EV Digest 7025
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Wayland Invitational Videos and News on the NEDRA site
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Tropica Reducer
by "John Dinsmore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Another, fairer comparison
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Tropica Reducer
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Battery Terminals need advice!
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Electric Evette
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Battery Terminals need advice!
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Tropica Reducer
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Another, fairer comparison
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) controller max volts and motors in series
by dale henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Amost Live from PIR, 1st Update
by "Dave Wilker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) NO "NUKE" DISCUSSIONS PLEASE (was Another, fairer comparison)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Amost Live from PIR, 1st Update
by "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Time on Green Cars
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: controller max volts and motors in series
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Amost Live from PIR, 1st Update
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: NO "NUKE" DISCUSSIONS PLEASE (was Another, fairer comparison)
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: the eVette
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Another, fairer comparison
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Amost Live from PIR
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Acquiring data from Zilla/Zombie A123 run
by "Chris Brune" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 80 % discharge voltage
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all,
Roderick, Mike and Jack have been reporting back some great stuff.
Jack has some great YouTube video which I put up on the NEDRA site.
The first one is the Zombie wasting a Stang and the Killacycle doing
a warm-up run at 135 mph.
More to come
http://www.nedra.com
Chip
--- End Message ---
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--- Begin Message ---
Zeke,
> An electric car is no cleaner from a CO2 standpoint...
That would surprise me.
I would expect that in total pollution, power plants are allowed
a lot more exhaust than a (modern!) car can emit, but when you
talk about CO2, then you are simply talking about total fuel
consumption.
Since electric vehicles are so efficient, their main loss is
the efficiency of the power plant. Modern plants can achieve
about 50%, but you mention dirty (old?) coal power, so the
efficiency of those could need some improvement, to say it politely.
Anyhow, the ICE is so horrendously inefficient that it is hard
to start listing what it is that can be improved, Hybrid
vehicles had attached the most obvious issues and indeed, a
very efficient Hybrid can take on many EVs in terms of the
total energy usage, but that is not an apples to apples
comparison, because how can you compare a Prius to a S10 EV?
The calculations I have seen have always shown EVs much more
efficient in "well to wheels" comparisons, but you may live
in an area that is very backward in terms of generation of
electricity, or maybe your data is flawed - hard to tell
without all the details and I am not a specialist myself,
but I do know about EV efficiency and tricks that are
being played to make them appear to be less than the relief
that they actually bring.
One example is to compare the EPA Highway MPG of the ICE with the
actual consumption of the EV....
As always, YMMV.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 8:30 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Another, fairer comparison
I recently ran the numbers for an electric car here in Colorado (dirty
coal plants!). An electric car is no cleaner from a CO2 standpoint
than the same car on gasoline. BUT, like John says, use solar or wind. We
have program where for an extra 2.5cents a kWh you can buy windpower from
the big windfarms in CO an WY. Or, I have a solar array on my house (60%
paid for by the utility company -- they love coal, but we had a statewide
public referendum, and they were forced to offer rebates for solar), and
right now it's producing about 3
times as much as my house needs. AND, I can recharge and EV from my
house instead of having to go to Venezuala or Iraq or Nigeria or wherever,
to get fuel for it. Heck of a lot more convenient eh?
Z
On 7/14/07, Timothy Balcer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> John,
>
> Their numbers are using nationwide averages, which use the nastiest
> dirtiest coal plants as part of the equation. Of -course- the very
> latest technology lean diesel engines using biodiesel itself a fuel
> low in pollutants) will win out. It's a matter of stacking the deck,
> because as long as there is a fuel, the oil companies will have the
> hammerlock.
>
> None of that matters. Right now, this second, the grid can support 20
> million electric cars, assuming they do most of their charging at
> night. Today. That is the amount of power electric companies are
> wasting at night due to wasted capacity. What that means is that for
> the first 20 million electric cars put out there, we are lowering
> pollution no matter HOW the electricity is being produced.
>
> By the time we get 20 million electric cars out there, I'd say we
> could probably have most of those old coal plants cleaned up. So
> honestly, why even talk about this? It's an argument used by the
> petrol folks. I don't care how efficient an electric car is compared
> to petrol, honestly. I mean its NICE that they are so efficient, but
> the big thing about EVs is not that they are so efficient (although
> that is a positive aspect). The big thing about it is that you can
> power them on THE SUN. You don't need -any- liquid fuels whatsoever.
