Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-31 Thread Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Don't forget.  What you get from the solar panels is gravy.  You battery pack 
is the reservoir.  Stella which is very efficient can go 40 mph on just the 
solar array under perfect conditions.  You take what you can get and if it's 
not enough just use J1772.  You will be driving under all conditions.  If I was 
really far thinking I'd throw up a sail, add pedals or find a way to tap 
geothermalthat said I am using the easiest way to collectbut a 
stationary wind energy collector has been done and in some areas much better 
than solar.  Lawrence Rhodes 
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-31 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Michael Ross via EV wrote:

​A sail is impractical, unmanageable, a very good way to tip over with out
a keel or daggerboard.

Pedaling adds almost nothing as most of us have a hard time producing
100Watts continuously.​

So called small wind energy is a money pit with no real payback

Geothermal is costly because you can't drill a deep hole just anywhere and
it costs a lot


All true. But, there are special cases. Just to play devil's advocate:

If you *are* getting power for a boat, then PV on the sail *does* make 
some sense. You have an enormous amount of area on those sails. I've 
seen small PV arrays on sailboats, but haven't seen a Yankee Clipper 
solar-powered racing sailboat yet. Possible?


Pedaling certainly works if the vehicle is very small. Joel Davidson 
commuted regularly on a 3-wheel recumbent trike with a 2' x 4' PV panel 
for a roof.


Small wind power works just fine for locations where you just don't have 
the room for PV, or have problems with things like snow. It can also be 
very cheap if done right (we have this modern propensity to vastly 
over-complicate everything). Remember that millions of of farmers 
successfully used windmills for decades before rural electrification.


Geothermal is easy if you happen to be next to a river or lake. Or, I 
went to school in Michigan's Keewanaw peninsula. There are hundreds of 
abandoned mines left over from the copper mining boom times. So there 
are buildings that get their heating and cooling simply by ducting in 
the air from some old mine shaft or air vent. It's 68 deg.F year round!


Also, on PV for vehicles. I've wondered why they haven't built a 
commuter train with PV panels on the roof. Rail has such low rolling 
resistance and such a huge amount of roof area that I'll bet you could 
make a considerable amount of your power with PV. If I wanted to set a 
land speed record for a purely solar powered vehicle, I'd build a solar 
car that ran on rails!


Don't take these as serious suggestions for widespread use. But they 
*are* examples of special case solutions that might be useful in certain 
circumstances. :-)

--
Sometimes when you innovate, you make mistakes. It is best to admit
them quickly and get on with improving your other innovations.
(Steve Jobs)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-31 Thread Peri Hartman via EV

Getting a bit OT, but I'll chime in on hydro.

As has been discussed before, one of the big issues with people putting 
in their own PV systems or wind is that they cause a less consistent 
demand from the grid.  We are seeing some power companies backlash by 
imposing a surcharge on those persons who take the bold steps of 
reducing their grid dependency.


One of the advantages of hydro power is that energy production can be 
ramped up and down relatively quickly compared to coal and nuclear.  
It's true that we've already tapped essentially all good hydro power 
locations.  But we've only put in a fraction of pumped storage.  Pumped 
storage can be built as lakes or done underground in, say, abandoned 
coal mines.  With pumped storage, existing power companies could meet 
their peak demands without building more expensive and polluting plants. 
 Is there a way we can encourage power companies to build pumped storage 
instead of more coal, nuke, or gas turbine plants?


One way is to show the power companies that its cheaper to build pumped 
storage than to build new traditional power plants.  According to EIA

  http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/capitalcost/pdf/updated_capcost.pdf
its is cheaper up front to build pumped storage than nuclear.  It is 
also cheaper than building a coal plant that provides carbon 
sequestering.


Thus, if the power companies were to continue to charge the same rate 
for electricity from pumped storage, they are making a better ROI than 
from building out new traditional power plants.  In effect, the people 
installing PV and other systems are doing the power companies a favor!


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
To: Michael Ross michael.e.r...@gmail.com; Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org

Sent: 31-Mar-15 11:37:52 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

On Mar 31, 2015, at 11:15 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
wrote:



 So called small wind energy is a money pit with no
 real payback - you need an exceptional location for a small turbine 
to be

 worth the effort.


Wind and hydro are just diluted forms of solar. On a planetary scale, 
they can't even begin to compete with solar photovoltaics.


However, there are certain microclimates where the landscape 
concentrates either wind or hydro in such a way that either can be a 
superlative local source of energy -- especially if the Sun tends to 
hide in those same climates.


Both are, ultimately, niche players...but they can be potentially 
indispensable in their relative niches.


Again however...the hydro niches are long since already developed, and 
the wind niches are mostly certain coastal regions and high mountain 
passes. Another interesting potential good use of wind is cropland...a 
single individual turbine won't necessarily have impressive generating 
capacities, but really big numbers of them can be put in in a way that 
doesn't interfere with growing crops and, in so doing, significantly 
increase the economic productivity of the land for the farmers.


Residential wind power makes sense for a few people, but only a very 
few people. (And it really does make all kinds of sense for certain 
people...just not for most.)


Rooftop solar, on the other hand, is economically viable basically 
everywhere, including the Pacific Northwest. It's more profitable in 
some places than others, but it's profitable everywhere (with a few 
footnotes, of course).


b
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-31 Thread Michael Ross via EV
Lee,

I would disagree that small wind power works well.  There are no reliable
efficient small wind turbines (which is why the companies that make them
keep going out of business). We had the best of the recent ones a 2.4kW
Skystream at my work, but Skystream is out of business - failed.

We also had a Mariah Power vertical that was a total piece of junk thought
they were trying hard.  At NREL they were testing them in real bill paying
wind and they fell apart and never passed the testing.

The bottom line is it costs too much to put one up, and because you can't
put up a tall tower most populated places you can't get any wind on them.
A tall tower costs.

Re geothermal, I was talking about making power not delivering space heat.



On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 3:52 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Michael Ross via EV wrote:

 ​A sail is impractical, unmanageable, a very good way to tip over with out
 a keel or daggerboard.

 Pedaling adds almost nothing as most of us have a hard time producing
 100Watts continuously.​

 So called small wind energy is a money pit with no real payback

 Geothermal is costly because you can't drill a deep hole just anywhere and
 it costs a lot


 All true. But, there are special cases. Just to play devil's advocate:

 If you *are* getting power for a boat, then PV on the sail *does* make
 some sense. You have an enormous amount of area on those sails. I've seen
 small PV arrays on sailboats, but haven't seen a Yankee Clipper
 solar-powered racing sailboat yet. Possible?

 Pedaling certainly works if the vehicle is very small. Joel Davidson
 commuted regularly on a 3-wheel recumbent trike with a 2' x 4' PV panel for
 a roof.

 Small wind power works just fine for locations where you just don't have
 the room for PV, or have problems with things like snow. It can also be
 very cheap if done right (we have this modern propensity to vastly
 over-complicate everything). Remember that millions of of farmers
 successfully used windmills for decades before rural electrification.

 Geothermal is easy if you happen to be next to a river or lake. Or, I went
 to school in Michigan's Keewanaw peninsula. There are hundreds of abandoned
 mines left over from the copper mining boom times. So there are buildings
 that get their heating and cooling simply by ducting in the air from some
 old mine shaft or air vent. It's 68 deg.F year round!

 Also, on PV for vehicles. I've wondered why they haven't built a commuter
 train with PV panels on the roof. Rail has such low rolling resistance and
 such a huge amount of roof area that I'll bet you could make a considerable
 amount of your power with PV. If I wanted to set a land speed record for a
 purely solar powered vehicle, I'd build a solar car that ran on rails!

