Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-10-01 Thread tomw via EV
I live in a small city, so most "city" driving here would more likely be what
you call suburban driving, with maybe 3 to 8 stops per mile.  

Another comparison: I noticed that on a 32 mile one way trip on an
interstate I used much lower energy per mile compared to normal when there
was construction and traffic was ~10 mph repeated stop and go for about 15
miles of the trip.  I used only regen for stopping, which helps a little,
and acceleration rates were very low which also helps. 

I also have found that as long as I drive a closed loop there isn't much
difference in energy used per mile whether the route has large hills or is
relatively flat.  The combined coasting and regen braking down hill
evidently compensate for the large energy per mile going uphill to give an
average similar to driving on flatter terrain.  This was very surprising to
me at first, but I've recorded it many times over the years.

I was also surprised to find that my car has significantly greater range
compared to some friends Leafs for trips with large uphill elevation changes
(1000's of ft).  I guess because it is about 2/3 the mass of a Leaf and has
smaller CdA.  I almost got some friends with a Leaf in trouble because I
told them they could make a certain trip easily based on my experience going
there, but they used much more energy per mile going up hill so were low on
charge when they reached the destination. On the other hand, their heater
(2013 model) uses less power than mine, so their range is considerably less
affected by heating.  Lots of things to consider when advising someone with
an ev whether they can drive a certain distance.

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-30 Thread Ed Blackmond via EV

> On Sep 28, 2015, at 1:39 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> For example, my Leaf gets about 1.5 - 2.5 miles per kWh (depending on 
> accessories and temperature) on city streets where I live.  But if I go 60mph 
> on the freeway, I can sometimes get 4 miles per kWh.

I don’t have any hard data to back this up, but my experience with my 2011 Leaf 
seems to be exactly the opposite.  Since I got the car 50 months and 43,000 
miles ago, I have been averaging 3.9 miles/KWH according to the number 
presented on the display.  I definitely get considerably better range on 
city/suburban streets than I do on the Freeway.  If I keep my top speed below 
50MPH and never allow more than 5 power dots displayed (one is always 
displayed), I can get about 75 miles on a single charge (I got 81 once).  If I 
put about 40 miles on the Freeway at 65MPH with the rest on city/suburban 
streets, my range goes down to about 60 miles.  Using the heater in the winter 
(if you can call it that here in Silicon Valley) and it drops by another 10 
miles.  How people claim they can get 84 miles or better driving normally is 
beyond me.

Even though I’m down to 9 of 12 capacity bars, I have yet to notice any drop in 
range or the length of time it takes to charge from the very low battery 
warning to 100%.  The maximum charge time has never been longer than 5 hours.  
With a 3.3KW charger I claim my supposedly 24KWH pack never had a usable 
capacity of more than 16.5KWH and still has that capacity.

Ed


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-30 Thread Ed Blackmond via EV

> On Sep 29, 2015, at 4:09 AM, paul dove via EV  wrote:
> 
> Easy,
> The only people buying EVs now are early adopters. It's new and most people 
> are afraid of them. 

Here in Silicon Valley, there are traffic lanes dedicated to EV’s.  These used 
to be for carpools and they still allow carpools in those lanes, but they are 
now EV lanes.  I think this is why people around here are buying EVs.  
Everybody I know who has an EV or is considering getting one says the EV lane 
is the main reason.

Ed
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-30 Thread tomw via EV
The people I know with Leafs have similar experience as Ed, greater range if
they drive around town at lower speeds than if they drive on the highway at
higher speeds.  My experience with my conversion is the same.  I
consistently use about 240 Wh/mile at 60 mph and about 180 Wh/mile at 35
mph, both on approximately level terrain, confirmed by data logging battery
current and voltage, as well as just checking energy use after a trip.

I generally get around 10% of energy used on a trip returned by regen. 
Usually get about 50 -55% of kinetic energy back into the batteries during
braking, and about the same percentage of vehicle potential energy back
going down hill.  You have to remember that the some of the KE and PE is
used to do work against rolling resistance and drag forces when coasting
downhill and braking with regen.  I posted quite a bit of data on this here:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=366384=20

Maybe Peri drives on more hills in city driving than on the highway?

As far as the main topic, I would prefer a larger pack, one that gives 150
mile range at 60 mph on level ground at 75F ambient, to my current 65 mile
range at those conditions.  I have been driving a small car for several
years (Suzuki Swift) in an area where at least 40% of cars are large pickup
trucks (quite a few dual wheel) and large SUVs like Escalade and Excursion.
Doesn't bother me.  I think a small light car with a tough, strong shell
could be quite safe - bounce off a big truck intact, like an electron off an
argon atom. :^)  'Course being smashed between two large vehicles would be a
different story.

Ian Wright (original designer of the Tesla drive train) and founder of
Wrightspeed, said he didn't think Musk would sell any electric cars because
they were too expensive.  That's why he left and designed a system for heavy
commercial vehicles where there is much greater fuel cost savings.  High
end, high quality, sexy cars was likely the only way for Musk to be
successful, and likely something Wright didn't foresee, or doubted they
could pull off - pretty unusual for a startup to make such a highly
acclaimed car right out of the chute.



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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-30 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
And what does "around town" mean to you?  To me urban driving means two 
or three urban-sized blocks between stops, hills, and no highways.  
Nothing much over 30mph.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "tomw via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: 30-Sep-15 5:53:03 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery 
Pack?


The people I know with Leafs have similar experience as Ed, greater 
range if
they drive around town at lower speeds than if they drive on the 
highway at

higher speeds.  My experience with my conversion is the same.  I
consistently use about 240 Wh/mile at 60 mph and about 180 Wh/mile at 
35
mph, both on approximately level terrain, confirmed by data logging 
battery

current and voltage, as well as just checking energy use after a trip.

I generally get around 10% of energy used on a trip returned by regen.
Usually get about 50 -55% of kinetic energy back into the batteries 
during

braking, and about the same percentage of vehicle potential energy back
going down hill.  You have to remember that the some of the KE and PE 
is
used to do work against rolling resistance and drag forces when 
coasting
downhill and braking with regen.  I posted quite a bit of data on this 
here:


http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=366384=20

Maybe Peri drives on more hills in city driving than on the highway?

As far as the main topic, I would prefer a larger pack, one that gives 
150
mile range at 60 mph on level ground at 75F ambient, to my current 65 
mile

range at those conditions.  I have been driving a small car for several
years (Suzuki Swift) in an area where at least 40% of cars are large 
pickup
trucks (quite a few dual wheel) and large SUVs like Escalade and 
Excursion.
Doesn't bother me.  I think a small light car with a tough, strong 
shell
could be quite safe - bounce off a big truck intact, like an electron 
off an
argon atom. :^)  'Course being smashed between two large vehicles would 
be a

different story.

Ian Wright (original designer of the Tesla drive train) and founder of
Wrightspeed, said he didn't think Musk would sell any electric cars 
because
they were too expensive.  That's why he left and designed a system for 
heavy
commercial vehicles where there is much greater fuel cost savings.  
High

end, high quality, sexy cars was likely the only way for Musk to be
successful, and likely something Wright didn't foresee, or doubted they
could pull off - pretty unusual for a startup to make such a highly
acclaimed car right out of the chute.



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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-30 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Suburban streets are completely different.  I believe you that you get 
3.9 in that environment.  I get that, too, when driving outside the 
urban core.  But try driving Mission street or anywhere around downtown 
SF and see what you get.


That said, if there was any trade-off in the design to accommodate 
suburban driving over urban driving, Nissan probably made the right 
choice.  In suburban driving, you need more range.  It is practically 
impossible for me to do even 50 miles of urban driving.  Ha ha, 20 is 
pretty extreme.


By the way, most of my trips that are under 10 miles each way are by 
bicycle.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Ed Blackmond via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 30-Sep-15 5:11:29 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery 
Pack?




