EV Digest 7000
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Conversion Classes in The Bay?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Stoern Energy
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: the eVette
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Dessicant
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Setting a Battery on Concrete Myth Answered
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Thanks EVDL
by "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Thanks EVDL
by "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Another EV smile
by "Alan Brinkman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV world map
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Danaher Motion (Used to be Kollmorgen) Motors
by "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Hypothetical use of A123 cells
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) The hypothetical A123 pack again (clarification)
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Thanks EVDL
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: temp sensor location
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) article: US$15,000 Carbon Fibre Enertia electric motorcycle to hit
stores in early 2008
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Honda Civic Crankshaft?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Another EV smile
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Voltage sag in CivicWithACord solved
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: The hypothetical A123 pack again (clarification)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Thanks EVDL
by "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Plexiglas enclosures.
by "JOHN P SWEENEY" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi JM,
In the past years there was a >free< 1-day EV conversion
class by Mike Brown and Shari Prange from Electroauto on the day
after the Palo Alto EV show and rally, usually in September/October
so you may want to check out the website of the Silicon Valley
chapter of the EAA:
http://www.eaaev.org/
http://eaasv.org/
I see that the rally is now planned for end August.
It is usually held in the parking lot of the Palo Alto Highschool,
along El Camino Real, corner Embarcadero. This is across from
Stanford Stadium and Town and Country Village shopping mall.
The EV class has been given in a HP building in Cupertino, though
I do not know the plans for this year.
On the EAA site you will find the email address of the chairman
of the SV EAA chapter, Jerry Pohorsky. He will be able to tell
you more about the program and whether Electroauto has time to
give another class this year.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of jmmistrot
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 4:53 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Conversion Classes in The Bay?
Folks,
Thought it might be wise to take a class before starting my own project...
Anyone know of some good resources in the by area?
Thanks,
jm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ROTFLMAO
I was going to post that they'd probably experience a wheel bearing
failure after only 17 miles. The old folks on the list would have got
the joke.
I decided not to waste the bandwidth, now I wish I had.
Obviously these guys are following the Tilly Scam playbook page for page.
> They speculated that the hot lighting destroyed one of the bearings.
> http://www.newsfactor.com/story.xhtml?story_id=01100000CMWK
>
> Apparently it has some quantum/Heinseberg problem. The presence of an
> observer changes the process and it stops working.
>
> Anyhow, I'm only responding to give you some things to say to the guys
> who tell you you need to look into making a Steon powered car.
> The topic's dead.
>
> Danny
>
> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
>
>> it's Steorn. and they crashed hard at the demo. no show. saga continues
>> who knows. what a world
>>
>> Rob Hogenmiller wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone seen the news on the Stoern project? (thoughts on it)
>>>
>>> Free Energy.
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
--
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--- Begin Message ---
First of all, there is nothing "inherently unsafe" about three wheelers
per se. There are unsafe three wheeled designs, just like there are
unsafe four wheeled designs. But that is because of poor design choices,
not because three wheelers are "inherently unsafe"
A properly designed three wheeler, either Delta or Tadpole, will slide
before it tips. Properly designed they can pull over 1G in the corners
as well as accelerating/braking.
If you don't have a rear caster wheel, then under certain circumstances
your design might be unsafe (it can tip over backwards)
Also, FWIW, if you are planning on selling plans and/or kits, you should
advise your clients to check their local DMV on whether or not it can be
registered. Your design isn't legal in many states.
There is at least one state where three wheelers of any kind aren't legal,
and most of the others have a requirement for either handle bars or a
steering wheel. Cool as it is, some DMVs might balk at the Joystick
fly-by-wire steering.
> Thanks for the input, however First off all a standard three wheeler is
> inherently unsafe, the front wheel in tring to steer the bike is what
> turns it over. I guess you couldn`t see the chuck hole our car went over
> in that turn, I thought the springs worked pretty good on that turn.
