Re: [EVDL] FW: Vibration

2014-06-10 Thread Pestka, Dennis J via EV
Michael;

See Inserts.

Thanks;
Dennis

From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 3:27 PM
To: Pestka, Dennis J; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: Vibration

Dennis,

If it was any ICE car, where there is no DIY drive train stuff to distract one, 
I would ask them to check the tire balance once again.   It is entirely 
possible a balance weight popped off.  Or they forgot to balance one of them.  
I speak from experience here.  At one time I used to refuse balancing as snake 
oil, but I learned better along the way. I recently had new tires installed and 
balanced. I had this problem beforehand, so I don’t think it’s the tires.

65 Datsun means rear wheel drive, correct?  Yes  A drive shaft is usually 
making clunky sounds going into reverse and back to forward if it is sick.  As 
some suggested, I just had new u-joints installed, and the driveshaft balanced. 
CVs make clicking noises when turning if they are suspect. I do get a clunking 
noise sometimes when first starting. It could be an axle problem as others have 
stated.

Is there any indication at all that the the motor and drive train are the 
cause? Not sure I presume they were fine at one time? Not sure.  I only 
recently with my new Battery pack have taken it up to higher speeds. That’s 
when I really noticed the problem.   If it was once smooth that sort of 
precludes any issues with motor/tranny/drive shaft/differential misalignments. 
When I first got it on the road 4 years ago, I did notice some vibration when 
slowing from around 45 mph, but I figured it was due to a ~ 50 year old truck. 
Postponing them as a primary trouble shooting point.

On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV 
ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
The shocks are new, but I'll take a look.

I don't know if this means anything, but let me repeat one thing.
Under acceleration with torque on the motor and drivetrain the vibration is not 
too bad. Starts showing up ~ 55 mph.
When you let off the accelerator at that speed, the vibration gets very bad and 
gradually goes away as the vehicle slows down to ~ 40 mph.

Thanks;
Dennis



-Original Message-
From: Jay Summet [mailto:j...@summet.commailto:j...@summet.com]
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 1:02 PM
To: Pestka, Dennis J; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vibration

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

One thing to check is your non-drivetrain elements, although if you get the 
vibration without moving in neutral it's probably in the drivetrain.

The reason I mention it is that our car had developed a vibration at the 58-60 
MPH speed range, and it turned out to be rear shocks that needed replacing.

Jay


On 06/09/2014 07:49 AM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV wrote:
 Removed the drive shaft, had new u-joints installed, and had it
 balanced. No change.

 I’m guessing it’s either the angle on the motor/transmission in
 relation to the rear end, or I may have to pull the
 motor/flywheel/pressure plate/clutch assembly and have it balanced.
 When I sit in neutral and rev to ~ 3000rpm, I’m getting some
 vibration, although it doesn’t seem to be as bad as when I drive. Here
 again I feel it at ~ 50 mph and up, but it is really noticeable when I
 let off the accelerator at those speeds.

 Thanks; Dennis Elsberry, MO http://www.evalbum.com/1366
 http://evalbum.com/3715





 From: Daniel Busby 
 [mailto:busby.dan...@gmail.commailto:busby.dan...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, 
 May
 27, 2014 1:52 PM To: Pestka, Dennis J; Electric Vehicle Discussion
 List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vibration

 I'd try balancing your driveshaft.  It's relatively inexpensive once
 you get it out.  A local place in LA costs less than $70.

 My '64 Spitfire definitely has a wobbly shaft, but I haven't made the
 time to pull it out and get it balanced yet.  I stick to surface
 streets in the meantime.

 On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV
 ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org
  wrote: Didn't know if
 anyone had any clues to a problem I'm having.

 Since I have my new Lithium pack, I've getting my 65 Datsun out on the
 highway and up to ~ 60 mph. Never did much of that before. When
 accelerating, I don't experience it, but when I let off the
 accelerator, I'm getting a pretty good vibration. Step back on the
 accelerator, and it goes away. Don't seem to notice it at 45mph and
 lower, but when going 55 - 60 mph. I just put new tires on it, and
 have had the front end aligned.

 Any suggestions ?


 Thanks; Dennis Elsberry, MO http://www.evalbum.com/1366
 http://evalbum.com/3715


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Re: [EVDL] FW: Vibration

2014-06-10 Thread Pestka, Dennis J via EV
Joe;

Vehicle is fairly simple. Had a 1200cc engine, 4 speed transmission, 4.88 rear 
end. You can check it out on the EV Photo Album link below.
I assume the only way to tell if it’s the axles is to pull them ?
I know a little about working on cars, but haven’t really done much with 
differentials.
Can you give me any tips on tackling this.

Thanks;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
http://www.evalbum.com/1366




From: Joe [mailto:jya...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 4:34 PM
To: Pestka, Dennis J; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: Vibration

Dennis,

The vibration characteristic you describe is common with involute spline 
connections (I've seen this here at work).  When splines are loaded, the male 
spline is centered in the female spline by the tooth loads.

