EV Digest 7008
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Important NEDRA Record Rules Updates
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s
by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Clutch?
by "Bart Grabman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: [ EV ] Electric Bike
by Darren David <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Clutch?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: One way to promote EV's
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Clutch?
by "Tom Messick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s (was Re: Tesla Roadster
Battery Pack)
by "Shaun Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: One way to promote EV's
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Clutch?
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Clutch?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Catch phrase for the EVDL
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: My power consumption
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Delivery status notification (not) FIXED!! Still Fails!
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Delivery status notification (not) FIXED!! Still Fails!
by Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Catch phrase for the EVDL
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Catch phrase for the EVDL
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Ideal EV configuration for my situation?
by "Matthew Chan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Battery Balancer/Regulator???
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Catch phrases for the EVDL
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Clutch?
by "Tom Messick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Catch phrase for the EVDL
by ROBERT RICE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Arnold Flexing for Flex-Fuels
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Clutch?
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
To accommodate our members who are racing at their local tracks and
to expedite the process to get records up on the website we have made
some updates to the process.
First news is that NEDRA members can now race at their local IHRA
tracks in addition to NHRA tracks if they are going for a record.
Secondly, members who are going for a NEDRA Record and racing outside
a NEDRA sanctioned event will need to fill out a "NEDRA Race Form" to
be checked off and signed by the track inspection official before
racing.
This form can be conveniently downloaded from the NEDRA Home Page
under "Info for Racers." It is also available from the Class Rules
Page or the Records Page.
So briefly, these are the requirements for NEDRA Members gunning for
a record at their local tracks.
1) Track must be an IHRA or NHRA track
2) Vehicle owner and driver must be a NEDRA Member
3) NEDRA Race Form must be completed and signed off by the Inspection
Official at the track
4) Make a copy of two time slips (the times must be within 1% of each
other) from runs made on the same day.
5) Email a copy of the completed NEDRA Race Form and the time slips
to Brian Hall at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
or snail mail to:
NEDRA Record Holders
3200 Dutton Ave #220
Santa Rosa, Ca 95407
Chip Gribben
NEDRA
http://www.nedra.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Matt,
I'm looking at building them into my own packs for a few reasons..
Firstly the cost - their packs are quite a bit more expensive than
raw cells. (About 50% more per watt hour.) Although included BMS is
nice. The packs are built using their GE1200 cell, which have
slightly higher capacity but not as high power handling as the PE1150
- although they did say they could build the packs with whatever cell
I wanted.
But lastly, perhaps most importantly, they gave me the impression
that the packs are not built to handle very high current. They
recommended <=2C continuous, or 5-10C intermittent. I was hoping for
a pack which is OK with 10C continuous, as the car will see some drag
strip and track work.
One thing I might mention, just a recommendation to consider a lower
voltage pack with higher current rating? At 300V under heavy load, a
Warp11 would probably hit the current limit on a Zilla2K, which
represents 40C for your pack - and the batteries wouldn't like this
much. Oh, and the poor 192V rated motor carrying 600kW would overheat
quite quickly! Better to run a lower voltage, higher capacity pack
e.g 200V 100Ah. You might still hit the Zilla's current limit, but at
least it'd be at a more reasonable 20C.
Just a thought, others may disagree.
-Ian
On 10/07/2007, at 7:32 AM, Matthew Drobnak wrote:
Ian,
If I may ask - why are you looking into raw cells? The 12V 50 Ah
battery they have seems to be pretty good to me...but I'm not sure
which cell that is...I'm looking at being able to do 16C as my max,
which is 800A...800 A * 300 V = 240 kW, which is ~320 HP, and who
knows how much torque out of a Zilla 2k LOL.
If I push it to 20C... 1000A * 300 V = 300 kW = 400 HP :-D
Zilla 2k + PHET + Warp 11 = FUN. :-)
-Matt
Ian Hooper wrote:
You can buy DeWalt 9360 packs for about US$100, and they have 10x
M1 cells in them, so it would seem US$10/cell is about the going
rate.
Or US$1.43/Wh, which is pretty expensive even for LiFePO4s. But
then with 70C on tap it's only 2 cents per watt of power, which is
rather good - i.e it might be the cell to go for if you are drag
racing. But I was hoping decent range by using a ~15kWh pack,
which makes them just a little out of my price range!
I'm currently leaning towards the PHET PE1150s (their high-power
18650 cell). Not quite as high power as A123s, but still very good
(20C+ no worries) and around half the price per watt hour.
