Re: [EVDL] Controller or Motor Problem?

2017-10-31 Thread Buddy Mills via EV
N1
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<ev@lists.evdl.org> Cc: - - <m...@nickersonranch.com> Subject: Re: [EVDL] 
Controller or Motor Problem? 
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Re: [EVDL] Controller or Motor Problem?

2017-10-31 Thread Jay Summet via EV

Ok, good to know about my brush life, thanks.

I re-read the whole thread and realized that replacing your brushes did 
not fix your issue of super slow acceleration.  So unless you are seeing 
a lot of sparking from your brushes when running it no load (try 12v 
battery alone as suggested) I'd be suspicious of the controller (or 
perhaps a weak connection somewhere adding a lot of resistance to your 
battery circuit...easy to find by the excess heat it would generate.


Jay

On 10/31/2017 02:06 PM, - - via EV wrote:

Hi Jay,

I don't have photos, but I just replaced the brushes in my motor and they look 
very similar to yours now. My new brushes might be sticking up an extra mm or 
so, but not much more than that. Also, the braids on your brushes still look 
shiny and coppery. My old brushes had braids that had turned black from the 
carbon. I think your brushes look nearly new.

If I get back into my motor, I will make sure to take some photos.

Mike


On October 31, 2017 at 8:26 AM Jay Summet via EV  wrote:


It sounds like you need new brushes at a minimum.

I have the same motor and have taken some photos of my brushes
(installed) earlier this year. They are mounted in pairs (each brush has
two pigtails).

You can see the photos here:
https://www.summet.com/blog/2017/10/31/fb1-4001a-motor-brush-photos/

My motor is working correctly, so I assume these photos represent a
"good" or at least "ok" brush setup. (I don't know how far they are
supposed to stick up when new, so I don't know how worn my brushes
areif anybody has a photo of the same setup with new brushes I'd
love to compare...)

Jay

On 10/31/2017 03:01 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:



Your brush problem report is puzzling.

I don't understand "the left side on both brushes was mostly shot."  I've
never thought of brushes having a left or right side.

If by "shot" you mean brush wear, that much is not normal.  IIRC, GE once
estimated that their DC motor brushes were good for at least 250,000 miles
of EV use.

According to the evalbum entry, you have a Honda with reverse motor
rotation.  Are you sure the brush timing is set correctly for that?  Maybe
your brushes were eroded by excessive arcing.

When you say "On one brush, the copper braids were completely gone.  On the
second brush, the copper braids were nearly gone," do you mean that the
brush pigtails were burnt?  That seems like a different issue to me.

I'd lay pigtail burnout to gross overload at low speeds or stall.  I did
that to the brushes in my Comuta-car motor when starting on hills.  But you
just don't see that kind of overload with a controller limiting the current,
and ADC 9" motors are a lot more durable than my C-car's feeble little 6hp
GE.  So this seems odd too.  But maybe I'm misinterpreting what you wrote.

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Re: [EVDL] Controller or Motor Problem?

2017-10-31 Thread - - via EV
Hi David,

The pictures that Jay posted show the brushes very well. They are installed in 
pairs, in 4 locations. In 2 locations, the brush nearest the end of the motor 
had braids that were worn, or corroded, or somehow damaged. On the brush where 
the braid was completely gone, it actually looked like some corrosion (slightly 
green). On the other brush, the braid was broken somehow (frayed). It didn't 
look melted.

I agree that I probably have a controller problem. I also understand that Kelly 
controllers are not the highest quality, so I'm not too surprised. I think the 
controller is putting out a maximum of 60-70A or so, which is barely adequate 
at full battery voltage, but really pitiful when at low voltage. I hope to 
confirm that before spending money to replace the controller. Thanks for the 
ideas on dummy loads. I think that's exactly what I need.

The motor rotation and brush timing is correct for the Honda. When I bought the 
car, it wasn't and the brushes and brush holders were damaged. The first thing 
I did was get all that fixed.

Thanks for the suggestions!