 Don't take these as serious suggestions for widespread use. But they *are*
 examples of special case solutions that might be useful in certain
 circumstances. :-)
 --
 Sometimes when you innovate, you make mistakes. It is best to admit
 them quickly and get on with improving your other innovations.
 (Steve Jobs)
 --
 Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell

michael.e.r...@gmail.com
michael.e.r...@gmail.com
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-31 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Mar 31, 2015, at 11:15 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 So called small wind energy is a money pit with no
 real payback - you need an exceptional location for a small turbine to be
 worth the effort.

Wind and hydro are just diluted forms of solar. On a planetary scale, they 
can't even begin to compete with solar photovoltaics.

However, there are certain microclimates where the landscape concentrates 
either wind or hydro in such a way that either can be a superlative local 
source of energy -- especially if the Sun tends to hide in those same climates.

Both are, ultimately, niche players...but they can be potentially indispensable 
in their relative niches.

Again however...the hydro niches are long since already developed, and the wind 
niches are mostly certain coastal regions and high mountain passes. Another 
interesting potential good use of wind is cropland...a single individual 
turbine won't necessarily have impressive generating capacities, but really big 
numbers of them can be put in in a way that doesn't interfere with growing 
crops and, in so doing, significantly increase the economic productivity of the 
land for the farmers.

Residential wind power makes sense for a few people, but only a very few 
people. (And it really does make all kinds of sense for certain people...just 
not for most.)

Rooftop solar, on the other hand, is economically viable basically everywhere, 
including the Pacific Northwest. It's more profitable in some places than 
others, but it's profitable everywhere (with a few footnotes, of course).

b
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-31 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Ben, if you can install enough batteries, as I believe you have, to go 
completely off the grid, then of course there's no advantage to the 
power company.


But, for most people, batteries in general can provide leveling to the 
power company but not sustained power.  That is, the power company can 
use the batteries to smooth out spikes and dips but cannot use them (nor 
would I want my battery used that way) to provide sustained power.  
Sustained power must come from the power company.


Where you live, Ben, you don't need to worry about a string of 10 cloudy 
dark days where solar PVs will be next to worthless.  Much of the rest 
of the country does have down times and will likely continue to rely 
on the grid to cover those periods.  Many don't even have the space to 
install a battery if they wanted to.  So, the power companies must have 
the capacity to supply power through such periods.


My claim is the power companies stand to make more profit if they build 
pumped storage instead of coal or nukes.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com
To: Peri Hartman pe...@kotatko.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List ev@lists.evdl.org

Sent: 31-Mar-15 12:24:47 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

On Mar 31, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
wrote:


 Thus, if the power companies were to continue to charge the same rate 
for electricity from pumped storage, they are making a better ROI than 
from building out new traditional power plants.


Your analysis passes the sniff test for me from previous 
experience...but, in a similar vein, the _real_ competition is from 
rooftop solar and batteries of the type we're being told will be in the 
Chevy B-as-in-what-a-clueless-marketing-department Bolt and that Tesla 
is strongly hinting at will soon be coming from their Gigafactory.


With that, the grid ostensibly gets the leveling effect the power 
companies want...but at the cost of losing a customer who now no longer 
has any need for the grid at all.


My own utility, Salt River Project, just shot itself in the foot that 
way. People like me with existing solar installations are grandfathered 
for at least a couple decades -- but not if we sell the house. 
Everybody else...will be paying almost as much as they'd be paying 
without solar thanks to their new rate structure.


They missed the boat. They've bought a brief window of time between now 
and the time of cheap batteries. They _could_ have embraced the change 
and become the leading installer (and maintainer and financier!) of 
rooftop solar as well as home batteries (sell it for the benefits of 
the homeowner, profit from a claim on so much power it stores at the 
utility's whim). Instead, they've signed their own corporate suicide 
pact.


Once batteries *do* get cheap -- and they will very soon -- for those 
with capital to invest it'll be cheaper to drop off the grid entirely 
rather than stay connected. For new construction, solar with a battery 
is already cheaper than grid connect fees. And, every customer they so 
lose...well, the money they used to be getting from that customer now 
has to get spread across the remaining customers, with their rates 
exponentially increasing as it becomes more and more profitable for 
more and more people to drop off the grid.


b


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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-31 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Mar 31, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Thus, if the power companies were to continue to charge the same rate for 
 electricity from pumped storage, they are making a better ROI than from 
 building out new traditional power plants.

Your analysis passes the sniff test for me from previous experience...but, in 
a similar vein, the _real_ competition is from rooftop solar and batteries of 
the type we're being told will be in the Chevy 
B-as-in-what-a-clueless-marketing-department Bolt and that Tesla is strongly 
hinting at will soon be coming from their Gigafactory.

With that, the grid ostensibly gets the leveling effect the power companies 
want...but at the cost of losing a customer who now no longer has any need for 
the grid at all.

My own utility, Salt River Project, just shot itself in the foot that way. 
People like me with existing solar installations are grandfathered for at least 
a couple decades -- but not if we sell the house. Everybody else...will be 
paying almost as much as they'd be paying without solar thanks to their new 
rate structure.

They missed the boat. They've bought a brief window of time between now and the 
time of cheap batteries. They _could_ have embraced the change and become the 
leading installer (and maintainer and financier!) of rooftop solar as well as 
home batteries (sell it for the benefits of the homeowner, profit from a claim 
on so much power it stores at the utility's whim). Instead, they've signed 
their own corporate suicide pact.

Once batteries *do* get cheap -- and they will very soon -- for those with 
capital to invest it'll be cheaper to drop off the grid entirely rather than 
stay connected. For new construction, solar with a battery is already cheaper 
than grid connect fees. And, every customer they so lose...well, the money they 
used to be getting from that customer now has to get spread across the 
remaining customers, with their rates exponentially increasing as it becomes 
more and more profitable for more and more people to drop off the grid.

b
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-31 Thread Michael Ross via EV
​A sail is impractical, unmanageable, a very good way to tip over with out
a keel or daggerboard.  Please do not try this.
Pedaling adds almost nothing as most of us have a hard time producing
100Watts continuously.​  Although it is good for you.

You may notice that wind energy is only very high up, and to get ROI you
need a large scale.  So called small wind energy is a money pit with no
real payback - you need an exceptional location for a small turbine to be
worth the effort.

Geothermal is costly because you can't drill a deep hole just anywhere and
it costs a lot, then you have to deal with the difficult chemicals that
come up with the steam (arsenic for example).  This is not a great choice
for domestic production.  Industrial or neighborhood scale maybe.

On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 11:57 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 Don't forget.  What you get from the solar panels is gravy.  You battery
 pack is the reservoir.  Stella which is very efficient can go 40 mph on
 just the solar array under perfect conditions.  You take what you can get
 and if it's not enough just use J1772.  You will be driving under all
 conditions.  If I was really far thinking I'd throw up a sail, add pedals
 or find a way to tap geothermalthat said I am using the easiest way to
 collectbut a stationary wind energy collector has been done and in some
 areas much better than solar.  Lawrence Rhodes
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To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell

michael.e.r...@gmail.com
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-31 Thread Jan Steinman via EV
From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 
 the hydro niches are long since already developed

Without arguing with your main point that PV is the largest market, I think 
your statement is not true and unfair to those who do have microhydro potential.

Relatively small streams can generate household amounts of power. I built a 
weir and did a flow test on the seasonal stream behind us, and I estimate it 
could generate close to 20 kW, November through March. That's 72 Megawatt-hours 
annually. That's enough for all the electricity needs, including some electric 
baseboard heat, for over two households -- hardly an amount to neglect!

Micro-hydro remains the most economical, trouble-free way for anyone with a 
stream and 100+ feet of head to obtain electric power. Granted, only a small 
minority meet those specifications, but I would submit that most of those are 
undeveloped.