And rather impressive cycle life. They sent me a datasheet for the
PE1150 which included lab results from cycle tests. 2C charging
and *10C* discharging, and the cells lose 20% capacity in ~800
cycles. That's cycling at 10C discharge!! So, if I absolutely
thrash heck out of the car for about 5 years, I'd STILL have 80%
pack capacity left ;)
(FYI at 2C charge and 4C discharge the cells hit 80% after 1750
cycles. Which is still way above average EV charge/discharge
rates, and represents maybe 10 years of use.)
They're looking good.
-Ian
On 09/07/2007, at 7:16 PM, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
I'm not sure I follow that reasoning but please tell me the price
Shaun Williams wrote:
A was kindly given a quote by the A123 Systems folk a couple of
months
ago for 1500 cells but in the spirit of a good conspiracy
theory, on
which some appear to thrive, I can't possibly tell you their
price...
:-)
However, a quick search for "DeWalt 36V" prices at eBay will
give you
the correct answer (with the bonus of a 10 "module" battery
balancer
thrown in!).
Shaun
www.electric-echo.com
On 7/9/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Do we have any prices on bulk A123 cells?
has anyone ever been able to buy some?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just got the rest of my parts for my adaptor from EVParts for my '71 VW
Super Beetle, and have the motor bolted on to the adaptor and flywheel. I'm
trying to figure out what to do with the clutch though... I was under the
impression that it stayed in the vehicle, but I can't seem to figure out
where or how to bolt it on.
Thoughts?
http://www.freewebs.com/grabman/car/adaptor.jpg
http://www.freewebs.com/grabman/car/motorandadaptor.jpg
_________________________________________________________________
http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=hmtextlinkjuly07
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm interested as well with regard to my surrey-conversion project.
Thanks!
Darren David
Joseph T. wrote:
"The only problem with mounting the motor on the
gearing side, is that when the motor is on, your peddles will be turning
too"
I don't mind. I'd rather have something simple first. I'll elaborate later.
"Currie makes a special bike axle"
Does anyone know of this part number or how I can identify this certain
part?
On 7/9/07, mike young <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
They sell industrial toothed belts that are very strong such as the Gates
Poly chain belt that drives the earlier solectria cars.They are real
helpful
and good prices I thought at www.mibelting.com
mike young-solectria cars
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 4:48 PM
Subject: Electric Bike
> Post master said my post didn't work. I'm posting it again.
>
> I am in the midst of putting my electric scooter parts onto my bicycle.
>
> It's okay to have electrical conducting parts (nails,metal stuff ect.)
> RIGHT next to the motor, right?
>
> I don't know what kind of motor I have. All I know is that it's a 500
> watt from Currie Tech.
>
> Also, about the connection from the motor shaft to bicycle wheel.
> There is a thin gap (1/2 inch?) between the bicycle chain and bicycle
> wheel. I was thinking I can attach some sort of toothed belt or
> something from the motor shaft to the gap between the bicycle chain
> and wheel. Would a belt that is that thin have the strength to carry
> sll of that power?
>
!DSPAM:4692d17f708475209328925!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Bart,
You must have a pressure plate that bolts on to the flywheel. The clutch
disc sets between the flywheel and pressure plate. You must center the
clutch disc while you bolt the pressure plate to the flywheel. Go to a auto
parts store and pick up a clutch center tool which is just a plastic rod
with the same splines that fit the clutch disc.
The transmission input shaft is spline to fit the clutch, go through the
clutch and the end is inset into a brass or needle bearing that should be
install in the center of the motor coupler. Installing the transmission
bell housing and transmission to the adapter, you may have to rotate the
output shaft by hand, so the splines of the input shaft will line up with
the spline in the clutch disc.
Don't forget to put on the correct size throw out bearing over the
transmission input shaft and the throw out bearing fork rod that should snap
into a pivot ball joint.
While you are at the auto parts store, pick up a auto assembly book on your
unit which will show you step by step on assemblies.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bart Grabman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 7:50 PM
Subject: Clutch?
> I just got the rest of my parts for my adaptor from EVParts for my '71 VW
> Super Beetle, and have the motor bolted on to the adaptor and flywheel.
> I'm
> trying to figure out what to do with the clutch though... I was under the
> impression that it stayed in the vehicle, but I can't seem to figure out
> where or how to bolt it on.
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
> http://www.freewebs.com/grabman/car/adaptor.jpg
> http://www.freewebs.com/grabman/car/motorandadaptor.jpg
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=hmtextlinkjuly07
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9 Jul 2007 at 1:20, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Except that he is only going 33 mph, and the normal wh/mile figures
> assumes spending some time at 50-60 mph.