Run the same set unloaded and this natural centering ability goes away.  Now, 
one spline is offset relative to the other which creates a larger mass 
unbalance and higher vibration.

I'm unfamiliar with your vehicle so i have no idea if something like this is 
applicable.  Perhaps there is some type of joint that behaves similarly and 
maybe has worn a bit to allow extra motion when unloaded.

Joe

On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 12:55 PM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV 
ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
The shocks are new, but I'll take a look.

I don't know if this means anything, but let me repeat one thing.
Under acceleration with torque on the motor and drivetrain the vibration is not 
too bad. Starts showing up ~ 55 mph.
When you let off the accelerator at that speed, the vibration gets very bad and 
gradually goes away as the vehicle slows down to ~ 40 mph.

Thanks;
Dennis



-Original Message-
From: Jay Summet [mailto:j...@summet.commailto:j...@summet.com]
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 1:02 PM
To: Pestka, Dennis J; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vibration

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

One thing to check is your non-drivetrain elements, although if you get the 
vibration without moving in neutral it's probably in the drivetrain.

The reason I mention it is that our car had developed a vibration at the 58-60 
MPH speed range, and it turned out to be rear shocks that needed replacing.

Jay


On 06/09/2014 07:49 AM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV wrote:
 Removed the drive shaft, had new u-joints installed, and had it
 balanced. No change.

 I’m guessing it’s either the angle on the motor/transmission in
 relation to the rear end, or I may have to pull the
 motor/flywheel/pressure plate/clutch assembly and have it balanced.
 When I sit in neutral and rev to ~ 3000rpm, I’m getting some
 vibration, although it doesn’t seem to be as bad as when I drive. Here
 again I feel it at ~ 50 mph and up, but it is really noticeable when I
 let off the accelerator at those speeds.

 Thanks; Dennis Elsberry, MO http://www.evalbum.com/1366
 http://evalbum.com/3715





 From: Daniel Busby 
 [mailto:busby.dan...@gmail.commailto:busby.dan...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, 
 May
 27, 2014 1:52 PM To: Pestka, Dennis J; Electric Vehicle Discussion
 List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vibration

 I'd try balancing your driveshaft.  It's relatively inexpensive once
 you get it out.  A local place in LA costs less than $70.

 My '64 Spitfire definitely has a wobbly shaft, but I haven't made the
 time to pull it out and get it balanced yet.  I stick to surface
 streets in the meantime.

 On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV
 ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org
  wrote: Didn't know if
 anyone had any clues to a problem I'm having.

 Since I have my new Lithium pack, I've getting my 65 Datsun out on the
 highway and up to ~ 60 mph. Never did much of that before. When
 accelerating, I don't experience it, but when I let off the
 accelerator, I'm getting a pretty good vibration. Step back on the
 accelerator, and it goes away. Don't seem to notice it at 45mph and
 lower, but when going 55 - 60 mph. I just put new tires on it, and
 have had the front end aligned.

 Any suggestions ?


 Thanks; Dennis Elsberry, MO http://www.evalbum.com/1366
 http://evalbum.com/3715


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Re: [EVDL] FW: Vibration

2014-06-09 Thread Michael Ross via EV
Dennis,

If it was any ICE car, where there is no DIY drive train stuff to distract
one, I would ask them to check the tire balance once again.   It is
entirely possible a balance weight popped off.  Or they forgot to balance
one of them.  I speak from experience here.  At one time I used to refuse
balancing as snake oil, but I learned better along the way.

65 Datsun means rear wheel drive, correct?  A drive shaft is usually making
clunky sounds going into reverse and back to forward if it is sick.  CVs
make clicking noises when turning if they are suspect.

Is there any indication at all that the the motor and drive train are the
cause?  I presume they were fine at one time?  If it was once smooth that
sort of precludes any issues with motor/tranny/drive shaft/differential
misalignments.  Postponing them as a primary trouble shooting point.


On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 The shocks are new, but I'll take a look.

 I don't know if this means anything, but let me repeat one thing.
 Under acceleration with torque on the motor and drivetrain the vibration
 is not too bad. Starts showing up ~ 55 mph.
 When you let off the accelerator at that speed, the vibration gets very
 bad and gradually goes away as the vehicle slows down to ~ 40 mph.

 Thanks;
 Dennis



 -Original Message-
 From: Jay Summet [mailto:j...@summet.com]
 Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 1:02 PM
 To: Pestka, Dennis J; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vibration

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 One thing to check is your non-drivetrain elements, although if you get
 the vibration without moving in neutral it's probably in the drivetrain.

 The reason I mention it is that our car had developed a vibration at the
 58-60 MPH speed range, and it turned out to be rear shocks that needed
 replacing.

 Jay


 On 06/09/2014 07:49 AM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV wrote:
  Removed the drive shaft, had new u-joints installed, and had it
  balanced. No change.
 
