't own
them. Had I not gone 3wheel, I'd buy one. Once I make too
much money I'll probably buy some just for investment
purposes.
>
>It leads me to the question of what you would do if you
>could buy a factory EV. Let's say it was like the hybrids
>that you can buy now that come at a premium. I think the
>hybrid system on a Honda usually costs about $4000. It's
>hard to say exactly because they usually throw in a bunch
>of upscale options as well to kind of hide some of the
>cost, but let's go with that marketing model. If you
>could buy a factory built Civic, Accord, Camary, S10 truck
>etc... that was just like it's ICE counterpart, but you
>had to pay a premium for, what would you buy, and how much
>more would you be willing to pay? Would that be the end
>of EVs as conversions, or would the type of people that
>haunt this list rather continue to roll their own?
Except you can't get good EV performance from most
ICE gliders, it shouldn't cost much more for a real hybrid
than an ICE, under 10% more.
Just how much do you thin Detroit will pay for EV
motors, ect? Not much more than mass quanity parts cost so
say a real 4 passenger EV sedan, 2000lbs, would only need a
75kw EV motor with a 25hp ICE/gen used series/parallel. This
costs less than a heavier, big motored ICE does even using
batteries which in the quanity Detroit would buy would only
cost them aout $1.50/lb for lead batts like Hawkers/Orbitals
which for 100 mile range you would need about 1000lbs of. As
an ICE motor/trans costs about $3k, the hybrid set up is not
that much more, less than $1k in a 50 mile EV range hybrid.
These used in the same 30%-80% range and only topped
up at home plugged in could last 5-8 yrs, 40k-80k miles, and
only cost $500 for a replacement as the materials are just
recycled so plenty of profit in them at this low price
figuring $25/batt/10 batts for recycling. Easily lower than
gas costs including electricity.
>
>I know for me, I would love to have a nice mid size sedan
>and would gladly pay up to a $10,000 premium, but only if
>it had 150 - 200 mile range.
That can be had in the Sunrise if you max it out on
lead though 200 miles is really pushing it, probably only at
40 mph steady. But it could easily get 150 mile range on
1800 lbs of GC batts with AC drive. You get a lot of range
when you discharge over 3 hrs or so, a lot more than 1c or
5c!!
Although I certainly don't
>need this much range everyday, it is a reflection of some
>of the longer trips I would still want to be able to take.
>If it only had a 50 - 100 mile range that would make it
>more of a specialty car that I'm not sure I would be
>willing to pay any kind of premium for.
Until Li gets as cheap as lead/kwhr and lasts an
EV's lifetime or at least 20 yrs, you are not going to be
worthwhile in an EV with over 100 mile range for most people
as for much less weight, cost, you can have a small gen and
get unlimited range at 100 mpg if low drag like the Sunrise.
The idea is an EV, not a lead or other metal mine!!
sometimes people just take a tech too far as to not except
viable solutions like trading a $1k, 100 lb gen set for 500
lbs of batts rarely used and 50 extra mile range vs
unlimited range.
In fact for most people, just 50 mile range on EV
would be enough to only use a few gas tanks/yr and save 50%
on battery costs!
That's basicly where I think cars, trucks will end
up, small ICE's and 20-100 mile range EV drive doing all the
low speed work, much of the high speed work. It's the
logical because it's the overall low cost way.
And turn key production is the only way these will
ever be more than a drop in the bucket. Few will convert,
build their own.
Jerry Dycus
>
>damon
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I used this company for my air suspension. They are just down the road from
me in Lansing Mi.
www.airliftcompany.com
It has been working great.
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Ev List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 12:42 PM
Subject: Infrared coating and airsuspension packagesSubjects for faqs
In the past two people have posted
1.
A site that makes glass coatings ofr automotive glass that reduces
infrared (heat) transmission from sunlight to almost zero inside a car
(reducing the air conditioning requirement considerably)
And 2.
2. Low cost air suspension add on packages to increase gliders (motorless
cars used for conversion) weight carrying ability so they can handle the
increased weight of batteries.
Could someone report those two contacts and we could add them to the faq.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming and
the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database:
269.9.12/878 - Release Date: 6/28/2007 5:57 PM
--- End Message ---