>
> Nearly 9kwh to go 33mph seems a little high to me. Even my pickup truck
> doesn't use that much power at 30-35mph.
>
>
> > 8,775 W / 33 MPH = 266 Watthour per mile.
This is puzzling. You can't divide Watt-hours by miles per hour and get
Watt-hours per mile. WH * H/M = (WH^2)/M
Or do you mean 8775W, rather than Wh?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
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--- Begin Message ---
On 7/10/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
hehe ok. that's terrible. curious human stupidity A123 exhibits (that's
probably gonna come back to haunt me that I told the truth)
Wrong, wrong, wrong! A123 pricing is EXACTLY as it should be. Why
would they give somebody like me a huge discount for such a small
order? Particularly when the application is largely unknown to them
and it has an increased potential to do brand damage when compared to
supplying say the RC market.
Us backyard EVers are a very small cottage niche playing with very big
toys. We are more risk with only a small return for them. The only way
WE are going to get a heavy discount is to order very large numbers
(maybe 100,000+ as Bill Dube suggests) AND show that we are going to
use them appropriately, i.e. mounting, protection, BMS etc.
As Lee Hart and Bill Dube have suggested; get some cells, play and
learn. Hence my purchase of the DeWalt packs and charger.
Shaun
www.electric-echo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
That is exactly what is in my formula.
It also was the original poster's statement: almost 9 kW, not kWh.
To make it more obvious:
1/(33 MPH) = 0.03 h/mi
so 8775W / 33MPH = 8775W * 0.03 h/mi = 266 Wh/mi
All units simply work out, so the calculation is correct.
Hope this clarifies,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Roden
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 7:26 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: One way to promote EV's
On 9 Jul 2007 at 1:20, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Except that he is only going 33 mph, and the normal wh/mile figures
> assumes spending some time at 50-60 mph.
>
> Nearly 9kwh to go 33mph seems a little high to me. Even my pickup truck
> doesn't use that much power at 30-35mph.
>
>
> > 8,775 W / 33 MPH = 266 Watthour per mile.
This is puzzling. You can't divide Watt-hours by miles per hour and get
Watt-hours per mile. WH * H/M = (WH^2)/M
Or do you mean 8775W, rather than Wh?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Want to
unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or switch to
digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage
http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland, you have a good explanation. But does your explanation refer
to a clutchless EV, or an EV with a clutch. By the way, Electroauto's
adaptors are designed to keep the clutch, right?
On 7/9/07, Tom Messick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
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* This post contains a forbidden message format *
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, the Electro Auto motor coupler is design to fit a flywheel. To make a
clutchless EV, you could remove the spline of a clutch and weld a flange to
bolt the to a motor coupler for the transmission input shaft to insert into.
You must be at least 0.001 inch in alignment. This solid type of connection
has to be more accurate then the clutch set up. Some transmissions input
shaft float around on just a ball bearing inside the transmission. A pilot
bearing must be use in the motor coupler or in the end of the motor shaft to
stabilize it.
As this pilot shaft bushing wears, the clutch plate can float around some
what which is not too critical.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 9:16 PM
Subject: Re: Clutch?
> Roland, you have a good explanation. But does your explanation refer
> to a clutchless EV, or an EV with a clutch. By the way, Electroauto's
> adaptors are designed to keep the clutch, right?
>
> On 7/9/07, Tom Messick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > * ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
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> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Or these that have already been seen out there from PIA:
"Take My Car & Plug It"
"Dump The Pump"
or
"Question Internal Combustion"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
11,700 W / 55 MPH = 213 Wh/mi
This is lower than the 33 MPH figure, most likely
this is due to the difficulty to judge if a road is level or not.
Only if you drive it in 2 directions and take the average, will
you get rid of the effect of slightly rising or falling grades.
This number is actually pretty good.
Continue to measure and you will soon figure out where
approximately the real consumption actually sits.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Richard Acuti
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 4:12 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: My power consumption
Ok, I have some more numbers to add to my power consumption curve for a '74
bug with 16, 8v batteries @69 lbs. each:
Last night, when I went to Annapolis, I averaged 33 mph @ 65 amps * 135
volts= 8.8kW (rounded up) 1st gear.
This morning's commute on the highway I averaged 55 mph @ 90 amps *130
volts= 11.7kW. 2nd gear.
