My experience is that the Peukert Effect doesn’t come into play that much in
normal driving with my 180Ah LiFePO4 cells in a light vehicle. If your
battery capacity was such that normal discharge currents in your vehicle
were 2C or higher I assume it would. Although I have discharge currents
I agree - as I wrote in a post in the Peukert thread. I also agree most of
us quickly develop the ability to guesstimate our range better since we take
into account the final destination and elevation changes on the way. The
car manufacturers could do similar by giving you the option of entering
Dan,
Does the i-Miev have an Ah or Wh meter? Do you know how much energy per mile
the car uses at say 60 mph and 35 mph? I like the small size and weight,
just wish it had a 6.6kW charger and 22kWh pack.
--
View this message in context:
I've made many dozens of trips into the mountains in the last 5 years in my
ev, most of them 4500 ft up over the 8900 ft pass at Mt. Rose in the
Sierras. I've always found that as long as the trip is a closed loop (net
elevation gain zero), my energy/mile is about the same as traveling on level
The rule gets you in the ballpark. Rolling resistance and drag forces are
generally about equal at 35-40 mph for more blocky vehicles and around
45-50 mph for more aerodynamic ones, both depending on vehicle weight. The
rule can then be made to work by using a sliding scale in speed since it
John, what what was the truck's energy/mile with the sla batteries? Would be
nice to know how the two compare.
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Electric-F-250-new-pack-tests-tp4670889p4670912.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle
EVSE availability varies greatly with area of the country. I use public
EVSE's regularly and in the last few years have only had one time when one
was not available, and it was marked as unavailable due to construction on
the Chargepoint website. I replaced my PFC20 this year with an EMW 10kW
I think he meant what he said, as in shifting two periodic waveforms out of
phase.
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/National-Drive-Electric-Week-tp4671425p4671441.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
Jerry, do you have a source for the 7% number? I would like to have some data
on that. I've generally heard 20% - 30%. The only data I have is my car
with an ice got about 35 mpg, or ~960Wh/mile, and as an ev uses about 200
Wh/mile. If I guesstimate 80% efficient as an ev then it was about 17%
I have 132 60AH batteries in 2P66S. So I am going to call this 66 batteries
at 120AH. Specs call for 3.6 volts max, so 66 in serial is 237.7 volts. I
don't want to push them so I set the max voltage at 231volts charge which
brings me to approx 3.5 volts per battery. Now in real life once it
That's a big voltage drop. Even when I charge at 70A DC my DVM on the pack
terminals agrees to within a tenth of a volt with the voltage readout on the
charger taken at it's output. I would suspect a loose connection inside the
charger or at the charger leads on the pack.
--
View this message
Tesla's response:
Safety is Tesla’s top priority and it is a principle on which we refuse to
compromise under any circumstance. Mr. Rutman purchased a vehicle on the
salvage market that had been substantially damaged in a serious accident.
We have strong concerns about this car being safe for
Hi Roland,
I never thought I'd see you buy lithium-based cells. Lead acid seemed to
work very well for you...was it mainly to reduce weight?