  I’m guessing it’s either the angle on the motor/transmission in
  relation to the rear end, or I may have to pull the
  motor/flywheel/pressure plate/clutch assembly and have it balanced.
  When I sit in neutral and rev to ~ 3000rpm, I’m getting some
  vibration, although it doesn’t seem to be as bad as when I drive. Here
  again I feel it at ~ 50 mph and up, but it is really noticeable when I
  let off the accelerator at those speeds.
 
  Thanks; Dennis Elsberry, MO http://www.evalbum.com/1366
  http://evalbum.com/3715
 
 
 
 
 
  From: Daniel Busby [mailto:busby.dan...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, May
  27, 2014 1:52 PM To: Pestka, Dennis J; Electric Vehicle Discussion
  List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vibration
 
  I'd try balancing your driveshaft.  It's relatively inexpensive once
  you get it out.  A local place in LA costs less than $70.
 
  My '64 Spitfire definitely has a wobbly shaft, but I haven't made the
  time to pull it out and get it balanced yet.  I stick to surface
  streets in the meantime.
 
  On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV
  ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Didn't know if
  anyone had any clues to a problem I'm having.
 
  Since I have my new Lithium pack, I've getting my 65 Datsun out on the
  highway and up to ~ 60 mph. Never did much of that before. When
  accelerating, I don't experience it, but when I let off the
  accelerator, I'm getting a pretty good vibration. Step back on the
  accelerator, and it goes away. Don't seem to notice it at 45mph and
  lower, but when going 55 - 60 mph. I just put new tires on it, and
  have had the front end aligned.
 
  Any suggestions ?
 
 
  Thanks; Dennis Elsberry, MO http://www.evalbum.com/1366
  http://evalbum.com/3715
 
 
  ___ UNSUBSCRIBE:
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Put this question 

Re: [EVDL] FW: Vibration

2014-06-09 Thread Terry Forfa via EV

Dennis,

Maybe loose wheel bearings? Check the Chilton Vibration Checklist link 
below:


http://www.procarcare.com/includes/content/resourcecenter/encyclopedia/ch04/4fig15.html

Terry


--
From: Pestka, Dennis J via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 2:55 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] FW:  Vibration


The shocks are new, but I'll take a look.

I don't know if this means anything, but let me repeat one thing.
Under acceleration with torque on the motor and drivetrain the vibration 
is not too bad. Starts showing up ~ 55 mph.
When you let off the accelerator at that speed, the vibration gets very 
bad and gradually goes away as the vehicle slows down to ~ 40 mph.


Thanks;
Dennis



-Original Message-
From: Jay Summet [mailto:j...@summet.com]
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 1:02 PM
To: Pestka, Dennis J; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vibration

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

One thing to check is your non-drivetrain elements, although if you get 
the vibration without moving in neutral it's probably in the drivetrain.


The reason I mention it is that our car had developed a vibration at the 
58-60 MPH speed range, and it turned out to be rear shocks that needed 
replacing.


Jay


On 06/09/2014 07:49 AM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV wrote:

Removed the drive shaft, had new u-joints installed, and had it
balanced. No change.

I’m guessing it’s either the angle on the motor/transmission in
relation to the rear end, or I may have to pull the
motor/flywheel/pressure plate/clutch assembly and have it balanced.
When I sit in neutral and rev to ~ 3000rpm, I’m getting some
vibration, although it doesn’t seem to be as bad as when I drive. Here
again I feel it at ~ 50 mph and up, but it is really noticeable when I
let off the accelerator at those speeds.

Thanks; Dennis Elsberry, MO http://www.evalbum.com/1366
http://evalbum.com/3715





From: Daniel Busby [mailto:busby.dan...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, May
27, 2014 1:52 PM To: Pestka, Dennis J; Electric Vehicle Discussion
List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vibration

I'd try balancing your driveshaft.  It's relatively inexpensive once
you get it out.  A local place in LA costs less than $70.

My '64 Spitfire definitely has a wobbly shaft, but I haven't made the
time to pull it out and get it balanced yet.  I stick to surface
streets in the meantime.

On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV
ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Didn't know if
anyone had any clues to a problem I'm having.

Since I have my new Lithium pack, I've getting my 65 Datsun out on the
highway and up to ~ 60 mph. Never did much of that before. When
accelerating, I don't experience it, but when I let off the
accelerator, I'm getting a pretty good vibration. Step back on the
accelerator, and it goes away. Don't seem to notice it at 45mph and
lower, but when going 55 - 60 mph. I just put new tires on it, and
have had the front end aligned.

Any suggestions ?


Thanks; Dennis Elsberry, MO http://www.evalbum.com/1366
http://evalbum.com/3715


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Re: [EVDL] FW: Vibration

2014-06-09 Thread Mark Grasser via EV
Where is it from? 

First consider the speed of the vibration. If it is wheel or axle related it 
will be a slow vibration. If it is driveline it will be three to four times 
faster. In the realm of scary. To understand what slow is take the wheel 
weights off of one of your four wheels and go for a ride. You will experience 
what a wheel or axle vibration is like. Put the wheel weights back on where you 
found them, it will be fine, tire balancing isn't rocket science.