Like I said, without an E-meter it's kind of hard to be perfectly accurate
due to all the low-grade hills around here. My inbound commute is definitely
an overall uphill pull but I used a pretty level stretch to get the 11.7kW
number.
I have good, new tires and the alignment is straight. I'd like to regrease
my bearings and replace the gearbox oil. I also intend to swap out the
Subaru seats for light, polymer racing seats as well as all fenders, trunk
and deck lids for fiberglass replacements. The body panels alone will save
me almost 200 lbs. Maybe that'll help a little.
Rich A.
_________________________________________________________________
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migratio
n_HM_mini_2G_0507
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark,
Luckily you don't like new toys ;-)
I think your regular email was forwarded to your blackberry account,
because I tried to email you privately and again got the failure
from the blackberry account, so I could not reach you to tell
you about the issue - catch 22.
UPDATE!!! I am still getting "delivery status notification (Failed)
The contents of the message are:
------------------------------------------------------
Your message:
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: My power consumption
Sent Date: Mon Jul 09 21:33:26 2007
has not been delivered to the recipient's BlackBerry Handheld.
The returned error status is <DB_USER_SUSPENDED_MODE>
------------------------------------------------------
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Dutko
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 4:48 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Delivery status notification FIXED!!
Dan- I got an I phone and ATT messed up my old blackberry account- I just
had them delete it so it it happens again in the next day please let me
know- I was not aware of this till today.
Sorry
Mark
electricyaris.com
On Jul 9, 2007, at 3:41 PM, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> do you guys also constantly get an email about delivery failure to a
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] ?
>
> what's up with that
>
> Dan
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Should be fixed now- they did not delete the account as stated...
On Jul 9, 2007, at 9:38 PM, Cor van de Water wrote:
Hi Mark,
Luckily you don't like new toys ;-)
I think your regular email was forwarded to your blackberry account,
because I tried to email you privately and again got the failure
from the blackberry account, so I could not reach you to tell
you about the issue - catch 22.
UPDATE!!! I am still getting "delivery status notification (Failed)
The contents of the message are:
------------------------------------------------------
Your message:
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: My power consumption
Sent Date: Mon Jul 09 21:33:26 2007
has not been delivered to the recipient's BlackBerry Handheld.
The returned error status is <DB_USER_SUSPENDED_MODE>
------------------------------------------------------
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Dutko
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 4:48 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Delivery status notification FIXED!!
Dan- I got an I phone and ATT messed up my old blackberry account-
I just
had them delete it so it it happens again in the next day please
let me
know- I was not aware of this till today.
Sorry
Mark
electricyaris.com
On Jul 9, 2007, at 3:41 PM, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
do you guys also constantly get an email about delivery failure to a
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ?
what's up with that
Dan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One from Steven Lough (posted 2 months ago):
" S T O P B U R N I N G"
" S T A R T E A R N I N G"
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 2:50 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Catch phrase for the EVDL
We have already made the mistakes so you don't have to. What do you think?
Lawrence Rhodes...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Intelligent Vehicle Discussion List ;-)
or
Shade Tree Car Innovations
or
Tomorrows Car, you can build it yourself and drive it Today.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 2:50 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Catch phrase for the EVDL
We have already made the mistakes so you don't have to. What do you think?
Lawrence Rhodes...
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--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for all the quick and insightful replies guys. I think it helped a lot.
I ended up calling Victor today and, after getting over that initial
sticker shock, realized that it probably wasn't possible to go AC.
Peter's email confirmed that for me.
I should also mention that I've been discussing the recent changes
(price and feasibility) and also the goal of my project with my dad
and we've come to the conclusion that I should follow a thesis (or so
to say) for the project. I don't think there would be a point to
undergo this conversion without having a formal goal and very detailed
documentation. I personally do not have a strong need for an electric
car, or a car for that matter. I am an avid cyclist and routinely do
70 km loops so I bike to campus instead of driving (I don't even have
my driver's license yet actually).
The motivation behind this project has always been that:
- It would be fun
- I would learn things
- The environmental benefit
- And most importantly, to prove that it is possible for someone to
do given the right amount of time. This is the ultimately to
supplement the 3rd motivating factor. One car doesn't make a whole lot
of difference, but to motivate others results in a huge environmental
impact.
There's been many electric car conversions out there, and even many
kits for conversions. While I realize that none are the same, many are
also similar. After reading a number of blogs out there, I realize
that perhaps this conversion would not have been as groundbreaking as
I had originally envisioned (I know it sounds like I'm giving up, but
I'm not, so please keep reading onwards if you're interested!).