> Florida doesn`t have many hills so thats so thats not a problem here. By
> the did I tell you we`ve been experimenting with driving the car
> autonomously by computer.
>
> Tom Sines
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Sent: Jul 5, 2007 6:39 PM
>>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>Subject: Re: the eVette
>>
>>> Technically its a "di-wheel" : a concept that goes almost all the way
>>
>>Actually, it's technically a trike with a caster wheel and very little
>>weight on the caster. At least that's how it's described.
>>
>>Sorry Tom, but it seems like an expensive solution to a problem that
>> isn't
>>(i.e. the ability to turn on a dime).
>>Looks like it's loads of fun (if you can ignore the bouncing) but I can't
>>see it being hugely successful. It would be much easier, and cheaper, to
>>build a standard three wheeler.
>>
>>Just out of curiousity, have you tried accelerating rapidly while going
>>uphill? Or does it have two caster wheels(front and back)?
>>
>>> back to the safety bicycle. I have mused over similar chassis
>>> configurations for a couple of years now, and done some
>>> dilettante-level
>>> research. ( if anyone has links or SAE papers or pix, I am always
>>> grateful). To my knowledge no one has actually built a road-legal
>>> di-wheel before with differential steering ( unless you count the
>>> Segway- I didn't because it has some pretty fancy software controls and
>>> is slow). Now, given that in the auto world, *everything* has been done
>>> before, I expect somebody to come up with a counter-example, indeed
>>> thats a part of my motivation. I was thinking of trying a di-wheel
>>> myself with RC model truck and tank parts, so I wouldn't kill myself in
>>> a prototype, but if Tom has done what he says he has, then that is
>>> unnecessary - it *is* possible to steer with differential power/braking
>>> without massive instability. I was worried it would take
>>> traction-control + ABS using software ( like a Segway) to make it
>>> stable.
>>>
>>> This doesn't mean *anything* about the commercial viability or ultimate
>>> street-worthiness of the concept, not to mention marketability, and
>>> that
>>> brings up my second point: its a *prototype* Its not supposed to be a
>>> finished product, its a proof of concept. It's not good engineering to
>>> challenge it on the same grounds you would a production car - those
>>> problems you bring up, like controller failure, are future issues for
>>> the millions-of-dollars phase. They are fun to discuss, sure. but they
>>> aren't properly treated as a failure of design, they are simply work to
>>> be done.
>>>
>>> Since many people on this list drive lead-sleds at or near over-weight
>>> without improving the suspension or brakes, and/or contemplate
>>> pusher-trailers, it seems to me you should cut the guy some slack.
>>>
>>> Tom, your project would be more credible and indeed more interesting,
>>> if
>>> you simply took some good pictures and posted them on your site. Any
>>> $150 digital camera will do well enough.
>>>
>>> Thats about my 2 cents worth for the week
>>> cheers
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>>>> tom sines replied:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thought you would never ask, go to electricevette.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
>>junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever
>> I
>>wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
>>legalistic signature is void.
>>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> PeoplePC Online
> A better way to Internet
> http://www.peoplepc.com
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm, it might delay the problem for a while, but I don't think it will
solve it.
I don't know how hot it gets inside the case, but I just looked at a
desicant packet. It says to reactivate you need to bake it at 250 degrees
for 18 hours.
I suspect it won't get hot enough inside the controller to drive off
enough water to keep up with intrusion.
Also, just a thought, but is water saturated dessicant conductive? I'd
suspect it is. I'll have to check and see.
> From: Thomas Ward
>>>> Is it a good idea to put dessicant sachets inside a controller?
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
>>> I think it's a good idea, and worth a try. I've seen evidence of
>>> water damage inside at least two Curtis controllers, showing that
>>> significant amounts of water did get inside.