> You can use wind, solar, hydro.. any sort of natural motive power
> instead of having to -burn- anything. And since you won't -have- to,
> then people will suddenly not want to.
>
> That's the real deal. Thats the big-ness right there! This 'well to
> wheels' thing is a red herring and not worth the effort. It's like
> comparing dynamite fishing to fly fishing by talking about how many
> fish you get per joule of energy in a stick of dynamite vs. how much
> heat energy per person is spent fishing for the trout in cold water.
> Ridiculous!
>
> --T
>
> PS: For the record, Nukes are bad from an economic point of view. You
> shouldn't want nukes, mainly because they are so expensive to produce
> and maintain, and so dangerous, that the government has to underwrite
> construction, AND had to pass a bill exempting nuclear power plants
> from liability in the event of a disaster. Honestly, I'd much rather
> build craploads of wind farms and solar plants. They are the cheapest,
> long term. No liability issues, no cleanup issues, easy to operate and
> maintain.
>
> On 7/12/07, john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > There is an official government sponsored program at Argonne Labs
> > called GREET to measure exactly what you are all talking about. I have
started writing a piece about it, but the details are very complex, and its
taking a long time.
> > just google GREET argonne should bring it up...
> >
> > anyway the conclusion was highly optimized bio-diesel hybrid IIRC
> > correctly was less polluting than a pure EV using coal-fired
> > electricity. Natural-gas->H2 fuel cell was too of course. Many other
> > technologies/fuels were in the same ballpark. I can't tell yet what
parameters they used for each fuel ( and there are many) but it is truly a
well to wheels attempt at figuring out the cost.
> >
> > Before you all blow a gasket, the reason the bio-diesel does better
> > than EVs is that diesel and especially some kinds of bio-diesel,
> > take a lot less energy and less pollution than coal-fired power.
> > Obviously if you use hydro or solar/wind or natural gas to make
electricity you'll get a different result. The study uses nationwide
averages, rather than state-by-state numbers AFAIK.
> >
> > caveat- haven't crunched all the numbers yet, so read it yourself.
> >
> > Lesson I take from it?
> > You are only as clean as your electrons.
> > gotta get existing coal plants cleaned up right away and focus on
> > all new plants to minimize pollution. Nukes will help but are many years
out. I believe this could be seen as a political statement too.
> >
> > John
> >
> > GWMobile wrote:
> > > The comparision has been done it the amount of pollutants released
> > > for electric car power production is miniscule compared to automotive
gas use.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
> better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in
> peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the
> hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may
> posterity forget that you were our countrymen.
>
> -----Samuel Adams
>
>
--
Zeke Yewdall
Chief Electrical Engineer
Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company
Cell: 720.352.2508
Office: 303.459.0177
FAX documents to: 720.269.1240
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.cosunflower.com
CoSEIA Certified
Certified BP Solar Installer
National Association of Home Builders
Quotable Quote
"In the dark of the moon, in flying snow, in the dead of winter, war
spreading, families dying, the world in danger, I walk the rocky hillside
sowing clover."
Wendell Berry
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Bill,
Dodge Power Transmission Components, a division of Rockwell will have any
thing you can dream of and much more. Also Browning is another company that
also has bearings, bushings, taperlocks, pulleys, sheaves, couplers,
electric activators, electric clutches, tooth belts, and industrial cog
belts.
I use the Dodge units through out my EV, even a taperlock coupler bushing
that fits my motor flange coupler is made by them.
Many Bearing Sales and machine shops may stock these items.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 8:17 AM
Subject: Re: Tropica Reducer
> Regarding my previous post, all I can say is, "Ug, it's too early in the
> morning." The "toothed belt acceptor" should have just said "pulley" --
> a lot less keystrokes. :)
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was a bit surprised when I ordered some 4/0 battery terminals thinking
they would be all copper with plating. They arrived today (24 of them) and
to my surprise the heads themselves are made of lead.
I see this as a problem since they cannot be soldered on and if they are
overcrimped it might crush the connector part made of plated copper away
causing a bad connection later. I also see some potential for the torque
backing off over time.
So I need advice. Should I send these back? If so what should I get
instead?
I don't want to waste expensive cable if these are not going to work so if
anyone is using them let me know.
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ops, looks like I pulled those numbers from the MYASS database. I
stand corrected and the Evette does indeed have a impressive battery
weight ratio. However I'm sure the same could be done in a custom
built four wheeler.