 Nature has optimized the best way to optimize solar energy for maximum 
power through photosynthesis. -- Mary Logan
 Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op 

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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-31 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Mar 31, 2015, at 12:41 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Ben, if you can install enough batteries, as I believe you have, to go 
 completely off the grid, then of course there's no advantage to the power 
 company.

I don't have batteries yet and no plans to install them until the finances tip 
sufficiently...considering I'm grandfathered with respect to SRP's new 
exorbitant solar-killing rate plan, that'll be some years.

 But, for most people, batteries in general can provide leveling to the power 
 company but not sustained power.

This is indeed the use case I believe Tesla has in mind for their initial 
markets. Buy their batteries even if you don't have onsite generation; fill the 
batteries off peak when electricity is cheap and drain them on peak when 
electricity is expensive. Depending on how the math works out, you could see 
the capital expense repaid in short order with pure profits afterwards. And 
it'll dramatically increase the market for such batteries, driving down prices 
and all the rest.

 Where you live, Ben, you don't need to worry about a string of 10 cloudy dark 
 days where solar PVs will be next to worthless.

Many places as dire as you describe also have provisions for home heating oil 
or natural gas other energy inputs that could trivially be adapted to power a 
generator for a while. And, until batteries get big and cheap enough, it'll 
likely make sense even here in Arizona to have a small generator to tide over a 
couple days of winter weather now and again. As a bonus...such a generator 
really can be minimal. It doesn't need to meet peak demands, but only average 
demands and let the batteries handle the peaks.

 My claim is the power companies stand to make more profit if they build 
 pumped storage instead of coal or nukes.

I strongly suspect you're right.

But *my* claim is that at least some individuals (and companies like SolarCity) 
already today stand to make more profit with rooftop solar and batteries than 
with anything the utilities can offer, and that the number of such individuals 
will climb rapidly as battery prices fall until, eventually, nobody's left who 
wants to by _any_ power the utility might want to sell -- pumped storage or no.

b
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-31 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Mar 31, 2015, at 2:02 PM, Jan Steinman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Micro-hydro remains the most economical, trouble-free way for anyone with a 
 stream and 100+ feet of head to obtain electric power. Granted, only a small 
 minority meet those specifications, but I would submit that most of those are 
 undeveloped.

I wouldn't challenge you on that.

I'd just suggest that that's about as niche as niche gets

b
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-30 Thread Michael Ross via EV
We were talking about this a week or two ago.  Lawrence will be plugging
in, but he is optimistic that this can be minimized.  I think he is in the
Bay area though, so clouds may be an issue.

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 3:29 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 On Mar 30, 2015, at 12:19 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:

  It is simple: measure the surface area of the car and multiply by the
 expected PV efficiency,
  then you know why a Solar Racer needs full sun overhead most of the day
 *and* be an extreme car
  to achieve any speed or range.

 ...and it's worse than even that. The angle from the Sun to the panels
 matters a great deal. A panel at right angles to the incoming light
 receives the maximum amount of energy; a panel parallel to the light
 receives zero energy.

 You don't have much choice about the angles the panels of a car make with
 the light. Fixed panels, on the other hand, can either be statically
 positioned for an optimum annual average production or, if money isn't an
 object and space is at a premium, you can dynamically tilt the panels to
 follow the Sun.

 For the car...well, ideal geometry for the panels is going to be a flat
 top parallel to the ground, but that's a geometry bordering on the
 pathological for aerodynamics.

 b
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To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell

michael.e.r...@gmail.com
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-30 Thread Cor van de Water via EV
BTW, that was one of the reasons I saw people switch to electric motorcycle / 
big scooter type vehicle
so it is accepted that it gets rolled onto the curb and parked against the wall 
next to a garage,
so you can sneak out an extension cord from the garage to charge the bike, the 
only way of
curb-side charging without tripping danger or the need to dangle a cord from 
a tree, which will
likely invoke other responses.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water via EV
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 1:14 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

Most of California has almost all days sun, but he lives in SF, so clouds (the 
famous fog) is more an issue

but inside the city the shade from buildings and trees is certainly a factor 
*and* the fact that you do not

only want to drive while the sun is overhead.

There is a case for cars that get used very little (infrequent or very short 
drives) and can be parked in full sun

(like on a parking deck top floor, no trees or other buildings) so you can gain 
charge over time, about 5 hours

(full sun equivalent hours that is) per day, for an optimal-max of 5 kWh 
harvested each day.

So, if you have a Leaf and drive it 1 or 2 times per week, such an arrangement 
can work.

Anything that is a daily driver for more than what you could walk or bike and 
which gets parked in

whatever spot available (be picky and you can’t park at all in SF) and in 
real-life environment

and you won’t be able to use it 4 out of 5 times, I am afraid, so unless you 
normally always plug it

(again – a difficult proposition with mostly curb-side parking in SF) there is 
not much utility from an EV there…

 

Cor van de Water

Chief Scientist

Proxim Wireless

 

office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water

XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 
http://www.cvandewater.info 

www.proxim.com http://www.proxim.com/ 

 

 

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.

 

From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 12:41 PM
To: Ben Goren; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Cor van de Water
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

 

We were talking about this a week or two ago.  Lawrence will be plugging in, 
but he is optimistic that this can be minimized.  I think he is in the Bay area 
though, so clouds may be an issue.

 

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 3:29 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

On Mar 30, 2015, at 12:19 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 It is simple: measure the surface area of the car and multiply by the 
 expected PV efficiency, then you know why a Solar Racer needs full sun 
 overhead most of the day *and* be an extreme car to achieve any speed or 
 range.

...and it's worse than even that. The angle from the Sun to the panels matters 
a great deal. A panel at right angles to the incoming light receives the 
maximum amount of energy; a panel parallel to the light receives zero energy.

You don't have much choice about the angles the panels of a car make with the 
light. Fixed panels, on the other hand, can either be statically positioned for 
an optimum annual average production or, if money isn't an object and space is 
at a premium, you can dynamically tilt the panels to follow the Sun.

For the car...well, ideal geometry for the panels is going to be a flat top 
parallel to the ground, but that's a geometry bordering on the pathological for 
aerodynamics.

b

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-- 

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.

Thomas A. Edison 
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html 

 

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.

Warren Buffet

 

Michael E. Ross

(919) 585-6737 Land

(919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones  Google Phone

(919) 631-1451 Cell

Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-30 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Well, it might make sense for the special-case commute where your pack 
isn't large enough to make a round trip but, with solar panels charging 
during the day, you top off enough to get home.


Solves the can't-plug-in-at-work problem too.  In fact, you seek the 
un-coveted parking space that gets maximum sun while everyone else is 
looking for the space under a tree :)


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
To: Cor van de Water cwa...@proxim.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List ev@lists.evdl.org

Sent: 30-Mar-15 1:26:14 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:13 PM, Cor van de Water via EV 
ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:


 There is a case for cars that get used very little (infrequent or 
very short drives) and can be parked in full sun


 (like on a parking deck top floor, no trees or other buildings) so 
you can gain charge over time, about 5 hours


 (full sun equivalent hours that is) per day, for an optimal-max of 5 
kWh harvested each day.


...but...if you have the space you can permanently devote to parking 
the car like that...you can do far better on every front by putting the 
panels over that space, when they can generate power when you've got 
the car out and about, and generate more power when the car's sitting 
there, and power other things as well, and so on.


The only really not-crazy practical use case I can think of for a solar 
EV is for a nomad who's not in any type of a rush to get from one place 
to another. (Of course, they make great project challenges, especially 
for engineering students -- but they don't try to pretend that the 
vehicles are useful general-purpose vehicles).


...and, even if you iare/i the nomad type...you're probably still 
better off with the panels stowed away when driving, and setting them 
up as a tent-like structure over the vehicle when you've settled down 
for a couple days while you recharge for the next few hours of driving.