In light of the recent facts and the realization that my dad and I
have come to, we've decided to slightly redesign the criteria of the
car and to develop an overarching thesis for this project.
So here's the new and revised criteria in order of importance. The car must be:
- Minimal cost. We want to spend as little as possible while still
retaining functionality and safety. A real "no frills" car.
- Last a reasonable period of time for the investment to "pay off"
- Able to handle a variety of climatic conditions, especially cold
Canadian winters. (-30C nominal)
- Maximum range possible. Acceleration does not really matter as long
as it's comparable to the slowest ICE cars.
- Be able to attain 110km/h. (Highway speeds)
- Avoid the use of CNC or machine shop tools whenever possible.
And you guys can probably already guess, but my thesis is:
---
Designing and building a fully electric vehicle intended for
intra-city driving without access to a personal machine shop is
possible and it is economically viable.
---
I will thoroughly document this project and include every last detail.
Every last drawing and calculation, be it from a napkin or a CAD
diagram, will be posted and accompanied by a write-up.
My intention for this project is to serve as a guidepost for people
who have limited access to machine shops and/or are hesitant on making
the investment on an electric car. I will include cost-benefit
calculations and life cycle maintenance analysis to justify the use of
an EV.
So. Most of you guys are probably thinking that I'm crazy and will
never pull through due to lack of time, money and everything else. I
realize that this is a huge task, and I will also be fast-tracking my
degree for the next 2 years and time will be short. We'll have to see.
I plan to play a large role in research and documentation, while my
dad and his students mainly perform the shop work 400 km away from me.
This should allow me to work during my spare time (if I have any) and
force me to remain committed to the project. Hopefully, with a lot of
help from the EVDL, we will some how be able to complete this project.
-----------------------
Now, after that rather long-winded write-up, I'll get down to
business... This is where I really need your help guys.
Given the new criteria, AC is out of the question. DC is my only
resort, but I am worried about the lack of regenerative braking.
The car, for the moment, is the heavy 260e/300e. There's 2 reasons I'm
hesitant about using a different body.
1. A new donor car would mean that the existing car gets sent to the
junk yard. Peter, I realize that we would be spending more on a motor
and the range would be diminished, but I will calculate these factors
into the cost-benefit calculations, and the mileage calculations.
2. Buying a very smaller donor car could also mean that the results
would be less than typical. Numbers obtained from converting a small
car may not scale up to predict numbers with larger cars, but I would
think that if a larger car can meet the criteria, a smaller car can do
it for cheaper. If anything, the results from using the 300e and the
260e would mean that the project is even more economically viable than
the numbers that we calculate.
I'm really trying to fit regenerative braking in because we're using
the mercedes frames and we're expending more energy than a smaller car
when accelerating the vehicle and the car would also be in traffic
jams very often (start/stop). Ideally I would like to get some of it
back in electricity instead of generating heat. Since the AC motors
are out of our reach, I was wondering if there was any way to get
reliable DC regen into our design. Is it true that brushless DC motors
are prohibitively expensive? I've read about regen using a series
wound motor, but it seems very unreliable. Is this true? Complexity
should not really be an issue, although it usually means less
reliability.
That's the only real issue I'm trying to wrap my head around at the
moment. I'm considering using used factory motor controllers (?) from
ebay, but I'm not sure if that would be a good idea, since they're not
generally available in steady supply (not beneficial to the project,
I'm trying for readily available and easy) and I'd have to find a good
DC/AC inverter (efficiency + size). Does this sound like a bad idea?
Also, do MOFSETs and IGBTs wear out?
Once I get these basic things figured out, I'll do a rough cost
analysis and figure out if it is necessary to cut further costs or to
go with a different body. The school year doesn't start till
September, so I have a bit of time to plan everything out. Don't
worry, I'll document everything and eventually get a website set up.
Computer science students get free web page hosting or something.
Thank you everyone very much for your time and I really look forward
to hearing your feedback.
Matt
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Battery balancers and battery equalizers are similar in function but differ
in the details. Equalization generally happens on charge. Balancing can
happen when sitting idle or on discharge. Equalization can happen without
equalizers if the battery is trickle charged for a long time. Equalizers
hasten the process during charge but do nothing during discharge or when the
pack is idle.
Overcharging is not the problem. Dryout is the problem. Dryout is a symptom
of overcharging. Voltage limiters reduce overcharging and reduce the dryout
problem. No, you do not need equalizers, balancers, or regulators. They
allow you to cycle the pack faster while reducing the potential for damage
caused by an overvoltage condition.
