Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Yes, but emissions are lower.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 15, 2017, at 3:51 PM, Tom Keenan via EV  wrote:
> 
> Way OT here, but months ago we drove a rental truck across country.  It was 
> an E85 flex-fuel rig.  We stopped someplace in Corn Country and filled up on 
> ‘cheap fuel’ (E85) instead of regular E10 because it happened to be 
> available. Instead of getting 10-11 mpg as averaged for the first part of the 
> trip using E10, the mileage dropped to 6-7 mpg - a drop of about 25% in mpg 
> over a relatively flat section of interstate. Came back up to 11 mpg or so 
> once we filled back up with E10 at the next fill up (which came quickly after 
> fewer miles per tank using E85).
> This reflects very well the known difference in energy content between 
> ethanol and gasoline.  Never bought E85 again, as it was very slow to 
> accelerate the moving truck to freeway speed using that fuel, and zero 
> advantage in cost/mile. 
> At the prices mentioned below ($2.45/$3.01), the energy content is almost 
> exactly the same per $ for E85 and E10 (‘regular gas’). In other words, as we 
> found out during our real-world example, if you were to place either in your 
> flex-fuel vehicle, they would have virtually the same cost-per-mile. So, one 
> is not ‘way cheaper than the other’ when considering actual miles per $.  
> Performance wise, I’d consider E85 inferior to E10 based on around 250 miles 
> of suffering with it, and wondering why the gas needle was dropping so 
> quickly. 
> 
> Tom Keenan
> 
>> On Nov 15, 2017, at 3:27 PM, Jorg Brown via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 3:51 PM, Cor van de Water via EV 
>> wrote:
>>> Flex-fuel vehicles are notorious for *never* running on anything but
>>> regular gas,
>> 
>> What??  That's bonkers.  At least where I live, E85 is way cheaper ( see
>> https://goo.gl/maps/FCHNRzSm7TF2 ) - $2.45 per gallon versus $3.01 per
>> gallon for regular unleaded.
>> 
>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 11:00 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> I don't get why people get so excited about PIHs.
>>> 
>>> California data shows a big problem with folks not even bothering to
>>> charge them.
>> 
>> Really?  I was just reading
>> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1102004_why-isnt-the-2016-chevy-volt-a-flex-fuel-plug-in-hybrid-that-can-use-e85-ethanol
>> and it said:
>> 
>>> And Chevrolet's data on driving and usage patterns for more than
>>> 80,000 Volts indicates that nine out of every 10 trips taken in the
>>> longer-range 2016 Volt will be powered exclusively from grid
>>> electricity used to recharge the battery.
>> -- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

But does it really matter?  He rarely uses the ICE.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 15, 2017, at 11:26 AM, Rush Dougherty via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> 
> And you call that good?
> 
> My 2000 Insight (the first hybrid introduced into America) gets at least 40-45
> mpg with a bad battery pack and missing its front bumper and driver side
> fender...
> 
> Rush Dougherty
> Tucson AZ 85719
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Robert Bruninga via
> EV
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 10:24 AM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Cc: Robert Bruninga; EVDL Administrator
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK
> writer's EV-
>> ignorance dogmatized)
>> 
>> Round trip was 50 so 33 MPG or so...
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
> via EV
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 10:30 AM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Cc: EVDL Administrator
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK
> writer's EV-
>> ignorance dogmatized)
>> 
>>> On 14 Nov 2017 at 18:39, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>>> 
>>> today, I had to go to a meeting 25 miles away ...  I used another
>>> gallon and a half of gas ...
>> 
>> Youi got 16.7mpg with a Volt in ICEV mode?  That isn't a typo?
>> 
>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>> EVDL Administrator
>> 
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
>> Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
>> =
> = = = = = = = = =
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>> send
> a private
>> message, please obtain my email address from the webpage
> http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)

[Tom Keenan via EV]