David,
If you look at the discharge curve on the hybrid auto center site, max
voltage is 4.2V, the average cell voltage is around 3.7V to 3.8V, and
I've measured 50 - 55% of the vehicle kinetic energy back into the pack
during braking with only regen a number of times. The Tesla S seems to do a
bit better, with up to 70% back - the more aggressively you use it the more
you get back, but its not a huge effect. Dropping down from a summit I
/5% is roughly the amount of range extension that regen provides. It can
be more if you make very frequent stops (like a delivery vehicle), or
live in a very hilly area. Otherwise, you don't use the brakes enough to
get more than a few percent of the energy you're using to drive./
You don't have
My statement that it seems the Tesla S may get up to around 70% back was
based on the data from the Drag Times article. The mass of the S is around
2150 kg, so calculate its kinetic energy at 114 mph, or about 51 m/sec, and
take the ratio of the regen energy they reported, 0.6kWh, to that
/Typical AC motor is probably around 85% efficient so 15% = heat. 100 amps
at 150 volts = 15kw. 15% of 15kw =2.25 kw of heat./
That's a fair amount of heat if you live in CA, but not AK, and that's
assuming you can direct it to the cabin with 100% efficiency. Approaching
that would require
/“Then you are left with mass x acceleration, and frictional effects. Wind
and air drag is the predominant loss and speed related - hence the
wonderment about not much difference. Rolling resistance is not that big a
deal, comparatively; though you can certainly quibble over rough roads and
I looked at the effect of acceleration and deceleration rates on energy used
per acceleration-deceleration cycle a while back. To simplify the
calculation I assumed the same rate for acceleration and deceleration. You
do get more energy into the pack stopping faster with regen. For example,
at a
/The wind losses are proportional to the cube of *speed* period./
To clarify, the drag force is proportional to vehicle speed squared. Power,
or energy/time, is the product of this force and vehicle speed, so is
proportional to speed cubed. Then the work done per unit time against this
force is
/There's another aspect to this: how is the government to know how many
in-state miles you've driven? The only feasible way is with GPS trackers in
every car, something horrifically unconscionable. /
I don't see what is so horrific about this. A gps based system could report
only total miles
Nothing voodoo about it. Minimizing energy use and maximizing percent energy
regained with regen are two different things. I said you get more energy
back into the pack stopping faster with regen. Of course net energy use
increases with more stops/starts, but percentage energy regained with
A person's viewpoint on this and many other things depends on how risk averse
s/he is, and we all tend to think our level of risk aversion is just about
right and any that is quite different is unreasonable. We are also very
good at self-justifying our position by concocting different
There was quite a bit of discussion on this several years ago on the old
Yahoo Groups Thundersky site and others for the stated reason - to supply
drive/absorb regen current spikes. Also research done and papers written on
it in the EU. The conclusion was as David said, better to just add more
If you want something portable, might also consider the Openevse:
http://store.openevse.com/
Much less expensive than commercial ones, and several people here have been
using it for a couple years or so.
--
View this message in context:
/Nissan (like most big companies) suffers from Not Invented Here syndrome,
which
means they ignored EV history and experience and didn't provide battery
heaters. (One of my projects is to see if I can add them)./
Yeah, I don't understand the rationale for this, seems penny wise and pound
foolish.
I agree that the improvements in air source heat pumps over the last couple
decades, with operation down to as low as -25 F (albeit at low COP) has been
a game changer. For one thing, I think they have made ground source heat
pumps non-competitive due to their much higher cost. But I am not so
Nice! And it looks like (pg 18, installation manual) you can use the bypass
breakers in the GSLC to act as service disconnect if you use only one unit.
Really nice system!
--
View this message in context:
Cute vehicle!
You could easily meet your requirements converting it to electric. Direct
drive should work fine over this speed range, and you will require only
modest torque and power due to the light weight and relatively low desired
top speed. Aerodynamics will not affect performance that much
Building the EMW charger is certainly not for everyone, though I built one
sometime ago and it has worked flawlessly for well over one year and 200
charges now. Not one problem during that time (I had some during the build,
but mostly self-inflicted). It charges to the max V, transitions to CV,
This was posted on diyelectriccar on 1/6/12 by Jim Husted (in the first
sentence, the same refers to same as the 9 motor):
/The Warp11's are also subject to the same 170 volts maximum. Larger motor
but wound about the same I'd imagine. I've yet to have my face inside of a
Warp11 though so am just
It is possible to go all electric, even in MN, but it requires different
house construction. Bob Ramlow lives in Wisconsin and says his solar hot
water provides about 70% of his heating requirements. His book, Solar Hot
Water Heating, describes (among other systems) using solar hot water
Drivers clearly can opt out:
/In all likelihood, not all participating drivers will agree to delay
charging each time the system sends an alert — they could be on the road or
know they need a full charge soon. So BMW will tap a bank of used
electric-car batteries, located at the automaker’s
Yes, I would gladly participate also. As Cor said, it is mainly short bursts
of power not adding up to much energy per vehicle. As long as I can set a
don't go below SoC on the vehicle computer it would be fine. In fact it
would be an incentive to me when considering which manufactured ev to
I like that the article included this statement:
/Because of the inherent complexity of establishing universal values for
health and environment damages, Shindell doesn’t view his newly published
estimates as the last word in determining emissions’ social costs.
