Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-10-01 Thread tomw via EV
I live in a small city, so most "city" driving here would more likely be what you call suburban driving, with maybe 3 to 8 stops per mile. Another comparison: I noticed that on a 32 mile one way trip on an interstate I used much lower energy per mile compared to normal when there was

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-30 Thread Ed Blackmond via EV
> On Sep 28, 2015, at 1:39 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: > > For example, my Leaf gets about 1.5 - 2.5 miles per kWh (depending on > accessories and temperature) on city streets where I live. But if I go 60mph > on the freeway, I can sometimes get 4 miles per kWh. I

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-30 Thread Ed Blackmond via EV
> On Sep 29, 2015, at 4:09 AM, paul dove via EV wrote: > > Easy, > The only people buying EVs now are early adopters. It's new and most people > are afraid of them. Here in Silicon Valley, there are traffic lanes dedicated to EV’s. These used to be for carpools and they

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-30 Thread tomw via EV
The people I know with Leafs have similar experience as Ed, greater range if they drive around town at lower speeds than if they drive on the highway at higher speeds. My experience with my conversion is the same. I consistently use about 240 Wh/mile at 60 mph and about 180 Wh/mile at 35 mph,

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-30 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
And what does "around town" mean to you? To me urban driving means two or three urban-sized blocks between stops, hills, and no highways. Nothing much over 30mph. Peri -- Original Message -- From: "tomw via EV" To: ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 30-Sep-15 5:53:03 PM

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-30 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Suburban streets are completely different. I believe you that you get 3.9 in that environment. I get that, too, when driving outside the urban core. But try driving Mission street or anywhere around downtown SF and see what you get. That said, if there was any trade-off in the design to

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-29 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
On 28 Sep 2015 at 21:30, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote: > Our budget ev's fail because they are too heavy. I wasn't going to write anthing more about this subject, but I have to respond to this. YOU may consider YOUR budget EVs to be failures, and that's entirely your right. Maybe they

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-29 Thread Mark Abramowitz via EV
I think that's part of the reason. EV or not, you don't see a lot of demand for tiny, light cars either. Part of the reason is safety, or perceived safety, part may be visibility, part of it is comfort, and frankly, a lot of people just can't get into very small cars. Sent from my iPhone > On

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-29 Thread paul dove via EV
Easy, The only people buying EVs now are early adopters. It's new and most people are afraid of them. People who already had a lead EV, people who only buy the latest tech, and green people, those are the customer base. Elon Musk said that he would go to high society dinners and functions and

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-29 Thread Lawrence Rhodes via EV
"The car he had in California was electric. It had a 10KWh battery and would go 100 miles between charges - It weighed under 1,000 pounds. I rode in the car some 50 miles or so, and was impressed with the ride, comfort etc. It carried 4 passengers. " Maybe it's the tires but the VLC gets nowhere

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-29 Thread Sean Korb via EV
I'm trying to imagine the survivability rate of an F-350 Dually in a head on collision with a semi. A lot of selling a vehicle to customers is perception, not what they might experience in the real world. Most of what is needed is the perception of fun, and while other car buyers have different

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-29 Thread Jukka Järvinen via EV
I think there is an opening for this niche light vehicle market. It just has to be taken with extreme measures. If one could build that economic bullet-shaped Kevlar-Carbonfibre-Ceramic-nano-nano-nanotube car which would prevail on head-on collision with semi-truck... If it's light and beats the

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-29 Thread rayfellow via EV
I kept up with Oliver Kuttner after he pitched his VLC here in California. The cars efficency and cost inputs were much lower than conventional cars. He was hoping for a third world market. Dang, the VLC weighed 1,000 pounds and would carry just about its weight in passengers and baggage. A

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-29 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
On 29 Sep 2015 at 14:46, Ben Goren via EV wrote: > Musk got it absolutely right. Build a great car that just happens to have an > electric drivetrain. People will buy it because it's a great car, and the > premium price for the batteries and what-not doesn't even register for those > who'd buy

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-29 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Sep 29, 2015, at 2:20 PM, rayfellow via EV wrote: > A tribute to Tesla's market strategy is, the cost of batteries is relitively > high now. If you're going to put them in a car, make it an expensive one ie. > Tesla Model S or X. This is another very important point.