Way OT here, but months ago we drove a rental truck across country.  It was an 
E85 flex-fuel rig.  We stopped someplace in Corn Country and filled up on 
‘cheap fuel’ (E85) instead of regular E10 because it happened to be available. 
Instead of getting 10-11 mpg as averaged for the first part of the trip using 
E10, the mileage dropped to 6-7 mpg - a drop of about 25% in mpg over a 
relatively flat section of interstate. Came back up to 11 mpg or so once we 
filled back up with E10 at the next fill up (which came quickly after fewer 
miles per tank using E85).
This reflects very well the known difference in energy content between ethanol 
and gasoline.  Never bought E85 again, as it was very slow to accelerate the 
moving truck to freeway speed using that fuel, and zero advantage in cost/mile. 
At the prices mentioned below ($2.45/$3.01), the energy content is almost 
exactly the same per $ for E85 and E10 (‘regular gas’). In other words, as we 
found out during our real-world example, if you were to place either in your 
flex-fuel vehicle, they would have virtually the same cost-per-mile. So, one is 
not ‘way cheaper than the other’ when considering actual miles per $.  
Performance wise, I’d consider E85 inferior to E10 based on around 250 miles of 
suffering with it, and wondering why the gas needle was dropping so quickly. 

Tom Keenan

> On Nov 15, 2017, at 3:27 PM, Jorg Brown via EV  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 3:51 PM, Cor van de Water via EV 
> wrote:
>> Flex-fuel vehicles are notorious for *never* running on anything but
>> regular gas,
> 
> What??  That's bonkers.  At least where I live, E85 is way cheaper ( see
> https://goo.gl/maps/FCHNRzSm7TF2 ) - $2.45 per gallon versus $3.01 per
> gallon for regular unleaded.
> 
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 11:00 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
> wrote:
> 
>> I don't get why people get so excited about PIHs.
>> 
>> California data shows a big problem with folks not even bothering to
>> charge them.
>> 
> 
> Really?  I was just reading
> https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1102004_why-isnt-the-2016-chevy-volt-a-flex-fuel-plug-in-hybrid-that-can-use-e85-ethanol
> and it said:
> 
>> And Chevrolet's data on driving and usage patterns for more than
>> 80,000 Volts indicates that nine out of every 10 trips taken in the
>> longer-range 2016 Volt will be powered exclusively from grid
>> electricity used to recharge the battery.
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: 
> 
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> 

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Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)

[Jorg Brown via EV]

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 3:51 PM, Cor van de Water via EV 
 wrote:
> Flex-fuel vehicles are notorious for *never* running on anything but
> regular gas,

What??  That's bonkers.  At least where I live, E85 is way cheaper ( see
https://goo.gl/maps/FCHNRzSm7TF2 ) - $2.45 per gallon versus $3.01 per
gallon for regular unleaded.

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 11:00 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
 wrote:

> I don't get why people get so excited about PIHs.
>
> California data shows a big problem with folks not even bothering to
> charge them.
>

Really?  I was just reading
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1102004_why-isnt-the-2016-chevy-volt-a-flex-fuel-plug-in-hybrid-that-can-use-e85-ethanol
and it said:

> And Chevrolet's data on driving and usage patterns for more than
> 80,000 Volts indicates that nine out of every 10 trips taken in the
> longer-range 2016 Volt will be powered exclusively from grid
> electricity used to recharge the battery.
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

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Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

A Tesla would do that. So could any of the FCEVs. Whether the latter were 
feasible would depend on where you live.

I also wonder if incentives for PIHs are impacting the offerings of automakers. 
If there were no PIH incentives, would we have longer range pure EVs?  I don't 
know the answer.


Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 15, 2017, at 7:01 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:
> 
> Nope, the Volt with its 50 mile EV range and 350 mile overall range is
> ideal for me.  My daily use is about 32 miles so I drive exclusively on
> electricity from my home solar.  Yet we can go to gramma's at the drop of
> a hat which is 150 miles away too.  All for only the $12k like-new
> purchase price for the 3 year old off-lease VOLT.  Ain't no BEV that could
> do that.
> 
> Bob
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Mark Abramowitz [mailto:ma...@enviropolicy.com]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK
> writer's EV-ignorance
> 
> Well, you could have used something else zero emission if you had it
> instead of your PIH (and create a bit less pollution than a full ICE), but
> again, your use is unfortunately not typical.
> 
>>> On Nov 14, 2017, at 3:39 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Ive only used 7 gallons of gas in my PIH Volt.  But today, I had to go
>> to a meeting 25 miles away.  No problem.  I just drove.  Gas engine
>> kicked in as needed.  Yes, I used another gallon and a half of gas,
>> but then if I had not had a PIH, I could not have gone to the meeting.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>>> I don't get why people get so excited about PIHs.
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Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

*Today* you are absolutely correct. We'll see where we are "tomorrow."