The fact that the amplitude of vibration changes from load to no load says 
something is loose. I would look at how the yoke is anchored to the motor 
shaft. This needs to be a snug or even press fit. If you can giggle the yoke on 
the shaft or if you can giggle any other part of the drive train this is a 
problem to look at. Everything in the drive line needs to be snug and have no 
movement about it in relationship the next part it is connected to.

Mark Grasser






-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Terry Forfa via EV
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 5:44 PM
To: Pestka, Dennis J; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: Vibration

Dennis,

Maybe loose wheel bearings? Check the Chilton Vibration Checklist link
below:

http://www.procarcare.com/includes/content/resourcecenter/encyclopedia/ch04/4fig15.html

Terry


--
From: Pestka, Dennis J via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 2:55 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] FW:  Vibration

 The shocks are new, but I'll take a look.

 I don't know if this means anything, but let me repeat one thing.
 Under acceleration with torque on the motor and drivetrain the 
 vibration is not too bad. Starts showing up ~ 55 mph.
 When you let off the accelerator at that speed, the vibration gets 
 very bad and gradually goes away as the vehicle slows down to ~ 40 mph.

 Thanks;
 Dennis



 -Original Message-
 From: Jay Summet [mailto:j...@summet.com]
 Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 1:02 PM
 To: Pestka, Dennis J; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vibration

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 One thing to check is your non-drivetrain elements, although if you 
 get the vibration without moving in neutral it's probably in the drivetrain.

 The reason I mention it is that our car had developed a vibration at 
 the
 58-60 MPH speed range, and it turned out to be rear shocks that needed 
 replacing.

 Jay


 On 06/09/2014 07:49 AM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV wrote:
 Removed the drive shaft, had new u-joints installed, and had it 
 balanced. No change.

 I’m guessing it’s either the angle on the motor/transmission in 
 relation to the rear end, or I may have to pull the 
 motor/flywheel/pressure plate/clutch assembly and have it balanced.
 When I sit in neutral and rev to ~ 3000rpm, I’m getting some 
 vibration, although it doesn’t seem to be as bad as when I drive. 
 Here again I feel it at ~ 50 mph and up, but it is really noticeable 
 when I let off the accelerator at those speeds.

 Thanks; Dennis Elsberry, MO http://www.evalbum.com/1366
 http://evalbum.com/3715





 From: Daniel Busby [mailto:busby.dan...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 
 27, 2014 1:52 PM To: Pestka, Dennis J; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
 List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vibration

 I'd try balancing your driveshaft.  It's relatively inexpensive once 
 you get it out.  A local place in LA costs less than $70.

 My '64 Spitfire definitely has a wobbly shaft, but I haven't made the 
 time to pull it out and get it balanced yet.  I stick to surface 
 streets in the meantime.

 On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV 
 ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Didn't know if 
 anyone had any clues to a problem I'm having.

 Since I have my new Lithium pack, I've getting my 65 Datsun out on 
 the highway and up to ~ 60 mph. Never did much of that before. When 
 accelerating, I don't experience it, but when I let off the 
 accelerator, I'm getting a pretty good vibration. Step back on the 
 accelerator, and it goes away. Don't seem to notice it at 45mph and 
 lower, but when going 55 - 60 mph. I just put new tires on it, and 
 have had the front end aligned.

 Any suggestions ?


 Thanks; Dennis Elsberry, MO http://www.evalbum.com/1366
 http://evalbum.com/3715


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Re: [EVDL] FW: Vibration

2014-06-09 Thread Cor van de Water via EV
The fact that it gets much worse when the drivetrain unloads,
gives an indication that it is not just an unbalance in a wheel or
motor,
because those hadly suffer from the loading/unloading of the torque in
the drivetrain from acceleration/deceleration.
More likely it is related to the driveshaft or adjacent parts of the
drivetrain, possibly halfshafts.
One of the ways to test where the vibration might be coming from:
- jack up the complete rear end (both wheels off the ground)
- run the motor through its normal speeds in Neutral. If there is
vibration then the flywheel balancing or transmission input is suspect.
- run the motor at speed with the transmission in Drive, notice the
speed of the vibration.
- change jack to only lift a single rear wheel and run the motor at
speed again - is there a difference in vibration? then it might be the
half shaft else it is likely the driveshaft
- change jack to only lift the other rear wheel and run the motor at
speed again - is there a difference in vibration? then it might be the
half shaft else it is likely the driveshaft
- you can check for wheel unbalance (rear wheel that is) by removing the
wheel at the latest tests to check if that makes the vibration go away.

BTW, some vehicles have a mid-driveshaft bearing that goes bad and
causes vibration. Check the group discussions of your particular ICE
vehicle to see if that is a common problem and how to diagnose  repair.