Come to think of it, even that isn't exactly practical, either.

You know...there's another way to look at it.

All life (within rounding) on Earth is solar powered. Plants, 
obviously. Animals eat the plants.


Consider the acreage needed to sustain a person. People are very small 
and low power objects compared to high-speed vehicles.


b
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-30 Thread Cor van de Water via EV
Yup,
People have a big foot print.
But that is a whole 'nother discussion,
except that with renewable energy powering the transportation,
I am able to reduce my foot print and I chose to do that using
an EV and buying green electricity...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: Ben Goren [mailto:b...@trumpetpower.com] 
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 1:26 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:13 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 There is a case for cars that get used very little (infrequent or very short 
 drives) and can be parked in full sun
 
 (like on a parking deck top floor, no trees or other buildings) so you can 
 gain charge over time, about 5 hours
 
 (full sun equivalent hours that is) per day, for an optimal-max of 5 kWh 
 harvested each day.

...but...if you have the space you can permanently devote to parking the car 
like that...you can do far better on every front by putting the panels over 
that space, when they can generate power when you've got the car out and about, 
and generate more power when the car's sitting there, and power other things as 
well, and so on.

The only really not-crazy practical use case I can think of for a solar EV is 
for a nomad who's not in any type of a rush to get from one place to another. 
(Of course, they make great project challenges, especially for engineering 
students -- but they don't try to pretend that the vehicles are useful 
general-purpose vehicles).

...and, even if you iare/i the nomad type...you're probably still better 
off with the panels stowed away when driving, and setting them up as a 
tent-like structure over the vehicle when you've settled down for a couple days 
while you recharge for the next few hours of driving.

Come to think of it, even that isn't exactly practical, either.

You know...there's another way to look at it.

All life (within rounding) on Earth is solar powered. Plants, obviously. 
Animals eat the plants.

Consider the acreage needed to sustain a person. People are very small and low 
power objects compared to high-speed vehicles.

b
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-30 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Mar 30, 2015, at 12:19 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 It is simple: measure the surface area of the car and multiply by the 
 expected PV efficiency,
 then you know why a Solar Racer needs full sun overhead most of the day *and* 
 be an extreme car
 to achieve any speed or range.

...and it's worse than even that. The angle from the Sun to the panels matters 
a great deal. A panel at right angles to the incoming light receives the 
maximum amount of energy; a panel parallel to the light receives zero energy.

You don't have much choice about the angles the panels of a car make with the 
light. Fixed panels, on the other hand, can either be statically positioned for 
an optimum annual average production or, if money isn't an object and space is 
at a premium, you can dynamically tilt the panels to follow the Sun.

For the car...well, ideal geometry for the panels is going to be a flat top 
parallel to the ground, but that's a geometry bordering on the pathological for 
aerodynamics.

b
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-30 Thread Cor van de Water via EV
Most of California has almost all days sun, but he lives in SF, so clouds (the 
famous fog) is more an issue

but inside the city the shade from buildings and trees is certainly a factor 
*and* the fact that you do not

only want to drive while the sun is overhead.

There is a case for cars that get used very little (infrequent or very short 
drives) and can be parked in full sun

(like on a parking deck top floor, no trees or other buildings) so you can gain 
charge over time, about 5 hours

(full sun equivalent hours that is) per day, for an optimal-max of 5 kWh 
harvested each day.

So, if you have a Leaf and drive it 1 or 2 times per week, such an arrangement 
can work.

Anything that is a daily driver for more than what you could walk or bike and 
which gets parked in

whatever spot available (be picky and you can’t park at all in SF) and in 
real-life environment

and you won’t be able to use it 4 out of 5 times, I am afraid, so unless you 
normally always plug it

(again – a difficult proposition with mostly curb-side parking in SF) there is 
not much utility from an EV there…

 

Cor van de Water

Chief Scientist

Proxim Wireless

 

office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water

XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 
http://www.cvandewater.info 

www.proxim.com http://www.proxim.com/ 

 

 

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.

 

From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 12:41 PM
To: Ben Goren; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Cor van de Water
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

 

We were talking about this a week or two ago.  Lawrence will be plugging in, 
but he is optimistic that this can be minimized.  I think he is in the Bay area 
though, so clouds may be an issue.

 

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 3:29 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

On Mar 30, 2015, at 12:19 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 It is simple: measure the surface area of the car and multiply by the 
 expected PV efficiency,
 then you know why a Solar Racer needs full sun overhead most of the day *and* 
 be an extreme car
 to achieve any speed or range.

...and it's worse than even that. The angle from the Sun to the panels matters 
a great deal. A panel at right angles to the incoming light receives the 
maximum amount of energy; a panel parallel to the light receives zero energy.

You don't have much choice about the angles the panels of a car make with the 
light. Fixed panels, on the other hand, can either be statically positioned for 
an optimum annual average production or, if money isn't an object and space is 
at a premium, you can dynamically tilt the panels to follow the Sun.

For the car...well, ideal geometry for the panels is going to be a flat top 
parallel to the ground, but that's a geometry bordering on the pathological for 
aerodynamics.

b

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-- 

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.

Thomas A. Edison 
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html 

 

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.

Warren Buffet

 

Michael E. Ross

(919) 585-6737 Land

(919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones  Google Phone

(919) 631-1451 Cell

michael.e.r...@gmail.com





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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-30 Thread Robert Bruninga via EV
I get about 1 km per hour of top-down-noon sun on a 200 Watt panel.  But
that only works May to July and only for the center 5 hours of the day.
The power drops to virtually zero in December due to the sun angle.

Having done it on two cars,  It just make no sense once I went solar at
home considering I have over 100 times more area on the roof of my house
than the car, and my house panels are always optimally pointed at the sun
and can get 100 times the power.

http://aprs.org/APRS-SPHEV.html

Its an old page, but those kind of non-glass flexible panels (about
$10/watt) have only dropped 10% in cost in the last 7 years compared to
the FACTOR OF TEN drop in solar cost for home roof top panels. (under 70
cents a watt).

So if you like chasing 5% solutions when the 95% solution is just sitting
there on your roof... go for it.  But it's a waste of time on the car.

Bob
-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via
EV
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 4:31 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

Well, it might make sense for the special-case commute where your pack
isn't large enough to make a round trip but, with solar panels charging
during the day, you top off enough to get home.

Solves the can't-plug-in-at-work problem too.  In fact, you seek the
un-coveted parking space that gets maximum sun while everyone else is
looking for the space under a tree :)

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
To: Cor van de Water cwa...@proxim.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion
List ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: 30-Mar-15 1:26:14 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:13 PM, Cor van de Water via EV
ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

  There is a case for cars that get used very little (infrequent or
very short drives) and can be parked in full sun

  (like on a parking deck top floor, no trees or other buildings) so
you can gain charge over time, about 5 hours

  (full sun equivalent hours that is) per day, for an optimal-max of 5
kWh harvested each day.

...but...if you have the space you can permanently devote to parking
the car like that...you can do far better on every front by putting the
panels over that space, when they can generate power when you've got
the car out and about, and generate more power when the car's sitting
there, and power other things as well, and so on.

The only really not-crazy practical use case I can think of for a solar
EV is for a nomad who's not in any type of a rush to get from one place
to another. (Of course, they make great project challenges, especially
for engineering students -- but they don't try to pretend that the
vehicles are useful general-purpose vehicles).

...and, even if you iare/i the nomad type...you're probably still
better off with the panels stowed away when driving, and setting them
up as a tent-like structure over the vehicle when you've settled down
for a couple days while you recharge for the next few hours of driving.

Come to think of it, even that isn't exactly practical, either.

You know...there's another way to look at it.