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> I use desicant all the time, I've never noticed it to be effective
>> against "Significant amounts of water". Removing excess humidity
>> sure, but not all that great for controlling water leakage
>
> I don't think the problem is that a lot of water gets in all at once. I
> suspect that the case has cracks that allow it to "breathe" in and out
> as the temperature and air pressure changes. The water inside is the
> result of a slow accumulation.
>
> Anyway, it's worth a try. I'd put the dessicant at some low point in the
> case, away from parts or wiring. Hopefully, it will absorb moisture when
> the internal humidity is high, preventing it from condensing in bad
> places. When the controller is operating and hot, this water would
> hopefully be released, and leak out (because the internal case pressure
> will rise due to the heat).
>
> Just a thought.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nope. What he is talking about is surface contamination that is forming a
conductor. Dirt, moisture, acid mist, etc can form a slightly conductive
coating on the battery.
However, I think he is going a bit overboad, because by the time enough
builds up to form a conductive path to the bottom and back, it's already
formed a path directly between the terminals (where the highest
concentration of contaminates are going to be).
The issue with grounding separate builds is about safety. You want the
shortest path the ground possible without creating ground loops.
However, you don't want multiple grounding rods on the same building
beause then it is possible to have two devices, located within touching
distance, that might be connected to different grounding points and
therefor be at different ground potentials. This can cause a difference
in voltage between the two grounded items that can cause a shock from the
"grounded" surfaces.
You can also end up with a difference in potential between groud and neutral.
> I'm trying to figure this posting out. Forgive my ignorance, please. I'm
> probably doing it wrong, or my ammeters are not accurate??? The surface I
> put the battery on doesn't seem to matter.
>
> I'm wondering if the reading could have more to do with ground potential?
> "They" tell me that, if I have a building some distance from my house, I
> need to put a ground rod at both locations, as they have different
> potentials. I'm wondering if that is what we are reading, not a loss
> through
> the battery?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 4:46 PM
> Subject: Re: Setting a Battery on Concrete Myth Answered
>
>
>> Batteries shall set on a bed of glass beads that are in a glass tray.
> <snip>
>> If you took a volt meter and put one lead on one of the post, and place
> the
>> other on the surface of the battery about 1/8 inch away from that post,
> you
>> will read a voltage. Now while keeping the one lead on the post and
>> move
>> the other on the surface of the battery all the way to one edge, you
>> will
>> still read some voltage.
>>
>> Roland
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have 99 gmail "invites" if anyone on the list wants gmail. Also
there is (or was) such a thing as a gmail "invite spooler" online from
which one can obtain an invite.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
BTW if you want an invite or have questions about this, *please*
reply off-list.
On 7/7/07, Andrew Kane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I have 99 gmail "invites" if anyone on the list wants gmail. Also
there is (or was) such a thing as a gmail "invite spooler" online from
which one can obtain an invite.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff,
After looking at your EV Album listing, your parts used, and modified,
and the great result you have come up with, I would not say you are an
electronic novice. Maybe at the start, but after 16 months, I think you
could teach the class now. Great car, I hope you enjoy it a lot!
Alan Brinkman
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Mccabe
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 2:13 PM
To: ev-list
Subject: Another EV smile
Well my 928 is finally on the road! It took its
maiden voyages on Wednesday.
Thanks to everyone on the ev-list for your help.A few
that have helped directly are , Cor van de Water, Bob
Bath for pointing me in the right direction. Most of
the time I remained in lurk mode and used many great
ideas from the very knowledgeable people here. In
particular Lee Hart for his voltage clamper and pack
monitor designs. So simple that even a electronic
novice like myself can understand. :<)
Thanks again,
Jeff McCabe
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/736
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
GM aiming grassroot activists would be as pointless as you going in the
forest and start stomping on the ants. Try to extinct them by that way...
World Wide Free Charging Post Map... Not bad idea.