 On Sep 28, 2015, at 1:39 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:


 For example, my Leaf gets about 1.5 - 2.5 miles per kWh (depending on 
accessories and temperature) on city streets where I live.  But if I 
go 60mph on the freeway, I can sometimes get 4 miles per kWh.


I don’t have any hard data to back this up, but my experience with my 
2011 Leaf seems to be exactly the opposite.  Since I got the car 50 
months and 43,000 miles ago, I have been averaging 3.9 miles/KWH 
according to the number presented on the display.  I definitely get 
considerably better range on city/suburban streets than I do on the 
Freeway.  If I keep my top speed below 50MPH and never allow more than 
5 power dots displayed (one is always displayed), I can get about 75 
miles on a single charge (I got 81 once).  If I put about 40 miles on 
the Freeway at 65MPH with the rest on city/suburban streets, my range 
goes down to about 60 miles.  Using the heater in the winter (if you 
can call it that here in Silicon Valley) and it drops by another 10 
miles.  How people claim they can get 84 miles or better driving 
normally is beyond me.


Even though I’m down to 9 of 12 capacity bars, I have yet to notice any 
drop in range or the length of time it takes to charge from the very 
low battery warning to 100%.  The maximum charge time has never been 
longer than 5 hours.  With a 3.3KW charger I claim my supposedly 24KWH 
pack never had a usable capacity of more than 16.5KWH and still has 
that capacity.


Ed


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-29 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
On 28 Sep 2015 at 21:30, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

> Our budget ev's fail because they are too heavy.

I wasn't going to write anthing more about this subject, but I have to 
respond to this.  

YOU may consider YOUR budget EVs to be failures, and that's entirely your 
right.  Maybe they don't meet your needs.  I have no idea.

But I sure hope you're using the "royal our" there, because you don't get to 
make that judgement about other people's EVs.  Thousands of people all over 
the world have built short- to medium-range conversion and original EVs that 
suit their needs just fine, thank you very much, regardless of what you 
think of them.  

I'll just add that some folks on this discussion list might indeed buy 
hyperefficient EVs.  Maybe I would.  I initially thought the Aptera was a 
really interesting idea.  However, we're talking a percentage of about 600 
people, which is not exactly survival territory for most automakers.

Hyperefficient and/or onboard PV EVs are a tiny niche of an already small 
niche.  And EVs are still a niche product.  We think that Nissan selling 
30,200 Leaves last year was a huge success, and it was, but in the same year 
Chevrolet sold 34,839 Corvettes, and even GM will tell you that the 'Vette 
is a niche vehicle.  

So if you want something like Stella, you're probably going to have to build 
it yourself.  If you don't want to duplicate Stella, maybe you could find a 
copy of the plans for Bob McKee's Sundancer and update the design.  It 
managed between 95 and 135 Wh/mi (depending on speed) in 1973.  That was 
with lead batteries, a DC motor, and a belt drive.  Just imagine what it 
could do with 2015 engineering!  Curiously, its dimensions were quite close 
to Stella's (124" long, 40" high, 62" wide).  And, IMO, it was a much more 
handsome car than Stella.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-29 Thread Mark Abramowitz via EV
I think that's part of the reason.

EV or not, you don't see a lot of demand for tiny, light cars either. Part of 
the reason is safety, or perceived safety, part may be visibility, part of it 
is comfort, and frankly, a lot of people just can't get into very small cars.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 29, 2015, at 4:09 AM, paul dove via EV  wrote:
> 
> Easy,
> The only people buying EVs now are early adopters. It's new and most people 
> are afraid of them. 
> 
> People who already had a lead EV, people who only buy the latest tech, and 
> green people, those are the customer base.
> Elon Musk said that he would go to high society dinners and functions and see 
> a Prius parked next to Mazarattis, Mercedes, and all sorts of other expensive 
> car. He said it is a shame that a green person with moneys only choice is a 
> Prius.
> So, he decided to make an electric car for them. Only he wanted the best EV 
> and the best car ever. So naturally it sold. He had a target market and 
> filled a void. He also got the lastest tech people as well.
> The rest of the auto makers are making EVs because the government makes them 
> so naturally they inferior.
> As far a a light efficient car, there is no market. Small cars have never 
> sold well unless they were cool like the Mini.
> Paul
>  From: rayfellow via EV 
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2015 11:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?
> 
> In 2012 I was helping Oliver Kuttner promote his VLC or Very Light Car. It
> was very aerodynamic too (0.16 drag). His team won the X prize in 2008 -
> getting 108 or so MPG with fuel. The car he had in California was electric.
> It had a 10KWh battery and would go 100 miles between charges - It weighed
> under 1,000 pounds. I rode in the car some 50 miles or so, and was impressed
> with the ride, comfort etc. It carried 4 passengers. 
> 
> About this time Tesla came out with their car - Big battery and heavy. I
> thought that the VLC would be as popular as the Tesla.. Boy was I wrong! No
> one seemed impressed that the VLC would go a mile on 100wh vs the 300wh for
> the Tesla.
> 
> I thought that both would be well recieved. Alas the VLC still sits waiting
> for traction. No one seems interested in it. I wondered why? The only answer
> I can come up with is the cost of electricity is relitively cheap compared
> to liquid fuel. The difference in per mile costs for an efficient EV vs a
> heavy user is still not all that much.
> 
> I have pondered this. Maybe there are other reasons too - but seriously,
> none of the current EV's comes close to Aptera or VLC in efficency.. and yet
> no one wants them.
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-The-Big-EV-Debate-Go-for-Small-or-Big-Battery-Pack-tp4677803p4677812.html
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> Nabble.com.
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-29 Thread paul dove via EV
Easy,
The only people buying EVs now are early adopters. It's new and most people are 
afraid of them. 

People who already had a lead EV, people who only buy the latest tech, and 
green people, those are the customer base.
Elon Musk said that he would go to high society dinners and functions and see a 
Prius parked next to Mazarattis, Mercedes, and all sorts of other expensive 
car. He said it is a shame that a green person with moneys only choice is a 
Prius.
So, he decided to make an electric car for them. Only he wanted the best EV and 
the best car ever. So naturally it sold. He had a target market and filled a 
void. He also got the lastest tech people as well.
The rest of the auto makers are making EVs because the government makes them so 
naturally they inferior.
As far a a light efficient car, there is no market. Small cars have never 
sold well unless they were cool like the Mini.
Paul
  From: rayfellow via EV 
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
 Sent: Monday, September 28, 2015 11:12 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?
   
In 2012 I was helping Oliver Kuttner promote his VLC or Very Light Car. It
was very aerodynamic too (0.16 drag). His team won the X prize in 2008 -
getting 108 or so MPG with fuel. The car he had in California was electric.
It had a 10KWh battery and would go 100 miles between charges - It weighed
under 1,000 pounds. I rode in the car some 50 miles or so, and was impressed
with the ride, comfort etc. It carried 4 passengers. 

About this time Tesla came out with their car - Big battery and heavy. I
thought that the VLC would be as popular as the Tesla.. Boy was I wrong! No
one seemed impressed that the VLC would go a mile on 100wh vs the 300wh for
the Tesla.

I thought that both would be well recieved. Alas the VLC still sits waiting
for traction. No one seems interested in it. I wondered why? The only answer
I can come up with is the cost of electricity is relitively cheap compared
to liquid fuel. The difference in per mile costs for an efficient EV vs a
heavy user is still not all that much.

I have pondered this. Maybe there are other reasons too - but seriously,
none of the current EV's comes close to Aptera or VLC in efficency.. and yet
no one wants them.