All life (within rounding) on Earth is solar powered. Plants,
obviously. Animals eat the plants.

Consider the acreage needed to sustain a person. People are very small
and low power objects compared to high-speed vehicles.

b
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-30 Thread Cor van de Water via EV
Lawrence,

It is simple: measure the surface area of the car and multiply by the expected 
PV efficiency,
then you know why a Solar Racer needs full sun overhead most of the day *and* 
be an extreme car
to achieve any speed or range.

Example: typical car is about 12 ft long, 5 or 6 ft wide.
The max that you could achieve is a solar roof that has the same outline as the 
car itself
(the principle of a solar racer) so that gives about 60-70 sq ft.
With very efficient panels, that may generate up to 1kW in perfect sun 
conditions and since
most lighter cars have about 0.2 kWh per mile, you can do about 5 miles per 
hour with that power. Oops.

For cruising down the freeway, you need about 15kW, so to maintain that 
ability, your solar panel
must be delivering 15 times as much power as the one I just suggest can do 
under optimal conditions,
so in real life when there are some clouds, the sun not directly overhead, some 
trees or buildings
causing shade and so on, your solar car needs an even bigger solar panel.

I have seen motorcycles and bicycles run at lower power, there was a trike with 
a solar roof that
attended several EV events, but if you go up in speed then they consume close 
to what a car does
at speed, simply caused by aerodynamics. Look at how records are set on a bike: 
you can only go fast
with either a fairing or by following a vehicle in the drag.
e-Bikes can live off of less than 1kW, but now you are talking about 15-20 MPH 
on bicycle wheels,
not a car for the highway.

What is it that you are trying to achieve?

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
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prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 11:57 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

I had some brain storms with the placement of solar panels.  In a sedan simply 
cover the back of the back seats in panels.  Cover the dash, hood, top and 
trunk. In a fastback/hatchback like lets say an Aspire make a cover for the 
trunk out of solar panels. Virtually the whole square footage of the car can 
contain panels.  The car would still be visually safe. Not sure how much loss 
you get through windows. To get the power you need maybe a solar trailer with 
2kw of panels for a total of maybe 3kw.  Now you are talking some real power.  
Maybe enough to cruise at 25 or 30 mph and not touch the pack.  I did some 
calculations on Dave Clouds Dolphin.  It has with near 2000 pounds of batteries 
a 36kw pack.  The car he somehow got down to under 1200 pounds.  I bet if he 
simply put in a Nissan Leaf pack with  the loss of Perkuet he might get more 
than 200 mile range with the 24kw pack.  Not sure I can calculate it.  Any how 
maybe the secret of solar vehicles for us hobbyists is trailing the panels you 
need to make it work. If nothing else it gives me an idea for a solar RV.  Use 
the trailer to also house a fold able RV/cargo space.   Lawrence Rhodes 
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-30 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:13 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 There is a case for cars that get used very little (infrequent or very short 
 drives) and can be parked in full sun
 
 (like on a parking deck top floor, no trees or other buildings) so you can 
 gain charge over time, about 5 hours
 
 (full sun equivalent hours that is) per day, for an optimal-max of 5 kWh 
 harvested each day.

...but...if you have the space you can permanently devote to parking the car 
like that...you can do far better on every front by putting the panels over 
that space, when they can generate power when you've got the car out and about, 
and generate more power when the car's sitting there, and power other things as 
well, and so on.

The only really not-crazy practical use case I can think of for a solar EV is 
for a nomad who's not in any type of a rush to get from one place to another. 
(Of course, they make great project challenges, especially for engineering 
students -- but they don't try to pretend that the vehicles are useful 
general-purpose vehicles).

...and, even if you iare/i the nomad type...you're probably still better 
off with the panels stowed away when driving, and setting them up as a 
tent-like structure over the vehicle when you've settled down for a couple days 
while you recharge for the next few hours of driving.

Come to think of it, even that isn't exactly practical, either.

You know...there's another way to look at it.

All life (within rounding) on Earth is solar powered. Plants, obviously. 
Animals eat the plants.

Consider the acreage needed to sustain a person. People are very small and low 
power objects compared to high-speed vehicles.

b
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-30 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Ben Goren via EV wrote:

...and it's worse than even that. The angle from the Sun to the
panels matters a great deal. A panel at right angles to the incoming
light receives the maximum amount of energy; a panel parallel to the
light receives zero energy.


Agreed. There are some tricks, though.

Some solar car designs had aerodynamic shapes that were *mostly* flat, 
to maximize the panel area presented to the sun. Some had panels that 
folded out when parked, to get more area when wind resistance wasn't an 
issue.


Conceptually, a vehicle could be very long or very tall, to get 
additional area while staying within the footprint of a normal 
vehicle. A vehicle could even change its shape dynamically, depending on 
how the car was positioned relative to the sun. Or use movable panels 
inside a fixed transparent aerodynamic shell, or use adjustable mirrors 
to concentrate the light on the cells.


But overall, the amount of power you can get from the sun in a 
normal-sized is very limited. That pretty much forces you to concentrate 
on vehicle efficiency. Extremely light, with exceptionally good 
aerodynamics and very high efficiency components (tires, motor, 
controller, etc. At least, that's how the solar cars have all done it.



You don't have much choice about the angles the panels of a car make
with the light. Fixed panels, on the other hand, can either be
statically positioned for an optimum annual average production or, if
money isn't an object and space is at a premium, you can dynamically
tilt the panels to follow the Sun.

For the car...well, ideal geometry for the panels is going to be a
flat top parallel to the ground, but that's a geometry bordering on
the pathological for aerodynamics.


It works well for airplane wing, though. :-)

--
Sometimes when you innovate, you make mistakes. It is best to admit
them quickly and get on with improving your other innovations.
(Steve Jobs)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-30 Thread Lawrence Harris via EV
Agreed.

The 'solar garage' has so many benefits.

The placement of the cells can be (more or less) optimized for charging.
The panels can be fairly standard ones and so relatively cheaper.
The dump pack can provide emergency power for the freezer and other essential 
items.
The space underneath will be shaded and would make a nice patio area to relax 
in under the hot sun.

A solar car would be a neat thing to see but I don’t think it would be 
practical as a daily driver.  A solar dump store with a quick charge port on 
the car would be more usable.

I know I give up on solar battery charges all the time when I work out how long 
in direct sun I would need to recharge my phone or laptop and realize it’s 
several days to recharge per day of use.  For example MEC has a 9Ah charger 
that claims 'Solar panel output is 3W and will fully charge battery pack in 
about 18 hours of strong sunlight’; yes 500ma x 18 hours = 9Ahr but that’s 18 
hours of strong sunlight, maybe 3 days if you can get 6-8 hours a day.  For 
most long weekends away I’ll just take a couple of big rechargeable batteries.  
A solar charger in my earthquake bug out bag might be useful however.


Lawrence Harris


 On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:26 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
 
 On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:13 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
 wrote:
 
 There is a case for cars that get used very little (infrequent or very short 
 drives) and can be parked in full sun
 
 (like on a parking deck top floor, no trees or other buildings) so you can 
 gain charge over time, about 5 hours
 
 (full sun equivalent hours that is) per day, for an optimal-max of 5 kWh 
 harvested each day.
 
 ...but...if you have the space you can permanently devote to parking the car 
 like that...you can do far better on every front by putting the panels over 
 that space, when they can generate power when you've got the car out and 
 about, and generate more power when the car's sitting there, and power other 
 things as well, and so on.
 
 The only really not-crazy practical use case I can think of for a solar EV is 
 for a nomad who's not in any type of a rush to get from one place to another. 
 (Of course, they make great project challenges, especially for engineering 
 students -- but they don't try to pretend that the vehicles are useful 
 general-purpose vehicles).
 