Mike

> On October 31, 2017 at 3:01 AM EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> FIrst things first: find out what's going on.  You need a proper ammeter so 
> you can measure the actual motor current.  If you have one measuring battery 
> current, why not move the shunt so it's measuring motor current?
> 
> Alternatively, you could buy another ammeter.  The ones sold by EV parts 
> dealers for in-car instrumentation are usually a shunt (typically 500 amps 
> at 50mv) and a millivoltmeter.  I see a cheap one on Ebay right now at less 
> than $23 shipped. I wouldn't want to vouch for its durability or accuracy.
> 
> You can get the shunt only, substitute a DMM for the meter, and do the math 
> yourself.  I recommend having a passenger read the meter for you.  
> 
> My fist inclination is to say that it sounds like you have a controller 
> problem.  I've seen logic failures in 1980s vintage PMC controllers that 
> caused them to act like the battery was flat and limit drive current to 50 
> amps.  I don't know whether a Kelly would fail in a  similar way, though.  
> 
> In any case, FWIW, Kellys aren't exactly considered the upper crust of 
> controllers.  :-(
> 
> What you need to test the controller safely (in addition to the ammeter) is 
> a dummy load of some kind.  Some EV hobbyists build them, usually for 
> battery testing, with electric water heater elements in a barrel of water.  
> That could be a lot of elements, though, since a 4000 watt 240v element will 
> only draw 1250 Watts (~8.7a) at 144v.
> 
> Years ago I used a fan and heating strips from a derelict heat pump to make 
> a dummy load.  The nice thing about using open nichrome wire elements 
> instead of the sealed elements from water heaters was that I was able to 
> center-tap the coils and parallel the halves to make the elements use more 
> current at lower voltage.  It was good for around 100a at 144v.
> 
> Maybe others here will have more dummy load suggestions.
> 
> As for the motor, I don't think that unseated brushes would inhibit motor 
> current that drastically.  I could be wrong.  
> 
> Try running the motor on 12v (no more) with the trans in neutral, or drive 
> wheel end of frame on jack stands.  Does it run reasonably well with minimal 
> brush arcing?
> 
> Your brush problem report is puzzling.
> 
> I don't understand "the left side on both brushes was mostly shot."  I've 
> never thought of brushes having a left or right side.  
> 
> If by "shot" you mean brush wear, that much is not normal.  IIRC, GE once 
> estimated that their DC motor brushes were good for at least 250,000 miles 
> of EV use.
> 
> According to the evalbum entry, you have a Honda with reverse motor 
> rotation.  Are you sure the brush timing is set correctly for that?  Maybe 
> your brushes were eroded by excessive arcing.
> 
> When you say "On one brush, the copper braids were completely gone.  On the 
> second brush, the copper braids were nearly gone," do you mean that the 
> brush pigtails were burnt?  That seems like a different issue to me.  
> 
> I'd lay pigtail burnout to gross overload at low speeds or stall.  I did 
> that to the brushes in my Comuta-car motor when starting on hills.  But you 
> just don't see that kind of overload with a controller limiting the current, 
> and ADC 9" motors are a lot more durable than my C-car's feeble little 6hp 
> GE.  So this seems odd too.  But maybe I'm misinterpreting what you wrote.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Controller or Motor Problem?

2017-10-31 Thread - - via EV
Hi Jay,

I don't have photos, but I just replaced the brushes in my motor and they look 
very similar to yours now. My new brushes might be sticking up an extra mm or 
so, but not much more than that. Also, the braids on your brushes still look 
shiny and coppery. My old brushes had braids that had turned black from the 
carbon. I think your brushes look nearly new.

If I get back into my motor, I will make sure to take some photos.