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-29 Thread Lawrence Rhodes via EV
"The car he had in California was electric.
It had a 10KWh battery and would go 100 miles between charges - It weighed
under 1,000 pounds. I rode in the car some 50 miles or so, and was impressed
with the ride, comfort etc. It carried 4 passengers. "
Maybe it's the tires but the VLC gets nowhere near the efficiency of the 4 
passenger solar vehicles competing in the World Solar Challenge.  The VLC may 
get 100 miles on 10kw of batteries but Stella gets 375 miles on 16kw.  I think 
the difference is the motor and the tires as the CD is the same.  Lawrence 
Rhodes

  
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-29 Thread Sean Korb via EV
I'm trying to imagine the survivability rate of an F-350 Dually in a head
on collision with a semi.  A lot of selling a vehicle to customers is
perception, not what they might experience in the real world.

Most of what is needed is the perception of fun, and while other car buyers
have different priorities, this is the one that will win out, heavy, light,
armored or exposed.  If it seems not-fun; it won't sell.

Fortunately most EV sales are targeted well at this market :)

On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 12:09 PM, Jukka Järvinen  wrote:

> I think there is an opening for this niche light vehicle market. It just
> has to be taken with extreme measures.
>
> If one could build that economic bullet-shaped
> Kevlar-Carbonfibre-Ceramic-nano-nano-nanotube car which would prevail on
> head-on collision with semi-truck... If it's light and beats the starts off
> from Model S crash test results. Then you get noticed and sales would be
> good.
>
> But as long as the tiny cars are associated to the furry-mobile on the Dumb
> and dumber movie  No sale.
>
> -Jukka
> p.s.- don't shoot the messenger...
>
> http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about
>
> 2015-09-29 14:56 GMT+03:00 Mark Abramowitz via EV :
>
> > I think that's part of the reason.
> >
> > EV or not, you don't see a lot of demand for tiny, light cars either.
> Part
> > of the reason is safety, or perceived safety, part may be visibility,
> part
> > of it is comfort, and frankly, a lot of people just can't get into very
> > small cars.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Sep 29, 2015, at 4:09 AM, paul dove via EV 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Easy,
> > > The only people buying EVs now are early adopters. It's new and most
> > people are afraid of them.
> > >
> > > People who already had a lead EV, people who only buy the latest tech,
> > and green people, those are the customer base.
> > > Elon Musk said that he would go to high society dinners and functions
> > and see a Prius parked next to Mazarattis, Mercedes, and all sorts of
> other
> > expensive car. He said it is a shame that a green person with moneys only
> > choice is a Prius.
> > > So, he decided to make an electric car for them. Only he wanted the
> best
> > EV and the best car ever. So naturally it sold. He had a target market
> and
> > filled a void. He also got the lastest tech people as well.
> > > The rest of the auto makers are making EVs because the government makes
> > them so naturally they inferior.
> > > As far a a light efficient car, there is no market. Small cars have
> > never sold well unless they were cool like the Mini.
> > > Paul
> > >  From: rayfellow via EV 
> > > To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> > > Sent: Monday, September 28, 2015 11:12 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big
> Battery
> > Pack?
> > >
> > > In 2012 I was helping Oliver Kuttner promote his VLC or Very Light Car.
> > It
> > > was very aerodynamic too (0.16 drag). His team won the X prize in 2008
> -
> > > getting 108 or so MPG with fuel. The car he had in California was
> > electric.
> > > It had a 10KWh battery and would go 100 miles between charges - It
> > weighed
> > > under 1,000 pounds. I rode in the car some 50 miles or so, and was
> > impressed
> > > with the ride, comfort etc. It carried 4 passengers.
> > >
> > > About this time Tesla came out with their car - Big battery and heavy.
> I
> > > thought that the VLC would be as popular as the Tesla.. Boy was I
> wrong!
> > No
> > > one seemed impressed that the VLC would go a mile on 100wh vs the 300wh
> > for
> > > the Tesla.
> > >
> > > I thought that both would be well recieved. Alas the VLC still sits
> > waiting
> > > for traction. No one seems interested in it. I wondered why? The only
> > answer
> > > I can come up with is the cost of electricity is relitively cheap
> > compared
> > > to liquid fuel. The difference in per mile costs for an efficient EV
> vs a
> > > heavy user is still not all that much.
> > >
> > > I have pondered this. Maybe there are other reasons too - but
> seriously,
> > > none of the current EV's comes close to Aptera or VLC in efficency..
> and
> > yet
> > > no one wants them.
> > >
> > > --
> > > View this message in context:
> >
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-The-Big-EV-Debate-Go-for-Small-or-Big-Battery-Pack-tp4677803p4677812.html
> > > Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> > Nabble.com.
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > > Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> > > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -- next part --
> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > URL: <
> >
> 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-29 Thread Jukka Järvinen via EV
I think there is an opening for this niche light vehicle market. It just
has to be taken with extreme measures.

If one could build that economic bullet-shaped
Kevlar-Carbonfibre-Ceramic-nano-nano-nanotube car which would prevail on
head-on collision with semi-truck... If it's light and beats the starts off
from Model S crash test results. Then you get noticed and sales would be
good.

But as long as the tiny cars are associated to the furry-mobile on the Dumb
and dumber movie  No sale.

-Jukka
p.s.- don't shoot the messenger...

http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about

2015-09-29 14:56 GMT+03:00 Mark Abramowitz via EV :

> I think that's part of the reason.
>
> EV or not, you don't see a lot of demand for tiny, light cars either. Part
> of the reason is safety, or perceived safety, part may be visibility, part
> of it is comfort, and frankly, a lot of people just can't get into very
> small cars.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Sep 29, 2015, at 4:09 AM, paul dove via EV  wrote:
> >
> > Easy,
> > The only people buying EVs now are early adopters. It's new and most
> people are afraid of them.
> >
> > People who already had a lead EV, people who only buy the latest tech,
> and green people, those are the customer base.
> > Elon Musk said that he would go to high society dinners and functions
> and see a Prius parked next to Mazarattis, Mercedes, and all sorts of other
> expensive car. He said it is a shame that a green person with moneys only
> choice is a Prius.
> > So, he decided to make an electric car for them. Only he wanted the best
> EV and the best car ever. So naturally it sold. He had a target market and
> filled a void. He also got the lastest tech people as well.
> > The rest of the auto makers are making EVs because the government makes
> them so naturally they inferior.
> > As far a a light efficient car, there is no market. Small cars have
> never sold well unless they were cool like the Mini.
> > Paul
> >  From: rayfellow via EV 
> > To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> > Sent: Monday, September 28, 2015 11:12 PM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery
> Pack?
> >
> > In 2012 I was helping Oliver Kuttner promote his VLC or Very Light Car.
> It
> > was very aerodynamic too (0.16 drag). His team won the X prize in 2008 -
> > getting 108 or so MPG with fuel. The car he had in California was
> electric.
> > It had a 10KWh battery and would go 100 miles between charges - It
> weighed
> > under 1,000 pounds. I rode in the car some 50 miles or so, and was
> impressed
> > with the ride, comfort etc. It carried 4 passengers.
> >
> > About this time Tesla came out with their car - Big battery and heavy. I
> > thought that the VLC would be as popular as the Tesla.. Boy was I wrong!
> No
> > one seemed impressed that the VLC would go a mile on 100wh vs the 300wh
> for
> > the Tesla.
> >
> > I thought that both would be well recieved. Alas the VLC still sits
> waiting
> > for traction. No one seems interested in it. I wondered why? The only
> answer
> > I can come up with is the cost of electricity is relitively cheap
> compared
> > to liquid fuel. The difference in per mile costs for an efficient EV vs a
> > heavy user is still not all that much.
> >
> > I have pondered this. Maybe there are other reasons too - but seriously,
> > none of the current EV's comes close to Aptera or VLC in efficency.. and
> yet
> > no one wants them.
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-The-Big-EV-Debate-Go-for-Small-or-Big-Battery-Pack-tp4677803p4677812.html
> > Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> >
> >
> > ___
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -- next part --
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: <
> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150929/ba73cc88/attachment.htm
> >
> > ___
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> > Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-29 Thread rayfellow via EV
I kept up with Oliver Kuttner after he pitched his VLC here in California.
The cars efficency and cost inputs were much lower than conventional cars.
He was hoping for a third world market. Dang, the VLC weighed 1,000 pounds
and would carry just about its weight in passengers and baggage. 