On 7/13/07, jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Peter and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Electric Evette
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 16:33:20 -0700
>I'm pretty sure both the EV1 (or at least the Impact) and
>the Solectria sunrise held about 2/3 of their weight in
>batteries. This is a result of having been designed as EVs
>from the ground up using lightweight composites
>construction, much like your Evette.
The EV-1 had 1/3 it's weight in lead batts. But was
such a low drag EV it could do 100 miles on that.
The Sunrise has never had more than 50% battery
weight.
>
>So if you argument is about custom designed EV vs
>conversion EV then it's true, however, it doesn't say much
>about your choice of vehicle configuration. In fact I think
>both previously mentioned vehicles carry slightly more
>batteries/weight than the Evette (can't find the data) and
>with those two giant wheels on the back I'm sure you get
>less range due to rolling resistance.
I'd probably agree with that. Hard to tell as he
gives little info.
>
>It's a very nifty vehicle though.
>
>
>
>
>On 7/13/07, Tom S. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hi Peter,
>>
>> Let me explain in a little more detail, the Evette
>weighs about a 1000lbs without batteries,it will bold up to
>40 orbital batteries at about 40lbs a piece, thats about
>1600lbs.Thats a ratio of 1.6/1, and a total weight of
>2600lbs. Electric conversions that can hold 40 orbitals
>,will be 2000lbs or more,thats a total weight of 3600lbs or
>>more. Agree or disagree?
I hold 60% battery weight in my EV and see no reason
to hold more as 100 mile+ range is all I need.
But mine weights 400 lbs less than yours -batts with
probably much better crash protection, strength so I see no
advantage over your version vs my composite tadpole
3wheeler. When it gets done I'll be glad to race you, time
wise, as I'd never be on the same track head to head as your
vehicle for safety reasons.
The BBB is where you needed to go and put your EV
though it's paces on the autocross course. Of course you
could have been at the last 2 to prove your EV but you
didn't, why?
Jerry Dycus
--
www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Send them back or trade them for some plate brass ones at a independent auto
parts store.
The shrink back will be great using these terminals. They will compress down
until the ends will touch and than you are done with them. A EV battery
terminal needs about 75 inch lbs of torque for any thing over 200 amps
continuous.
They cannot stand a continuous ampere over 200 amps for long. I use one
temporary, and it did not last long.
Get the brass plate ones which should have a long barrel for double
crimping.
Be sure you slip the heat shrink on the cable before you crimp these on,
other wise you have to use a very large heat shrink to get it over the
terminal. The walls of the heat shrink will get so thick, that it will be
like conduit.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 10:49 AM
Subject: Battery Terminals need advice!
> I was a bit surprised when I ordered some 4/0 battery terminals thinking
> they would be all copper with plating. They arrived today (24 of them)
> and
> to my surprise the heads themselves are made of lead.
>
> I see this as a problem since they cannot be soldered on and if they are
> overcrimped it might crush the connector part made of plated copper away
> causing a bad connection later. I also see some potential for the torque
> backing off over time.
>
> So I need advice. Should I send these back? If so what should I get
> instead?
>
> I don't want to waste expensive cable if these are not going to work so if
> anyone is using them let me know.
>
> Mark Ward
> 95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
> www.saabrina.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Dinsmore wrote:
Browning makes pulleys and belts like you described. 1" belts good for 20hp.
John, I should have mentioned that the Tropica belts are 2 inches wide.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Unless I goofed up the calculations somehow, here's how it got it.
Gasoline pickup truck, 24mpg. 19lbs CO2 per gallon. End result is
about 0.79 lbs of CO2 per mile.
Electric pickup truck, 300watthours per mile, 85% charging
efficiency, 2lbs CO2 per kWh (that's what Colorado's mix is). End
result is 0.71lbs CO2 per mile.
See why I went solar?
Neither of these take into account the emissions from mining the coal
for the power plant, or drilling for the oil for the gasoline -- I
believe that gasoline takes more energy to get to the pump, than coal
takes to get to the power plant, but not sure about the numbers on
that. If so, the electric car numbers would be slightly better.
In California, the CO2 load from power plants averages about 1lb/kWh
-- so the electric car is more like 0.35lbs/mile. Much better than
the ICE.