Mick Abraham says he sells BattEQ(TM) balancer built by Smart Spark Energy
Systems. Look through the EV album and see what other people use. Lee Hart
has designed some systems and are available periodically. Rich Rudman sells
Rudman Regulators.
Some people use a modular charging system to bring each battery up to full
charge periodically. If you have a single small charger on each battery, and
you can confirm it worked perfectly, then you should have confidence that
all the batteries are fully charged. There are many good 12 volt, low
current chargers available to do this.
I would probably start looking at EVParts.com and EVSource.com for candidate
regulators and chargers.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Former owner of 48 Volt Fiesta
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 8:59 PM
Subject: Battery Balancer/Regulator???
> First of all, a battery balancer and equalizer as they are sometimes
> called are the same thing, right?
>
> Okay, and for AGM batteries I know that you need something to make
> sure the batteries never become overcharged; so which do you need a
> balancer or a regulator for an AGM back?
>
> What are some good manufacturers of either balancers or regulators?
>
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Lawrence;
You sound a lot like John Wayland.
How do these sound?
"Home brewing innovation the automotive producers can't or won't"
"Driving the future of automotive technology"
"Conspiring against big oil"
"Using 18th century inventions to stop producing dirty air"
"Building petroleum free transportation"
"Free advice is worth every penny you paid for it"
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Former owner of 48 Volt Fiesta
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 2:49 PM
Subject: Catch phrase for the EVDL
> We have already made the mistakes so you don't have to. What do you
think?
> Lawrence Rhodes...
>
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My earlier post was eaten by the server. Here it is again in plain text.
On 7/9/07, Tom Messick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
There is no flywheel in your pictures. Here is one on a VW engine.
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/pix/683524.jpg
The big bolt in the middle (called a gland nut for some reason) holds it on
and there are four small holes in it that fit on the dowels visible in your
first
picture. The clutch attaches to the flywheel with six bolts around the edge.
You can see the holes for the bolts in the picture I've included. The torque
to hold the flywheel on is over 200 foot-pounds.
The hole holding the micrometer stand is one used for the engine bolts. It
is very close to the flywheel. It looks like your motor adapter should be
flipped over to bring the mounting holes near the flywheel.
On 7/9/07, Bart Grabman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I just got the rest of my parts for my adaptor from EVParts for my '71 VW
> Super Beetle, and have the motor bolted on to the adaptor and flywheel.
I'm
> trying to figure out what to do with the clutch though... I was under the
> impression that it stayed in the vehicle, but I can't seem to figure out
> where or how to bolt it on.
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
> http://www.freewebs.com/grabman/car/adaptor.jpg
>
http://www.freewebs.com/grabman/car/motorandadaptor.jpg
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
>
http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=hmtextlinkjuly07
>
>
--
tom
--
--
tom
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Arnold Flexing for Flex-Fuels; Fouls Air & Guzzles More Gasoline
"As I read in the San Jose Mercury News about California's flex-fuel
fleet fiasco. a near silent electric trolley bus passes by my window
on Haight St in San Francisco, an old technology tried, true, and
spurned by the environmental "experts" of the present and recent past."
http://www.plugsandcars.blogspot.com
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Bart, I'm no Bug expert but from pics I've seen it does look like you have the
adaptor backwards. If you flip it around, your
flywheel should mount right inside the adaptor. Is there a place on the
flywheel adaptor to put that 36mm "gland nut" back on to
hold the flywheel. You should have had a pressure plate that bolts onto the
flywheel. It should have little springy fingers the
point into th ecenter of the hole that press on the clutch disc. With it out
of the vehicle it should be easy enough to align by
hand without the alignment tool. I got min in on the Mitsubishi on the first
time. After you operate the the clutch thfor the
first time the clutch disc will go into perfect alignment. All you have to do
is get the transaxle shaft to fit into the splines
and a couple of your motor adaptor plate holes to line up so you can operate
the clutch lever.
There's a picture on Joe's recent EVAlbum page that shows what looks like the
adaptor "bell" shape facing forward.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1249
There's a similar shot of this Karmann Ghia http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/34
I thought I had seen someone's pics of the flywheel and clutch assembly going
together but I can't seem to find it now. Maybe
someone on the list knows where they are :-)
mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> Tom Messick wrote:
>
> ... It looks like your motor adapter should be
> > flipped over to bring the mounting holes near the flywheel.
> >
>
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