A couple of the comments were right on in that it was a one-of-a kind car.
He didn't want to stress it with rapid acceleration or very high speeds. The
VLC was NOT finished ie. No air con, radio, cup holders, sound proofing and
an unfinished interior. Mr. Kuttner was looking for an auto company to take
the VLC to market. Obviously Tesla had that all that covered.

A lot of his presentation was stressing the VLC's safety - having outboard
wheels and crumple zones around the car... but it was light and low. It
actually was fairly easy to get in and out of the car. We had guys at 6'3"
trying it out.  Still the perception of small and light made it a hard sell.

A tribute to Tesla's market strategy is, the cost of batteries is relitively
high now. If you're going to put them in a car, make it an expensive one ie.
Tesla Model S or X. As the battery costs come down,  then the Tesla Model 3. 

I think the VLC was ahead of its time. Small, light, low cost vehicles are
all over the Philippines (where I spend ½ my time). It's a third world kind
of thing.

--
View this message in context: 
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Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-29 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
On 29 Sep 2015 at 14:46, Ben Goren via EV wrote:

> Musk got it absolutely right. Build a great car that just happens to have an
> electric drivetrain. People will buy it because it's a great car, and the
> premium price for the batteries and what-not doesn't even register for those
> who'd buy it. 

I think this is spot on.  My evidence is anecdotal, but I've seen interest 
in the Model S from people for whom EVs had never previously registered. 

When the S came out, one self-identified "car guy" I worked with switched 
his computer screen saver from some other expensive sports car I didn't 
recognize to the Tesla.  The fact that it was an EV meant nothing to him, he 
just thought it was an exciting, exotic, prestigious car.

This, BTW, is how we got antilock brakes and HID headlamps and, in earlier 
eras, power steering/brakes/windows/locks/etc, aircon, and automatic 
transmissions.  All these expensive changes were applied first to luxury 
cars, and later worked their way down to economy cars.  

Thirty years ago, no low-end car had those features; today few customers 
would buy a car in any price range without them.  It'll be interesting to 
see whether EPTO (electric power train option) works out the same way.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-29 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Sep 29, 2015, at 2:20 PM, rayfellow via EV  wrote:

> A tribute to Tesla's market strategy is, the cost of batteries is relitively
> high now. If you're going to put them in a car, make it an expensive one ie.
> Tesla Model S or X.

This is another very important point.

We're at the cusp of moving into a new era, but, up until now, any 
electric vehicle is going to be expensive, at least compared with something 
similar in all aspects other than the drivetrain.

Nobody whose budget is constrained is going to pay a premium for anything. 
Nobody whose budget _isn't_ constrained is going to be interested in something 
that cuts corners.

Musk got it absolutely right. Build a great car that just happens to have an 
electric drivetrain. People will buy it because it's a great car, and the 
premium price for the batteries and what-not doesn't even register for those 
who'd buy it. When the electric drivetrain is only somewhat more expensive, 
move it into the midrange market where people will consider stretching the 
budget by 10% - 20% if the upsell is compelling enough (as it certainly is for 
EVs). Only when there's no price difference do you put it into mass-market 
non-niche cheap vehicles...and, if the stars are suitably aligned, it won't be 
long before the electric has an even cheaper sticker price -- at which point it 
sweeps the market and nobody sells anything else.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-29 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
On 29 Sep 2015 at 15:32, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

> The VLC may get 100 miles on 10kw of batteries but Stella gets 375
> miles on 16kw. 

I read 268, not 375.  Still quite literally incredible.  

>  I think the difference is the motor and the tires as the CD is the
> same. 

Most likely it's just careful, spare-no-expense attention to detail - 
drivetrain, tires, wheels, alignment, brakes, lubricants, bearings, and so 
on.  That's how Solectria got their early Forces down from over 200 Wh/mi to 
150-160 Wh/mi. It's also how they managed to triple the price of the base 
ICE Geo Metro they were building on, which limited their sales to 
institutions with deep pockets.

Some of the difference could indeed be the motor and inverter/controller, 
but my impression is that the state of the art in electronically commutated 
motors is so high that once you're past the mass market rubbish the 
efficiency difference is seldom more than a percentage point or two.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-29 Thread Jukka Järvinen via EV
That is very true. It's 'cool' to drive EV's nowadays. They're fun and
quick but also safe. That fame is all thanks to Tesla. But for some reason
NEDRA did not achieve the same results while it was quick and fun. Too
nerdy to be associated to?

It seems to be a combination of many things while creating possibilities
for others being able to associate to something as fun as that. Did I make
any sense here? :) Be desirable, create need and provide something to
satisfy the need.

That F-350 is selling because it is or at least it was heavily supported
through taxation. It's considered to be safe as people on that ramming
device would walk away on most of the head on collisions. The thing is only
train or Leopard 2A4 prevails against semi truck. It would stun everyone if
Smart, Tango or Aptera did that.

Before this happens people desire safe 3 ton battery-on-wheels EV.

-Jukka


2015-09-29 19:23 GMT+03:00 Sean Korb via EV :

> I'm trying to imagine the survivability rate of an F-350 Dually in a head
> on collision with a semi.  A lot of selling a vehicle to customers is
> perception, not what they might experience in the real world.
>
> Most of what is needed is the perception of fun, and while other car buyers
> have different priorities, this is the one that will win out, heavy, light,
> armored or exposed.  If it seems not-fun; it won't sell.
>
> Fortunately most EV sales are targeted well at this market :)
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 12:09 PM, Jukka Järvinen 
> wrote:
>
> > I think there is an opening for this niche light vehicle market. It just
> > has to be taken with extreme measures.
> >
> > If one could build that economic bullet-shaped
> > Kevlar-Carbonfibre-Ceramic-nano-nano-nanotube car which would prevail on
> > head-on collision with semi-truck... If it's light and beats the starts
> off
> > from Model S crash test results. Then you get noticed and sales would be
> > good.
> >
> > But as long as the tiny cars are associated to the furry-mobile on the
> Dumb
> > and dumber movie  No sale.
> >
> > -Jukka
> > p.s.- don't shoot the messenger...
> >
> > http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about
> >
> > 2015-09-29 14:56 GMT+03:00 Mark Abramowitz via EV :
> >
> > > I think that's part of the reason.
> > >
> > > EV or not, you don't see a lot of demand for tiny, light cars either.
> > Part
> > > of the reason is safety, or perceived safety, part may be visibility,
> > part
> > > of it is comfort, and frankly, a lot of people just can't get into very
> > > small cars.
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > > On Sep 29, 2015, at 4:09 AM, paul dove via EV 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Easy,
> > > > The only people buying EVs now are early adopters. It's new and most
> > > people are afraid of them.
> > > >
> > > > People who already had a lead EV, people who only buy the latest
> tech,
> > > and green people, those are the customer base.
> > > > Elon Musk said that he would go to high society dinners and functions
> > > and see a Prius parked next to Mazarattis, Mercedes, and all sorts of
> > other
> > > expensive car. He said it is a shame that a green person with moneys
> only
> > > choice is a Prius.
> > > > So, he decided to make an electric car for them. Only he wanted the
> > best
> > > EV and the best car ever. So naturally it sold. He had a target market
> > and
> > > filled a void. He also got the lastest tech people as well.
> > > > The rest of the auto makers are making EVs because the government
> makes
> > > them so naturally they inferior.
> > > > As far a a light efficient car, there is no market. Small cars
> have
> > > never sold well unless they were cool like the Mini.
> > > > Paul
> > > >  From: rayfellow via EV 
> > > > To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> > > > Sent: Monday, September 28, 2015 11:12 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big
> > Battery
> > > Pack?
> > > >
> > > > In 2012 I was helping Oliver Kuttner promote his VLC or Very Light
> Car.
> > > It
> > > > was very aerodynamic too (0.16 drag). His team won the X prize in
> 2008
> > -
> > > > getting 108 or so MPG with fuel. The car he had in California was
> > > electric.
> > > > It had a 10KWh battery and would go 100 miles between charges - It
> > > weighed
> > > > under 1,000 pounds. I rode in the car some 50 miles or so, and was
> > > impressed
> > > > with the ride, comfort etc. It carried 4 passengers.
> > > >
> > > > About this time Tesla came out with their car - Big battery and
> heavy.
> > I
> > > > thought that the VLC would be as popular as the Tesla.. Boy was I
> > wrong!
> > > No
> > > > one seemed impressed that the VLC would go a mile on 100wh vs the
> 300wh
> > > for
> > > > the Tesla.
> > > >
> > > > I thought that both would be well recieved. Alas the VLC still sits
> > > waiting
> > > > for traction. No one seems interested in it. I wondered why? The only
> > > answer
> 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-28 Thread John Lussmyer via EV
On Mon Sep 28 21:12:35 PDT 2015 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>I thought that both would be well recieved. Alas the VLC still sits waiting
>for traction. No one seems interested in it. I wondered why? 