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 15, 2017, at 9:07 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:

>> A Tesla would do that.
> 
> Not for the $12k I paid for my 2013 volt.
> 
>> So could any of the FCEVs. Whether the latter were feasible would depend
> on where you live.
> 
> Not for the $12k I paid for my 2013 Volt.
> 
> And the FCEV would be a royal pain in the tusch because It has to be
> refuled somewhere probably no closer than 50 m iles form my house, whereas
> the PIH plugs in at home overnight and is full every morning with only 10
> seconds of my time.  AND on the rare trip to grammas, I can refuel it on
> almost any street corner.
> 
>> I also wonder if incentives for PIHs are impacting the offerings of
> automakers.
>> If there were no PIH incentives, would we have longer range pure EVs?  I
> don't know the answer.
> 
> I do.  Even at the future expected low cost of batteries, it makes no
> sense to haul around a 4-times heavier battery that adds $20,000 to the
> cost of the car everyday forever that is only used once a month and takes
> 30 minutes to charge that one time a month you need it on the road,
> compared to carrying around an extra 600 lbs of gas engine that can be
> refuled anywhere, anytime in 5 minutes.
> 
> I think PIH's are hear to stay for the single car owner who does mostly
> local travel but also needs the car for the occasional trip.  It makes no
> economic sense to buy a 250 mile BEV and then rarely use it while still
> suffering its limitations.
> 
> Bob, WB4aPR
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>>> On Nov 15, 2017, at 7:01 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Nope, the Volt with its 50 mile EV range and 350 mile overall range is
>> ideal for me.  My daily use is about 32 miles so I drive exclusively
>> on electricity from my home solar.  Yet we can go to gramma's at the
>> drop of a hat which is 150 miles away too.  All for only the $12k
>> like-new purchase price for the 3 year old off-lease VOLT.  Ain't no
>> BEV that could do that.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Mark Abramowitz [mailto:ma...@enviropolicy.com]
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions>
>> (AK writer's EV-ignorance
>> 
>> Well, you could have used something else zero emission if you had it
>> instead of your PIH (and create a bit less pollution than a full ICE),
>> but again, your use is unfortunately not typical.
>> 
 On Nov 14, 2017, at 3:39 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV
 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Ive only used 7 gallons of gas in my PIH Volt.  But today, I had to
>>> go to a meeting 25 miles away.  No problem.  I just drove.  Gas
>>> engine kicked in as needed.  Yes, I used another gallon and a half of
>>> gas, but then if I had not had a PIH, I could not have gone to the
> meeting.
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
 I don't get why people get so excited about PIHs.
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Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)

[Rush Dougherty via EV]

And you call that good?

My 2000 Insight (the first hybrid introduced into America) gets at least 40-45
mpg with a bad battery pack and missing its front bumper and driver side
fender...

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719

> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Robert Bruninga via
EV
> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 10:24 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: Robert Bruninga; EVDL Administrator
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK
writer's EV-
> ignorance dogmatized)
>
> Round trip was 50 so 33 MPG or so...
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
via EV
> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 10:30 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: EVDL Administrator
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK
writer's EV-
> ignorance dogmatized)
>
> On 14 Nov 2017 at 18:39, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>
> > today, I had to go to a meeting 25 miles away ...  I used another
> > gallon and a half of gas ...
>
> Youi got 16.7mpg with a Volt in ICEV mode?  That isn't a typo?
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
> Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.  To send
a private
> message, please obtain my email address from the webpage
http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Round trip was 50 so 33 MPG or so...

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL
Administrator via EV
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 10:30 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK
writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)

On 14 Nov 2017 at 18:39, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

> today, I had to go to a meeting 25 miles away ...  I used another
> gallon and a half of gas ...

Youi got 16.7mpg with a Volt in ICEV mode?  That isn't a typo?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.  To
send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage
http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> A Tesla would do that.

Not for the $12k I paid for my 2013 volt.

> So could any of the FCEVs. Whether the latter were feasible would depend
on where you live.

Not for the $12k I paid for my 2013 Volt.

