EV Digest 6972
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Setting Curtis Guage for Ni-Cads
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Slightly OT: Painting your EV for less than $100
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: NiMH pack strategy
by Rob&Amy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: electric bicycle - need help - air drag as a function of speed
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: VS: Re: Cheap
by jukka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Toronto Star article -- Electric bike riders razzed by police, cyclists;
These vehicles look like mopeds, but run off a battery and are allowed on bike
paths
by "Beth Silverman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Odyne Corp. Signs Agreement to Provide Its Battery System Technology for
up to 2,000 Cars in Mexico City Fleet
by "Beth Silverman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: electric bicycle - need help
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Throttle strategy and Current Limit
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Trojan costs
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Trojan costs
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Adapter Problem
by Larry Cronk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: electric bicycle - need help
by "Chuck Hays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Controler space
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: electric bicycle - need help
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: electric bicycle - need help
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: electric bicycle - need help
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) Re: Trojan costs
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Adapter Problem
by "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Made the first step recently...
by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Adapter Problem
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Adapter Problem
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Cheap
by jukka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Howdy partners,
I have 14ea STM5-180's 6V's 84V total 700 lbs in my Porsche 914 with a LCD
new Curtis guage across 48V. I used to use the 900R led bargraph version
that was accurate on lead. This new one is adjustable so I tried setting
the high point higher and the low point lower from 1.73V per cell to 1.63V
per cell. It still goes empty within a couple miles, should be about 30
miles. Do folk's that have nicad cars have this problem or what guage do you
recommend? Or how can I adjust the Curtis LCD version?
Have a renewable energy day,
Mark
_________________________________________________________________
Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN
http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now the thinning of rustoleum and roll-on-paint
technique looks interesting posted in this months
hodrodandcustoms, but the most that can be achieved is
a satin finish.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that you can only get a satin
finish. You can get a decent shiny gloss even with rustoleum,
especially darker colors. If you go for brightside you can get this:
http://tinyurl.com/yrcohp
--
www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not sure what you mean. The idea here is that each charger
monitors its own battery (in the case of AGMs) or small string of
batteries (in the NiMH case) and turns itself off when that group is
done. In this way each battery is kept in balance, as it receives a
full charge regardless of how fast or slow its neighbors charge. Its
key that the chargers are fully isolated so they can float relative
to each other and charge the batteries while still in a string.
See the link here (about half way down) for an example of an AGM
implementation:
http://www.econogics.com/Soneil/sonindex.htm
In this case the advantage is that you can run 10-12 $70 chargers at
a cost of $700-$840 instead of a $2-3k fancy charger & balancer
solution.
My question is whether a similar strategy can be employed to keep
NiMH packs balanced while charging?
Rob
On Jun 29, 2007, at 10:15 AM, Joseph T. wrote:
I'm not 100% sure, but I think that it is bad to just have a couple
dozen chargers go off all at once. You'd need a system to control it
all. Are there chargers that can be programed to charge such a
high-voltage yet low-amp-hour pack? Manzanita Micro? Zivan?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you are worried about aero look into zzipper fairings. LR.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 10:11 AM
Subject: Re: electric bicycle - need help - air drag as a function of speed
>
>
>
> >From: James Drysdale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >Subject: Re: electric bicycle - need help
> >Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 21:57:37 +0800
> >
> >G'day Peter,
> >
> >Yeah, last time I checked the local law, powered bicycles could only
> >legally put out a maximum of 200W.
> >But I'm also planning a semi-large trip (one-way 1600 km / 994 miles) in
> >December.
> >As in, long lonely country roads, so it's not like I'll be using it to
> >speed through school zones like a dickhead.
> >
> >Aerodynamic Drag goes up as the cube of your speed.
> >
> >Really? I thought it was the *square* of the speed. Glad you mentioned
> >that. It's good to be proven wrong sometimes.
> >You and the other bloke Mike have been quite helpful.
>
> You were right.
>
> The air drag (force - in pounds, for example) rises as the square of the
> speed.
>
> The POWER required to overcome this drag force rises as the cube of the
> speed, because power is force x velocity. The extra velocity multiplier
> brings the power up to the cube of velocity.
