Re: [EVDL] Watch Malfunctioning meter. on YouTube

2015-03-18 Thread George Tyler via EV
It is clearly the sun causing the problem. Some years ago I was designing
RFID readers for cow tags, I found that the tags themselves were sensitive
to sunlight! In fact, any chip that does not have sunlight positively
excluded is this meter will probably have a chip bonded to the bottom of
the pcb directly with a blob of sealer on the top.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via
EV
Sent: Wednesday, 18 March 2015 10:56 a.m.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Watch Malfunctioning meter. on YouTube

Malfunctioning meter.: https://youtu.be/xNy8IOlRkII

This is the correct url.  Lawrence Rhodes

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Re: [EVDL] Watch Malfunctioning meter. on YouTube

2015-03-18 Thread Chris Meier via EV
Is it a specific band of sunlight, such as IR, that causes the effect?

On March 18, 2015 5:18:45 AM CDT, George Tyler via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
It is clearly the sun causing the problem. Some years ago I was
designing
RFID readers for cow tags, I found that the tags themselves were
sensitive
to sunlight! In fact, any chip that does not have sunlight positively
excluded is this meter will probably have a chip bonded to the
bottom of
the pcb directly with a blob of sealer on the top.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence
Rhodes via
EV
Sent: Wednesday, 18 March 2015 10:56 a.m.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Watch Malfunctioning meter. on YouTube

Malfunctioning meter.: https://youtu.be/xNy8IOlRkII

This is the correct url.  Lawrence Rhodes

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Re: [EVDL] Watch Malfunctioning meter. on YouTube

2015-03-18 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Chris Meier via EV wrote:

Is it a specific band of sunlight, such as IR, that causes the effect?


It depends on exactly what part is being affected.

Silicon devices (most ICs, transistors, and diode) are most affected by 
infrared light.


LEDs are most affected by light of the same color as the light they produce.

If there is an actual light level sensor (photoresistor, etc.) then it 
could be responsive to the whole spectrum.


This is all affected by whatever filters the light has to pass through 
first. For example, PCB material is usually greenish; so light that 
passes through it to get to the chip on the back will be mostly green.


That said... while any given device is the most sensitive to its 
favorite color, it still reacts to other wavelengths. Sunlight is so 
intense and has such a broad spectrum that it will affect all of them.

--
We cannot waste time. We can only waste ourselves.
-- George Matthew Adams
--
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Re: [EVDL] Watch Malfunctioning meter. on YouTube

2015-03-18 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
 https://youtu.be/xNy8IOlRkII

This is an interesting video clip, not just for the strange behavior of the 
meter, but because you can REALLY tell that it's not in an EV.  Wow, that is 
a noisy ICE!

I suppose the meter question is peripherally related to EVs in the sense 
that a meter like this might be used in conversion EVs.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Watch Malfunctioning meter. on YouTube

2015-03-18 Thread Sean Korb via EV
I think it would be good to experiment to find the wavelengths involved.
There was a recent dustup about the Raspberry Pi II being camera shy.  It
was rebooting when photographed with a Xenon flash equipped camera.  It
turned out that chip U11 was photosensitive and the fix was to put a little
blue-tac on it... or keep it in an opaque plastic box if you were taking
photos.

cheers,
sean

On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 7:02 AM, Chris Meier via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 Is it a specific band of sunlight, such as IR, that causes the effect?

 On March 18, 2015 5:18:45 AM CDT, George Tyler via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 wrote:
 It is clearly the sun causing the problem. Some years ago I was
 designing
 RFID readers for cow tags, I found that the tags themselves were
 sensitive
 to sunlight! In fact, any chip that does not have sunlight positively
 excluded is this meter will probably have a chip bonded to the
 bottom of
 the pcb directly with a blob of sealer on the top.
 
 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence
 Rhodes via
 EV
 Sent: Wednesday, 18 March 2015 10:56 a.m.
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: [EVDL] Watch Malfunctioning meter. on YouTube
 
 Malfunctioning meter.: https://youtu.be/xNy8IOlRkII
 
 This is the correct url.  Lawrence Rhodes
 
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Re: [EVDL] Watch Malfunctioning meter. on YouTube

2015-03-18 Thread Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Yes it was in my veggie diesel.  I posted here because the guys on the diesel 
list are not as savvy as the EV list concerning electronics.  It's a neat gizmo 
that is easier to use than the meters in our cars as it needs no wiring.  
However my diesel is a solar vehicle of sorts.  I run it on vegetable oil which 
is grown by sun power.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Watch Malfunctioning meter. on YouTube

2015-03-17 Thread Michael Ross via EV
If it wasn't for the possibly coincidental sunlight, I would say it looks
like an electromechanical voltage regulator in action.  A regulator might
go as high as 14 and change, and when it stops charging the battery voltage
shows and is load dependent - not steady.