Does it have Stereo, Air Conditioning, windows that open, comfy seats, 
reasonable acceleration?
Without those at a bare minimum, won't sell.


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-28 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Sep 28, 2015, at 9:12 PM, rayfellow via EV  wrote:

> The difference in per mile costs for an efficient EV vs a
> heavy user is still not all that much.

This is a _very_ significant part of the equation.

My parents recently bought a Leaf. They love it, can't stop talking about it. 
And they literally can't tell the difference in their electric bills since they 
bought it.

In computer programming, it's known as premature optimization. If you have a 
choice of writing code that's quick and easy for the programmer to write and 
later update and maintain, but runs 1000 times slower than some sophisticated 
but difficult-to-understand alternative, which do you write? First, you write 
the quick-and-easy code. And you don't ever look at it again until and unless 
performance is a problem. Even if the easy way is 1000 times slower...if it 
takes ten seconds to execute rather than 0.01 seconds...well, if it's something 
that a single person executes once every four months, why spend hours of 
expensive programmer time saving a low-paid end user half a minute spread out 
over the course of a year? If it's part of the inner event loop of an 
high-performance video game, sure; you squeeze every last CPU cycle out of it. 
But, within rounding, that represents 0% of the computer code written on a 
daily basis.

So it is with electric vehicles. You've got one vehicle that gets ten miles per 
kWh, another that gets "only" three miles per kWh. The one is three times as 
expensive to charge up, so somebody's got to notice, right? Not when the 
difference in cost to drive 30 miles for your commute is 30 miles / (10 - 3 
miles / kWh) * 10¢ / kWh = 43¢ -- not even enough to buy a stamp these days!

Now, consider that a significant fraction of EV owners have rooftop solar, and 
thus their ongoing marginal cost per kWh is literally zero...and why should 
such people even pretend to care about efficiency?

On the list of things that matter in an electric vehicle, efficiency isn't even 
on the list. Indirectly, perhaps, in terms of range and the cost of the battery 
to support the desired range...but make an affordable EV with a 400 mile range 
and efficiency even as bad as an entire kWh / mile, and you won't be able to 
make them fast enough to meet demand.

Cheers,

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-28 Thread Mike Nickerson via EV
Personally, I think there are two factors.

First, performance.  A Tesla is a thrill at every stop light (especially if you 
are first in line).

Second, commercialization and availability.  Elon Musk had the drive and push 
to get his car built and available around the world.  Three years ago, Tesla 
was giving test drives and selling cars in Boise, ID.  People in Boise have 
never heard of a VLC; much less seen or driven one.

Add in the Tesla SuperCharger network, and it is game over.

I think people want to be environmentally conscious, but fun sells cars.  A fun 
car that is efficient enough will win against a more efficient car that isn't 
as fun.

Mike


On September 28, 2015 10:12:35 PM MDT, rayfellow via EV  
wrote:
>In 2012 I was helping Oliver Kuttner promote his VLC or Very Light Car.
>It
>was very aerodynamic too (0.16 drag). His team won the X prize in 2008
>-
>getting 108 or so MPG with fuel. The car he had in California was
>electric.
>It had a 10KWh battery and would go 100 miles between charges - It
>weighed
>under 1,000 pounds. I rode in the car some 50 miles or so, and was
>impressed
>with the ride, comfort etc. It carried 4 passengers. 
>
>About this time Tesla came out with their car - Big battery and heavy.
>I
>thought that the VLC would be as popular as the Tesla.. Boy was I
>wrong! No
>one seemed impressed that the VLC would go a mile on 100wh vs the 300wh
>for
>the Tesla.
>
>I thought that both would be well recieved. Alas the VLC still sits
>waiting
>for traction. No one seems interested in it. I wondered why? The only
>answer
>I can come up with is the cost of electricity is relitively cheap
>compared
>to liquid fuel. The difference in per mile costs for an efficient EV vs
>a
>heavy user is still not all that much.
>
>I have pondered this. Maybe there are other reasons too - but
>seriously,
>none of the current EV's comes close to Aptera or VLC in efficency..
>and yet
>no one wants them.
>
>--
>View this message in context:
>http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-The-Big-EV-Debate-Go-for-Small-or-Big-Battery-Pack-tp4677803p4677812.html
>Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-28 Thread rayfellow via EV
In 2012 I was helping Oliver Kuttner promote his VLC or Very Light Car. It
was very aerodynamic too (0.16 drag). His team won the X prize in 2008 -
getting 108 or so MPG with fuel. The car he had in California was electric.
It had a 10KWh battery and would go 100 miles between charges - It weighed
under 1,000 pounds. I rode in the car some 50 miles or so, and was impressed
with the ride, comfort etc. It carried 4 passengers. 

About this time Tesla came out with their car - Big battery and heavy. I
thought that the VLC would be as popular as the Tesla.. Boy was I wrong! No
one seemed impressed that the VLC would go a mile on 100wh vs the 300wh for
the Tesla.

I thought that both would be well recieved. Alas the VLC still sits waiting
for traction. No one seems interested in it. I wondered why? The only answer
I can come up with is the cost of electricity is relitively cheap compared
to liquid fuel. The difference in per mile costs for an efficient EV vs a
heavy user is still not all that much.

I have pondered this. Maybe there are other reasons too - but seriously,
none of the current EV's comes close to Aptera or VLC in efficency.. and yet
no one wants them.

--
View this message in context: 
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-The-Big-EV-Debate-Go-for-Small-or-Big-Battery-Pack-tp4677803p4677812.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-28 Thread Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Our budget ev's fail because they are too heavy.  If you converted or built a 
small light vehicle using a kit as are available you will find that you will 
gain in every area with a small pack and light vehicle.  Look at Stella Lux.  
Pushing a 700 mile range with 15kw pack.   Look at what the Tesla could do with 
a light vehicle.  Because of the 85 to 90kw pack the car must be much heavier 
to carry the weight.  Carrying more weight hurts range so it is a vicious cycle 
of over engineering.  375 miles on 16kw or 300 miles on 85kw.  I will take the 
lighter alternative...add solar and you never need plugging in as solar makes 
sense on light vehiclesnot heavy ones like we convert.  Lawrence Rhodes
  From: Jukka Järvinen 
 To: Peri Hartman ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
 
Cc: Lawrence Rhodes ; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" 
 
 Sent: Monday, September 28, 2015 2:00 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?
   
