Re: [EVDL] Car-size fire-blanket smothers EV li-ion fire reignitions

2020-06-23 Thread Bill Dube via EV

On 6/23/2020 1:30 PM, Lawrence Winiarski wrote:
Bill Dube ->  Do you mean the solvent is flammable?  UggThat could 
be a big problem.   Do you know what is used?


Ethylene carbonate is a common li-ion cell electrolyte. Wikipedia 
explains that there are several organic solvents that are commonly used:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Electrolytes

None of the li-ion cells have water-based electrolyte. This is because 
the cell cannot have water in it anywhere, or air, because that would 
combine with the active lithium compounds and render them somewhat inert.


Bill D.


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Re: [EVDL] Car-size fire-blanket smothers EV li-ion fire reignitions

2020-06-22 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
Bill Dube ->  Do you mean the solvent is flammable?  UggThat could be a big 
problem.   Do you know what is used?   

Lee Hart ->  I'm sure that would add to the difficulty, but still I would 
think anything that makes the battery "less" of a batteryand more of a chunk of 
plastic and foil is a good thing even if it doesn't work perfectly.


Just blue-sky'ingwhat if either the solvent or battery separator could 
change state?   For example, for the sake of discussion, 
suppose the separator "melted" at a low enough temp to change from porous to 
relatively nonporous?  Or perhaps even somethingcould "poison" the electrolyte 
in a heat sensitive thing that might release some other salt.



   On Monday, June 22, 2020, 9:58:33 AM PDT, Lee Hart via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Bill Dube via EV wrote:
> This would work for lead acid, where the electrolyte is water based, but
> li-ion cells have an organic solvent based electrolyte.

An additional problem is that the electrolyte is mostly held in the 
separators between the plates. Depending on the specific type of 
battery, little or none of it would flow out if you made a hole in the 
bottom.

Lee Hart

-- 
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  - something to do
  - something to look forward to
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  - someone to take good care of
  - and misbehave, just a little
  --
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Car-size fire-blanket smothers EV li-ion fire reignitions

2020-06-22 Thread paul dove via EV
There is very little electrolyte in a Lithium Ion battery. If you open one up 
it doesn’t pour out. It is mostly on the pos and neg terminals based on charge 
state. You might get a few teaspoons. The idea is to only have as much as 
needed to increase the energy density. More electrolyte increases weight.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 21, 2020, at 6:40 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> I had an idea once.   Dump the electrolyte in a fire.   That stops the 
> battery reaction and stops the fire.   I'd bet you could make a 
> heat sensitive relief valve (at the bottom) and as the battery heats up, it 
> would dump the electrolyte (which is getting hot anyway and would eitherpour 
> via gravity or perhaps boil out the relief valve). It would make a mess...but 
> I bet it would work.
> 
> 
> -- If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it will be 
> done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a ravaged 
> world. Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall 
> 
> 
>On Sunday, June 21, 2020, 4:15:34 PM PDT, Bill Dube via EV 
>  wrote:  
> 
> This might work, but the fact is that nearly all EVs have metal-oxide 
> (ie cobalt) li-ion cells than make their own oxygen internally.
> Basically a fire blanket is useless in an EV fire, and might even 
> exacerbate an EV fire by holding in the heat.
> 
> What works is water applied liberally and continuously to the battery 
> pack to keep the undamaged cells in the pack cool.
> Thermal management, rather than oxygen starvation (which is impossible.)
> 
> Bill D.
> 
>> On 6/22/2020 8:41 AM, evln via EV wrote:
>> 
>> https://insideevs.com/news/429647/giant-fire-blanket-cuts-reignition-ev-blazes/
>> Giant Fire Blanket Helps Cut Battery Reignition In Electric Car Blazes
>> Jun 19, 2020 ... there is no fire without oxygen ... with a giant fire
>> blanket ...
>> https://youtu.be/yO8cVWOqZcg
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
>>   http://www.evdl.org/archive/
>> https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html
>> 
>> 
>> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>> 
>> --
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Re: [EVDL] Car-size fire-blanket smothers EV li-ion fire reignitions

2020-06-22 Thread paul dove via EV
Maybe eventually but I think it just burns up all the fuel. It was over 30 
minutes ten the the first time and twenty the second time and the fire still 
wasn’t out. They never actually show the fire out on that Leaf