Success.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Michael Ross
via EV
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 1:27 PM
To: Pestka, Dennis J; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: Vibration

Dennis,

If it was any ICE car, where there is no DIY drive train stuff to
distract
one, I would ask them to check the tire balance once again.   It is
entirely possible a balance weight popped off.  Or they forgot to
balance
one of them.  I speak from experience here.  At one time I used to
refuse
balancing as snake oil, but I learned better along the way.

65 Datsun means rear wheel drive, correct?  A drive shaft is usually
making
clunky sounds going into reverse and back to forward if it is sick.  CVs
make clicking noises when turning if they are suspect.

Is there any indication at all that the the motor and drive train are
the
cause?  I presume they were fine at one time?  If it was once smooth
that
sort of precludes any issues with motor/tranny/drive shaft/differential
misalignments.  Postponing them as a primary trouble shooting point.


On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV
ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 The shocks are new, but I'll take a look.

 I don't know if this means anything, but let me repeat one thing.
 Under acceleration with torque on the motor and drivetrain the
vibration
 is not too bad. Starts showing up ~ 55 mph.
 When you let off the accelerator at that speed, the vibration gets
very
 bad and gradually goes away as the vehicle slows down to ~ 40 mph.

 Thanks;
 Dennis



 -Original Message-
 From: Jay Summet [mailto:j...@summet.com]
 Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 1:02 PM
 To: Pestka, Dennis J; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vibration

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 One thing to check is your non-drivetrain elements, although if you
get
 the vibration without moving in neutral it's probably in the
drivetrain.

 The reason I mention it is that our car had developed a vibration at
the
 58-60 MPH speed range, and it turned out to be rear shocks that needed
 replacing.

 Jay


 On 06/09/2014 07:49 AM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV wrote:
  Removed the drive shaft, had new u-joints installed, and had it
  balanced. No change.
 
  I'm guessing it's either the angle on the motor/transmission in
  relation to the rear end, or I may have to pull the
  motor/flywheel/pressure plate/clutch assembly and have it balanced.
  When I sit in neutral and rev to ~ 3000rpm, I'm getting some
  vibration, although it doesn't seem to be as bad as when I drive.
Here
  again I feel it at ~ 50 mph and up, but it is really noticeable when
I
  let off the accelerator at those speeds.
 
  Thanks; Dennis Elsberry, MO http://www.evalbum.com/1366
  http://evalbum.com/3715
 
 
 
 
 
  From: Daniel Busby [mailto:busby.dan...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday,
May
  27, 2014 1:52 PM To: Pestka, Dennis J; Electric Vehicle Discussion
  List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vibration
 
  I'd try balancing your driveshaft.  It's relatively inexpensive once
  you get it out.  A local place in LA costs less than $70.
 
  My '64 Spitfire definitely has a wobbly shaft, but I haven't made
the
  time to pull it out and get it balanced yet.  I stick to surface
  streets in the meantime.
 
  On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV
  ev

Re: [EVDL] FW: Vibration

2014-06-09 Thread Dennis Miles via EV
The clue to the solution is it also occurs with the vehicle stopped and
transmission in neutral as stated.  It has to be in the motor connector,
Pressure plate, clutch disk, or transmission input shaft and bearing. as
they are the only parts which are moving... i*f there are any components on
the front end of the motor, vacuum pump, alternator, AC compressor,  power
steering pump and tachometer sensor disk.*

*Dennis Lee Miles *

*Director   **E.V.T.I. Inc.*

*E-Mail:*  *evprofes...@evprofessor.com* evprofes...@evprofessor.com

   *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913*

Dade City, Florida 33523

 USA




On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 6:59 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 The fact that it gets much worse when the drivetrain unloads,
 gives an indication that it is not just an unbalance in a wheel or
 motor,
 because those hadly suffer from the loading/unloading of the torque in
 the drivetrain from acceleration/deceleration.
 More likely it is related to the driveshaft or adjacent parts of the
 drivetrain, possibly halfshafts.
 One of the ways to test where the vibration might be coming from:
 - jack up the complete rear end (both wheels off the ground)
 - run the motor through its normal speeds in Neutral. If there is
 vibration then the flywheel balancing or transmission input is suspect.
 - run the motor at speed with the transmission in Drive, notice the
 speed of the vibration.
 - change jack to only lift a single rear wheel and run the motor at
 speed again - is there a difference in vibration? then it might be the
 half shaft else it is likely the driveshaft
 - change jack to only lift the other rear wheel and run the motor at
 speed again - is there a difference in vibration? then it might be the
 half shaft else it is likely the driveshaft
 - you can check for wheel unbalance (rear wheel that is) by removing the
 wheel at the latest tests to check if that makes the vibration go away.

 BTW, some vehicles have a mid-driveshaft bearing that goes bad and
 causes vibration. Check the group discussions of your particular ICE
 vehicle to see if that is a common problem and how to diagnose  repair.

 Success.