Mike

> On October 31, 2017 at 8:26 AM Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> It sounds like you need new brushes at a minimum.
> 
> I have the same motor and have taken some photos of my brushes 
> (installed) earlier this year. They are mounted in pairs (each brush has 
> two pigtails).
> 
> You can see the photos here:
> https://www.summet.com/blog/2017/10/31/fb1-4001a-motor-brush-photos/
> 
> My motor is working correctly, so I assume these photos represent a 
> "good" or at least "ok" brush setup. (I don't know how far they are 
> supposed to stick up when new, so I don't know how worn my brushes 
> areif anybody has a photo of the same setup with new brushes I'd 
> love to compare...)
> 
> Jay
> 
> On 10/31/2017 03:01 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Your brush problem report is puzzling.
> > 
> > I don't understand "the left side on both brushes was mostly shot."  I've
> > never thought of brushes having a left or right side.
> > 
> > If by "shot" you mean brush wear, that much is not normal.  IIRC, GE once
> > estimated that their DC motor brushes were good for at least 250,000 miles
> > of EV use.
> > 
> > According to the evalbum entry, you have a Honda with reverse motor
> > rotation.  Are you sure the brush timing is set correctly for that?  Maybe
> > your brushes were eroded by excessive arcing.
> > 
> > When you say "On one brush, the copper braids were completely gone.  On the
> > second brush, the copper braids were nearly gone," do you mean that the
> > brush pigtails were burnt?  That seems like a different issue to me.
> > 
> > I'd lay pigtail burnout to gross overload at low speeds or stall.  I did
> > that to the brushes in my Comuta-car motor when starting on hills.  But you
> > just don't see that kind of overload with a controller limiting the current,
> > and ADC 9" motors are a lot more durable than my C-car's feeble little 6hp
> > GE.  So this seems odd too.  But maybe I'm misinterpreting what you wrote.
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Re: [EVDL] Controller or Motor Problem?

2017-10-31 Thread - - via EV
Sorry, I didn't realize my Webmail was set to HTML.  Sending as Text:

I wiped the armature after I replaced the brushes, but I didn't do anything to 
remove carbon more aggressively (no stoning or anything). I also blew out all 
the carbon from shaping the brushes. That made a big mess! My brushes arrived 
with a square end, so I had to remove a fair amount of carbon. I used sandpaper 
wrapped around the armature as suggested by some DC motor maintenance web 
sites. It worked very quickly.

Mike

> On October 30, 2017 at 6:34 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> Did you clean the carbon off of the armature? If the build up is bad enough 
> you can have a frame short.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> > On Oct 29, 2017, at 10:58 PM, Mike Nickerson via EV  
> > wrote:
> > 
> > Hello everyone,
> > 
> > I've owned a long-time conversion for the last 7 years or so.  It is a
> > medium performance conversion with ThunderSky cells (still going!), Kelly
> > KDHD Series Controller and ADC FB1-4001-A series DC motor.  You can see its
> > history at:  www.evalbum.com/2778
> > 
> > I'm having a performance problem with the car at low speeds, and trying to
> > figure out whether it's the motor or the controller.  The symptoms are:
> > 
> >  -  Very sluggish acceleration at low motor speeds.
> >  -  Almost no voltage droop from the batteries while having the sluggish
> > acceleration (Low battery amps, as expected).
> >  -  Better acceleration at motor speeds above 3000 rpm.
> >  -  Good battery amps (60-70A) when driving at highway speeds.  Normal
> > performance when operating at battery voltage.
> > 
> > If I can get to highway speeds, the car does fine, but starting out in 1st
> > gear to get started is excruciating.  I think my 0-60 time is probably 50-60
> > seconds.  Without a clutch, it takes about 5 seconds between shifts for the
> > motor to spin down the 1000 rpm to match the transmission.  A little less if
> > I abuse the synchros.
> > 
> > From this, I'm sure that my amps, at low voltage, when the motor is turning
> > slowly, are limited for some reason.  I'm not sure if the controller isn't
> > providing the amps, or the motor isn't drawing them.  The controller is
> > supposedly rated for 1000A, but it's never done that.  However, it always
> > had enough before to accelerate a little better than the original gas car.
> > 
> > I did check the brushes and they were in sad shape.  The ADC motor has 4
> > pairs of brushes, on two windings.  On one winding, the left side on both
> > brushes was mostly shot.  On one brush, the copper braids were completely
> > gone.  On the second brush, the copper braids were nearly gone, just a few
> > strands of copper left.
> > 
> > The brushes have been replaced, shaped and run-in for about 20 hours now.
> > I'm running the motor at about 1500 rpm with no load (transmission connected
> > but out of gear).
> > 
> > Performance is a little better, but still not right.  I still have another
> > problem.
> > 
> > My thoughts:
> > 
> >  -  Is it possible that the brushes aren't full seated yet?  Could that
> > cause this kind of problem?
> >  -  What can I do to put an artificial load on the controller to see how
> > many motor amps it's providing?  
> >  -  I don't have instrumentation on the motor amps right now.  Is there an
> > easy way to do that?
> >  -  Is there an easy way to provide power to the motor while under load and
> > the car is moving?  I would have to go to a shop to have the motor pulled to
> > test it outside the car.
> >  -  Any other motor checks I should do?
> > 
> > Any other thoughts anyone has?  Any suggestions on the tests above to
> > isolate the problem?
> > 
> > Thanks in advance for any help.
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > ___
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> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> > 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Controller or Motor Problem?