-Jukka
Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
hmm maybe 'we' could make an online map showing the EVs in the world
that site with all the car projects might be a good host
maybe EV enthusiast yet without a car could also be plottet
and EV recharge friendly locations
make something GM could vent their anger at :)
Dan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Loni Hull had asked:
"Does anyone have knowledge about this company? I've never seen their
products mentioned on the list. They have a large range of very compact and
powerful dc pancake motors. Thoughts?
http://www.danahermotion.com/documents/index.php?product_cat_id=87";
Mick says: Kollmorgen brushless DC motors are fairly well known in the world
of electric scooters and electric bicycles. These were used on the Currie
electric bike/scooter offerings for a while. An entire container of them was
built in counterclockwise rotation by mistake and these are now available at
a vastly reduced price through various suppliers such as
www.electricscooterparts.com and on eBay. I bought one for my electrified
bike, modified it to rotate clockwise, and learned something in the process.
I have yet to mount it up to the bike, however. Making this fit in place of
the original motor on my Charger electric bike has been a major struggle but
I think I'm nearly there.
Bob McBroom can be found through the VisforVoltage.net forums and he can
supply this motor and do the reversing surgery at an excellent value. Bob
seems very capable and helpful in related areas, as well.
The surplus motors have a built in brushless controller for operation from a
24 volt nominal battery. Some intrepid souls have operated this motor on
higher voltage to get more horsepower using a Crystalite type exterior
brushless controller instead of the built in controller. Even at 24 volts
the motor is about .4 horsepower which is already enough to shred the drive
train on my bike, so I'm not planning to rev up the voltage beyond the stock
design.
The overall motor quality seems high and the speed control was smooth when I
did the bench test using a standard 0-5k potentiometer throttle.
If converted to CW rotation, this motor can directly bolt onto the planetary
gear reduction assembly which is a part off the Lashout electrified bike.
This is important for my application so I get lower RPM's but higher torque,
and the gearbox ultimately drives a #25 roller chain. I think there's the
normal Lashout gearbox and then a better one with a stronger bearing. The
upgrade part is available from www.evdeals.com EVDeals also sells the
Kollmorgen motor (at a higher price which may be justified by their product
expertise). I bought the stronger version Lashout gear reducer for my bike
from www.evdepot.com . The gearbox is very well made; this part cost a lot
more than the motor did so as usual my hobby bike is a cash burner, but it's
a cash burner that's sort of fun.
Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First of all : Where did you get the 4.0V number, that will damage the
cells!!!. "A123 cells are damaged if charge voltage exceeds 3.7V"
I think that is liPo numbers. LiPo stands for lithium polymer. A123
cells are LiFePo4 which stands for lithium iron phosphate. the "Po"
means different things in different acronyms. :-(
The A123 cells will see.
1) Charge rate of 40 A / 5 = 8 A per cell (roughly)
constant current up to 4.0 or 4.1 V per cell.
Destroyed, change this to "... up to 3.7V"
2) Discharge on the order of up to 350 A /5 = 70 A.
Typical would be around 25 A.
Life will be shortened at these amps regularly, need to measure temperature to
determine how bad
3) They would be cycled a lot.
They are one of the best cells for that.
4) Max DOD could be limited to 80% / 20% SOC.
That may be difficult to determine because of the flat voltage curve. I think
this will be calculated from readings under load on discharge side but the
charge side?
I am afraid I can't answer the questions, probably one of those just try
it(or a scooter version of it)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Based on the response I got, I must not have explained
this very well.
2 packs
Pack #1 - 5 parallel / 30 series A123
Pack #2 - 10 x 12 V flooded lead.
The comparison is this:
Current state = flooded lead (decent quality, lets say
Trojan) 10 x 12 V pack. Sure, it moves the car, but
the range is limited. Acceleration is fine. Cycle
life is questionable because of high discharge rates
and deep discharges.
Proposed solution:
Fix the discharge rate of the flooded lead at a
maximum of lets say 40 A. That's 40 A continuous all
the time the A123 needs it, weather the car is running
or sitting, accelerating or cruising. I previously
said my car draws an average of something like 77 A
average.