 Cor van de Water
 Chief Scientist
 Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
 Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
 Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Michael Ross
 via EV
 Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 1:27 PM
 To: Pestka, Dennis J; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: Vibration

 Dennis,

 If it was any ICE car, where there is no DIY drive train stuff to
 distract
 one, I would ask them to check the tire balance once again.   It is
 entirely possible a balance weight popped off.  Or they forgot to
 balance
 one of them.  I speak from experience here.  At one time I used to
 refuse
 balancing as snake oil, but I learned better along the way.

 65 Datsun means rear wheel drive, correct?  A drive shaft is usually
 making
 clunky sounds going into reverse and back to forward if it is sick.  CVs
 make clicking noises when turning if they are suspect.

 Is there any indication at all that the the motor and drive train are
 the
 cause?  I presume they were fine at one time?  If it was once smooth
 that
 sort of precludes any issues with motor/tranny/drive shaft/differential
 misalignments.  Postponing them as a primary trouble shooting point.


 On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV
 ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:

  The shocks are new, but I'll take a look.
 
  I don't know if this means anything, but let me repeat one thing.
  Under acceleration with torque on the motor and drivetrain the
 vibration
  is not too bad. Starts showing up ~ 55 mph.
  When you let off the accelerator at that speed, the vibration gets
 very
  bad and gradually goes away as the vehicle slows down to ~ 40 mph.
 
  Thanks;
  Dennis
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Jay Summet [mailto:j...@summet.com]
  Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 1:02 PM
  To: Pestka, Dennis J; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vibration
 
  -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
  Hash: SHA1
 
  One thing to check is your non-drivetrain elements, although if you
 get
  the vibration without moving in neutral it's probably in the
 drivetrain.
 
  The reason I mention it is that our car had developed a vibration at
 the
  58-60 MPH speed range, and it turned out to be rear shocks that needed
  replacing.
 
  Jay
 
 
  On 06/09/2014 07:49 AM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV wrote:
   Removed the drive shaft, had new u-joints installed, and had it
   balanced. No change.
  
   I'm guessing it's either the angle on the motor/transmission in
   relation to the rear end, or I may have to pull the
   motor/flywheel/pressure plate/clutch assembly and have it balanced.
   When I sit in neutral and rev to ~ 3000rpm, I'm getting some
   vibration, although it doesn't seem to be as bad

Re: [EVDL] FW: Vibration

2014-06-09 Thread Joe via EV
Dennis,

The vibration characteristic you describe is common with involute spline
connections (I've seen this here at work).  When splines are loaded, the
male spline is centered in the female spline by the tooth loads.

Run the same set unloaded and this natural centering ability goes away.
 Now, one spline is offset relative to the other which creates a larger
mass unbalance and higher vibration.

I'm unfamiliar with your vehicle so i have no idea if something like this
is applicable.  Perhaps there is some type of joint that behaves similarly
and maybe has worn a bit to allow extra motion when unloaded.

Joe


On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 12:55 PM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 The shocks are new, but I'll take a look.

 I don't know if this means anything, but let me repeat one thing.
 Under acceleration with torque on the motor and drivetrain the vibration
 is not too bad. Starts showing up ~ 55 mph.
 When you let off the accelerator at that speed, the vibration gets very
 bad and gradually goes away as the vehicle slows down to ~ 40 mph.

 Thanks;
 Dennis



 -Original Message-
 From: Jay Summet [mailto:j...@summet.com]
 Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 1:02 PM
 To: Pestka, Dennis J; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vibration

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 One thing to check is your non-drivetrain elements, although if you get
 the vibration without moving in neutral it's probably in the drivetrain.

 The reason I mention it is that our car had developed a vibration at the
 58-60 MPH speed range, and it turned out to be rear shocks that needed
 replacing.

 Jay


 On 06/09/2014 07:49 AM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV wrote:
  Removed the drive shaft, had new u-joints installed, and had it
  balanced. No change.
 
  I’m guessing it’s either the angle on the motor/transmission in
  relation to the rear end, or I may have to pull the
  motor/flywheel/pressure plate/clutch assembly and have it balanced.
  When I sit in neutral and rev to ~ 3000rpm, I’m getting some
  vibration, although it doesn’t seem to be as bad as when I drive. Here
  again I feel it at ~ 50 mph and up, but it is really noticeable when I
  let off the accelerator at those speeds.
 
  Thanks; Dennis Elsberry, MO http://www.evalbum.com/1366
  http://evalbum.com/3715
 
 
 
 
 
  From: Daniel Busby [mailto:busby.dan...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, May
  27, 2014 1:52 PM To: Pestka, Dennis J; Electric Vehicle Discussion
  List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vibration
 
  I'd try balancing your driveshaft.  It's relatively inexpensive once
  you get it out.  A local place in LA costs less than $70.
 
  My '64 Spitfire definitely has a wobbly shaft, but I haven't made the
  time to pull it out and get it balanced yet.  I stick to surface
  streets in the meantime.
 