>
> This is an approximation, but a very good approximation for typical
speeds
> of land vehicles.
>
>
> Phil Marino
>
>
> >Thanks.
> >
> >Regards,
> >James Drysdale.
> >
> >
> >
> >Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > > Well, I assume you are aware that such a bicycle won't be legal on the
> >roads?
> > >
> > > Now that we have that niggling detail out of the way. Bicycles have
> > > pretty bad aerodynamics (compared to other vehicles).
> > > Not much of an issue at 20-30kph, but significant at 80 kph.
> > >
> > > 750W will be good up to perhaps 50-60kph on flat level ground with no
> > > wind. Of course getting to this speed will take a while, though
> > > acceleration from 0-25kph should be quite brisk.
> > > Note most human beings can put out almost 750W for a very breif time
> >(less
> > > than a minute?)
> > > The average human can put out about 100 watts for an hour or so, a
very
> > > fit person can produce 200-250 watts for an hour or so.
> > > It takes roughly 200 watts to go 30 kph on flat ground with no wind.
> > > Aerodynamic Drag goes up as the cube of your speed.
> > >
> > > Getting up to 80kph will require at least twice and probably three
times
> > > as much. Figure at least 2,000 watts.
> > >
> > >
> > >> G'day all,
> > >>
> > >> Not an electric automobile, but an electric vehicle nonetheless.
> > >> I'd like to create a hybrid muscle-electric bicycle.
> > >>
> > >> But I need some help.
> > >> 1) Trying to work out how much *power* a specific 750W will actually
> > >> give me.
> > >>
> > >> Power = (force * displacement) / time
> > >> Force = mass * acceleration
> > >> I am stuck, insufficient info and/or knowledge.
> > >>
> > >> 2) To move my fully-laden bicycle up to a speed of 80km/h
> > >> (49.67miles/h), how powerful a motor will I need?
> > >>
> > >> Information I do have......
> > >> mass = 120kg
> > >> desired velocity = 22.2 m/s (80km/h or 49.67 miles/h)
> > >>
> > >> Where I am stuck is in the acceleration & force equations.
> > >> I do not know how much acceleration and max forward velocity I can
> > >> achieve with a 750W motor.
> > >>
> > >> This is the motor in question!!!
> > >>
>
>https://www.electricscooterparts.com/ShoppingCart.asp?ProductCode=MOT-36750
G
> > >> >From this page.
> > >> http://www.electricscooterparts.com/motors.html
> > >> 36volt
> > >> 750watt
> > >> 2500rpm geared down to 420rpm
> > >>
> > >> I realise that there are other factors here that need addressing,
like
> >I
> > >> said, I need help.
> > >> Is it okay to disregard factors such as wind resistance for now?
> > >> Wind resistance increases as the square of the velocity or something
> > >> like that.....
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Cheers all,
> > >> James Drysdale.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don't miss your chance to WIN $10,000 and other great prizes from
Microsoft
> Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0540003042mrt/direct/01/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The range is not that good with Elcat since it uses DC motor. efficiency
is about 70% or less.
350 Ah gets nicely 100 miles with full throttle. With "normal" driving
you could get the 150 miles.
There is not yet 200 ahr version out for Elcat. Only 350/400 and 600 Ahs
are.
The cost of nearly new Elcat (10000 miles in odo) with 350 Ah 76,8V pack
is about 20 000 USD.
Top speed is about 60 mph.
A whole car I can sell. No problem. Actually I have one to sell. I will
release it in the fall this year.
-Jukka
jerryd kirjoitti:
Hi Jukka and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: jukka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
:
On 6/28/07, Jukka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Managing a 200 ah cell is not that expencive. With 3kw
charger a complete system is about 20% of the whole
cost. And when integrated in to the cell structures in
mass production even much less.
I could estimate that ev hobbyist can get away with 10
000 USD with already boxed and complete system in 2009
(180v200ah+bms+3kw charger). For now it's available
for beta testers and some vehicles are on the roads
already. We make 1 system/month for evaf.org members.
Current setups are 76,8v350ah for Elcats. I know at least
one user who is in silent mode on the list.
That must be one interesting Elcat!! I too would
like to hear about it. As it should get under 75wthrs/mile,
the usable range would be 150+ miles!