Start off with A123 at 90% and the lead at 100%. You
accelerate and pull that 350 A off the A123 dropping
the SOC. The lead kicks in withs its 40 A. By now,
you are cruising and the drain rate is 77 A. That's
40 from the lead and 37 from the A123. You are going
to run out of juice if you go to far. But, you pull
to a stop light. Now, you aren't pulling anything,
but the A123 is still being charged at 40 A. You pull
away, etc ...
As long as you don't pull an overall time averaged
drain (including times when the car isn't running) of
more than 40 A, you can keep going.
Typically you stop and shop or work or something.
That whole time, the A123 will be being charged (until
it is full that is). And the whole process repeats.
Important notes: The A123 voltage is always less than
or equal to the lead pack. You still need a diode
just in case the lead pack sags for some strange
reason and the current flow gets reversed.
There aren't 2 chargers in the car. You only charge
the lead pack. The rest takes care of itself.
So, why do I think this will improve amount of energy
you can get out of the lead battery. All the data
sheets for any battery I look at say I can get more
Watt-hr out of a battery at 40 A than at 77 A. I'm
not talking run time. I am talking about energy.
Volts * Amps * time is a higher number (significantly)
when amps is low ... In fact, significantly more
usage of the battery's energy storage if you keep that
drain rate down. I also think it helps cycle life by
not abusing the battery as much.
With all that said, is there anything to this theory?
Steve
--------------
"There is a diode to only allow current to flow from
the lead pack to the A123 pack."
What's wrong with volts?
"Let's say 40 A current limiter."
At 40 amps you don't have much of a boost.
"The lead pack has a higher voltage than the 123 pack,
so
it always charges the 123 pack."
That sounds tricky to have another charger in your car
to charge the
A123.
"Would this significantly improve the amount of
usable energy you could get out of the basic flooded
lead. I would think so because of limiting the
discharge rate?"
I don't think the change would be signifigant.
"What effects would it have on the cycle life of the
lead?"
That depends. A battery not designed for sudden high
power output
would greatly benefit from having the A123's help out.
For something
like an Optima, I don't think the effect on life-cycle
would be as
great though. However, if you're only pulling 40 amps
from your A123
pack at such a low voltage then the difference in
power would be
practically nothing!
On 7/6/07, Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am dreaming of a battery pack that consists of 30
> groups of A123 cells, 5 cells per group. An array
> that is 5 cells in parallel with 30 in series. Not
a
> very big or heavy pack. Not much energy storage
> either, but read on. Not even high voltage. Each
> cell is interconnected. There are bypass regulators
> on each block of cells limiting the max voltage to
4.0
> or maybe 4.1 V. Notice that that is less than 100%
> charged. Thre is also a non-ressetable fuse in line
> with each and every cell to take care of
catastrophic
> failure and runaway.
>
> Then, there is a battery pack of 12 V good old
flooded
> lead, 10 batteries in series.
>
> There is a diode to only allow current to flow from
> the lead pack to the A123 pack.
>
> There is also a current limiter sized appropriately
> for maximum 1 way trip. 1/2 of your max range and
the
> A123's go to 20% SOC. Let's say 40 A current
limiter.
>
> Finally, there is a single contactor controlled by
the
> voltage of the A123 pack. Less than the regulator
> voltage, it is on and the packs are connected. More
> than the regulator voltage and it is disconnected.
The
> lead pack has a higher voltage than the 123 pack, so
> it always charges the 123 pack.
>
> The A123 cells will see.
>
> 1) Charge rate of 40 A / 5 = 8 A per cell (roughly)
> constant current up to 4.0 or 4.1 V per cell.
>
> 2) Discharge on the order of up to 350 A /5 = 70 A.
> Typical would be around 25 A.
>
> 3) They would be cycled a lot.