Z
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
regarding the 84v kelly controller it states that it
has a max voltage of 100v, but if i use a 96 volt pack
of AGMs they will have a starting voltage a bit over
100v at full charge. will the controller shut down
above 100v or just limit voltage to 100v?
does any one know much about kelly controllers?
quality?
also i'm having a hard time convincing my self that
motors in series work [sorry i don't have an EE
background]. just to check: it is possible to arrange
two motors in such away that if i apply 96 volts they
each receive 48 volts?
thanks again for all the list's help
Albuquerque, NM
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1221
http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
____________________________________________________________________________________
Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the
tools to get online.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do the rules allows using screws to keep the rim from slipping against the
bead?
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
From: "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Killacycle blew the crowd away and I suspect tonight will break records if
they can keep the rear tire on the rim (they spun it right off the bead on
their first burnout of the night!).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks, please don't respond to the "nukes" (nuclear power) portion of
Timothy Balcer's post. This is a controversial subject and off-topic for
the EVDL. If you would like to discuss this with Timothy, PLEASE do so in
private email to him.
Pro-nuke / anti-nuke arguments are nothing but trouble. They're
inappropriate for the EVDL, waste bandwidth, and cause members to
unsubscribe. Despite all this, they don't change anyone's mind, so they're
a complete waste of the EVDL.
Thanks,
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wondered about that. Bill Dube kind of looked at me like I was nuts when I
suggested it, but at the moment he had plenty on his mind just trying to get
enough air out of his compressor to put the tire back on!
Lon Hull,
Portland, OR
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Wilker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: Amost Live from PIR, 1st Update
Do the rules allows using screws to keep the rim from slipping against the
bead?
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
From: "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Killacycle blew the crowd away and I suspect tonight will break records if
they can keep the rear tire on the rim (they spun it right off the bead on
their first burnout of the night!).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Green Autos in the Times: Hybrid Hype, Hydrogen Hooey and Electric
Dreams
http://www.plugsandcars.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What I found when I connected two PM 90 volts in series on a 180 volt pack,
that one motor had 130 volts across it and the other was 60 volts. So, that
did not work. Talking to a motor shop one time on this, they said there may
be more windings on one rotor than the other, making not a match pair.
Also they said something about brush position on the commentator. If one
brush is over lapping two commentator segments on one motor while the other
is lapping three segments or not lapping at all.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "dale henderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 12:08 PM
Subject: controller max volts and motors in series
>
> regarding the 84v kelly controller it states that it
> has a max voltage of 100v, but if i use a 96 volt pack
> of AGMs they will have a starting voltage a bit over
> 100v at full charge. will the controller shut down
> above 100v or just limit voltage to 100v?
>
> does any one know much about kelly controllers?
> quality?
>
> also i'm having a hard time convincing my self that
> motors in series work [sorry i don't have an EE
> background]. just to check: it is possible to arrange
> two motors in such away that if i apply 96 volts they
> each receive 48 volts?
>
> thanks again for all the list's help
>
> Albuquerque, NM
> http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1221
> http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all
> the tools to get online.
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do the rules allows using screws to keep the rim from slipping against the
bead?
Yes, it's standard practice.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Apologies! Didnt realize it was a sensitive topic!
On 7/14/07, David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Folks, please don't respond to the "nukes" (nuclear power) portion of
Timothy Balcer's post. This is a controversial subject and off-topic for
the EVDL. If you would like to discuss this with Timothy, PLEASE do so in
private email to him.
Pro-nuke / anti-nuke arguments are nothing but trouble. They're
inappropriate for the EVDL, waste bandwidth, and cause members to
unsubscribe. Despite all this, they don't change anyone's mind, so they're
a complete waste of the EVDL.
Thanks,
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in
peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the
hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may
posterity forget that you were our countrymen.
-----Samuel Adams
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check out any vintage of army tank for a "di wheel" diff-steering vehicle.
The current iterations of the M1 Abrams can hit highway speeds.
Of course having a track "cheats" as far as stability, and technically it's
got way more than 2 wheels, but still shows it's possible.
Seems like synch of the 2 motors would get easier at higher speeds as
inertia and aero forces would want to keep the vehicle straight.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: the eVette
You guys have missed some essential points about Tom's car, IMO. In
treating it as some sort of challenge to be debunked, you haven't noticed
what he has achieved, assuming the small pix and video are fair
representations.