I think it's more important to think how the user benefits from the battery 
sizing. 
While it might sound irrational to have 150kWh onboard it would enable 
stressless driving with longer useful lifetime. The vehicle it self will have 
better resale value as it remains more usable even after 10 or 15 years. Also 
people need to charge their cars only as much as they use. It has nothing to do 
with the battery size. 
But... 1C charging with 20kWh pack is 333Wh/minute. 1C charging for 150kWh pack 
is 2.500Wh/minute. If it takes 250Wh/km (400Wh/mi) you either gain 
0,83mi/minute or 6,25mi/minute. A DC-dumping with 300kW will stress less the 
larger pack as it has more mass to absorb the losses and there's less 
temperature rise during use. Also the discharge side has to be considered. You 
might not need more than 20kW to move one econobox but see how Model S P85D 
puts the EV's on the map. Our budget conversions could not do that. We need to 
admit that. Sorry.
What makes all the difference for the business is how much does the battery 
cost. We will see less than $100/kWh before 2020. Or at least it is possible 
but if demand is high it sets the price level. On the other hand Tesla may 
provide Model 3 as a service and they will own the cars always. Then it does 
not matter how much the cells cost. You just pay that 10c/mi and nothing else. 
So it does not matter if it weights 2, 3 or 5 tons. Even less if the car drives 
itself.  :)
-Jukka 
http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about
2015-09-28 23:39 GMT+03:00 Peri Hartman via EV :

I think the key factor is the Cd of .16.   While I think lighter vehicles are 
better for many reasons, it doesn't seem to make that much difference in 
efficiency unless you are spending most of your time on slow speed city streets.

For example, my Leaf gets about 1.5 - 2.5 miles per kWh (depending on 
accessories and temperature) on city streets where I live.  But if I go 60mph 
on the freeway, I can sometimes get 4 miles per kWh.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" ; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" 

Sent: 28-Sep-15 1:31:45 PM
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?


The debate should be about  light or heavy vehicles and efficiency.  If you 
have an efficient vehicle that is light you might draw 55wh per mile.  The 
typical heavy conversion like the I3 , Leaf, Rav4, IMEV, or any other of the 
currently available EV's are just too heavy to give good range with a small 
pack.  They all draw 200 or more wh per mile.  The I3 is going in the right 
direction.  It has a relatively small pack and is more efficient than all the 
other competitors.    If however you have a light vehicle around a thousand 
pounds your range will be close to 350 miles with a 16kw battery pack.  The 
vehicle needs to have a CD of about .16.  With these specifications you don't 
have to have a big pack.  It will charge in 2.5 hours with a 6.6kw charger.  
Efficiency and charging time should be the goal.  Smaller the pack the quicker 
the charge.  Also the packs will last longer as they are not stressed as much 
by carrying large weights.  Engineering the right combination is what is 
needed.  Not 85kw packs in 5000 pound cars...however they are very comfortable 
and useful as is and better than the ICE alternative.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-28 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
On 28 Sep 2015 at 20:31, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

> The debate should be about  light or heavy vehicles and efficiency.  If you
> have an efficient vehicle that is light you might draw 55wh per mile.  The
> typical heavy conversion like the I3 , Leaf, Rav4, IMEV, or any other of the
> currently available EV's are just too heavy to give good range with a small
> pack.

I may have missed something here, but I don't see what debate you're talking 
about.  Nobody is going to argue that a light, efficient vehicle isn't a 
route to getting decent range out of a small, cheap battery.

The problem is selling the EV.  In the real world of real customers buying 
real cars in real first-world nations, there's a limit on lightening 
vehicles, at least if you're staying in the 4-wheel class.  You're 
constrained not just by customer expectations - safety, comfort, cupholders -
 but also by vehicle safety regulations.  You can evade them with a 3-
wheeler, but we've seen where that goes.

The market for ultralight (non-bike) EVs is small, though probably not 
nonexistent.  But because sales are and will be low, economy of scale is 
limited.  That in turn means minimally-equipped vehicles and/or high prices. 
Both of these further crimp the market size.  You're just not going to get 
very many people to give up their Corollas and RAV4s unless you match or 
exceed their current rides for comfort and safety.

I think the key to modest sales success with ultralight EVs is to follow the 
example set by Renault with the Twizy.  They emphasize its quirkiness. They 
get race car drivers to have fun with it and shoot video of them.  They're 
not really trying to sell it so much as practical transportation, but more 
as entertainment.  They seem to be having modest success with that.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-28 Thread Jukka Järvinen via EV
AH! But our conversions were always compromises as the new technology did
not fit nicely anywhere. Light vehicles are OK but majority of people do
not think that way. They require 'safe' cars and that's what sells. It
would be far more better if everyone worked from home and only walked
around the house. On the other hand Model S like heavy vehicles push the
agenda further. It opens a fast track for technology development as more
capital is needed for R and it is not justified until there is proven
demand for the technology. So I think it is a bit academic debate which
would be better as market environment pushes things to certain direction
anyway. Yes. Also I'm happy if more li-ion cells are sold and manufactured
as it's what pays my bills :D   But seriously. Light cars like Smart and
even lighter 3-wheelers are economic but they are actually just horrible to
drive. At least on our roads. Thou I would have loved to drive Aptera
because how beautiful it looked. I have no idea how it handled. To throw
something in on this debate I would like to encourage people to think a bit
further what it comes to batteries. We are going to see some pretty nice
things during next couple of years. -Jukka

http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about

2015-09-29 0:30 GMT+03:00 Lawrence Rhodes via EV :

> Our budget ev's fail because they are too heavy.  If you converted or
> built a small light vehicle using a kit as are available you will find that
> you will gain in every area with a small pack and light vehicle.  Look at
> Stella Lux.  Pushing a 700 mile range with 15kw pack.   Look at what the
> Tesla could do with a light vehicle.  Because of the 85 to 90kw pack the
> car must be much heavier to carry the weight.  Carrying more weight hurts
> range so it is a vicious cycle of over engineering.  375 miles on 16kw or
> 300 miles on 85kw.  I will take the lighter alternative...add solar and you
> never need plugging in as solar makes sense on light vehiclesnot heavy
> ones like we convert.  Lawrence Rhodes
>   From: Jukka Järvinen 
>  To: Peri Hartman ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Cc: Lawrence Rhodes ; "
> ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" 
>  Sent: Monday, September 28, 2015 2:00 PM
>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery
> Pack?
>
> I think it's more important to think how the user benefits from the
> battery sizing.
> While it might sound irrational to have 150kWh onboard it would enable
> stressless driving with longer useful lifetime. The vehicle it self will
> have better resale value as it remains more usable even after 10 or 15
> years. Also people need to charge their cars only as much as they use. It
> has nothing to do with the battery size.
> But... 1C charging with 20kWh pack is 333Wh/minute. 1C charging for 150kWh
> pack is 2.500Wh/minute. If it takes 250Wh/km (400Wh/mi) you either gain
> 0,83mi/minute or 6,25mi/minute. A DC-dumping with 300kW will stress less
> the larger pack as it has more mass to absorb the losses and there's less
> temperature rise during use. Also the discharge side has to be considered.
> You might not need more than 20kW to move one econobox but see how Model S
> P85D puts the EV's on the map. Our budget conversions could not do that. We
> need to admit that. Sorry.
> What makes all the difference for the business is how much does the
> battery cost. We will see less than $100/kWh before 2020. Or at least it is
> possible but if demand is high it sets the price level. On the other hand
> Tesla may provide Model 3 as a service and they will own the cars always.
> Then it does not matter how much the cells cost. You just pay that 10c/mi
> and nothing else. So it does not matter if it weights 2, 3 or 5 tons. Even
> less if the car drives itself.  :)
> -Jukka
> http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about
> 2015-09-28 23:39 GMT+03:00 Peri Hartman via EV :
>
> I think the key factor is the Cd of .16.   While I think lighter vehicles
> are better for many reasons, it doesn't seem to make that much difference
> in efficiency unless you are spending most of your time on slow speed city
> streets.
>
> For example, my Leaf gets about 1.5 - 2.5 miles per kWh (depending on
> accessories and temperature) on city streets where I live.  But if I go
> 60mph on the freeway, I can sometimes get 4 miles per kWh.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
> To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" ; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" <
> ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org>
> Sent: 28-Sep-15 1:31:45 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?
>
>
> The debate should be about  light or heavy vehicles and efficiency.  If
> you have an efficient vehicle that is light you might draw 55wh per mile.
> The typical heavy conversion like 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-28 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
I think the key factor is the Cd of .16.   While I think lighter 
vehicles are better for many reasons, it doesn't seem to make that much 
difference in efficiency unless you are spending most of your time on 
slow speed city streets.