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 22, 2020, at 1:52 AM, Cor van de Water via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> The "Triangle of Fire" shows that there are 3 things necessary to
> sustain a (traditional/house) fire: Fuel, Oxygen and Heat:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_triangle
> Obviously, in a chemical fire this can change but the idea of fire
> extinguishing stays the same:
> Remove *ONE* element of the triangle to stop the fire.
> In this case of electrolyte producing both Fuel and Oxygen, the only
> element that you can remove is the necessary Heat to sustain the
> combustion.
> So, that is what firefighters are doing - even on electrical fires in
> EV battery boxes.
> Cor.
> 
>> On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 7:08 PM Lawrence Winiarski via EV
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I had an idea once.   Dump the electrolyte in a fire.   That stops the 
>> battery reaction and stops the fire.   I'd bet you could make a
>> heat sensitive relief valve (at the bottom) and as the battery heats up, it 
>> would dump the electrolyte (which is getting hot anyway and would eitherpour 
>> via gravity or perhaps boil out the relief valve). It would make a 
>> mess...but I bet it would work.
>> 
>> 
>> -- If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it will 
>> be done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a 
>> ravaged world. Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall
>> 
>> 
>>On Sunday, June 21, 2020, 4:15:34 PM PDT, Bill Dube via EV 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> This might work, but the fact is that nearly all EVs have metal-oxide
>> (ie cobalt) li-ion cells than make their own oxygen internally.
>> Basically a fire blanket is useless in an EV fire, and might even
>> exacerbate an EV fire by holding in the heat.
>> 
>> What works is water applied liberally and continuously to the battery
>> pack to keep the undamaged cells in the pack cool.
>> Thermal management, rather than oxygen starvation (which is impossible.)
>> 
>> Bill D.
>> 
>>> On 6/22/2020 8:41 AM, evln via EV wrote:
>>> 
>>> https://insideevs.com/news/429647/giant-fire-blanket-cuts-reignition-ev-blazes/
>>> Giant Fire Blanket Helps Cut Battery Reignition In Electric Car Blazes
>>> Jun 19, 2020 ... there is no fire without oxygen ... with a giant fire
>>> blanket ...
>>> https://youtu.be/yO8cVWOqZcg
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
>>> http://www.evdl.org/archive/
>>> https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html
>>> 
>>> 
>>> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>>> 
>>> --
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>>> 
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Car-size fire-blanket smothers EV li-ion fire reignitions

2020-06-22 Thread Lee Hart via EV

Bill Dube via EV wrote:

This would work for lead acid, where the electrolyte is water based, but
li-ion cells have an organic solvent based electrolyte.


An additional problem is that the electrolyte is mostly held in the 
separators between the plates. Depending on the specific type of 
battery, little or none of it would flow out if you made a hole in the 
bottom.


Lee Hart

--
If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
 - something to do
 - something to look forward to
 - someone to love
 - someone to take good care of
 - and misbehave, just a little
 --
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Car-size fire-blanket smothers EV li-ion fire reignitions

2020-06-22 Thread Bill Dube via EV
This would work for lead acid, where the electrolyte is water based, but 
li-ion cells have an organic solvent based electrolyte.


Bill D.

On 6/22/2020 11:40 AM, Lawrence Winiarski wrote:
I had an idea once.   Dump the electrolyte in a fire.   That stops the 
battery reaction and stops the fire.   I'd bet you could make a
heat sensitive relief valve (at the bottom) and as the battery heats 
up, it would dump the electrolyte (which is getting hot anyway and 
would either

pour via gravity or perhaps boil out the relief valve).
It would make a mess...but I bet it would work.



-- If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it 
will be done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will 
leave a ravaged world. Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall




On Sunday, June 21, 2020, 4:15:34 PM PDT, Bill Dube via EV 
 wrote:



This might work, but the fact is that nearly all EVs have metal-oxide
(ie cobalt) li-ion cells than make their own oxygen internally.
Basically a fire blanket is useless in an EV fire, and might even
exacerbate an EV fire by holding in the heat.

What works is water applied liberally and continuously to the battery
pack to keep the undamaged cells in the pack cool.
Thermal management, rather than oxygen starvation (which is impossible.)

Bill D.

On 6/22/2020 8:41 AM, evln via EV wrote:
>
> 
https://insideevs.com/news/429647/giant-fire-blanket-cuts-reignition-ev-blazes/

> Giant Fire Blanket Helps Cut Battery Reignition In Electric Car Blazes
> Jun 19, 2020 ... there is no fire without oxygen ... with a giant fire
> blanket ...
> https://youtu.be/yO8cVWOqZcg
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
> http://www.evdl.org/archive/
> https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)


>

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Re: [EVDL] Car-size fire-blanket smothers EV li-ion fire reignitions

2020-06-22 Thread Cor van de Water via EV
The "Triangle of Fire" shows that there are 3 things necessary to
sustain a (traditional/house) fire: Fuel, Oxygen and Heat:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_triangle
Obviously, in a chemical fire this can change but the idea of fire
extinguishing stays the same:
Remove *ONE* element of the triangle to stop the fire.
In this case of electrolyte producing both Fuel and Oxygen, the only
element that you can remove is the necessary Heat to sustain the
combustion.
So, that is what firefighters are doing - even on electrical fires in
EV battery boxes.
Cor.