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-29 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
On 29 Sep 2015 at 15:32, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote: > The VLC may get 100 miles on 10kw of batteries but Stella gets 375 > miles on 16kw. I read 268, not 375. Still quite literally incredible. >  I think the difference is the motor and the tires as the CD is the > same. Most likely

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-29 Thread Jukka Järvinen via EV
That is very true. It's 'cool' to drive EV's nowadays. They're fun and quick but also safe. That fame is all thanks to Tesla. But for some reason NEDRA did not achieve the same results while it was quick and fun. Too nerdy to be associated to? It seems to be a combination of many things while

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-28 Thread John Lussmyer via EV
On Mon Sep 28 21:12:35 PDT 2015 ev@lists.evdl.org said: >I thought that both would be well recieved. Alas the VLC still sits waiting >for traction. No one seems interested in it. I wondered why? Does it have Stereo, Air Conditioning, windows that open, comfy seats, reasonable acceleration?

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-28 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Sep 28, 2015, at 9:12 PM, rayfellow via EV wrote: > The difference in per mile costs for an efficient EV vs a > heavy user is still not all that much. This is a _very_ significant part of the equation. My parents recently bought a Leaf. They love it, can't stop talking

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-28 Thread Mike Nickerson via EV
Personally, I think there are two factors. First, performance. A Tesla is a thrill at every stop light (especially if you are first in line). Second, commercialization and availability. Elon Musk had the drive and push to get his car built and available around the world. Three years ago,

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-28 Thread rayfellow via EV
In 2012 I was helping Oliver Kuttner promote his VLC or Very Light Car. It was very aerodynamic too (0.16 drag). His team won the X prize in 2008 - getting 108 or so MPG with fuel. The car he had in California was electric. It had a 10KWh battery and would go 100 miles between charges - It weighed

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-28 Thread Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Our budget ev's fail because they are too heavy.  If you converted or built a small light vehicle using a kit as are available you will find that you will gain in every area with a small pack and light vehicle.  Look at Stella Lux.   Pushing a 700 mile range with 15kw pack.   Look at what the

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-28 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
On 28 Sep 2015 at 20:31, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote: > The debate should be about  light or heavy vehicles and efficiency.  If you > have an efficient vehicle that is light you might draw 55wh per mile.  The > typical heavy conversion like the I3 , Leaf, Rav4, IMEV, or any other of the >

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-28 Thread Jukka Järvinen via EV
AH! But our conversions were always compromises as the new technology did not fit nicely anywhere. Light vehicles are OK but majority of people do not think that way. They require 'safe' cars and that's what sells. It would be far more better if everyone worked from home and only walked around the

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-28 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
I think the key factor is the Cd of .16. While I think lighter vehicles are better for many reasons, it doesn't seem to make that much difference in efficiency unless you are spending most of your time on slow speed city streets. For example, my Leaf gets about 1.5 - 2.5 miles per kWh

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-28 Thread Jukka Järvinen via EV
I think it's more important to think how the user benefits from the battery sizing. While it might sound irrational to have 150kWh onboard it would enable stressless driving with longer useful lifetime. The vehicle it self will have better resale value as it remains more usable even after 10 or

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-28 Thread Mike Nickerson via EV
I think it is key to remember, though, that a Cd of 0.16 is deep into concept car territory. Most small cars are 0.28-0.32. The Toyota Prius is 0.25. The Tesla Model S is 0.24. There isn't much under 0.24 that isn't concept or experimental (except the EV1 at 0.195).

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-28 Thread Peter Eckhoff via EV
I don't think there is a need for a debate as much as figuring out the right questions to ask or want to ask. What sort of range do you **need**? What do you expect out of the vehicle (commuter vehicle, go'fer runs, pickup truck, taxi, etc.)? What is the shortest time do you want

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-28 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
The Leaf is a great car overall but for stop & go city driving, the regen often cuts out when braking and switches to mechanical - sometimes I can feel the switchover. Even if there was no regen, an earlier thread on this forum illustrated that regen probably only adds about 5% to the miles /