>
> 4) Max DOD could be limited to 80% / 20% SOC.
>
> Two questions:
>
> 1) How would the A123's hold up in this case where
> they are essentially used as capacitors?
>
> 2) Would this significantly improve the amount of
> usable energy you could get out of the basic flooded
> lead. I would think so because of limiting the
> discharge rate.
>
> 3) What effects would it have on the cycle life of
the
> lead?
>
> This is one type of hybrid battery pack that I have
> considerered, but never built. So far, I have gone
> the other way and used low discharge rate on NiMH
and
> Li Ion to boost charge the lead pack. But now, I am
> thinking I have it all wrong, and I should be doing
> the opposite. Keep the discharge rate on the lead
low
> to maximize usable energy out (and maybe cycle life
> ????). The other way, the sole intent was to boost
> the lead SOC to improve cycle life. Really it had
> little to no effect on usable energy out of the lead
> pack, as far as I could see. That is with the slow
> charge rates off my small boost packs.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Steve
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
On 7 Jul 2007 at 3:37, Andrew Kane wrote:
> I have 99 gmail "invites" if anyone on the list wants gmail.
Weren't these required only when Gmail was in beta testing? When I was
preparing some EVDL support materials a couple of months ago, I signed up
for a Gmail account without any kind of "invitation."
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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closer to the brushes it is, better accurate your measure will be.
Cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait du volant, quel carburant choisiriez-vous
?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "dale henderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 7:51 PM
Subject: temp sensor location
i want to put a temp sensor on an etek [DC pancake
perm-motor]. where is the best place to put an
external sensor? i plan on using a low tech [and free
for me] cooking thermometer.
also how much error would there be in measuring temp
externally? [e.g. the sensor reads 150F but it is
really 180F in the motor]
thanks again for the wisdom of the list
Albuquerque, NM
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1221
http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
____________________________________________________________________________________
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think that the title says it all on this one:
http://www.gizmag.com/go/7588/
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
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Please follow the link to my webpage (below), then
"CivicWithACord journal, and this is described in
detail. It is correct, and not just with gen. 5:
every gen. through gen. 6 does it this way. There's a
reason. (;-p
Thanks,
--- "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've heard that the 5th gen Honda Civic has a
> crankshaft that rotates
> in the opposite direction of nearly every other gas
> engine of its time
> (92-95)
>
> Is this true? And just what is the direction that
> nearly all
> crankshafts spin in?
>
> On a side note.....What does "advancing" an electric
> motor mean?
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss an email again!
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--- Begin Message ---
Congratulations! Glad you've now got that EV grin
going on!
peace,
--- Jeff Mccabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well my 928 is finally on the road! It took its
> maiden voyages on Wednesday.
> Thanks to everyone on the ev-list for your help.A
> few
> that have helped directly are , Cor van de Water,
> Bob
> Bath for pointing me in the right direction. Most of
> the time I remained in lurk mode and used many great
> ideas from the very knowledgeable people here. In
> particular Lee Hart for his voltage clamper and pack
> monitor designs. So simple that even a electronic
> novice like myself can understand. :<)
> Thanks again,
> Jeff McCabe
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/736
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, it's been about 800 mi. now since I've last had
the symptoms.
During sag:
1200A controller
350W DCDC by DCP.
E-meter powered by aux. 12V output from DCP
voltage could read as low as 90V momentarily, but not
"feel" like it was sagging that hard...
Sag disappeared when:
600W DCDC converter
E-meter powered by Belktronix LV dedicated supply off
of the HV pack.
In other words, when I did the retrofit on the DCDC,
and installed the new power supply for the E-meter,
something changed, because now I can't duplicate the
situation! I can't make it sag past 122V now, and
that's mashing the accel. to the floor! I'm gathering
that there was voltage spiking (EMF?) or some such
going on.