As a 77vdc pack setup at 350amphr sounds real good
to me, how much does it weigh, cost, peak amp? For a
200amphr version?
I assume you can't sell it here. Who is the US rep
and will you sell yours thru him?
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www6.lexisnexis.com/publisher/EndUser?Action=UserDisplayFullDocum
ent&orgId=101846&topicId=103840033&docId=l:633075079
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.electricdrive.org/index.php?tg=entry&idx=more&article=1528&id
g=1
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yea, check out the Crystalyte motors, particularly the Phoenix Racer
motor using the 4840 controller. This is a 48 volt system bike on a
26 inch rim. Electric Rider carries them all.
http://www.electricrider.com/crystalyte/phoenix.htm
You can get 36 mph on this system using a high pressure racing slick
for low rolling resistence. That's close enough to 40 mph. With a
tailwind or slight downhill grade 40 mph will be easy.
The lighter the bike and rider the faster you can go but with this
motor you should use steel forks or reinforced dropouts. This sucker
will rip up an aluminum fork. A cheap sturdy 26 inch bike would
probably still get you going pretty fast with this system
particularly with a lightweight Li-Po pack.
The only thing about going fast is you gotta make sure the frame is
built to handle the torque of these motors. It's embarrasing to show
off a high speed bike only to have it disintegrate in front of your
friends.
Chip Gribben
ElectroScooterWorks.com
On Jun 29, 2007, at 1:35 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: "Kip C. Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: June 29, 2007 10:03:31 AM EDT
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: electric bicycle - need help
I can't help with the calculations, but I agree that a 750W motor
probably isn't going to get you there at it's rated voltage. I
have however seen video of a guy with a hub motored bike claiming
45 mph performance. Even with a 1000W hub motor, it took a fair
distance to get up past 40 and I don't know what voltage he was
running.
The nice thing about hub motors is that they come in varied
windings that would allow this kind of speed without worrying about
overspeeding. There are dual-wound motors for mixed low end and
high speed performance as well. Crystalyte seems to offer the best
range of choices for that right now.
- Kip
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, Op-amps can source/sink.
And no, that type of control setup will not be fast enough to avoid letting
the precious blue smoke out! You need sub-cycle current limiting unless you
want to be replacing your transistors! (ask me how I know this, or better
yet, don't! ;-)
My designs are all driven by microcontroller, and use the MOSFET as it's own
current shunt. The gate drive is immediately shut off by a comparator
circuit that's triggered when voltage drop across the junction during
conductance exceeds a certain value. This also means that if the
transistors get hot, the voltage drop goes up, and thusly the current
limiting kicks in much earlier.
The output of the comparator also tells the microcontroller which drops the
duty cycle rapidly. This makes a safe controller that can survive even a
short circuit without catastrophic failure.
To avoid the common pitfalls, and lots of blue smoke liberation, study as
much prior art as possible!
Get a subscription to the 4qd members area.... You can study lots of analog
controllers with discrete designs that are easy to understand. It will pay
for itself in frustration and direct $. (unless you happen to have stock
in IRF! ;-)
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chet Fields" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 7:27 AM
Subject: Throttle strategy and Current Limit
I am progressing quite well on my controller design and now have a couple
of specific questions
that you all might be able to help me with.
After reading recently about different throttle behavior I have rethought
the way I am doing it. I
was just letting the level of input from the pot translate into a
percentage of duty cycle (with
current limiting and low voltage just reducing it). However, now I thought
maybe I should approach
it from the angle of the input establishing a desired current level and
then have a circuit that
would compare that to the actual via an op-amp at maximum gain that would
then either charge or
discharge a capacitor through a resistor that would then be the actual
signal for the PWM
percentage. I thought of this as I was designing my regen circuit off of
the brake signal. But I
guess it would also work just as well for the accelerator side as well.
My first question is: Do opamps allow you to sink as well as source the
current? In other words,
when the opamp output is 0v will it drain the capacitor and allow the
voltage to drop?
And the second is this: Will this control be fast enough to limit current
etc. Or should I also
have at a later stage some mechanism that will actually shut off the
output to the gate drive
input when the current exceeds my maxlimits?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Aha!