  On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV
  ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Didn't know if
  anyone had any clues to a problem I'm having.
 
  Since I have my new Lithium pack, I've getting my 65 Datsun out on the
  highway and up to ~ 60 mph. Never did much of that before. When
  accelerating, I don't experience it, but when I let off the
  accelerator, I'm getting a pretty good vibration. Step back on the
  accelerator, and it goes away. Don't seem to notice it at 45mph and
  lower, but when going 55 - 60 mph. I just put new tires on it, and
  have had the front end aligned.
 
  Any suggestions ?
 
 
  Thanks; Dennis Elsberry, MO http://www.evalbum.com/1366
  http://evalbum.com/3715
 
 
  ___ UNSUBSCRIBE:
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Re: [EVDL] FW: Vibration

2014-06-09 Thread Terry Forfa via EV
Original message rejected due to size - Resent with link to photo of bad 
axle splines.


http://s117.photobucket.com/user/jaynethecat/media/IMG_0540.jpg.html

See e-mail discussion below:
--
From: Terry Forfa tj...@hotmail.com
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 8:49 PM
To: Dennis Miles dmiles33...@gmail.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List ev@lists.evdl.org

Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: Vibration


Dennis,

I didn't originally see the part about the vibration happening when in
neutral and vehicle stopped...

Have you checked you motor mounts?
The motor running (I assume) could be transmitting motor vibrations 
through

to the chassis/frame from a metal to metal contact at a motor mount.

You also may notice it if you have a driveline judder back (and forth) to
the frame/motor ...from the loading/unloading of the torque in
the drivetrain from acceleration/deceleration. as Cor Van de Water 
mentions

below.

I had a driveline vibration with my EV Truck at one time that drove me 
crazy

for awhile with the vibration about 45mph. Turned out to be axle splines
worn on one of the rear end axle halves (photo attached).
I found this out after rotating wheels/tires with the truck jacked up and
decided to put it in gear with motor in idle to see if there was a bent 
rim

or possibly a bent axle and noticed a slight lope. I believe I also pushed
in and pulled out to see if there was any axle slop as well.
This of course was after putting hose clamps at various positions on the
drive shaft suspecting an unbalance as well as rotating the driveshaft 
yoke

around with no positive results.

Terry

--
From: Dennis Miles via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 6:46 PM
To: Cor van de Water cwa...@proxim.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion
List ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: Vibration


The clue to the solution is it also occurs with the vehicle stopped and
transmission in neutral as stated.  It has to be in the motor connector,
Pressure plate, clutch disk, or transmission input shaft and bearing. as
they are the only parts which are moving... i*f there are any components
on
the front end of the motor, vacuum pump, alternator, AC compressor, 
power

steering pump and tachometer sensor disk.*

*Dennis Lee Miles *

*Director   **E.V.T.I. Inc.*

*E-Mail:*  *evprofes...@evprofessor.com* evprofes...@evprofessor.com

  *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913*

Dade City, Florida 33523

USA




On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 6:59 PM, Cor van de Water via EV
ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:


The fact that it gets much worse when the drivetrain unloads,
gives an indication that it is not just an unbalance in a wheel or
motor,
because those hadly suffer from the loading/unloading of the torque in
the drivetrain from acceleration/deceleration.
More likely it is related to the driveshaft or adjacent parts of the
drivetrain, possibly halfshafts.
One of the ways to test where the vibration might be coming from:
- jack up the complete rear end (both wheels off the ground)
- run the motor through its normal speeds in Neutral. If there is
vibration then the flywheel balancing or transmission input is suspect.
- run the motor at speed with the transmission in Drive, notice the
speed of the vibration.
- change jack to only lift a single rear wheel and run the motor at
speed again - is there a difference in vibration? then it might be the
half shaft else it is likely the driveshaft
- change jack to only lift the other rear wheel and run the motor at
speed again - is there a difference in vibration? then it might be the
half shaft else it is likely the driveshaft
- you can check for wheel unbalance (rear wheel that is) by removing the
wheel at the latest tests to check if that makes the vibration go away.

BTW, some vehicles have a mid-driveshaft bearing that goes bad and
causes vibration. Check the group discussions of your particular ICE
vehicle to see if that is a common problem and how to diagnose  repair.

Success.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Michael Ross
via EV
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 1:27 PM
To: Pestka, Dennis J; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: Vibration

Dennis,

If it was any ICE car, where there is no DIY drive train stuff to
distract
one, I would ask them to check the tire balance once again.   It is
entirely possible a balance weight popped off.  Or they forgot to
balance
one of them.  I speak from experience here.  At one time I used to
refuse
balancing as snake oil, but I learned better along the way.

65 Datsun means rear wheel drive, correct?  A drive shaft is usually
making
clunky sounds going into reverse and back to forward if it is sick.  CVs
make clicking noises when

Re: [EVDL] FW: Vibration

2014-06-09 Thread Dennis Miles via EV
Joe, You said, The vibration characteristic you describe is common with
involute spline connections (I've seen this here at work).  When splines
are loaded, the male spline is centered in the female spline by the tooth
loads.
Run the same set unloaded and this natural centering ability goes away.
 Now, one spline is offset relative to the other which creates a larger
mass unbalance and higher vibration.