“There is room for ongoing
Perhaps you are thinking of Agni Motors, started by Cedric Lynch?
http://www.agnimotors.com/
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Feasibility-Converting-a-Subaru-Sambar-Micro-Van-to-Electric-tp4673884p4674178.html
Sent from the Electric
Per wheel? Are you planning to beat Mate Rimac's 1000+ HP car? The smallest,
the 250, would make your vehicle zip, with 118 ft-lb continuous, 184 ft-lb
peak torque, and 120 HP peak (350V). Yeah, I imagine they are expensive.
Then you need a controller that will supply that voltage and power,
One way to approach it would be to use a look up table of measured vehicle
energy per mile, and google maps (courtesy of USGS). The driver would be
required to enter their destination. Present location would be read from a
GPS. A proposed route map would appear on the screen, which the driver
/I honestly am not qualified to parse the linguistics of this. I will note
that the definitions I used, never talked about electrons in regard to the
electrodes; it talks about cation and anions. Not the same thing. THe
definitions of cathode and anode are related to cations and anions -
I was just pointing out that the anode, to which lithium ions diffuse during
charging, is graphite in the cells we use such as CALB, as well as in Leaf
and Volt cells. Dahn readily admits he is new to battery research and just
coming up to speed. Nice work though. It is also known that coatings
/I've found I like to drive it better than my Tesla; I use it for almost
all trips of less than 60 miles./
Now there is something I wouldn't have expected, even though I prefer an
iMiev size vehicle myself. They are great fun to zip around in imo,
especially in cities, and there is always a
That is how I’ve seen them referred to in articles I read.
In a zinc – copper voltaic cell electrons are produced by oxidation of zinc
at the /anode/ which is considered to be the /negative/ electrode since it
pushes electrons into the external circuit. The electrons flow through
the external
The anode is graphite, cathode is LiFePO4 for LFP cells.
I just heat mine to 65F while the car is parked at home similar to Rick.
Have almost the same range in winter as summer with the cabin heater off as
a result. This is the sixth winter for the car.
I think there is quite a lot known about
I should add that I assumed you would be satisfied with very slow
acceleration. If not, you will require a larger motor with more torque. To
give you a an idea of what is required...my car has about 1200 ft-lb torque
at the wheels in first gear (about 90 ft-lb motor torque) and accelerates at
6
Actually I think the flat V versus capacity of LFP is an asset. It is what
enables you to use Ah used, a nice stable, repeatable measurement, that
tracks Wh used quite well over most of the capacity of the pack (I've data
logged battery V and I using 1 sample/sec and compared them). I've used a
I think the ~70 Wh/lb is too low of specific energy for longer range ev's
David. The lithium cobalt chemistry used by Tesla is much higher, ~250 for
bare cells, and their battery pack is still ~1 ton. Would be nice to have
about twice the Tesla cell specific energy. But I agree the NiMH seems
http://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2015/Q1/new-processing-technology-converts-packing-peanuts-to-battery-components.html
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Packing-peanuts-make-batteries-tp4674434p4674464.html
Sent from the
Side reaction rates increase with temperature, but that is only part of the
story. The rates are even more dependent on cell voltage, and Dahn mentions
this:
*• The biggest factor is time spent at highest voltage.
o Longer is worse
o Most of the parasitic reactions happen
Thanks for the links. Nice to have them copied to one place so I can send
them to someone interested in a Leaf.