So maybe you can answer the elusive question of what makes Trojans so good?
Does your new company (in your opinion) make as good a battery as Trojan
does?
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nawaz Qureshi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 7:53 AM
Subject: RE: Trojan costs
FWIW:
I was the head of Engineering at Trojan from 1982 to 1993. Trojan never
had
any patents whatsoever on the batteries or components. In 1993 Trojan got
a
patent on the Mastervent.
Nawaz Qureshi
Vice-President of Engineering
U.S. Battery Mfg. Co.
1675 Sampson Avenue
Corona, CA 92879-1889
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
T: 951-371-8090
Fax: 951-371-4671
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated
simple,
awesomely simple, that's creativity - Charles Mingus
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 7:17 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Trojan costs
comment if you know better.
I was in line at PepBoys talking to a fellow customer who discoverred I
had
an EV thru conversation. He is a bulk battery purchaser for floor
polishers.
Of course he knew that the Trojan is the best battery out there if you
don't want to be replacing them so frequently.
So, I asked what happened to cause the Trojan battery price to skyrocket
(racketeering?) NO.
------------------------------------
He claims that because the Patent on the Trojan's has run out,
Trojan is "giving more to the sales man to keep Deka's out".
------------------------------------
I was quite confused by that comment, as I would think a open patent would
open the market for competition.
Does he mean that, The sales man is allowed to charge a higher margin
whereas it used to be restricted.
Defies logic?
We did get talking about the new battery he wants for his floor polishers:
LiFeSO4 Lithium Iron Sulfate, because they'll have higher power, great
recharge cycles, but it is critical to have a controller per battery,
otherwise if it gets wet, it'll dump all it's power instantly (OH JOY!)
at double the cost of the current Trojan battery, I'll hold off. but I'm
glad there's more battery chemistry development.
If the patent only recently expried, should we be seeing 220 AHr Deka's?
with 2,000 recharges? at competitive prices or other mfg's? anyone in the
battery market loop?
Thanks, Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Or, maybe we can get a group buy going.... I'm am looking for a small
amount (72v for a small 3-wheel EV)... Surely there will be someone, even
just in my area (San Fran) that wants to pool a buy?
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: Trojan costs
Hello Ben,
Several months ago, I call the Trojan battery distributor of which I
bought a pallet load of 50 batteries from him back in 2002. I paid $73.00
each with the old battery exchange at that time. Today I got a quote for
$107.00 for 50 batteries. A pallet load of 50 is the minimum I can
purchase from a distributor, other wise I would have to go to a dealer
which may be up to $137.00 each.
This is $30.00 difference per battery or for 30 batteries, that is $900.00
savings. If I only using 40 batteries or 240 volts, than the extra 10
batteries cost me only $170.00 extra at dealers prices.
Use the extra batteries for a UPS system for your house, or put on a
maintainer and use as spares or replacements.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 8:16 AM
Subject: Trojan costs
comment if you know better.
I was in line at PepBoys talking to a fellow customer who discoverred I
had
an EV thru conversation. He is a bulk battery purchaser for floor
polishers.
Of course he knew that the Trojan is the best battery out there if you
don't want to be replacing them so frequently.
So, I asked what happened to cause the Trojan battery price to skyrocket
(racketeering?) NO.
------------------------------------
He claims that because the Patent on the Trojan's has run out,
Trojan is "giving more to the sales man to keep Deka's out".
------------------------------------
I was quite confused by that comment, as I would think a open patent
would
open the market for competition.
Does he mean that, The sales man is allowed to charge a higher margin
whereas it used to be restricted.
Defies logic?
We did get talking about the new battery he wants for his floor
polishers:
LiFeSO4 Lithium Iron Sulfate, because they'll have higher power, great
recharge cycles, but it is critical to have a controller per battery,
otherwise if it gets wet, it'll dump all it's power instantly (OH JOY!)
at double the cost of the current Trojan battery, I'll hold off. but I'm
glad there's more battery chemistry development.
If the patent only recently expried, should we be seeing 220 AHr Deka's?
with 2,000 recharges? at competitive prices or other mfg's? anyone in the
battery market loop?