And the FCEV would be a royal pain in the tusch because It has to be
refuled somewhere probably no closer than 50 m iles form my house, whereas
the PIH plugs in at home overnight and is full every morning with only 10
seconds of my time.  AND on the rare trip to grammas, I can refuel it on
almost any street corner.

> I also wonder if incentives for PIHs are impacting the offerings of
automakers.
> If there were no PIH incentives, would we have longer range pure EVs?  I
don't know the answer.

I do.  Even at the future expected low cost of batteries, it makes no
sense to haul around a 4-times heavier battery that adds $20,000 to the
cost of the car everyday forever that is only used once a month and takes
30 minutes to charge that one time a month you need it on the road,
compared to carrying around an extra 600 lbs of gas engine that can be
refuled anywhere, anytime in 5 minutes.

I think PIH's are hear to stay for the single car owner who does mostly
local travel but also needs the car for the occasional trip.  It makes no
economic sense to buy a 250 mile BEV and then rarely use it while still
suffering its limitations.

Bob, WB4aPR

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 15, 2017, at 7:01 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:
>
> Nope, the Volt with its 50 mile EV range and 350 mile overall range is
> ideal for me.  My daily use is about 32 miles so I drive exclusively
> on electricity from my home solar.  Yet we can go to gramma's at the
> drop of a hat which is 150 miles away too.  All for only the $12k
> like-new purchase price for the 3 year old off-lease VOLT.  Ain't no
> BEV that could do that.
>
> Bob
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Mark Abramowitz [mailto:ma...@enviropolicy.com]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions>
> (AK writer's EV-ignorance
>
> Well, you could have used something else zero emission if you had it
> instead of your PIH (and create a bit less pollution than a full ICE),
> but again, your use is unfortunately not typical.
>
>>> On Nov 14, 2017, at 3:39 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV
>>> 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Ive only used 7 gallons of gas in my PIH Volt.  But today, I had to
>> go to a meeting 25 miles away.  No problem.  I just drove.  Gas
>> engine kicked in as needed.  Yes, I used another gallon and a half of
>> gas, but then if I had not had a PIH, I could not have gone to the
meeting.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>>> I don't get why people get so excited about PIHs.
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Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 14 Nov 2017 at 18:39, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

> today, I had to go to a meeting 25 miles away ...  I used another
> gallon and a half of gas ... 

Youi got 16.7mpg with a Volt in ICEV mode?  That isn't a typo?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Nope, the Volt with its 50 mile EV range and 350 mile overall range is
ideal for me.  My daily use is about 32 miles so I drive exclusively on
electricity from my home solar.  Yet we can go to gramma's at the drop of
a hat which is 150 miles away too.  All for only the $12k like-new
purchase price for the 3 year old off-lease VOLT.  Ain't no BEV that could
do that.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: Mark Abramowitz [mailto:ma...@enviropolicy.com]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK
writer's EV-ignorance

Well, you could have used something else zero emission if you had it
instead of your PIH (and create a bit less pollution than a full ICE), but
again, your use is unfortunately not typical.

> On Nov 14, 2017, at 3:39 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:
>
> Ive only used 7 gallons of gas in my PIH Volt.  But today, I had to go
> to a meeting 25 miles away.  No problem.  I just drove.  Gas engine
> kicked in as needed.  Yes, I used another gallon and a half of gas,
> but then if I had not had a PIH, I could not have gone to the meeting.
>
> Bob
>
>  -Original Message-
> Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>> I don't get why people get so excited about PIHs.
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Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Your use is hoped for, but not typical, though.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 14, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Bill Woodcock via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 14, 2017, at 3:51 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Flex-fuel vehicles are notorious for *never* running on anything but
>> regular gas,
>> while giving tax breaks to corporations for the remote possibility that
>> such a
>> vehicle *could*, potentially, be run on Ethanol or similar alternative
>> fuel…
> 
> I dunno…  I’ve got a C-Max with about 15,000 miles on it, and it’s still on 
> its fifth tank of gas.
> 
>-Bill
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