On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 7:08 PM Lawrence Winiarski via EV
 wrote:
>
> I had an idea once.   Dump the electrolyte in a fire.   That stops the 
> battery reaction and stops the fire.   I'd bet you could make a
> heat sensitive relief valve (at the bottom) and as the battery heats up, it 
> would dump the electrolyte (which is getting hot anyway and would eitherpour 
> via gravity or perhaps boil out the relief valve). It would make a mess...but 
> I bet it would work.
>
>
> -- If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it will be 
> done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a ravaged 
> world. Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall
>
>
> On Sunday, June 21, 2020, 4:15:34 PM PDT, Bill Dube via EV 
>  wrote:
>
>  This might work, but the fact is that nearly all EVs have metal-oxide
> (ie cobalt) li-ion cells than make their own oxygen internally.
> Basically a fire blanket is useless in an EV fire, and might even
> exacerbate an EV fire by holding in the heat.
>
> What works is water applied liberally and continuously to the battery
> pack to keep the undamaged cells in the pack cool.
> Thermal management, rather than oxygen starvation (which is impossible.)
>
> Bill D.
>
> On 6/22/2020 8:41 AM, evln via EV wrote:
> >
> > https://insideevs.com/news/429647/giant-fire-blanket-cuts-reignition-ev-blazes/
> > Giant Fire Blanket Helps Cut Battery Reignition In Electric Car Blazes
> > Jun 19, 2020 ... there is no fire without oxygen ... with a giant fire
> > blanket ...
> > https://youtu.be/yO8cVWOqZcg
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
> >  http://www.evdl.org/archive/
> > https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html
> >
> >
> > {brucedp.neocities.org}
> >
> > --
> > Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
> > ___
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> >
>
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Re: [EVDL] Car-size fire-blanket smothers EV li-ion fire reignitions

2020-06-21 Thread paul dove via EV
I’m not buying it. LiCoO2 batteries have their own oxygen source that it why 
the Dreamliner Halon system didn’t work when they had battery fires. If they 
left it that battery would have continued to burn.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 21, 2020, at 3:41 PM, evln via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> https://insideevs.com/news/429647/giant-fire-blanket-cuts-reignition-ev-blazes/
> Giant Fire Blanket Helps Cut Battery Reignition In Electric Car Blazes
> Jun 19, 2020 ... there is no fire without oxygen ... with a giant fire
> blanket ...
> https://youtu.be/yO8cVWOqZcg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
> http://www.evdl.org/archive/
> https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html
> 
> 
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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> 

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Re: [EVDL] Car-size fire-blanket smothers EV li-ion fire reignitions

2020-06-21 Thread Lawrence Winiarski via EV
I had an idea once.   Dump the electrolyte in a fire.   That stops the battery 
reaction and stops the fire.   I'd bet you could make a 
heat sensitive relief valve (at the bottom) and as the battery heats up, it 
would dump the electrolyte (which is getting hot anyway and would eitherpour 
via gravity or perhaps boil out the relief valve). It would make a mess...but I 
bet it would work.


-- If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it will be 
done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a ravaged 
world. Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall 
 

On Sunday, June 21, 2020, 4:15:34 PM PDT, Bill Dube via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 This might work, but the fact is that nearly all EVs have metal-oxide 
(ie cobalt) li-ion cells than make their own oxygen internally.
Basically a fire blanket is useless in an EV fire, and might even 
exacerbate an EV fire by holding in the heat.

What works is water applied liberally and continuously to the battery 
pack to keep the undamaged cells in the pack cool.
Thermal management, rather than oxygen starvation (which is impossible.)

Bill D.

On 6/22/2020 8:41 AM, evln via EV wrote:
>
> https://insideevs.com/news/429647/giant-fire-blanket-cuts-reignition-ev-blazes/
> Giant Fire Blanket Helps Cut Battery Reignition In Electric Car Blazes
> Jun 19, 2020 ... there is no fire without oxygen ... with a giant fire
> blanket ...
> https://youtu.be/yO8cVWOqZcg
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
>  http://www.evdl.org/archive/
> https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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>

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Re: [EVDL] Car-size fire-blanket smothers EV li-ion fire reignitions

2020-06-21 Thread Bill Dube via EV
This might work, but the fact is that nearly all EVs have metal-oxide 
(ie cobalt) li-ion cells than make their own oxygen internally.
Basically a fire blanket is useless in an EV fire, and might even 
exacerbate an EV fire by holding in the heat.


What works is water applied liberally and continuously to the battery 
pack to keep the undamaged cells in the pack cool.

Thermal management, rather than oxygen starvation (which is impossible.)

Bill D.

On 6/22/2020 8:41 AM, evln via EV wrote:


https://insideevs.com/news/429647/giant-fire-blanket-cuts-reignition-ev-blazes/
Giant Fire Blanket Helps Cut Battery Reignition In Electric Car Blazes
Jun 19, 2020 ... there is no fire without oxygen ... with a giant fire
blanket ...
https://youtu.be/yO8cVWOqZcg




For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
  http://www.evdl.org/archive/
https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)