I also took the time when it was down (late Feb.) to
switch the location of the E-meter from the unused
side view mirror controller area on the dash, to a
"pod pillar", a gauge holder made for Civic tweakers
(NOS gauges, etc.) I'd waited b/c it means removing
the dash, stereo, etc.
In short, it would be harder for me to be prouder of
this rig than I am right now. My next goal for the
rig is cosmetic: some sharp-looking alloy wheels.
EV grin? Nah. EV YEEEEEEHAAAAAAW!!!!!!!!!!
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper to just buy a set of Optima group 31s?
Or buddy pairs of YTs or Orbitals?
Whenever you are trying to solve a problem, it's usually better to look
for a simple solution rather than a complicated one.
> Based on the response I got, I must not have explained
> this very well.
>
> 2 packs
>
> Pack #1 - 5 parallel / 30 series A123
> Pack #2 - 10 x 12 V flooded lead.
>
> The comparison is this:
>
> Current state = flooded lead (decent quality, lets say
> Trojan) 10 x 12 V pack. Sure, it moves the car, but
> the range is limited. Acceleration is fine. Cycle
> life is questionable because of high discharge rates
> and deep discharges.
>
> Proposed solution:
> Fix the discharge rate of the flooded lead at a
> maximum of lets say 40 A. That's 40 A continuous all
> the time the A123 needs it, weather the car is running
> or sitting, accelerating or cruising. I previously
> said my car draws an average of something like 77 A
> average.
>
> Start off with A123 at 90% and the lead at 100%. You
> accelerate and pull that 350 A off the A123 dropping
> the SOC. The lead kicks in withs its 40 A. By now,
> you are cruising and the drain rate is 77 A. That's
> 40 from the lead and 37 from the A123. You are going
> to run out of juice if you go to far. But, you pull
> to a stop light. Now, you aren't pulling anything,
> but the A123 is still being charged at 40 A. You pull
> away, etc ...
>
> As long as you don't pull an overall time averaged
> drain (including times when the car isn't running) of
> more than 40 A, you can keep going.
>
> Typically you stop and shop or work or something.
> That whole time, the A123 will be being charged (until
> it is full that is). And the whole process repeats.
>
> Important notes: The A123 voltage is always less than
> or equal to the lead pack. You still need a diode
> just in case the lead pack sags for some strange
> reason and the current flow gets reversed.
>
> There aren't 2 chargers in the car. You only charge
> the lead pack. The rest takes care of itself.
>
> So, why do I think this will improve amount of energy
> you can get out of the lead battery. All the data
> sheets for any battery I look at say I can get more
> Watt-hr out of a battery at 40 A than at 77 A. I'm
> not talking run time. I am talking about energy.
> Volts * Amps * time is a higher number (significantly)
> when amps is low ... In fact, significantly more
> usage of the battery's energy storage if you keep that
> drain rate down. I also think it helps cycle life by
> not abusing the battery as much.
>
> With all that said, is there anything to this theory?
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------
>
> "There is a diode to only allow current to flow from
> the lead pack to the A123 pack."
>
> What's wrong with volts?
>
> "Let's say 40 A current limiter."
>
> At 40 amps you don't have much of a boost.
>
> "The lead pack has a higher voltage than the 123 pack,
> so
> it always charges the 123 pack."
>
> That sounds tricky to have another charger in your car
> to charge the
> A123.
>
> "Would this significantly improve the amount of
> usable energy you could get out of the basic flooded
> lead. I would think so because of limiting the
> discharge rate?"
>
> I don't think the change would be signifigant.
>
>
> "What effects would it have on the cycle life of the
> lead?"
>
> That depends. A battery not designed for sudden high
> power output
> would greatly benefit from having the A123's help out.
> For something
> like an Optima, I don't think the effect on life-cycle
> would be as
> great though. However, if you're only pulling 40 amps
> from your A123
> pack at such a low voltage then the difference in
> power would be
> practically nothing!