Thanks, Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Two things:
I know that copy of SciAm is in our library here at
Thompson Rivers University. Let me know if you
need a good Xerox(tm) of it. Perhaps even a scan,
if you can't find it through a good academic search
engine.
Also, a quick browse through our online catalogue
turns up this gem, which I will have in hand
shortly:
Wilson, D.G., Papadopoulos, J. (2004) Bicycling
Science, 3rd Ed. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press
Interested in the thread because I've decided
to proceed in this direction myself. I've been
looking at the BionX kit -- they're making some
overly optimistic claims but they don't seem to
be as overly optimistic as some others. :)=)}
I'm planning to start with their 350W hub motor
and high-capacity pack, and then upgrade with
a front hub motor as well and more battery oomph
as finances allow. Will have to upgrade the old
Trek 800 as I go along.
What I'm aiming at is getting that EV grin, also
some exercise. I've given up riding the bicycle
in favour of the motorcycle due to the 40 km
commute to and from work. My neighbour is
a hard-core who pedals to work regularly, though.
Going fast would be nice, but I'll settle for being
able to make it up the hill to the U. Having a bit
of a boost to speed up the trip a bit is my aim,
using one or both motors as inclination or
exuberance dictates. I'd like to be able to
hack the trip in 90 minutes, which would be
half an hour quicker than the neighbour's time.
I think if you're looking for sustained 80km/hr
you'd better be building a fully-faired recumbent.
One with an aft-facing stoker position would be
even better -- I remember they were hitting
100 km/hr just on muscle power in the Human
Powered Vehicle races that I followed back in
the late '70s.
Chuck
Kamloops, BC
_________________________________________________________________
Tell us your tech love story in the Summer Lovin Competition for your chance
to win laptop loaded with Windows Vista, Office 2007 and Windows Live
OneCare.
http://www.microsoft.com/canada/home/contests/summerlovin/default.aspx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Phelps
> Maybe it is all as simple as anything but O2 in the box with the
> controller. Maybe carbon dioxide would do the trick...
Yes, keeping oxygen away from the hot contacts is a good thing. But CO2 isn't a
good choice, because it contains oxygen. The arc will tear the CO2 molecule
apart to free the oxygen, which then reacts with the metals anyway.
--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck Hays wrote:
> Also, a quick browse through our online catalogue
> turns up this gem, which I will have in hand
> shortly:
>
> Wilson, D.G., Papadopoulos, J. (2004) Bicycling
> Science, 3rd Ed. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press
This is an excellent resource for anyone working with bicycles (or
bicycle compenents; I bought my copy due to my interest in Electrathon
racing ;^).
Another good reference is "The Bicycle Wheel", by Jobst Brandt
(<http://www.amazon.com/Bicycle-Wheel-3rd-Jobst-Brandt/dp/0960723668>),
though it is focused on (not surprisingly) the wheels themselves.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have scanned my 23 year old xerox copy of this SciAm article. Anyone who
wants it can e-mail me offlist. Over the years I've tried to find official
copies to no avail and have concluded the only way to get one would be to do
like Chuck says and get a copy from the library. So, I have saved you that
trouble.
Chuck Hays wrote:
> I know that copy of SciAm is in our library here at
> Thompson Rivers University. Let me know if you
> need a good Xerox(tm) of it. Perhaps even a scan,
> if you can't find it through a good academic search
> engine.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd really love to electrify a greenspeed....
2 hub motors in the front, pedal the rear wheel....
(yeah, I want a 3c-car too... I have so many irons, and I don't know which
fires to put them in....)
http://www.greenspeed.com.au/
Ed Cooley
"Chuck Hays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
06/29/2007 14:30
Please respond to
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
cc
Subject
RE: electric bicycle - need help
Two things:
I know that copy of SciAm is in our library here at
Thompson Rivers University. Let me know if you
need a good Xerox(tm) of it. Perhaps even a scan,
if you can't find it through a good academic search
engine.