For example, my Leaf gets about 1.5 - 2.5 miles per kWh (depending on 
accessories and temperature) on city streets where I live.  But if I go 
60mph on the freeway, I can sometimes get 4 miles per kWh.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" ; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" 


Sent: 28-Sep-15 1:31:45 PM
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery 
Pack?


The debate should be about  light or heavy vehicles and efficiency.  If 
you have an efficient vehicle that is light you might draw 55wh per 
mile.  The typical heavy conversion like the I3 , Leaf, Rav4, IMEV, or 
any other of the currently available EV's are just too heavy to give 
good range with a small pack.  They all draw 200 or more wh per mile.  
The I3 is going in the right direction.  It has a relatively small pack 
and is more efficient than all the other competitors.If however you 
have a light vehicle around a thousand pounds your range will be close 
to 350 miles with a 16kw battery pack.  The vehicle needs to have a CD 
of about .16.  With these specifications you don't have to have a big 
pack.  It will charge in 2.5 hours with a 6.6kw charger.  Efficiency 
and charging time should be the goal.  Smaller the pack the quicker the 
charge.  Also the packs will last longer as they are not stressed as 
much by carrying large weights.  Engineering the right combination is 
what is needed.  Not 85kw packs in 5000 pound cars...however they are 
very comfortable and useful as is and better than the ICE alternative.  
Lawrence Rhodes

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URL: 


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-28 Thread Jukka Järvinen via EV
I think it's more important to think how the user benefits from the battery
sizing.

While it might sound irrational to have 150kWh onboard it would enable
stressless driving with longer useful lifetime. The vehicle it self will
have better resale value as it remains more usable even after 10 or 15
years. Also people need to charge their cars only as much as they use. It
has nothing to do with the battery size.

But... 1C charging with 20kWh pack is 333Wh/minute. 1C charging for 150kWh
pack is 2.500Wh/minute. If it takes 250Wh/km (400Wh/mi) you either gain
0,83mi/minute or 6,25mi/minute. A DC-dumping with 300kW will stress less
the larger pack as it has more mass to absorb the losses and there's less
temperature rise during use. Also the discharge side has to be considered.
You might not need more than 20kW to move one econobox but see how Model S
P85D puts the EV's on the map. Our budget conversions could not do that. We
need to admit that. Sorry.

What makes all the difference for the business is how much does the battery
cost. We will see less than $100/kWh before 2020. Or at least it is
possible but if demand is high it sets the price level. On the other hand
Tesla may provide Model 3 as a service and they will own the cars always.
Then it does not matter how much the cells cost. You just pay that 10c/mi
and nothing else. So it does not matter if it weights 2, 3 or 5 tons. Even
less if the car drives itself.  :)

-Jukka

http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about

2015-09-28 23:39 GMT+03:00 Peri Hartman via EV :

> I think the key factor is the Cd of .16.   While I think lighter vehicles
> are better for many reasons, it doesn't seem to make that much difference
> in efficiency unless you are spending most of your time on slow speed city
> streets.
>
> For example, my Leaf gets about 1.5 - 2.5 miles per kWh (depending on
> accessories and temperature) on city streets where I live.  But if I go
> 60mph on the freeway, I can sometimes get 4 miles per kWh.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
> To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" ; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" <
> ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org>
> Sent: 28-Sep-15 1:31:45 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?
>
> The debate should be about  light or heavy vehicles and efficiency.  If
>> you have an efficient vehicle that is light you might draw 55wh per mile.
>> The typical heavy conversion like the I3 , Leaf, Rav4, IMEV, or any other
>> of the currently available EV's are just too heavy to give good range with
>> a small pack.  They all draw 200 or more wh per mile.  The I3 is going in
>> the right direction.  It has a relatively small pack and is more efficient
>> than all the other competitors.If however you have a light vehicle
>> around a thousand pounds your range will be close to 350 miles with a 16kw
>> battery pack.  The vehicle needs to have a CD of about .16.  With these
>> specifications you don't have to have a big pack.  It will charge in 2.5
>> hours with a 6.6kw charger.  Efficiency and charging time should be the
>> goal.  Smaller the pack the quicker the charge.  Also the packs will last
>> longer as they are not stressed as much by carrying large weights.
>> Engineering the right combination is what is needed.  Not 85kw packs in
>> 5000 pound cars...however they are very comfortable and useful as is and
>> better than the ICE alternative.  Lawrence Rhodes
>> -- next part --
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150928/dcb4a2f9/attachment.htm
>> >
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>> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-28 Thread Mike Nickerson via EV
I think it is key to remember, though, that a Cd of 0.16 is deep into concept 
car territory.  Most small cars are 0.28-0.32.  The Toyota Prius is 0.25.  The 
Tesla Model S is 0.24.  There isn't much under 0.24 that isn't concept or 
experimental (except the EV1 at 0.195).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_drag_coefficient

I'm surprised the Leaf doesn't do better in the city.  Does it brake 
aggressively enough with regeneration so you don't need the friction brakes 
much?  I have to drive the Tesla very aggressively to get less than 3 miles per 
kWh.  On a bad day, I get around 300 Wh per mile.  On a careful day, I can get 
around 230-250 Wh per mile.  However, due to aggressive regeneration, it gets 
almost everything back into the battery.  I hardly use the friction brakes.

Mike


On September 28, 2015 2:39:45 PM MDT, Peri Hartman via EV  
wrote:
>I think the key factor is the Cd of .16.   While I think lighter 
>vehicles are better for many reasons, it doesn't seem to make that much
>
>difference in efficiency unless you are spending most of your time on 
>slow speed city streets.
>
>For example, my Leaf gets about 1.5 - 2.5 miles per kWh (depending on 
>accessories and temperature) on city streets where I live.  But if I go
>
>60mph on the freeway, I can sometimes get 4 miles per kWh.
>
>Peri
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
>To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" ;
>"ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" 
>
>Sent: 28-Sep-15 1:31:45 PM
>Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery 
>Pack?
>
>>The debate should be about  light or heavy vehicles and efficiency. 
>If 
>>you have an efficient vehicle that is light you might draw 55wh per 
>>mile.  The typical heavy conversion like the I3 , Leaf, Rav4, IMEV, or
>
>>any other of the currently available EV's are just too heavy to give 
>>good range with a small pack.  They all draw 200 or more wh per mile. 
>
>>The I3 is going in the right direction.  It has a relatively small
>pack 
>>and is more efficient than all the other competitors.If however
>you 
>>have a light vehicle around a thousand pounds your range will be close
>
>>to 350 miles with a 16kw battery pack.  The vehicle needs to have a CD
>
>>of about .16.  With these specifications you don't have to have a big 
>>pack.  It will charge in 2.5 hours with a 6.6kw charger.  Efficiency 
>>and charging time should be the goal.  Smaller the pack the quicker
>the 
>>charge.  Also the packs will last longer as they are not stressed as 
>>much by carrying large weights.  Engineering the right combination is 
>>what is needed.  Not 85kw packs in 5000 pound cars...however they are 
>>very comfortable and useful as is and better than the ICE alternative.
> 
>>Lawrence Rhodes
>>-- next part --
>>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>URL: 
>>
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>>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA 
>>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-28 Thread Peter Eckhoff via EV
I don't think there is a need for a debate as much as figuring out the 
right questions to ask or want to ask.