The change is kind of fast to be a thermal effect of the sunlight on
plastic (not very conductive).  Usually instrumentation amps for voltage
are not that susceptible to changes in ambient temperature.  How could be
simply the light intensity?  I don't have a feel for that.  You could mess
around with an ice pack or a bottle of chip freezer spray and see if the
change goes the other direction.

On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 Malfunctioning meter.: https://youtu.be/xNy8IOlRkII

 This is the correct url.  Lawrence Rhodes

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http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html

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*Warren Buffet*

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Re: [EVDL] Watch Malfunctioning meter. on YouTube

2015-03-17 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Cor van de Water wrote:

Electronic circuits (The silicon wafer that carries the transistors
and other circuitry) is affected in its operation by light.


That's a good possibility. Note that *any* semiconductor on the board 
(the micro, other chips, transistors, diodes, and even LEDs) might be 
the light-sensitive culprit.


I once had a board that used a common zener diode as its voltage 
reference for the power supply. The zener was in a clear glass case, 
typical of inexpensive 1N52xx family zeners. When sunlight hit that 
zener, its voltage changed. Since it was the power supply's reference, 
that changed the voltage of the power supply, throwing everything else off.


Older products used to use EPROMs. You were supposed to cover the window 
on top (which was there to erase the part if it ever needed to be 
reprogrammed). But people often left it open. Sunlight hitting the chip 
inside could not only erase the memory; but would cause errors long 
before the exposure was enough to actually erase it.


As someone else observed, it's also possible that the product has a 
light sensor to adjust the backlight or display brightness to compensate 
for bright ambient light. If the power supply is weak, then sunlight 
could command more brightness than the wimpy power supply could 
supply. I've seen this happen with the Cruising Equipment/Heart 
Interface/Xantrex E-meter/Link10 family of meters.

--
We cannot waste time. We can only waste ourselves.
-- George Matthew Adams
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeah...@earthlink.net
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Re: [EVDL] Watch Malfunctioning meter. on YouTube

2015-03-17 Thread Jan Steinman via EV
 From: Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 
 Electronic circuits (The silicon wafer that carries the transistors and other 
 circuitry)
 is affected in its operation by light.

Just use the Car Guys (from NPR) method: put some black electrical tape over 
the display. Problem solved! :-)

When I worked at Tektronix Laboratories in the 80s, we used to make crude 
cameras by unsoldering the metal lid off the ceramic RAM chips of the day, then 
focusing an image onto the chip and then demuxing the RAS and CAS info.

A lot of cheapo electronics put a chip directly on a board, with a drop of 
epoxy over it. Perhaps this unit missed the epoxy step. Take it back for a 
refund.

 Ants are so much like human beings as to be an embarrassment. They farm 
fungi, raise aphids as livestock, launch armies into wars, use chemical sprays 
to alarm and confuse enemies, capture slaves, engage in child labor, exchange 
information ceaselessly. They do everything but watch television. -- Lewis 
Thomas
 Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op 

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Re: [EVDL] Watch Malfunctioning meter. on YouTube

2015-03-17 Thread Lawrence Rhodes via EV
I suspect some sort of feedback via the LCD panel caused by sunlight.  Using 
Ohm's law might shed some light...I don't know how though.  Lawrence Rhodes



 From: Michael Ross michael.e.r...@gmail.com
To: Lawrence Rhodes primobass...@sbcglobal.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List ev@lists.evdl.org 
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Watch Malfunctioning meter. on YouTube
 


If it wasn't for the possibly coincidental sunlight, I would say it looks like 
an electromechanical voltage regulator in action.  A regulator might go as 
high as 14 and change, and when it stops charging the battery voltage shows 
and is load dependent - not steady.


The change is kind of fast to be a thermal effect of the sunlight on plastic 
(not very conductive).  Usually instrumentation amps for voltage are not that 
susceptible to changes in ambient temperature.  How could be simply the light 
intensity?  I don't have a feel for that.  You could mess around with an ice 
pack or a bottle of chip freezer spray and see if the change goes the other 
direction.