Technically its a "di-wheel" : a concept that goes almost all the way back
to the safety bicycle. I have mused over similar chassis configurations
for a couple of years now, and done some dilettante-level research. ( if
anyone has links or SAE papers or pix, I am always grateful). To my
knowledge no one has actually built a road-legal di-wheel before with
differential steering ( unless you count the Segway- I didn't because it
has some pretty fancy software controls and is slow). Now, given that in
the auto world, *everything* has been done before, I expect somebody to
come up with a counter-example, indeed thats a part of my motivation. I
was thinking of trying a di-wheel myself with RC model truck and tank
parts, so I wouldn't kill myself in a prototype, but if Tom has done what
he says he has, then that is unnecessary - it *is* possible to steer with
differential power/braking without massive instability. I was worried it
would take traction-control + ABS using software ( like a Segway) to make
it stable.
This doesn't mean *anything* about the commercial viability or ultimate
street-worthiness of the concept, not to mention marketability, and that
brings up my second point: its a *prototype* Its not supposed to be a
finished product, its a proof of concept. It's not good engineering to
challenge it on the same grounds you would a production car - those
problems you bring up, like controller failure, are future issues for the
millions-of-dollars phase. They are fun to discuss, sure. but they aren't
properly treated as a failure of design, they are simply work to be done.
Since many people on this list drive lead-sleds at or near over-weight
without improving the suspension or brakes, and/or contemplate
pusher-trailers, it seems to me you should cut the guy some slack.
Tom, your project would be more credible and indeed more interesting, if
you simply took some good pictures and posted them on your site. Any $150
digital camera will do well enough.
Thats about my 2 cents worth for the week
cheers
John
tom sines replied:
Thought you would never ask, go to electricevette.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Co2 and globalwarming is not the number one reason to encourage EV use.
Polllution is.
Pollution kills people everyday and raises healthcare costs enormously.
Global warming and co2 may kill us in 20 50 or 200 years but pollution
is scarring your lungs RIGHT THIS SECOND.
Frankly I wish people would spend more time talking about pollution than
co2.
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:00 am, Cor van de Water wrote:
Zeke,
An electric car is no cleaner from a CO2 standpoint...
That would surprise me.
I would expect that in total pollution, power plants are allowed
a lot more exhaust than a (modern!) car can emit, but when you
talk about CO2, then you are simply talking about total fuel
consumption.
Since electric vehicles are so efficient, their main loss is
the efficiency of the power plant. Modern plants can achieve
about 50%, but you mention dirty (old?) coal power, so the
efficiency of those could need some improvement, to say it politely.
Anyhow, the ICE is so horrendously inefficient that it is hard
to start listing what it is that can be improved, Hybrid
vehicles had attached the most obvious issues and indeed, a
very efficient Hybrid can take on many EVs in terms of the
total energy usage, but that is not an apples to apples
comparison, because how can you compare a Prius to a S10 EV?
The calculations I have seen have always shown EVs much more
efficient in "well to wheels" comparisons, but you may live
in an area that is very backward in terms of generation of
electricity, or maybe your data is flawed - hard to tell
without all the details and I am not a specialist myself,
but I do know about EV efficiency and tricks that are
being played to make them appear to be less than the relief
that they actually bring.
One example is to compare the EPA Highway MPG of the ICE with the
actual consumption of the EV....
As always, YMMV.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 8:30 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Another, fairer comparison
I recently ran the numbers for an electric car here in Colorado (dirty
coal plants!). An electric car is no cleaner from a CO2 standpoint
than the same car on gasoline. BUT, like John says, use solar or
wind. We
have program where for an extra 2.5cents a kWh you can buy windpower
from
the big windfarms in CO an WY. Or, I have a solar array on my house
(60%
paid for by the utility company -- they love coal, but we had a
statewide
public referendum, and they were forced to offer rebates for solar),
and
right now it's producing about 3
times as much as my house needs. AND, I can recharge and EV from my
house instead of having to go to Venezuala or Iraq or Nigeria or
wherever,
to get fuel for it. Heck of a lot more convenient eh?
Z
On 7/14/07, Timothy Balcer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
John,
Their numbers are using nationwide averages, which use the nastiest
dirtiest coal plants as part of the equation. Of -course- the very
latest technology lean diesel engines using biodiesel itself a fuel
low in pollutants) will win out. It's a matter of stacking the deck,
because as long as there is a fuel, the oil companies will have the
hammerlock.