2017-10-31 Thread - - via EV
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Re: [EVDL] Controller or Motor Problem?

2017-10-31 Thread - - via EV
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Re: [EVDL] Controller or Motor Problem?

2017-10-31 Thread - - via EV
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Re: [EVDL] Controller or Motor Problem?

2017-10-31 Thread Jay Summet via EV

It sounds like you need new brushes at a minimum.

I have the same motor and have taken some photos of my brushes 
(installed) earlier this year. They are mounted in pairs (each brush has 
two pigtails).


You can see the photos here:
https://www.summet.com/blog/2017/10/31/fb1-4001a-motor-brush-photos/

My motor is working correctly, so I assume these photos represent a 
"good" or at least "ok" brush setup. (I don't know how far they are 
supposed to stick up when new, so I don't know how worn my brushes 
areif anybody has a photo of the same setup with new brushes I'd 
love to compare...)


Jay

On 10/31/2017 03:01 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:



Your brush problem report is puzzling.

I don't understand "the left side on both brushes was mostly shot."  I've
never thought of brushes having a left or right side.

If by "shot" you mean brush wear, that much is not normal.  IIRC, GE once
estimated that their DC motor brushes were good for at least 250,000 miles
of EV use.

According to the evalbum entry, you have a Honda with reverse motor
rotation.  Are you sure the brush timing is set correctly for that?  Maybe
your brushes were eroded by excessive arcing.

When you say "On one brush, the copper braids were completely gone.  On the
second brush, the copper braids were nearly gone," do you mean that the
brush pigtails were burnt?  That seems like a different issue to me.

I'd lay pigtail burnout to gross overload at low speeds or stall.  I did
that to the brushes in my Comuta-car motor when starting on hills.  But you
just don't see that kind of overload with a controller limiting the current,
and ADC 9" motors are a lot more durable than my C-car's feeble little 6hp
GE.  So this seems odd too.  But maybe I'm misinterpreting what you wrote.

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Re: [EVDL] Controller or Motor Problem?

2017-10-31 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
FIrst things first: find out what's going on.  You need a proper ammeter so 
you can measure the actual motor current.  If you have one measuring battery 
current, why not move the shunt so it's measuring motor current?

Alternatively, you could buy another ammeter.  The ones sold by EV parts 
dealers for in-car instrumentation are usually a shunt (typically 500 amps 
at 50mv) and a millivoltmeter.  I see a cheap one on Ebay right now at less 
than $23 shipped. I wouldn't want to vouch for its durability or accuracy.

You can get the shunt only, substitute a DMM for the meter, and do the math 
yourself.  I recommend having a passenger read the meter for you.  

My fist inclination is to say that it sounds like you have a controller 
problem.  I've seen logic failures in 1980s vintage PMC controllers that 
caused them to act like the battery was flat and limit drive current to 50 
amps.  I don't know whether a Kelly would fail in a  similar way, though.  

In any case, FWIW, Kellys aren't exactly considered the upper crust of 
controllers.  :-(

What you need to test the controller safely (in addition to the ammeter) is 
a dummy load of some kind.  Some EV hobbyists build them, usually for 
battery testing, with electric water heater elements in a barrel of water.  
That could be a lot of elements, though, since a 4000 watt 240v element will 
only draw 1250 Watts (~8.7a) at 144v.

Years ago I used a fan and heating strips from a derelict heat pump to make 
a dummy load.  The nice thing about using open nichrome wire elements 
instead of the sealed elements from water heaters was that I was able to 
center-tap the coils and parallel the halves to make the elements use more 
current at lower voltage.  It was good for around 100a at 144v.