However the symptom you describe, is exacerbated upon an unloaded
condition, the loaded condition has the vibration and an  unloaded
condition minimises it... P.S. it is bot my problem as this discussion was
started by another member and I was only recalling his description of the
symptoms...And motor mounts if rubber can cause a shutter with AC drive
motors so use solid metal motor mounts and there is no vibration to be
absorbed by the mounts as with a combustion engine (ICE).

*Dennis Lee Miles *

*Director   **E.V.T.I. Inc.*

*E-Mail:*  *evprofes...@evprofessor.com* evprofes...@evprofessor.com

   *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913*

Dade City, Florida 33523

 USA




On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 5:33 PM, Joe via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Dennis,

 The vibration characteristic you describe is common with involute spline
 connections (I've seen this here at work).  When splines are loaded, the
 male spline is centered in the female spline by the tooth loads.

 Run the same set unloaded and this natural centering ability goes away.
  Now, one spline is offset relative to the other which creates a larger
 mass unbalance and higher vibration.

 I'm unfamiliar with your vehicle so i have no idea if something like this
 is applicable.  Perhaps there is some type of joint that behaves similarly
 and maybe has worn a bit to allow extra motion when unloaded.

 Joe


 On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 12:55 PM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV 
 ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:

  The shocks are new, but I'll take a look.
 
  I don't know if this means anything, but let me repeat one thing.
  Under acceleration with torque on the motor and drivetrain the vibration
  is not too bad. Starts showing up ~ 55 mph.
  When you let off the accelerator at that speed, the vibration gets very
  bad and gradually goes away as the vehicle slows down to ~ 40 mph.
 
  Thanks;
  Dennis
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Jay Summet [mailto:j...@summet.com]
  Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 1:02 PM
  To: Pestka, Dennis J; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vibration
 
  -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
  Hash: SHA1
 
  One thing to check is your non-drivetrain elements, although if you get
  the vibration without moving in neutral it's probably in the drivetrain.
 
  The reason I mention it is that our car had developed a vibration at the
  58-60 MPH speed range, and it turned out to be rear shocks that needed
  replacing.
 
  Jay
 
 
  On 06/09/2014 07:49 AM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV wrote:
   Removed the drive shaft, had new u-joints installed, and had it
   balanced. No change.
  
   I'm guessing it's either the angle on the motor/transmission in
   relation to the rear end, or I may have to pull the
   motor/flywheel/pressure plate/clutch assembly and have it balanced.
   When I sit in neutral and rev to ~ 3000rpm, I'm getting some
   vibration, although it doesn't seem to be as bad as when I drive. Here
   again I feel it at ~ 50 mph and up, but it is really noticeable when I
   let off the accelerator at those speeds.
  
   Thanks; Dennis Elsberry, MO http://www.evalbum.com/1366
   http://evalbum.com/3715
  
  
  
  
  
   From: Daniel Busby [mailto:busby.dan...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, May
   27, 2014 1:52 PM To: Pestka, Dennis J; Electric Vehicle Discussion
   List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vibration
  
   I'd try balancing your driveshaft.  It's relatively inexpensive once
   you get it out.  A local place in LA costs less than $70.
  
   My '64 Spitfire definitely has a wobbly shaft, but I haven't made the
   time to pull it out and get it balanced yet.  I stick to surface
   streets in the meantime.
  
   On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV
   ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Didn't know if
   anyone had any clues to a problem I'm having.
  
   Since I have my new Lithium pack, I've getting my 65 Datsun out on the
   highway and up to ~ 60 mph. Never did much of that before. When
   accelerating, I don't experience it, but when I let off the
   accelerator, I'm getting a pretty good vibration. Step back on the
   accelerator, and it goes away. Don't seem to notice it at 45mph and
   lower, but when going 55 - 60 mph. I just put new tires on it, and
   have had the front end aligned.
  
   Any suggestions ?
  
  
   Thanks; Dennis Elsberry, MO http://www.evalbum.com/1366
   http://evalbum.com/3715
  
  
   ___ UNSUBSCRIBE:
   http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
   http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing
   discussion, please 

Re: [EVDL] FW: Vibration

2014-06-09 Thread Joe via EV
Oh, sorry - I was addressing the Dennis of the original email where he
mentions that the vibration is worse when it is unloaded - See below.

On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 12:55 PM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 The shocks are new, but I'll take a look.

 I don't know if this means anything, but let me repeat one thing.
 Under acceleration with torque on the motor and drivetrain the vibration
 is not too bad. Starts showing up ~ 55 mph.
 When you let off the accelerator at that speed, the vibration gets very
 bad and gradually goes away as the vehicle slows down to ~ 40 mph.

 Thanks;
 Dennis


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