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Inexpensive-retiree-friendly-EV-tp4675387p4675412.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle
I agree with Jamie. There are obviously a great range of situations, but I
would guess his is more typical.Where I live people seem to roughly fall
into two categories: those who like evs but can't afford one, and those who
can afford an ev but don't want one. The former can only afford one
At over 4700 lb Tesla is hardly the benchmark for efficiency. My 2260 lb ev
5 1/2 year average energy use is 216 Wh/mile from the wall, with about 50%
travel on highways at 55 - 65 mph. Charger efficiency, measured several
times, is 0.91, so that's about 197 Wh/mile or 5.1 miles/kWh excluding
Larger diameter would be more efficient. If they don't need to carry much
weight you might look into using motorcycle tires which are narrower.
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Wheels-for-efficient-vehicle-tp4675604p4675607.html
The numbers you post for Tesla do not include charger losses, the 216 Wh/mile
does. The 196 Wh/mile number should be compared. Either way 216 or 196 is
far less energy/mile than a Tesla S uses, so more efficient at moving one
human around, which is the typical occupancy.
Maybe you are
Yes I agree that on average over different vehicle types the drag force
generally becomes larger than the rolling resistance force at around 45 mph.
The Tesla S is interesting in this regard though since it has very low Cd
and not that large of cross sectional area for such a massive vehicle.
Thanks Lee. The car is a 2001 Suzuki Swift, www.evalbum.com/3060
Yes it should have been 80% DOD. Thanks, I corrected it.
I keep the tires at about 36 psi (that's what the tire gauge says anyway).
Cd = 0.32 and rolling resistance plus brake drag = 0.014 gave best fit to
the roll down data,
Really? Why does this balancing of a 2 D projection work? The force per unit
area, or pressure, on a vehicle due to air drag depends on the projected
area of the vehicle with a normal anti-parallel to the air velocity vector.
It seems for a vehicle with fairly constant height as a function of
Nothing in his lab's list of peer-reviewed publications on this topic:
http://dailab.stanford.edu/pubs.htm
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-Aluminum-battery-from-Stanford-tp4674840p4674876.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle
Thank you for taking the time to give such a lengthy explanation MWM. I
understand your approach much better now, and think you will learn a lot and
have some fun. You may make your goal in range at lower speeds with such a
light vehicle. I have a 2260 lb Suzuki Swift and a spreadsheet that
/This testing is not much value when trying to compare cells ability to last
a long time./
That wasn't the point. He was just showing that the CC/CV transition
voltage in the manufacturer charging spec is for the charging current in the
spec, and you can go higher without causing immediate damage
/I was shocked when I heard that was in the manual. Then by fortune one
day on a plane trip the guy sitting next to me noticed all my EV magazines
etc, and admitted he was a battery engineer for Nissan./ Nice to know.
--
View this message in context:
The spec for CALB cells is CC to 3.6V per cell then CV to C/20. When I do a
full charge I charge my 180 Ah CALB SE cells at CC to 3.53V per cell
average, or about 127V pack voltage, then the charger holds a pack V of
about 126V to C/20, or 9A, and terminates. After several hours at rest the
pack
Cor, yes 20% of 4 mA would of course be 0.8 mA...I also wrote the pack
voltage is the same after sitting for two weeks, but I meant to write
Ah...sigh. When you consider that I usually charge every or every other day
those small drains don't matter since I'm pulling 70 - 120 Ah out over that
Yes, I agree with pavement the deformation is elastic so no net energy
transfer. I don't think you need larger displacement though. The
electromagnetic force is very strong so you can get significant energy from
small displacement. But of course how much will depend on the actual
mechanism the
You are putting energy into the pavement when you walk pavegen tiles or not.