 ...and, even if you iare/i the nomad type...you're probably still better 
 off with the panels stowed away when driving, and setting them up as a 
 tent-like structure over the vehicle when you've settled down for a couple 
 days while you recharge for the next few hours of driving.
 
 Come to think of it, even that isn't exactly practical, either.
 
 You know...there's another way to look at it.
 
 All life (within rounding) on Earth is solar powered. Plants, obviously. 
 Animals eat the plants.
 
 Consider the acreage needed to sustain a person. People are very small and 
 low power objects compared to high-speed vehicles.
 
 b
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-30 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:31 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 Well, it might make sense for the special-case commute where your pack isn't 
 large enough to make a round trip but, with solar panels charging during the 
 day, you top off enough to get home.

...and then, when it's cloudy...you're stuck at work. Or you only drive the 
vehicle when the forecaster says there'll be enough sun for you to be able to 
get home and hope there aren't any freak storms that develop.

b
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-30 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Mar 30, 2015, at 2:16 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 I am sure that he won't start until things are clearer for him and he is 
 getting
 our input for just that - advice in which direction to go.

Well...in that case, my advice would be an awful lot of budgeting -- energy, 
weight, money, time, and everything else.

Start with the Stella as an assumption of a best-case scenario.

You should be able to find or guess all the important facts.

How much does it weigh? How much would it cost to build an one-off carbon fiber 
structure of that weight? If you haven't built anything with carbon fiber, call 
up a shop that specializes in it and ask them for a ballpark figure of what 
they'd charge you and run with that number. Yes, you'd be able to do it 
cheaper...but only assuming you do it perfect the first time, so run with their 
number.

The surface area of the panels should be known. Use that figure to spec out the 
highest-output lightest-weight moldable panels you can find...and don't be 
surprised when _that_ cost is close to if not more than what your mortgage 
statement reads.

You've got weight and energy in; from there, you can calculate power 
requirements and how close the panels come to meeting them. For the generation, 
take the standard figures for rooftop solar, make sure that the installation 
angle of the calculator you use is horizontal, and knock off at least another 
10% due to even worse geometry and the like.

At this point, you're already looking at a project that costs six figures 
easily and likely, even on paper, doesn't go as fast nor as far as you want it 
to. So, if you want to keep pursuing the project, work on those bits. Once 
you've got that much solved, then you're ready to start moving on to more 
mundane things like motors and batteries and the like.

b
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle

2015-03-30 Thread Lawrence Rhodes via EV
I think this is a work in progress.  If you remember John Wayland his Blue 
Meanie and White Zombie have had many revisions.  So far Stella  the Solar 
Taxi are the best examples of viable vehicles.  You could start with a moped 
speed vehicle at 2kw and work your way up to a road going vehicle.  3 kw is 
4hp.  You can do a lot with 4 hp.  But you have to tow.  Stella uses 1.5kw but 
is very efficient.  It is no doubt doable but your vehicle must be aero and 
have a good aerodynamic connection to the trailer.  A very aerodynamic  light 
vehicle could easily have a 100 mile range with 10kw.  Maybe more like 200 if 
everything is perfect.  If you had 3kw at your disposal you could charge in a 
little over 3 hours or extend your day time range.  In this arena lighter is 
better but area on top is important.  Stella does not look aerodynamic.  It 
looks like a van that has been squashed.  It is relatively wide and long but if 
you look at the side view it looks very teardrop like in it's side profile.  
Since it consumes 55wh per mile it is indeed very aerodynamic. It has a 375 
mile range on 16kw without the solar panel...but being greedy I want every free 
watt of energy I can get.  I'm envisioning a kind of RV like vehicle with a 
towed solar panel.  I probably can't afford the super efficient tires, wheels 
and motors that Stella uses.  The Solar Taxi has old technology and is not that 
efficient.  But the goal is on average to use no grid energy to charge.  On 
long trips that will probably be unavoidable.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-30 Thread Rush Dougherty via EV
When I had a full time job (although this J1772 stuff is turning into a full
time job...), I'd have to leave around 6:30 - 7 AM and it would be dark out. If
I had a EV that depended on PV panels on the EV roof, I'd be stuck at home,
maybe not too bad a deal...

Rush
Tucson AZ


 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV
 Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 1:48 PM
 To: Peri Hartman; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

 On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:31 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

  Well, it might make sense for the special-case commute where your pack isn't
 large enough to make a round trip but, with solar panels charging during the
day,
 you top off enough to get home.

 ...and then, when it's cloudy...you're stuck at work. Or you only drive the
vehicle
 when the forecaster says there'll be enough sun for you to be able to get home
and
 hope there aren't any freak storms that develop.

 b
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-30 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Mar 30, 2015, at 3:06 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 But overall, the amount of power you can get from the sun in a normal-sized 
 is very limited. That pretty much forces you to concentrate on vehicle 
 efficiency. Extremely light, with exceptionally good aerodynamics and very 
 high efficiency components (tires, motor, controller, etc. At least, that's 
 how the solar cars have all done it.

Exactly...and that means cutting edge high tech stuff that takes lots of money 
and years of education and experience and, realistically, a sizable team of 
top-notch people to pull off. Not a single guy who's asking the kinds of 
questions Lawrence is.

 For the car...well, ideal geometry for the panels is going to be a
 flat top parallel to the ground, but that's a geometry bordering on
 the pathological for aerodynamics.
 
 It works well for airplane wing, though. :-)

Yes...well...um...my point, exactly...? An airplane wing without an airplane is 
a pretty good description of a crash investigation scene

b
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-30 Thread Cor van de Water via EV
Yeah, I have considered visiting SF (1 hour away) when Stella came through but 
had other
obligations.
1.5kW solar on Stella means that it will get about 7-8 kWh under optimal 
conditions in a day
and to be able to travel 70km (44 mi) on that energy means that its optimized 
efficiency is
about 170 Wh/mi which is pretty good and achievable for a carefully driven and 
well layed out
vehicle with LRR tires, no unnecessary friction, low loss drive train and good 
aero and
moderate speed.
The latter part should (and have been) done before, look at the Sunrise project 
and several
quests to streamline small vehicles like a Geo Metro with a new tail that I saw 
some years ago.
But the limitations of charging-on-the-go with solar on the roof does not make 
much practical sense,
we are simply too spoiled with the amount of energy that we can turn on with 
the flick of a switch
or the push of a throttle.
Now, I did once advise a person who wanted an RV with solar and did not mind 
charging for days
until it could be driven to the next camp ground / unimproved camp location.
I suggested to keep the grid-charger as backup so a camp ground with outlets 
could be used,
but if you are willing to trek only when you have charged long enough then that 
might work.
That was a retired survivalist type though, not the typical city dweller who 
needs to have the
kids to music class in 15 minutes and back at work in 30.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator via 
EV
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 1:50 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

I don't speak for Lawrence, but it looks to me as if he's is on a quest.  

He saw the Stella solar vehicle (look it up online) when it came through his 
area several months back.  As you can see from the Stella's website, its 
builders are flogging the PR donkey hard, hoping to land a deal to get 
something like it into production.  I suspect that Lawrence found their Kool- 
Aid pretty tasty.  I probably would have too.  

I may have misunderstood him, but Lawrence seems to think that Stella can run 
at highway speeds on just the output from its solar array, which is rated 
1.5kW.  I wonder if the Stella PR folks have been giving that impression.  
However, what I've read about it suggests that it needs all day in the sun to 
go 70km per day.  That's still a pretty significant feat, but not the same as 
cruising on real-time sunshine.

This is also where practicality rears its head.  That might work when you're 
driving and parking under a cloudless sky on the open Australian outback, which 
is where the solar race is held.  I'm not so sure it'll work as well on 
tree-lined suburban streets or city streets with tall buildings.  And then 
there's the wintertime with shorter days and shallower insolation angles.  What 
then?