Also, a quick browse through our online catalogue
turns up this gem, which I will have in hand
shortly:
Wilson, D.G., Papadopoulos, J. (2004) Bicycling
Science, 3rd Ed. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press
Interested in the thread because I've decided
to proceed in this direction myself. I've been
looking at the BionX kit -- they're making some
overly optimistic claims but they don't seem to
be as overly optimistic as some others. :)=)}
I'm planning to start with their 350W hub motor
and high-capacity pack, and then upgrade with
a front hub motor as well and more battery oomph
as finances allow. Will have to upgrade the old
Trek 800 as I go along.
What I'm aiming at is getting that EV grin, also
some exercise. I've given up riding the bicycle
in favour of the motorcycle due to the 40 km
commute to and from work. My neighbour is
a hard-core who pedals to work regularly, though.
Going fast would be nice, but I'll settle for being
able to make it up the hill to the U. Having a bit
of a boost to speed up the trip a bit is my aim,
using one or both motors as inclination or
exuberance dictates. I'd like to be able to
hack the trip in 90 minutes, which would be
half an hour quicker than the neighbour's time.
I think if you're looking for sustained 80km/hr
you'd better be building a fully-faired recumbent.
One with an aft-facing stoker position would be
even better -- I remember they were hitting
100 km/hr just on muscle power in the Human
Powered Vehicle races that I followed back in
the late '70s.
Chuck
Kamloops, BC
_________________________________________________________________
Tell us your tech love story in the Summer Lovin Competition for your
chance
to win laptop loaded with Windows Vista, Office 2007 and Windows Live
OneCare.
http://www.microsoft.com/canada/home/contests/summerlovin/default.aspx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Of course they do, how could he say or even think anything different,
especially in a public forum. Of course, iiirc his new company is US
Batteries which most on this list compare very favorably to Trojan.
damon
From: "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Trojan costs
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:20:50 -0700
Aha!
So maybe you can answer the elusive question of what makes Trojans so good?
Does your new company (in your opinion) make as good a battery as Trojan
does?
-Phil
----- Original Message ----- From: "Nawaz Qureshi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 7:53 AM
Subject: RE: Trojan costs
FWIW:
I was the head of Engineering at Trojan from 1982 to 1993. Trojan never
had
any patents whatsoever on the batteries or components. In 1993 Trojan got
a
patent on the Mastervent.
Nawaz Qureshi
Vice-President of Engineering
U.S. Battery Mfg. Co.
1675 Sampson Avenue
Corona, CA 92879-1889
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
T: 951-371-8090
Fax: 951-371-4671
Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated
simple,
awesomely simple, that's creativity - Charles Mingus
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 7:17 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Trojan costs
comment if you know better.
I was in line at PepBoys talking to a fellow customer who discoverred I
had
an EV thru conversation. He is a bulk battery purchaser for floor
polishers.
Of course he knew that the Trojan is the best battery out there if you
don't want to be replacing them so frequently.
So, I asked what happened to cause the Trojan battery price to skyrocket
(racketeering?) NO.
------------------------------------
He claims that because the Patent on the Trojan's has run out,
Trojan is "giving more to the sales man to keep Deka's out".
------------------------------------
I was quite confused by that comment, as I would think a open patent would
open the market for competition.
Does he mean that, The sales man is allowed to charge a higher margin
whereas it used to be restricted.
Defies logic?
We did get talking about the new battery he wants for his floor polishers:
LiFeSO4 Lithium Iron Sulfate, because they'll have higher power, great
recharge cycles, but it is critical to have a controller per battery,
otherwise if it gets wet, it'll dump all it's power instantly (OH JOY!)
at double the cost of the current Trojan battery, I'll hold off. but I'm
glad there's more battery chemistry development.
If the patent only recently expried, should we be seeing 220 AHr Deka's?
with 2,000 recharges? at competitive prices or other mfg's? anyone in the
battery market loop?
Thanks, Ben
_________________________________________________________________
Picture this share your photos and you could win big!
http://www.GETREALPhotoContest.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Because there are so many different transmissions, there are so many
different adaptors. You could contact someone who has made an adaptor
for the same car you are converting through evalbum.com or some
personal blogs.
I couldn't find anyone else who has done a truck like mine.
www.grassrootsev.com has a CD on how to build your own adapter.
I just watched the CD :) not nearly as scary as I thought it would be!