You apply force to the pavement when you transfer your body weight from one
foot to the foot hitting the pavement. The bonds in the molecules making up
the pavement supply a reaction force by stretching ever so slightly,
/It's irrelevant to study the amount of displacement. The important fact is
that what ever energy is produced came from a person's expenditure! I
think, other than for a novel experience, most people would abhor trudging
around on energy sucking pavement./
Abhor it? Really? I can see abhoring
/That is a reason I don't use a cell level BMS. With a cell level BMS like
the miniBMS there is a constant drain on the cells running the BMS boards
and it is nearly impossible to make sure that each board uses the _exact_
same current regardless of voltage in the cell./
The constant drain is
Yes they are inefficient. The typical number I've seen is around 20%. This,
and the fact that an ice continues running while stopped at a traffic light
but an electric motor doesn't (unless the vehicle has an automatic
transmission) are of course the main reasons for reduced energy use by EVs,
Does anyone know how EPA estimates miles per kWh? I am familiar with their
standard test cycle conditions. Do they just quote the miles per unit
energy based on what they use during that test? I ask because if I use the
D.O.E. conversion of 33.7 kWh per gallon of gas my car has averaged about
Yes, I am aware of that. For about 5 years I have been advising people not
to charge to over around 3.45V which is about where the exponential increase
in the curve starts at typical charge currents. I published a number of
cell measurements and charge curves around that time showing there is
“/The things that we like about EVs - the smoothness, the silence, the
instant torque, zero emissions, refuel at home - just don't seem to be
all that important to most people. Besides, in the last 20-30 years, ICEVs
have gotten better at a lot of these things./”
They sure have! Ice powered
Yes, I am familiar with some of those guys from endless sphere, but they are
young males. You remember what that was like right? Completely
invulnerable, more testosterone than brains, get a good laugh out of almost
burning the house down...besides they likely all rent and they are using
small
/So again, anyone who buys, or sells, or promtes EV's with the idea of
public charging for anything other than an emergency simply doesn't get it.
(Generally... there are always exceptions)./
This hasn't been my experience for the last 5 years of using public EVSEs,
nor anyone in the local ev
That is my experience too Peri, most people haven't thought much about it.
They have very little awareness of evs, and the general perception is they
cost more, take a long time to refuel, have less places to refuel, and don't
go far enough to be useful except for in town. All pretty much true I
An induction motor generates whenever the angular velocity of the rotor is
greater than the angular velocity of the mmf (magnetomotive force) wave of
the stator, so in that sense it is automatic. In a traction application
these relative velocities are determined by the angular velocity of the
I used the standard method of applying the Peukert equation to calculate the
exponent based on the manufacturers published 20hr and 5hr rates for the
Trojans. If the 20hr rate is A, the 5 hr rate is B, the capacity at rate
A is CA, and the capacity at rate B is CB then:
exponent = [log (B/A)/log
Well, I'd go by the test data, though there will be some variability in
results. May also be some variability in what different websites give for
the 20 and 5 hr rates.
--
View this message in context:
Are you certain they are not talking about a privately owned parking garage?
Some of these have installed EVSEs. That would make more sense.
--
View this message in context:
I did a graph of gc battery capacity versus discharge current using the
Peukert equation a number of years ago using the 20 hr and 10 or 5 hr rates.
It gave these capacities at 100A discharge current:
T145 (6V, 260Ah): 188Ah
T125 (6V, 240Ah): 165Ah
T105 (6V, 225Ah): 164Ah
T1275 (12V, 150Ah):
Wow, 35 years, you have perseverance! I generally get 3 questions...how far?
how fast? how much? They gasp, shake their head and leave after my response
to the third one ($20k). They were looking for a cheap way to avoid paying
for gas, thinking maybe $500.00 to convert a car I guess. I also
/You may power your EV from the dirty power in your state, but studies in
2012 showed about 50% of EV owners charged their cars from 100% renewable
solar or wind./
I didn't say I powered my EV from the grid, you just made that assumption
and acted on it without bothering to check if it was
Yes, the sheet steel shroud adds weight, but not near as much as the
generator itself, which the car engine doesn't have. I don't know the
weight of the Prius powertrain. Is it capable of the 50kW continuous
estimated for the full size pickup? PM would definitely increase the
continuous power
Joe, thank you for taking the time to make this post. I've not driven the
i-MiEV, but like its looks and prefer small cars due to their greater energy
efficiency and great maneuverability. As far as plastic, almost all cars
have had mainly plastic interiors for years. I do wish they had given
You will need to add the weight of the generator to estimate energy/mile with
it on board. Here is a 48kW Generac at home depot, with weight of 2200 lb:
If so, he is fooling the locals too:
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2015/s4342220.htm
He seems to be on the board of SAE Australasia as claimed:
http://www.saea.com.au/board-and-structure
--
View this message in context:
What portion of cells in the pack are at significantly higer SoC? I assume
it is a small portion, or you would be individually charging the smaller
portion of cells which are at lower SoC. I've done both. For higher SoC
cells I connect a 3 Ohm 10W resistor between the terminals with spring clips
/...you could exclude $ 125 per person per month for "combined commuter
highway
transportation and transit passes"./
David,
Apparently this was enacted years ago to encourage carpooling in vehicles
such as vans, and use of mass transit.