Maybe others here will have more dummy load suggestions.

As for the motor, I don't think that unseated brushes would inhibit motor 
current that drastically.  I could be wrong.  

Try running the motor on 12v (no more) with the trans in neutral, or drive 
wheel end of frame on jack stands.  Does it run reasonably well with minimal 
brush arcing?

Your brush problem report is puzzling.

I don't understand "the left side on both brushes was mostly shot."  I've 
never thought of brushes having a left or right side.  

If by "shot" you mean brush wear, that much is not normal.  IIRC, GE once 
estimated that their DC motor brushes were good for at least 250,000 miles 
of EV use.

According to the evalbum entry, you have a Honda with reverse motor 
rotation.  Are you sure the brush timing is set correctly for that?  Maybe 
your brushes were eroded by excessive arcing.

When you say "On one brush, the copper braids were completely gone.  On the 
second brush, the copper braids were nearly gone," do you mean that the 
brush pigtails were burnt?  That seems like a different issue to me.  

I'd lay pigtail burnout to gross overload at low speeds or stall.  I did 
that to the brushes in my Comuta-car motor when starting on hills.  But you 
just don't see that kind of overload with a controller limiting the current, 
and ADC 9" motors are a lot more durable than my C-car's feeble little 6hp 
GE.  So this seems odd too.  But maybe I'm misinterpreting what you wrote.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] Controller or Motor Problem?

2017-10-30 Thread paul dove via EV
Did you clean the carbon off of the armature? If the build up is bad enough you 
can have a frame short.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 29, 2017, at 10:58 PM, Mike Nickerson via EV  wrote:
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I've owned a long-time conversion for the last 7 years or so.  It is a
> medium performance conversion with ThunderSky cells (still going!), Kelly
> KDHD Series Controller and ADC FB1-4001-A series DC motor.  You can see its
> history at:  www.evalbum.com/2778
> 
> I'm having a performance problem with the car at low speeds, and trying to
> figure out whether it's the motor or the controller.  The symptoms are:
> 
>  -  Very sluggish acceleration at low motor speeds.
>  -  Almost no voltage droop from the batteries while having the sluggish
> acceleration (Low battery amps, as expected).
>  -  Better acceleration at motor speeds above 3000 rpm.
>  -  Good battery amps (60-70A) when driving at highway speeds.  Normal
> performance when operating at battery voltage.
> 
> If I can get to highway speeds, the car does fine, but starting out in 1st
> gear to get started is excruciating.  I think my 0-60 time is probably 50-60
> seconds.  Without a clutch, it takes about 5 seconds between shifts for the
> motor to spin down the 1000 rpm to match the transmission.  A little less if
> I abuse the synchros.
> 
> From this, I'm sure that my amps, at low voltage, when the motor is turning
> slowly, are limited for some reason.  I'm not sure if the controller isn't
> providing the amps, or the motor isn't drawing them.  The controller is
> supposedly rated for 1000A, but it's never done that.  However, it always
> had enough before to accelerate a little better than the original gas car.
> 
> I did check the brushes and they were in sad shape.  The ADC motor has 4
> pairs of brushes, on two windings.  On one winding, the left side on both
> brushes was mostly shot.  On one brush, the copper braids were completely
> gone.  On the second brush, the copper braids were nearly gone, just a few
> strands of copper left.
> 
> The brushes have been replaced, shaped and run-in for about 20 hours now.
> I'm running the motor at about 1500 rpm with no load (transmission connected
> but out of gear).
> 
> Performance is a little better, but still not right.  I still have another
> problem.
> 
> My thoughts:
> 
>  -  Is it possible that the brushes aren't full seated yet?  Could that
> cause this kind of problem?
>  -  What can I do to put an artificial load on the controller to see how
> many motor amps it's providing?  
>  -  I don't have instrumentation on the motor amps right now.  Is there an
> easy way to do that?
>  -  Is there an easy way to provide power to the motor while under load and
> the car is moving?  I would have to go to a shop to have the motor pulled to
> test it outside the car.
>  -  Any other motor checks I should do?
> 
> Any other thoughts anyone has?  Any suggestions on the tests above to
> isolate the problem?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any help.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
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