I would have thought that people would have used it like you do, but sadly, the 
data shows otherwise.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 14, 2017, at 3:26 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>> I don't get why people get so excited about PIHs.
> 
> I own a PIH (a 2014 Prius with the plug-in). They aren't sold in the midwest; 
> I had to go all the way to Massachusetts to buy it.
> 
> It was worth it because we live in a small town in the middle of Minnesota. 
> The range is sufficient to drive anywhere we normally go and back as an EV, 
> using no gas at all. Even when we average in the occasional longer trips, the 
> overall average fuel economy has been running 157 mpg.
> 
> But I can see where some people would buy it just for a tax credit or to use 
> HOV lanes and such. They have no intention of ever plugging it in. The same 
> sort of thing happens with flex-fuel vehicles.
> 
> -- 
> There is a computer disease that anybody who works with computers knows
> about. It's very serious, and interferes completely with your work. The
> trouble with computers is that you 'play' with them! (Richard Feynman)
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Well, you could have used something else zero emission if you had it instead of 
your PIH (and create a bit less pollution than a full ICE), but again, your use 
is unfortunately not typical.  

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 14, 2017, at 3:39 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> 
> Ive only used 7 gallons of gas in my PIH Volt.  But today, I had to go to
> a meeting 25 miles away.  No problem.  I just drove.  Gas engine kicked in
> as needed.  Yes, I used another gallon and a half of gas, but then if I
> had not had a PIH, I could not have gone to the meeting.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2017 6:26 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: Lee Hart
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK
> writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)
> 
> Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>> I don't get why people get so excited about PIHs.
> 
> I own a PIH (a 2014 Prius with the plug-in). They aren't sold in the
> midwest; I had to go all the way to Massachusetts to buy it.
> 
> It was worth it because we live in a small town in the middle of
> Minnesota. The range is sufficient to drive anywhere we normally go and
> back as an EV, using no gas at all. Even when we average in the occasional
> longer trips, the overall average fuel economy has been running 157 mpg.
> 
> But I can see where some people would buy it just for a tax credit or to
> use HOV lanes and such. They have no intention of ever plugging it in.
> The same sort of thing happens with flex-fuel vehicles.
> 
> --
> There is a computer disease that anybody who works with computers knows
> about. It's very serious, and interferes completely with your work. The
> trouble with computers is that you 'play' with them! (Richard Feynman)
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)

[Bill Woodcock via EV]

> On Nov 14, 2017, at 3:51 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> Flex-fuel vehicles are notorious for *never* running on anything but
> regular gas,
> while giving tax breaks to corporations for the remote possibility that
> such a
> vehicle *could*, potentially, be run on Ethanol or similar alternative
> fuel…

I dunno…  I’ve got a C-Max with about 15,000 miles on it, and it’s still on its 
fifth tank of gas.

-Bill




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Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Flex-fuel vehicles are notorious for *never* running on anything but
regular gas,
while giving tax breaks to corporations for the remote possibility that
such a
vehicle *could*, potentially, be run on Ethanol or similar alternative
fuel...

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2017 3:26 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Lee Hart
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK
writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)

Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
> I don't get why people get so excited about PIHs.

I own a PIH (a 2014 Prius with the plug-in). They aren't sold in the
midwest; I had to go all the way to Massachusetts to buy it.

It was worth it because we live in a small town in the middle of
Minnesota. The range is sufficient to drive anywhere we normally go and
back as an EV, using no gas at all. Even when we average in the
occasional longer trips, the overall average fuel economy has been
running 157 mpg.

But I can see where some people would buy it just for a tax credit or to
use HOV lanes and such. They have no intention of ever plugging it in. 
The same sort of thing happens with flex-fuel vehicles.

--
There is a computer disease that anybody who works with computers knows
about. It's very serious, and interferes completely with your work. The
trouble with computers is that you 'play' with them! (Richard Feynman)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Ive only used 7 gallons of gas in my PIH Volt.  But today, I had to go to
a meeting 25 miles away.  No problem.  I just drove.  Gas engine kicked in
as needed.  Yes, I used another gallon and a half of gas, but then if I
had not had a PIH, I could not have gone to the meeting.

Bob


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2017 6:26 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Lee Hart
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK
writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)

Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
> I don't get why people get so excited about PIHs.

I own a PIH (a 2014 Prius with the plug-in). They aren't sold in the
midwest; I had to go all the way to Massachusetts to buy it.