--
View this message in context:
"If you figure 3 miles per kWh for a typical EV, you'll recharge at about 10
MPH from a standard 110 circuit."
Charging at 3.3kW would indeed permit about 10 mph charging rate but I think
you won't find many 120V rms outlets that will supply the required 28A rms
current or 30A at 110V. You may
/A motorized bicycle is also defined as a vehicle with pedals and an
electric motor (not more than 1,000 watts) which cannot be driven at speeds
of more than 20 mph on level ground even if assisted by human power./
I regularly go over 20 mph on level ground on my non-electric road bike.
The reg
Eldis (diyelectriccar user name) did not reverse engineer the Tesla
controller. He designed and built his own controller to replace the motor
controller in any electric car inverter, hence the name UMC, universal motor
controller. He is using it to run a Tesla motor, others working with him
are
/I was a little offended when Bruce implied Tesla owners are snobby. I am
certainly not nor or other Tesla owning EVDLers.../
A few years ago I was participating in the local club's display of EVs. I
stepped up to two Tesla S owners talking just as one asked the other if he
had ever dropped down
Yes, it is good that EVs are becoming commonplace. The last couple years
people have mainly gathered around the Teslas at E day and other EVents, not
only because they are a nice vehicle, but because of the hype about them.
I never was a very active EVangelist, my primary motivation was to
Like most ambiguous topics, this one has plenty room for people to
self-justify their position and scrutinize and find a way to discount others
positions, so agreement is difficult to reach. The CA DMV gives legal
guidance in that state, but it is just what the humans who created it came
up with
Ahh, self-justification by treating the extreme case - old, feeble people
being run down by speeding reckless bicyclists - as the typical case. I
disagree that only bicyclists should be responsible and considerate. I
think pedestrians should be too, except of course for the those who are not
What a great company, almost no real assets, and almost all value accruing to
the officers of the company and the stockholders! A wall street dream! The
head of Uber kind of reminds me of Tom Sawyer convincing other kids to pay
him to paint the fence by presenting it as fun. What about those
The people I know with Leafs have similar experience as Ed, greater range if
they drive around town at lower speeds than if they drive on the highway at
higher speeds. My experience with my conversion is the same. I
consistently use about 240 Wh/mile at 60 mph and about 180 Wh/mile at 35
mph,
I live in a small city, so most "city" driving here would more likely be what
you call suburban driving, with maybe 3 to 8 stops per mile.
Another comparison: I noticed that on a 32 mile one way trip on an
interstate I used much lower energy per mile compared to normal when there
was
I have a bit over 20 patents, and my experience is pretty much in agreement
with Lee's assessment. The USPTO only does a cursory search of prior art.
As a result, a patent is just a ticket to permit litigation. Whether or not
it is valid is not determined until the litigation is over. Also,
The article says Leaf owners drove more ELECTRIC miles, Volt owners drove
more miles overall. This could be the case for example if all Volt owners
do not keep their battery packs charged up to maximize their electric miles,
and/or regularly take longer trips where the vehicle runs much of the
Thanks for posting the reply Bruce. Having 200 mile range evs plus
convenient L3 charging should encourage rapid expansion of evs. Also good
to see they include one L2 at each site, for those older evs or conversions
that can't use L3, or for those who just want to add a little charge.
--
View
Heat pump performance has improved a lot over the last couple decades mainly
due to new refrigerants that permit operation to below zero F temperatures.
The Fujitsu models for example operate down to -5F:
1 - 100 of 145 matches
Mail list logo