None of that matters. Right now, this second, the grid can support 20
million electric cars, assuming they do most of their charging at
night. Today. That is the amount of power electric companies are
wasting at night due to wasted capacity. What that means is that for
the first 20 million electric cars put out there, we are lowering
pollution no matter HOW the electricity is being produced.
By the time we get 20 million electric cars out there, I'd say we
could probably have most of those old coal plants cleaned up. So
honestly, why even talk about this? It's an argument used by the
petrol folks. I don't care how efficient an electric car is compared
to petrol, honestly. I mean its NICE that they are so efficient, but
the big thing about EVs is not that they are so efficient (although
that is a positive aspect). The big thing about it is that you can
power them on THE SUN. You don't need -any- liquid fuels whatsoever.
You can use wind, solar, hydro.. any sort of natural motive power
instead of having to -burn- anything. And since you won't -have- to,
then people will suddenly not want to.
That's the real deal. Thats the big-ness right there! This 'well to
wheels' thing is a red herring and not worth the effort. It's like
comparing dynamite fishing to fly fishing by talking about how many
fish you get per joule of energy in a stick of dynamite vs. how much
heat energy per person is spent fishing for the trout in cold water.
Ridiculous!
--T
PS: For the record, Nukes are bad from an economic point of view. You
shouldn't want nukes, mainly because they are so expensive to produce
and maintain, and so dangerous, that the government has to underwrite
construction, AND had to pass a bill exempting nuclear power plants
from liability in the event of a disaster. Honestly, I'd much rather
build craploads of wind farms and solar plants. They are the cheapest,
long term. No liability issues, no cleanup issues, easy to operate and
maintain.
On 7/12/07, john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There is an official government sponsored program at Argonne Labs
> called GREET to measure exactly what you are all talking about. I
have
started writing a piece about it, but the details are very complex, and
its
taking a long time.
> just google GREET argonne should bring it up...
>
> anyway the conclusion was highly optimized bio-diesel hybrid IIRC
> correctly was less polluting than a pure EV using coal-fired
> electricity. Natural-gas->H2 fuel cell was too of course. Many other
> technologies/fuels were in the same ballpark. I can't tell yet what
parameters they used for each fuel ( and there are many) but it is
truly a
well to wheels attempt at figuring out the cost.
>
> Before you all blow a gasket, the reason the bio-diesel does better
> than EVs is that diesel and especially some kinds of bio-diesel,
> take a lot less energy and less pollution than coal-fired power.
> Obviously if you use hydro or solar/wind or natural gas to make
electricity you'll get a different result. The study uses nationwide
averages, rather than state-by-state numbers AFAIK.
>
> caveat- haven't crunched all the numbers yet, so read it yourself.
>
> Lesson I take from it?
> You are only as clean as your electrons.
> gotta get existing coal plants cleaned up right away and focus on
> all new plants to minimize pollution. Nukes will help but are many
years
out. I believe this could be seen as a political statement too.
>
> John
>
> GWMobile wrote:
> > The comparision has been done it the amount of pollutants released
> > for electric car power production is miniscule compared to
automotive
gas use.
> >
> >
>
>
--
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in
peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the
hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may
posterity forget that you were our countrymen.
-----Samuel Adams
--
Zeke Yewdall
Chief Electrical Engineer
Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company
Cell: 720.352.2508
Office: 303.459.0177
FAX documents to: 720.269.1240
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.cosunflower.com
CoSEIA Certified
Certified BP Solar Installer
National Association of Home Builders
Quotable Quote
"In the dark of the moon, in flying snow, in the dead of winter, war
spreading, families dying, the world in danger, I walk the rocky
hillside
sowing clover."
Wendell Berry
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hehe nice to hear.
I'm developing an affinity for these new lithium cells myself.
especielly the part about being borderline affordable (although hard to get)
Wayland might have to go to 4WD to make it go below 10 seconds
obviously given enough lithium the power is more than there
An EV that can beat even the NOX boys might be another nail in the ICE
coffin
hmm, a name for a new controlller.... ICE coffin :)
Dan
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Some of the folks from the Killacycle team were wondering how I was
capturing data from the Zilla to a Palm V for John Wayland and the Zombie
team. So I thought I'd repost how I'm doing it. I posted this originally
last year.