It was worth it because we live in a small town in the middle of
Minnesota. The range is sufficient to drive anywhere we normally go and
back as an EV, using no gas at all. Even when we average in the occasional
longer trips, the overall average fuel economy has been running 157 mpg.

But I can see where some people would buy it just for a tax credit or to
use HOV lanes and such. They have no intention of ever plugging it in.
The same sort of thing happens with flex-fuel vehicles.

--
There is a computer disease that anybody who works with computers knows
about. It's very serious, and interferes completely with your work. The
trouble with computers is that you 'play' with them! (Richard Feynman)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)

[Lee Hart via EV]

Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

I don't get why people get so excited about PIHs.


I own a PIH (a 2014 Prius with the plug-in). They aren't sold in the 
midwest; I had to go all the way to Massachusetts to buy it.


It was worth it because we live in a small town in the middle of 
Minnesota. The range is sufficient to drive anywhere we normally go and 
back as an EV, using no gas at all. Even when we average in the 
occasional longer trips, the overall average fuel economy has been 
running 157 mpg.


But I can see where some people would buy it just for a tax credit or to 
use HOV lanes and such. They have no intention of ever plugging it in. 
The same sort of thing happens with flex-fuel vehicles.


--
There is a computer disease that anybody who works with computers knows
about. It's very serious, and interferes completely with your work. The
trouble with computers is that you 'play' with them! (Richard Feynman)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)

[Willie via EV]

On 11/14/2017 01:00 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

I don't get why people get so excited about PIHs.

California data shows a big problem with folks not even bothering to charge 
them.


Maybe out of date, but I recall reading that a bunch of employees were 
given compay Volts.  The Volts did not get charged much because it cost 
the employees a little something to charge at home but the gasoline was 
put on company cards.  I would guess that privately owned PIHs do not 
have that problem.


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Re: [EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

I don't get why people get so excited about PIHs.

California data shows a big problem with folks not even bothering to charge 
them.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 14, 2017, at 10:28 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> % I would label this newsitem as EV-ignorant. I think it could have been
> worse, with more errors, incorrect assumptions, and misleading factoids, if
> the writer had made the effort. After you read it, note the writer's
> information sources: a local AK Ford dealership (who are notorious for not
> liking plugins), a local AK utility rep makes statements without any EV
> customer experience.
> *The biggest item I take away from this piece, is Ford killing their pih
> production [
> https://google.com/search?q=Ford+stopped+Energi+production
> ] which is sad as N. American regions with challenging weather conditions
> and limited public EVSE infrastructure are a good market for pih (Canadians
> have proven this true).
> -Bottom line (IMO): Ford's abandonment of their Energi pih smells like a
> cut& run, so Ford can chase after China market profits. %
> 
> http://peninsulaclarion.com/news/2017-11-13/electric-vehicles-raise-more-questions-answers
> Electric vehicles raise more questions than answers
> November 13, 2017  Ben Boettger  benjamin.boettger @peninsulaclrion.com
> 
> Though electric cars are finding enthusiastic users in Alaska’s Southeast,
> how they would perform on the Kenai Peninsula is largely a speculative
> matter.
> 
> To date, the local peak of electric car popularity may have come when
> managers of the Kenai’s Kendall Ford dealership, formerly Stanley Ford,
> added several models of hybrid and electric Ford vehicles to its stock.
> 
> Kendall Ford salesman Dave Bartelmay, who was with Stanley at the time, led
> a talk on electric vehicles at HEA’s Energy Technology Workshops on
> Thursday.
> 
> Electric vehicles are becoming popular in Southeast Alaska communities like
> Juneau ― which, according to radio station KTOO [
> https://www.ktoo.org/2017/02/06/road-lies-ahead-juneaus-electric-cars/
> ], has an estimated 100 electric vehicles, 10 charging stations, and an
> advocacy group [
> https://juneauev.org/
> ] encouraging electric car-friendly infrastructure. One encouragement for
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[EVDL] Ford's Energi pih abandonment raises questions> (AK writer's EV-ignorance dogmatized)

[brucedp5 via EV]