On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
wrote:

Malfunctioning meter.: https://youtu.be/xNy8IOlRkII

This is the correct url.  Lawrence Rhodes

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To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
Warren Buffet


Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824 Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell


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Re: [EVDL] Watch Malfunctioning meter. on YouTube

2015-03-17 Thread Mark Grasser via EV
I would suspect that sunlight on the display raises the current draw of the
display. This current draw is on the 5 volt regulator of the entire meter.
Being an inexpensive meter the 5 volt regulator is also the reference
voltage for the meter. Current goes up, reference voltage goes down.
Reference voltage goes down and the reading goes up. 



Sincerely,
Mark Grasser -
 

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water
via EV
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 7:22 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Watch Malfunctioning meter. on YouTube

Electronic circuits (The silicon wafer that carries the transistors and
other circuitry) is affected in its operation by light. Similar to a solar
cell generating current when hit by photons, also a slice of silicon for a
transistor or other electronic component will start generating a small
current under light, so it is a sign that the actual chip of the meter,
which normally is potted in a black blob for this reason, is not completely
potted and is receiving enough light to be affected by the (stray) light
falling on it.
It is the electronics that is affected by light (photons), not the LCD or
the heat.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this
message is prohibited.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via
EV
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 3:33 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Watch Malfunctioning meter. on YouTube

I suspect some sort of feedback via the LCD panel caused by sunlight.  Using
Ohm's law might shed some light...I don't know how though.  Lawrence Rhodes



 From: Michael Ross michael.e.r...@gmail.com
To: Lawrence Rhodes primobass...@sbcglobal.net; Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Watch Malfunctioning meter. on YouTube
 


If it wasn't for the possibly coincidental sunlight, I would say it looks
like an electromechanical voltage regulator in action.  A regulator might go
as high as 14 and change, and when it stops charging the battery voltage
shows and is load dependent - not steady.


The change is kind of fast to be a thermal effect of the sunlight on
plastic (not very conductive).  Usually instrumentation amps for voltage are
not that susceptible to changes in ambient temperature.  How could be simply
the light intensity?  I don't have a feel for that.  You could mess around
with an ice pack or a bottle of chip freezer spray and see if the change
goes the other direction.





On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

Malfunctioning meter.: https://youtu.be/xNy8IOlRkII

This is the correct url.  Lawrence Rhodes

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--

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
Warren Buffet


Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824 Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell


michael.e.r...@gmail.com






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Re: [EVDL] Watch Malfunctioning meter. on YouTube

2015-03-17 Thread Cor van de Water via EV
Electronic circuits (The silicon wafer that carries the transistors and other 
circuitry)
is affected in its operation by light. Similar to a solar cell generating 
current when hit
by photons, also a slice of silicon for a transistor or other electronic 
component will start
generating a small current under light, so it is a sign that the actual chip of 
the meter,
which normally is potted in a black blob for this reason, is not completely 
potted and is receiving
enough light to be affected by the (stray) light falling on it.
It is the electronics that is affected by light (photons), not the LCD or the 
heat.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626  Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130  private: cvandewater.info
www.proxim.com


This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 3:33 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Watch Malfunctioning meter. on YouTube

I suspect some sort of feedback via the LCD panel caused by sunlight.  Using 
Ohm's law might shed some light...I don't know how though.  Lawrence Rhodes



 From: Michael Ross michael.e.r...@gmail.com
To: Lawrence Rhodes primobass...@sbcglobal.net; Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Watch Malfunctioning meter. on YouTube
 


If it wasn't for the possibly coincidental sunlight, I would say it looks like 
an electromechanical voltage regulator in action.  A regulator might go as 
high as 14 and change, and when it stops charging the battery voltage shows 
and is load dependent - not steady.


The change is kind of fast to be a thermal effect of the sunlight on plastic 
(not very conductive).  Usually instrumentation amps for voltage are not that 
susceptible to changes in ambient temperature.  How could be simply the light 
intensity?  I don't have a feel for that.  You could mess around with an ice 
pack or a bottle of chip freezer spray and see if the change goes the other 
direction.





On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org 
wrote:

Malfunctioning meter.: https://youtu.be/xNy8IOlRkII

This is the correct url.  Lawrence Rhodes

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--

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
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A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
Warren Buffet


Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824 Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell


michael.e.r...@gmail.com






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