One thing I forgot to mention below is the hardware side of it. The Palm V
is native RS-232. So just need the adapter cable that converts the Palm
connector into a DB9 serial connector. Additionally you may need a null
mode adapter/cable to be able to connect to the Zilla. I would imagine the
below methods would work with other Palms besides the Palm V, anything that
can do serial RS-232 communications.
Last night I was able to capture data on several runs of the Zombie with the
A123 pack. The last run was particularly interesting due to the incident at
the end of the track. We all got a good laugh at Tim's futile attempt to
slow Zombie down when the throttle stuck. The data shows him slowing down a
bit (with the Zilla still putting out full power). But quickly he did the
right thing and pulled the "Oh Sh*t" handle. Throttle stayed stuck for
quite some time after that (~ 30 seconds).
Regards,
Chris Brune
Excerpt of oringal post:
In the past John has been putting his Mac laptop in the passenger seat and
capturing data using a program called Zterm. There are a number of
logistical issues with this. The laptop battery can't handle a full night
of racing. I personally worry about submitting the laptop to the vibration
and G's associated with going down the drag strip. And the bottom line is
the laptop is a bit bulky to have in the car with you.
My thought was let's figure out a way to get my Palm V to do this job. So
my solution involves the following programs:
ptelnet - this is the Palm terminal emulator that Otmar recommends for use
with the Zilla. It is very handy for interacting with the Zilla, but does
not have the ability to capture large data files.
AccessIt! - This is a different terminal emulator for the Palm. It is not
as good at interacting with the Zilla, but it does generate great log files.
These log files are stored as pdb (Palm database) files on the Palm. Each
log file is conveniently time and date stamped.
Weasel Reader - Weasel is a program that is intended for viewing pdb files.
It has the added feature of being able to beam these files as well. This
program is used to beam the logfile generated by AccessIt! to a PC.
Wordpad - Windows text editor. I use this program to edit out unwanted info
in the logfile.
FasTrack - This is the PC based program that SEVO (www.suncoast.net) put
together for graphing Zilla data. Thanks!
The process goes like this:
1. First setup the Zilla to start sending data. I do this using ptelnet on
the Palm. This is done from the "p" menu using command "Q4" (make sure "Q"
is upper case).
2. Now start AccessIt!. When you are ready to start logging data click
"OnLine". This will start logging the data to a file. The fun part begins
here, go drive/race your EV. When you are done click "OffLine" to close the
log file.
3. The next thing we need to do is send the data to a PC. There are other
ways to do this, but I wanted to do this via IR. My laptop has an IR port
and so does the Palm V. So I go into Weasel, select the log file I want to
send (filename starts "AccessLog-....). Then from the menu select Beam
Book. The PC then picks up the file and stores it (in my case it shows up
on the desktop).
4. I then use Wordpad to edit and view the file. There is some garbage at
the begging of the file I delete out. In drag racing there is a fair amount
of unwanted data so I can edit that out as well.
5. Then you can open the file in FasTrack.
FasTrack is a great tool for quickly analyzing data from the Zilla. There
are a couple of suggestions I have for making it more useful.
First, everytime a "trace" is turned on and off it resets the x-axis
scaling. This is fairly annoying if you are trying to analyze a specific
portion of the data.
Second, the Zilla is spitting out some data that isn't shown in FasTrack.
Specifically which mode the controller is in. Zombie is constantly dancing
with different Zilla limits (battery voltage, battery current, motor
current). It would be helpful if there were some way to graphically show
which mode the Zilla is in.
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--- Begin Message ---
On 14 Jul 2007 at 0:00, Jerry Wagner wrote:
> I get readings much lower during
> acceleration, down in the low 120's. Is this normal?
The chart you quoted appears to be open-circuit voltage for flooded lead
batteries at various states of charge, which isn't very useful for answering
your question.
I don't have numbers for different SOC, but the rule of thumb is that a lead
battery that falls to 1.75 volts per cell under load is effectively flat >at
that load<. For a 144 volt battery, that would be 126 volts. If you're
seeing voltages in the lower 120s on a 144v pack, either the pack is flat or
you're simply drawing too much current.
I'm not familiar with the Deka GC-15 batteries. Are they gel batteries?
Deka Dominator gel should be held to 3C max. For the 8GGC2 golf car
batteries (the model number I'm familiar with), that would be 540 amps.
Really, IMO the practical limit for any golf car battery, gel or flooded, is
about 500-600 amps. If you need or want more power than your voltage can
deliver at that current, you should probably go to AGMs.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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