There's also the builder's situation.  AFAIK, Stella's builders were a 
university team with lots of different technical skills and all the time and 
energy of youth.  They also had a university's resources behind them.  If 
they're like most university teams, they got a lot of high-dollar parts, tools, 
equipment, and services donated to them. 

My guess is that Lawrence doesn't want to wait for a production version (or 
suspects, as I do, that it'll be a cold day in hell before it goes into 
production).  I think he probably wants to duplicate the Stella team's feat 
with a hobbyist's resources and connections.  

Can he do it?   Maybe.  I don't know his situation. If you're wealthy, you 
can solve a problem like this by throwing a few hundred thousand dollars at it. 
 Or if you have lots of time on your hands, you can give it all your time, 
energy, and imagination, pretty much giving up the rest of your life.  
Single-minded inventors and developers have done amazing things on shoestrings 
in their back yards and garages, just by persevering, trying things until they 
found ones that worked.  So - who knows?  

This kind of project is beyond what I personally would want to get into, in 
terms of time and potential financial commitment.  But maybe I'm not typical.  
I say more power (sorry ;-) to Lawrence and wish him the best.  I wish I lived 
nearby, so I could watch and cheer him on.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: 
http://www.evdl.org/help

Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-30 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
I don't speak for Lawrence, but it looks to me as if he's is on a quest.  

He saw the Stella solar vehicle (look it up online) when it came through 
his area several months back.  As you can see from the Stella's website, its 
builders are flogging the PR donkey hard, hoping to land a deal to get 
something like it into production.  I suspect that Lawrence found their Kool-
Aid pretty tasty.  I probably would have too.  

I may have misunderstood him, but Lawrence seems to think that Stella can 
run at highway speeds on just the output from its solar array, which is 
rated 1.5kW.  I wonder if the Stella PR folks have been giving that 
impression.  However, what I've read about it suggests that it needs all day 
in the sun to go 70km per day.  That's still a pretty significant feat, but 
not the same as cruising on real-time sunshine.

This is also where practicality rears its head.  That might work when you're 
driving and parking under a cloudless sky on the open Australian outback, 
which is where the solar race is held.  I'm not so sure it'll work as well 
on tree-lined suburban streets or city streets with tall buildings.  And 
then there's the wintertime with shorter days and shallower insolation 
angles.  What then?

There's also the builder's situation.  AFAIK, Stella's builders were a 
university team with lots of different technical skills and all the time and 
energy of youth.  They also had a university's resources behind them.  If 
they're like most university teams, they got a lot of high-dollar parts, 
tools, equipment, and services donated to them. 

My guess is that Lawrence doesn't want to wait for a production version (or 
suspects, as I do, that it'll be a cold day in hell before it goes into 
production).  I think he probably wants to duplicate the Stella team's feat 
with a hobbyist's resources and connections.  

Can he do it?   Maybe.  I don't know his situation. If you're wealthy, you 
can solve a problem like this by throwing a few hundred thousand dollars at 
it.  Or if you have lots of time on your hands, you can give it all your 
time, energy, and imagination, pretty much giving up the rest of your life.  
Single-minded inventors and developers have done amazing things on 
shoestrings in their back yards and garages, just by persevering, trying 
things until they found ones that worked.  So - who knows?  

This kind of project is beyond what I personally would want to get into, in 
terms of time and potential financial commitment.  But maybe I'm not 
typical.  I say more power (sorry ;-) to Lawrence and wish him the best.  I 
wish I lived nearby, so I could watch and cheer him on.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not 
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-30 Thread Cor van de Water via EV
Ben,
Don't worry - Lawrence has been around for longer and has done many EVs
and he does like to tinker until it works.
He once found out that the rear sprocket for an e-motorcycle need to be
almost taller than the rear wheel to get a decent torque for climbing SF hills.
I am sure that he won't start until things are clearer for him and he is getting
our input for just that - advice in which direction to go.
Overwhelmingly, that direction is to put solar on the home (or buy green power)
and charge the batteries of the car.
But it is interesting to explore (on paper) the alternatives before even getting
started in building something.
The Stella will answer the question how much demand there is for such a 
vehicle.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


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message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 2:07 PM
To: EVDL Administrator; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:49 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
wrote:

 I say more power (sorry ;-) to Lawrence and wish him the best.  I wish 
 I lived nearby, so I could watch and cheer him on.

There's a big part of me that wants to wish him the best with the project...but 
there's an even bigger part that's screaming at me that he's in way over his 
head and has no clue what he's getting himself into. Things like what appear to 
be ignorance of basic automotive engineering concepts (like a differential) and 
aerodynamics (his idea of using lift to make the car seem lighter) and power 
(not understanding how much energy a vehicle needs) and optics (his idea of 
lining the seat headrests with panels) and more.

I'm sorry, but this whole thing just has fail plastered all over it, and I'd 
love to see him put his enthusiasm towards something he's not guaranteed to 
fail at.

Lawrence? May I suggest?

Ditch this project. Put it out of your mind. If you ever get to the point that 
you have what it takes to see it through, you'll know it because you'll have 
all the details already worked out in your head.

Instead...work on building yourself a practical electric vehicle, not solar, 
but a direct replacement for your current vehicle or one you wish you had. And 
not something with the thought that you might make it solar later, 
either...just a garden-variety conversion of a regular car. A VW Bug would be a 
great candidate, and a Karmann Ghia even better.

Once you've made yourself a normal electric vehicle, _then_ you can start to 
think about what you might want to do in the next one...and, also, by then, 
chances are superlative that you'll realize just how impractical this solar 
project really is.

b
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-30 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:31 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 I am able to reduce my foot print and I chose to do that using
 an EV and buying green electricity...

That's why, when I put a bunch of panels on my roof some years back, I 
intentionally oversized it so I could power an EV and still not need net 
energy. Still working on the EV solution (though it's closer every day), but my 
(substantial) net surplus almost makes up for the carbon emissions from the 
miles I drive.

...in that sense, you can _almost_ suggest that my '68 VW Westfalia with its 
1600cc gasoline engine is solar powered, but I wouldn't actually go that far

b
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-30 Thread Ben Goren via EV
On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:49 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
wrote:

 I say more power (sorry ;-) to Lawrence and wish him the best.  I 
 wish I lived nearby, so I could watch and cheer him on.

There's a big part of me that wants to wish him the best with the project...but 
there's an even bigger part that's screaming at me that he's in way over his 
head and has no clue what he's getting himself into. Things like what appear to 
be ignorance of basic automotive engineering concepts (like a differential) and 
aerodynamics (his idea of using lift to make the car seem lighter) and power 
(not understanding how much energy a vehicle needs) and optics (his idea of 
lining the seat headrests with panels) and more.

I'm sorry, but this whole thing just has fail plastered all over it, and I'd 
love to see him put his enthusiasm towards something he's not guaranteed to 
fail at.

Lawrence? May I suggest?

Ditch this project. Put it out of your mind. If you ever get to the point that 
you have what it takes to see it through, you'll know it because you'll have 
all the details already worked out in your head.

Instead...work on building yourself a practical electric vehicle, not solar, 
but a direct replacement for your current vehicle or one you wish you had. And 
not something with the thought that you might make it solar later, 
either...just a garden-variety conversion of a regular car. A VW Bug would be a 
great candidate, and a Karmann Ghia even better.

Once you've made yourself a normal electric vehicle, _then_ you can start to 
think about what you might want to do in the next one...and, also, by then, 
chances are superlative that you'll realize just how impractical this solar 
project really is.

b
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.