What sort of range do you **need**?
What do you expect out of the vehicle (commuter vehicle, go'fer 
runs, pickup truck, taxi, etc.)?

What is the shortest time do you want to wait between full recharges?
How recyclable is this car? etc.

There is no sense in buying a Twofer if you expected to drive in a 3 to 
4 person carpool.


A used Leaf can about $10K and have an EPA range of 84 miles or a real 
winter range of 50 miles.


The Leaf pack of 24 kwhrs has a replacement cost of approximately $6K or 
$250/ kwhr.  The 2016 Leaf has an extended range model of 107 mile with 
with a 30 kwhr pack.  By the numbers, this should cost around an extra 
$1500 or $7500 for a replacement pack.  What are the trade offs?


for the 2018 and 2019 EV model years, several manufacturers say they 
will produce 200 mile and a 300 mile EVs.  At $250/ kwhr, the 
replacement packs would be around $15,000 and $22,500, respectively.  
Meaning you could save almost $8k if you only needed a 200 mile range 
instead of 300 mile range.


Tesla is talking an eventual cost of $150 / kwhr.  If Tesla meets their 
price point, Nissan and all the other EV manufacturers should also be in 
the same ball park.  Therefore, future Leafs could have a pack 
replacement cost of $3000 and $3750 for a 24 Kwhr and 30 Kwhr pack 
respectively.


A used Leaf can save you a lot of money and the saving can be put to 
adding PV, or borrowing or leasing a car to take a trip.  But is it the 
car you really need?  Should you buy now or wait until the range exceeds 
a goal such as the distance to Grandma's house, a favorite vacation 
spot, or commuting distance, etc.


Just some thoughts.


On 9/28/2015 5:52 PM, Jukka Järvinen via EV wrote:

AH! But our conversions were always compromises as the new technology did
not fit nicely anywhere. Light vehicles are OK but majority of people do
not think that way. They require 'safe' cars and that's what sells. It
would be far more better if everyone worked from home and only walked
around the house. On the other hand Model S like heavy vehicles push the
agenda further. It opens a fast track for technology development as more
capital is needed for R and it is not justified until there is proven
demand for the technology. So I think it is a bit academic debate which
would be better as market environment pushes things to certain direction
anyway. Yes. Also I'm happy if more li-ion cells are sold and manufactured
as it's what pays my bills :D   But seriously. Light cars like Smart and
even lighter 3-wheelers are economic but they are actually just horrible to
drive. At least on our roads. Thou I would have loved to drive Aptera
because how beautiful it looked. I have no idea how it handled. To throw
something in on this debate I would like to encourage people to think a bit
further what it comes to batteries. We are going to see some pretty nice
things during next couple of years. -Jukka

http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about

2015-09-29 0:30 GMT+03:00 Lawrence Rhodes via EV :


Our budget ev's fail because they are too heavy.  If you converted or
built a small light vehicle using a kit as are available you will find that
you will gain in every area with a small pack and light vehicle.  Look at
Stella Lux.  Pushing a 700 mile range with 15kw pack.   Look at what the
Tesla could do with a light vehicle.  Because of the 85 to 90kw pack the
car must be much heavier to carry the weight.  Carrying more weight hurts
range so it is a vicious cycle of over engineering.  375 miles on 16kw or
300 miles on 85kw.  I will take the lighter alternative...add solar and you
never need plugging in as solar makes sense on light vehiclesnot heavy
ones like we convert.  Lawrence Rhodes
   From: Jukka Järvinen 
  To: Peri Hartman ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List <
ev@lists.evdl.org>
Cc: Lawrence Rhodes ; "
ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" 
  Sent: Monday, September 28, 2015 2:00 PM
  Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery
Pack?

I think it's more important to think how the user benefits from the
battery sizing.
While it might sound irrational to have 150kWh onboard it would enable
stressless driving with longer useful lifetime. The vehicle it self will
have better resale value as it remains more usable even after 10 or 15
years. Also people need to charge their cars only as much as they use. It
has nothing to do with the battery size.
But... 1C charging with 20kWh pack is 333Wh/minute. 1C charging for 150kWh
pack is 2.500Wh/minute. If it takes 250Wh/km (400Wh/mi) you either gain
0,83mi/minute or 6,25mi/minute. A DC-dumping with 300kW will stress less
the larger pack as it has more mass to absorb the losses and there's less
temperature rise during use. Also the 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery Pack?

2015-09-28 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
The Leaf is a great car overall but for stop & go city driving, the 
regen often cuts out when braking and switches to mechanical - sometimes 
I can feel the switchover.  Even if there was no regen, an earlier 
thread on this forum illustrated that regen probably only adds about 5% 
to the miles / kWh.  Maybe 10% if you're really special :)


Regardless, it's very apparent that cruising at 40mph gives excellent 
miles / kWH -- somewhere around 5+ and even at 60mph up to 4.  I never 
get that on city blocks where I'm stopping and starting and going up and 
down steep hills.  I always drive in "B" (stronger regen) mode, not "D" 
mode.


By the way, minor point: it doesn't take a small vehicle to have a low 
Cd.  The Boeing 747 has a Cd = .031.  That's .031, not .31 :)


Peri


-- Original Message --
From: "Mike Nickerson" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 28-Sep-15 5:13:08 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery 
Pack?


I think it is key to remember, though, that a Cd of 0.16 is deep into 
concept car territory.  Most small cars are 0.28-0.32.  The Toyota 
Prius is 0.25.  The Tesla Model S is 0.24.  There isn't much under 0.24 
that isn't concept or experimental (except the EV1 at 0.195).


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_drag_coefficient

I'm surprised the Leaf doesn't do better in the city.  Does it brake 
aggressively enough with regeneration so you don't need the friction 
brakes much?  I have to drive the Tesla very aggressively to get less 
than 3 miles per kWh.  On a bad day, I get around 300 Wh per mile.  On 
a careful day, I can get around 230-250 Wh per mile.  However, due to 
aggressive regeneration, it gets almost everything back into the 
battery.  I hardly use the friction brakes.


Mike


On September 28, 2015 2:39:45 PM MDT, Peri Hartman via EV 
 wrote:

I think the key factor is the Cd of .16.   While I think lighter
vehicles are better for many reasons, it doesn't seem to make that 
much


difference in efficiency unless you are spending most of your time on
slow speed city streets.

For example, my Leaf gets about 1.5 - 2.5 miles per kWh (depending on
accessories and temperature) on city streets where I live.  But if I 
go


60mph on the freeway, I can sometimes get 4 miles per kWh.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" ;
"ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org"

Sent: 28-Sep-15 1:31:45 PM
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: The Big EV Debate> Go for Small or Big Battery
Pack?


The debate should be about  light or heavy vehicles and efficiency.

If

you have an efficient vehicle that is light you might draw 55wh per
mile.  The typical heavy conversion like the I3 , Leaf, Rav4, IMEV, 
or



any other of the currently available EV's are just too heavy to give
good range with a small pack.  They all draw 200 or more wh per mile.



The I3 is going in the right direction.  It has a relatively small

pack

and is more efficient than all the other competitors.If however

you
have a light vehicle around a thousand pounds your range will be 
close


to 350 miles with a 16kw battery pack.  The vehicle needs to have a 
CD



of about .16.  With these specifications you don't have to have a big
pack.  It will charge in 2.5 hours with a 6.6kw charger.  Efficiency
and charging time should be the goal.  Smaller the pack the quicker

the

charge.  Also the packs will last longer as they are not stressed as
much by carrying large weights.  Engineering the right combination is
what is needed.  Not 85kw packs in 5000 pound cars...however they are
very comfortable and useful as is and better than the ICE 
alternative.



Lawrence Rhodes
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