Also what about the shaft coupler, if I make my plate do I need to
make the coupler also or are there stock couplers that can be modified
or something? Or is that something that a machine shop will be able to
do without a problem?
Thanks everyone,
--
TEhben
'hElix EV'
evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ooer Zilla 2K-HV with PHET batteries, that sounds like a rather
interesting conversion!
What's the donor vehicle? What motor are you looking at? Details,
details! ;)
-Ian
On 29/06/2007, at 7:04 PM, Matthew Drobnak wrote:
On Thursday, the 27th, I ordered a Zilla 2k, 300 V
controller....with an estimated 20 week lead time. :-/
The good news is that I'll have a controller that'll kick butt. The
bad news is it will take a while.
Approx lead time on PHET batteries is a month. I've read 2-3 weeks
on the motor. So, by far, this is the longest wait.
On my way to being an EVer,
-Matt
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In the Grassroots video Steve shows you how to use a standard taperlock hub.
Even with the video and lots of other websites I had a hard time
understanding the whole thing. Electro Automotive has everything on file for
my setup, so I ordered through them.
If you have a good grasp of the whole motor, tranny, clutch setup on a
standard ICE the video will probably be enough to make sense to you, but
since I don't have any hands on experience in that realm it still seemed a
bit vague to me.
I would bet that if you could see one go together in person one time it
would seem easy. It's really not a terribly complicated concept, I'm just a
hands on learner who needs to get my hands dirty before it all comes
together for me.
damon
From: "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Adapter Problem
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 11:24:57 -0800
Because there are so many different transmissions, there are so many
different adaptors. You could contact someone who has made an adaptor
for the same car you are converting through evalbum.com or some
personal blogs.
I couldn't find anyone else who has done a truck like mine.
www.grassrootsev.com has a CD on how to build your own adapter.
I just watched the CD :) not nearly as scary as I thought it would be!
Also what about the shaft coupler, if I make my plate do I need to
make the coupler also or are there stock couplers that can be modified
or something? Or is that something that a machine shop will be able to
do without a problem?
Thanks everyone,
--
TEhben
'hElix EV'
evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225
_________________________________________________________________
Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN
http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tehben Dean wrote:
> Also what about the shaft coupler, if I make my plate do I need to
> make the coupler also or are there stock couplers that can be modified
> or something? Or is that something that a machine shop will be able to
> do without a problem?
The coupler for a DC motor should be within the capabilities of a local
machinist, however, your Siemens AC motor has a splined shaft which
complicates things. It looks as if the Siemens shaft is long enough
that it might be an option to cut off the splined section and use a
standard taperlock adapter on the unsplined stub, or you might be able
to buy the coupler from Electro Automotive "off-the-shelf".
It seems your truck likely has a 20R, 21R, 22R or 22RE engine, and
Electro Automotive have adapters for the Toyota trucks with 20R or 22R
engines. At the worst, you might have to send them your flywheel, any
dowels, and one of the bolts (much more feasible than sending the entire
tranny). I would be surprised if you couldn't use one of their stock
20R/22R adapters with your flywheel, or by purchasing a compatible
flywheel from a wrecker. There is a possibility that you might have to
modify the adapter to accept the appropriate pilot bearing/bushing if it
differs from what the Electro Auto adapter assumes (perhaps send the
bearing/bushing to them with the rest of the bits?).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton kirjoitti:
Jukka wrote:
When a cell fails and "shorts" (Li-Ion that is) it does not
short completely at every case. The resistance might also
just build up in a way that it generates few amps of leaking.
Yes, this is possible. Let me restate my position as being that it is
economically impractical to design a massively parallel cell arrangment such
that any single failed cell can be detected and removed from service
automatically.
If a cell fails catastrophically shorted, a fusible link between the cell and the rest of
the module is a simple, robust means of automatically disconnecting the cell so that a
serious "event" does not result as the remaining cells discharge into it at a
high rate.
It does not protect against every failure mechanism. A cell that fails shorted
internally (a common/likely failure mechanism for spirally wound cells such as
the common laptop types) could generate enough localised heating even after
being disconnected from the rest of the module to damage neighbouring cells or,
depending on the cell chemistry and surrounding materials, start a fire.