>
>
>
> On 7/6/07, Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I am dreaming of a battery pack that consists of 30
>> groups of A123 cells, 5 cells per group. An array
>> that is 5 cells in parallel with 30 in series. Not
> a
>> very big or heavy pack. Not much energy storage
>> either, but read on. Not even high voltage. Each
>> cell is interconnected. There are bypass regulators
>> on each block of cells limiting the max voltage to
> 4.0
>> or maybe 4.1 V. Notice that that is less than 100%
>> charged. Thre is also a non-ressetable fuse in line
>> with each and every cell to take care of
> catastrophic
>> failure and runaway.
>>
>> Then, there is a battery pack of 12 V good old
> flooded
>> lead, 10 batteries in series.
>>
>> There is a diode to only allow current to flow from
>> the lead pack to the A123 pack.
>>
>> There is also a current limiter sized appropriately
>> for maximum 1 way trip. 1/2 of your max range and
> the
>> A123's go to 20% SOC. Let's say 40 A current
> limiter.
>>
>> Finally, there is a single contactor controlled by
> the
>> voltage of the A123 pack. Less than the regulator
>> voltage, it is on and the packs are connected. More
>> than the regulator voltage and it is disconnected.
> The
>> lead pack has a higher voltage than the 123 pack, so
>> it always charges the 123 pack.
>>
>> The A123 cells will see.
>>
>> 1) Charge rate of 40 A / 5 = 8 A per cell (roughly)
>> constant current up to 4.0 or 4.1 V per cell.
>>
>> 2) Discharge on the order of up to 350 A /5 = 70 A.
>> Typical would be around 25 A.
>>
>> 3) They would be cycled a lot.
>>
>> 4) Max DOD could be limited to 80% / 20% SOC.
>>
>> Two questions:
>>
>> 1) How would the A123's hold up in this case where
>> they are essentially used as capacitors?
>>
>> 2) Would this significantly improve the amount of
>> usable energy you could get out of the basic flooded
>> lead. I would think so because of limiting the
>> discharge rate.
>>
>> 3) What effects would it have on the cycle life of
> the
>> lead?
>>
>> This is one type of hybrid battery pack that I have
>> considerered, but never built. So far, I have gone
>> the other way and used low discharge rate on NiMH
> and
>> Li Ion to boost charge the lead pack. But now, I am
>> thinking I have it all wrong, and I should be doing
>> the opposite. Keep the discharge rate on the lead
> low
>> to maximize usable energy out (and maybe cycle life
>> ????). The other way, the sole intent was to boost
>> the lead SOC to improve cycle life. Really it had
>> little to no effect on usable energy out of the lead
>> pack, as far as I could see. That is with the slow
>> charge rates off my small boost packs.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Steve
>>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail,
> news, photos & more.
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>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
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You may be correct. I have a little area on my gmail page that
says: "Invite a friend"- (with a text field to enter {presumably} an
email address, labelled 'Give gmail to:') with a button labelled "Send
Invite".
I was not aware that invites were no longer necessary to get a
gmail account, but if it's so I'm glad to hear it. I enjoy gmail
particularly for EVDL messages for its "conversation" view of
messages, among other things.
However, it does not send messages as plain text by default. It
is fairly easy to configure gmail to do so.
To my chagrin, David had to tell me how to do it- I'm not
*quite* as computer - savvy as I thought I was! 8^0
IMHO the "archive" feature is well worth it however. If anyone
knows of another email provider as well suited to EVDL traffic (or a
client with similar capabilities) I'd love to hear about it- off list
of course!
On 7/7/07, David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 7 Jul 2007 at 3:37, Andrew Kane wrote:
> I have 99 gmail "invites" if anyone on the list wants gmail.
Weren't these required only when Gmail was in beta testing? When I was
preparing some EVDL support materials a couple of months ago, I signed up
for a Gmail account without any kind of "invitation."
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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