% I would label this newsitem as EV-ignorant. I think it could have been
worse, with more errors, incorrect assumptions, and misleading factoids, if
the writer had made the effort. After you read it, note the writer's
information sources: a local AK Ford dealership (who are notorious for not
liking plugins), a local AK utility rep makes statements without any EV
customer experience.
*The biggest item I take away from this piece, is Ford killing their pih
production [
https://google.com/search?q=Ford+stopped+Energi+production
] which is sad as N. American regions with challenging weather conditions
and limited public EVSE infrastructure are a good market for pih (Canadians
have proven this true).
-Bottom line (IMO): Ford's abandonment of their Energi pih smells like a
cut& run, so Ford can chase after China market profits. %

http://peninsulaclarion.com/news/2017-11-13/electric-vehicles-raise-more-questions-answers
Electric vehicles raise more questions than answers
November 13, 2017  Ben Boettger  benjamin.boettger @peninsulaclrion.com

Though electric cars are finding enthusiastic users in Alaska’s Southeast,
how they would perform on the Kenai Peninsula is largely a speculative
matter.

To date, the local peak of electric car popularity may have come when
managers of the Kenai’s Kendall Ford dealership, formerly Stanley Ford,
added several models of hybrid and electric Ford vehicles to its stock.

Kendall Ford salesman Dave Bartelmay, who was with Stanley at the time, led
a talk on electric vehicles at HEA’s Energy Technology Workshops on
Thursday.

Electric vehicles are becoming popular in Southeast Alaska communities like
Juneau — which, according to radio station KTOO [
https://www.ktoo.org/2017/02/06/road-lies-ahead-juneaus-electric-cars/
], has an estimated 100 electric vehicles, 10 charging stations, and an
advocacy group [
https://juneauev.org/
] encouraging electric car-friendly infrastructure. One encouragement for
electric cars in Southeast is an abundance of cheap hydro-electricity.

For many on the peninsula, however, electric vehicles seem less practical
than in the more compact towns of the southeast, which lack long roads
between them. The road distance between Homer and Anchorage is about 223
miles — roughly the range of a high-end electric car. Recharging an electric
car can take from 30 minutes to 12 hours, leaving a hypothetical electric
driver across the Kenai Peninsula with a potentially long wait time after
making the trip.

One of the electric vehicles that Stanley Ford offered, the Ford Fusion
Energi, fills an empty battery in 2.5 hours from a special 240-volt charger,
or in 7 hours from a standard home outlet. A usual practice for electric
drivers is to leave cars plugged in overnight.


The absence of public charging stations on the Kenai Peninsula was one
factor that discouraged buyers from driving off any of Stanley Ford’s
electric stock, Bartelmay said. The former managers of Stanley Ford planned
to back up their electric offering by installing the peninsula’s first such
station on their lot, Bartelmay said, though this never happened — Stanley
Ford was soon after bought by Kendall, whose leadership scrapped the
electric car plans.

Though Stanley Ford gave away an electric vehicle as a prize in a golf
tournament — to an owner who remains happy with it, Bartlmay said — most of
Kendall Ford’s electric cars are now in the fleet of Kenai’s Budget Car
Rentals. By the time many left the lot, Bartelmay said, “nobody ever even
cracked the door.”

Consumers nationwide have also shown disinterest in the vehicles Stanley
Ford offered. Due to declining sales, Ford recently stopped production of
the Energi and plans to stop the C-Max Hybrid by mid-2018.


Smoothing electrical demand

Though the local costs of owning an electric car are unknown, the rapidly
advancing state-of-the-art may make them more attractive in the future. From
a utility’s perspective, a large number of electric cars on the peninsula
would create new electrical demand, meaning both new revenue and new
problems. If electric vehicles become commonplace on the peninsula,
technological changes to HEA’s grid could come with them.

“If there’s a huge spike in demand for electric vehicles, we as an electric
utility might be in a bit of a pickle,” said HEA project engineer Brad
Zubeck. “If the technology changes and all of the sudden an electric vehicle
market booms, we could be looking at different ways to meet demand.”

Zubeck said that plugging in and charging 140 electric cars at once would
put about a megawatt of electrical load on HEA’s system, which generates
about 80 percent of its power with natural gas-fired turbines.

“To put that in perspective, our peak load is now about 68 megawatts during
any given day,” Zubeck said. “It fluctuates a bit throughout the day — at
nightime loads are low, and everybody wakes up in the morning and plugs
things in, and we see a big spike. All day long, 24-7, there’s somebody at