It is impractical to consider fitting each and every cell with a temperature
sensor, and anything less will fail to detect some of these cell failures. At
least one company is approaching this problem by embedding the cells in a
thermally conductive and/or phase change material, such that heat is
distributed more evenly throughout the module/pack and so heating may be
detected with a practical number of sensors. It sounds as if TS's internal
construction may achieve a similar result.
How you fix that ? It eats some capacity from that bank even
if you open the main contactors.
And that is exactly the sort of behaviour that makes it practical to detect
such a condition with module-level monitoring rather than economically
infeasible monitoring of each individual cell. Anything that can be detected
by monitoring the module constructed of a large number of paralleled cells is
viable; it is when monitoring each individual cell is contemplated that it
becomes impractical.
By stressing cells with even a bit higher load you are eating
cells faster. They wear off. That bank of cell will fail (if
no other failures happen in the other banks) first.
Yes, I expect this is true, but I have doubts that it is of much practical significance. Consider
a module consisting of 50 paralleled cells; if 1 cell fails, the remaining 49 carry 50/49 or about
102% of their original load; just how much faster do the cells wear out when cycled at +/-2% of the
current? The discussion gets confusing since we use 'cell' to refer to both the individual cells
within such a massively parallel structure and the structure itself in the case of the TS
"cells" for instance. Clearly, you cannot get inside a TS "cell" to monitor
and detect the failure of individual cells within it, so your battery packs are not at all immune
to this precise failure mechanism.
You will never distribute the power evenly on the paralled individual
cells. There is just no way to compensate the drain according the cell
internal resistance.
No
wonder these packs are warrantied only to 100 000 miles.
200 miles/charge
100 000/200 = 500 cycles. :P
But this is unrealistic; how many of us drive 200mi every time we get in our
vehicles? If the lifetime average is nearer to 50mi/day (still probably on the
high side), this requires 2000 days or about 10 years at roughly 200 working
days/year. Will the battery die of old age/calendar life before it wears out?
That's the waranty time. Our customers REQUIRE at least 5 yeaqrs of
operation and 1000 cycles with 80% DOD.
Managing a 200 ah cell is not that expencive.
But you aren't managing a 200Ah cell, you are managing a 200Ah *array* of paralleled
smaller cells, aren't you? In your case the array is assembled by TS and placed in a
nice box that they call a "cell", and which you then manage.
Sorry but you are not exactly right here. It is not same. Array with
dozens of paralled cells have different resistance in connections. Also
the assembly size puts the amps going on the end plates uneven lengths
which adds some resistance. Cells nearby the connection to other module
will see a bit higher load IF all cells have same internal resistance.
but since you have already a mixed soup... the effect might not seem to
be noticeable. I thou noticed this by parallering dozens of super caps.
It really mattered.
What is crucial diference is that when you have Li-Ions moving in the
charge/discharge over the electrolyte the Lion can travel inside the one
big cell from 1st pair anode to 5th pair cathode. So you are actually
using one big cell due the shared electrolyte.
Now with several small cells you do not have this extera path. Moving
electrons through outside connections do not offer this way of
balancing. The impedance is not correspondent to capacity.
This really comes back to what I was trying to convey; it is economically viable to
manage the module of paralleled cells, but it is impractical to try to manage each
individual cell within the array. If one buys a pre-assembled array (such as a TS
"cell"), then they are limited to managing at the module level since they don't
have access to the individual cells inside; if one constructs their own array, they must
decide what protections/monitoring will be provided at the cell level and what will be
provided at the module level.
The paralled cell arrays will not last for a long time. More cells you
have more individuals are rowig the boat. The strongest pulls with his
best speed until is exhausted (heated and minor capacity death) and the
other guy who has less power but more stamina has now to row with more
power that it actually is capable of. So the stamina guy actually looses
more power (Lion detoriation method on rushed ions).
During the next rowing contest the stamina guy and power guy have even
greater difference. This will escalate until other drops dead. Then the
situation is out of control. Domino effect will follow. When..??
Dunno... We will see after few years of hundreds of Teslas on the roads.
I wish the best to these pioneers but wishes rarely help against laws of
physics.
individual cell management IS essential for commerzial success.
-Jukka
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