2015-03-30 Thread Lawrence Rhodes via EV
First of all for those of you that don't know the bay area including it seems 
Cor(who lives close by) there are many micro climates.  My neighborhood is very 
sunny most of the day almost every day.  The fog comes in at night.  There are 
famous pictures of the fog cresting Noe Valley.  So sun is not a problem and as 
a matter of fact I have a south facing hill 4 blocks from my house which would 
be perfect if I wanted more concentrated energy.  I am no noobie  Lawrence 
Rhodes' 1997 Ford Aspire
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| Lawrence Rhodes' 1997 Ford AspireOwner Lawrence Rhodes Owner's Other EVs EMB 
Lectra Vego 600 SX 1980 Jet ElectraVan 750 Schwinn Stingray 2001 Lepton 1987 
Honda VT700 Shadow 2007 I-zip ... |
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  I have a dozen ev projects under my belt as well as veggie diesel projects.  
I sold my Aspire for 3k and could buy it back for 1.5 but it is just too heavy 
for my purposes. (BTW it is in Santa Cruz CA and is a super bargain for someone 
interested in a daily driver.(it would be awsome with a leaf pack) $1500.00. It 
did much service taking kids to school in the last decade.  It is at 144vdc 
very peppy.(leaves beamers in the dust for half a block)  It's just not nice 
and shinny. So a paint job and body work is needed)   Possibly EVen Dave Clouds 
Dolphin with a Leaf pack which would put the car at 17 or 18 hundred pounds  
still might be too heavy.  I think something like Lynch put together might be 
the ticket just wider and longer.  Of course it could go the other way and 
maybe just 750 watts of panel on a very faired motorcycle might also work but 
it can't be aero and safe with out out riggers like eTracer or the Lit C1.    
So I think its a numbers game.  Do the math  build the vehicle.  It's the only 
way to go.  I suspect a towed array and panels on the vehicle will do it.  Just 
not sure of the combo.or my budget.  Look what Dave Cloud did with 3 grand 
and an idea.   I already have solar on my roof.  It's time for the power to be 
autonomous  add to what I'm putting back into the grid. Shade sh made.  I'm 
doing it. Don't forget Stella consumes 55wh per mile. Can drive 40 mph and not 
use energy from the pack. I have a goal.  Just no telling how close I can come. 
But that being said if I had a leaf pack in my Aspire and 3k of Solar that is 7 
hours of charging to full.hmmm maybe I should go that way. It would cost 10 
k or so for the panels, 2500 for the leaf pack and then there is the charger 
and BMS.  However what a project.    Lawrence Rhodes
 
 
   
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Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle

2015-03-30 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

I think this is a work in progress.  If you remember John Wayland his Blue Meanie and 
White Zombie have had many revisions.  So far Stella  the Solar Taxi are the best 
examples of viable vehicles.  You could start with a moped speed vehicle at 2kw and 
work your way up to a road going vehicle.  3 kw is 4hp.  You can do a lot with 4 hp.  
But you have to tow.  Stella uses 1.5kw but is very efficient.  It is no doubt doable 
but your vehicle must be aero and have a good aerodynamic connection to the trailer.  A 
very aerodynamic  light vehicle could easily have a 100 mile range with 10kw.  
Maybe more like 200 if everything is perfect.  If you had 3kw at your disposal you 
could charge in a little over 3 hours or extend your day time range.  In this arena 
lighter is better but area on top is important.  Stella does not look aerodynamic.  It 
looks like a van that has been squashed.  It is relatively wide and long but if you 
look at the side view it looks very teardrop like in it's

 side p
rofile.  Since it consumes 55wh per mile it is indeed very aerodynamic. It has 
a 375 mile range on 16kw without the solar panel...but being greedy I want 
every free watt of energy I can get.  I'm envisioning a kind of RV like vehicle 
with a towed solar panel.  I probably can't afford the super efficient tires, 
wheels and motors that Stella uses.  The Solar Taxi has old technology and is 
not that efficient.  But the goal is on average to use no grid energy to 
charge.  On long trips that will probably be unavoidable.  Lawrence Rhodes

That's the spirit, Lawrence! Everything is impossible until someone 
goes off and does it. ;-)


So, listen to all the experts, saying what the problems are, and what's 
been tried so far to deal with them. Maybe there are still some things 
to be tried.


In our BEST program (www.bestoutreach.com), we mentor 4th-6th grade 
students to build electric vehicles. We don't give them kits or plans or 
parts or money. They're limited to a maximum of $100. They *invent* 
their own solutions, do their own experiments, *scrounge up* the parts, 
*build* their prototypes, and *test* it for themselves.


Adults have a hard time with this concept. They assume that since they 
can't build a car out of scrap for $100, it must be impossible for the 
kids to do it. Yet year after year, they do it!


I've seen cars made almost entirely out of cardboard. I've seen a bed 
turned into a car. I've seen cars that move using propellers. I've seen 
a 2-wheel self-balancing Segway-like car that worked without computers 
and gyroscopes. I've seen cars with 9 wheels, none of which can steer 
(they leaned to put different sets of wheels on the ground to turn). All 
designed by kids that didn't know it couldn't be done!


It makes me think long and hard before saying something is impossible.

Hmmm... maybe we should start a contest. Give each team of students one 
particular make/model of solar panel, and see who can go the farthest 
and fastest solely on the power it provides. :-)

--
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing 
it. (Chinese proverb)

--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Making Solar Work in a Conventional Vehicle 30 march 2015

2015-03-30 Thread Jesse Blenn Costa Rica via EV
Hello, my first comment I think, hope I do it right!

On Solar, some things need clarifying:

1. Area and angle of car-mounted collectors.  Yes, at 90 degrees to sun is
best, but at 45 degrees you will still get near 70% energy.  That is
perhaps a useful cut-off point to avoid expense and weight (and drag?) of
panels with low output.  I like to use square meters which give about 11
square feet per square meter.  A small car we are designing has about 1.5
square meters of usable collector mounting, maximum 2 square meters or 22
square feet.

2. There is NOT no energy on vertical panels, as there is always indirect
radiation.  Sometimes this is the major solar energy available (England in
winter)  I studied this one time, don't remember the exact details but
they are available.  But it is lower.

3. If the solar panels create ANY appreciable drag chances are high they
will add more to your daily power consumption than they give.  Dumb idea.

4. Maximum solar energy is considered to be about one kilowatt per square
meter at noon.  Affordable panels appear to be near 20% efficiency.  So we
can get about 200 watts per hour of full sun per square meter. Different
areas have solar radiations than can be rated in equivalent noon-time hours
of sun per day.  For example here in Costa Rica it is near 5 hours
equivalent per day year round.  So a panel that can put out about 200 watts
per square meter will put out about 200 watts x 5 hours = 1000 watt hours
per day.  If you can get 2 square meters on your car you can have 2
kilowatt hours per day to charge your batteries.

4. I REPEAT, to CHARGE YOUR BATTERIES.  Having batteries on board and
unless you drive your car ALL day long (!) it is silly to calculate how
fast you can go ONLY from the power from the cells at the moment. Store
that power!

6. Lets use a Nissan Leaf as an example. IF we say a usable 80 miles per
charge for the 24 kwh pack to 80% discharge, then we are using about 20 kwh
to go 80 miles.  That is about 250 watt hours per mile. If we can get the
above 2 kilowatt hours per day (optimistic because I did not include
battery losses) then you will get about 8 miles per day of free driving
from the solar panels.  If you can have a lighter and smaller car maybe you
can get 175 watt hours per mile?  That would give 11.4 miles.  Or if 150
watt hours then 13.3 miles.

7. So it would seem that you can get maybe an average of eight to twelve
miles per day from roof-mounted solar panels.  Do the math to see if it is
worth the effort and expense. It likely will be only in some special
cases.  BUT if your trips are short, commercial power not reliable, and you
can park it in the sun. it could be a very satisfying experience.

Jesse Blenn
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