Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight
But what if the difference between a 200 mile *advertised* pack and a real-world 80 miles is my excessive use of the heater at -20F along with running my vhf APRS and talking on HF at the same time - in the dark, with my high beams on? :) 200 miles on a cool California fall day is a different thing when you change to mountainous and cold Montana. -Tom who needs about 40 honest miles a day, regardless of conditions or accessories Ke7vux On Mar 6, 2015 10:50 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: It is ludicrous for someone to be paying for a 200 mile battery when all she needs is 80. As with everything else, there needs to be a variety. The smart EV shopper buys the -smallest- battery that meets her daily need. Paying for a 200 mile battery is like commuting 10 miles a day and dropping off the kids in a hummer. Bob, WB4APR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight
One solution is to build EVs with quick-change battery packs. That's what we're trying on the Sunrise EV2. The batteries are in a drawer that slides out the front. With quick-change packs, you can use a cheap short-range pack for normal around-town driving. Or swap it for a light high-power pack if you want to go drag racing. Or a big long-range pack for extended trips. You could even have a hybrid pack, which includes an ICE generator. This also means you can change your mind later. If you bought the car with with a short-range pack, but found that you needed more, you could buy/borrow/swap your pack for a longer range one later on. It's also a big advantage when it comes time to replace the batteries. Replacing the pack in most EVs is a major undertaking! -- Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeah...@earthlink.net ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight
I noticed on the Tesla website under Model S charging they have a charge time and cost calculator near the bottom of the page: http://www.teslamotors.com/charging#/calculator If you click up on the kind of outlet you use, you notice that 110 V 12A standard outlet is more costly and uses more energy to charge than using 240 volt would. I'm wondering if this is common to the charging setups for other vehicles? I can understand 110 charging is slow process, and good for balancing energy company loads over a longer time, but for the end user, the indication here is a loss of efficiency and higher cost. One thing I realized on the cost differential of the Tesla Model S base 60kw and 85kw models is that though it is shown as $10K, for the 25Kw battery difference it is $8k. The other $2k is for supercharger enabling for the 60Kw model, which is free on the 85Kw model. In thinking about the range situation maybe a look back at gasoline cars is in order. When we look back in time at gasoline cars, initially people went to the general store to buy a can or bottle of gas. Then the development of the gas pump out front using gravity feed made it easier to fill the tank. Later gas/service stations with pumps were developed, and then we come to the primarily gas or gas only stations we have now. During this transition automobiles went from small tanks of say 10 gallons or less and range of 100 miles as speeds were low and if they were lucky in the 1920's, to more modern tanks of 18-20 gallons or more on SUV's and higher speed with ranges in the 3-4 miles or more. 1950's cars were getting probably 250 miles on a tank of gas. More efficient vehicles like the hybrids can go 500 miles on say 10 gallons of gas now. So the expectation of the modern driver has changed with developments over the years. If we liken that to current EV driving, seems like we are coming into the 1950's with 200 mile range and more developments and longer range on the horizon. Don On 3/8/2015 8:21 AM, tomw via EV wrote: /...But what's not irrelevant is our charging infrastructure. We're building out L3 charging which, I believe, will be too slow once 200+ mile range cars are out.../ I agree Peri. I think we failed to move from the lead-acid range mentality to anticipate longer range vehicles. Less than a decade ago people who drove evs were always looking for places to opportunity charge from 120VAC because they only had about 15-25 mile range, and 120VAC was what was more available. One of the main topics of conversation at ev club meetings was the location of various opportunity charging points. Addition of 5 miles range was significant then, 20% to 33% extension, and could make the difference for getting back home from across town. Compared to charging from a 120VAC outlet L2 EVSEs seemed really fast, so more than adequate. The L2 network was put in place to give people peace of mind that they wouldn't run out of charge driving around town, but they weren't going to anyway. I pointed that out after I converted my car in 2009 but the people in the local ev club who had driven lead acid evs for years were still understandably focused on opportunity charging. The main purpose of L2 EVSEs now is for people from out of town to charge, since vehicles with greater than around 50 mile range rarely charge anywhere but at home for around town trips. But L2 EVSEs are too slow for adding 50 more miles or so. It only works well if you leave your car charging while you do something else such as go for a hike, bike ride, eat a meal, or do some work on your computer at a coffee shop (with a note on the windshield stating time it is ok to unplug). It also is fine for charging at work, but then 120VAC would do the job there for most people. I think it likely we are now repeating the same mistake we made going from 20 mile evs to 80 mile evs. In several years people will likely be driving 140 - 200 mile range evs, wanting to add much more range per charging session, and wondering why we installed all these unbelievably slow L2 EVSEs. It is a situation common to quickly moving technologies. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-BASF-sez-1k-mi-NiMH-EV-Pack-700Wh-kg-lighter-weight-tp4674091p4674131.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Don Bradley PO Box 141 Forestville, Ca. 95436 Maker of Signal Generators for Chladni Plate Tuning ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight
Nope, I agree with Bob. Not only do you have the expense of an unnecessarily large pack but you are carting around its enormous weight as well. The effect on the average day-to-day efficiency of the EV would be huge especially for a vehicle used mostly around town in stop-go traffic. Most families that can afford an EV could probably afford 2 - just like most EV owning families have one EV and one ICEV. Just make the ICEV a PHEV and use that for the long range trips... But hey, its a free(ish) country! On 6 Mar 2015, at 17:56, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Isn't that a bit extreme? What about the many people who want to own only one car and normally drive 20 miles a day but once a week or so go out of town - to the mountains, to the beach, to the inlaws... They could rent but might prefer the convenience of having their own vehicle ready to go. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org; brucedp5 bruce...@operamail.com Sent: 06-Mar-15 9:50:03 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight It is ludicrous for someone to be paying for a 200 mile battery when all she needs is 80. As with everything else, there needs to be a variety. The smart EV shopper buys the -smallest- battery that meets her daily need. Paying for a 200 mile battery is like commuting 10 miles a day and dropping off the kids in a hummer. Bob, WB4APR -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV Sent: Friday, March 06, 2015 11:59 AM To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight On Mar 6, 2015, at 2:19 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: [T]he kind of developments being researched by BASF could very well pave the way to cars that could travel more than 1,000 miles on a battery pack the same size as the ones in today's mid-priced electric cars. I'm sure we'll never see significant numbers of thousand-mile-range cars on the market. That's almost twelve hours at 85 MPH, and over eighteen hours at 55 MPH. What we'd see long before then would be cars with half as much battery. Never mind the savings in money; the space and weight could be put to better use. Or, if a battery of that much capacity winds up in a vehicle, the vehicle will be something like the Hummer: hugely oversized and inefficient, but still with a 500-mile range due to twice the batteries. It looks like a 200-mile range seems to be the point where Joe Sixpack stops having crippling amounts of range anxiety (whether justified or not), and we're transitioning to that being not untypical. Tesla's had that for a while and all the rumors are about the next vehicles from various major manufacturers meeting that spec. I'd expect most cars to eventually settle on a 250 - 350 mile range, no matter what happens to battery capacity. There might be some premium models with a 500+ mile range for bragging / non-stop cross-country touring (65 MPH * 8 hours = 520 miles), but never a 1000 mile range. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150306/7fb6c0 d0/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight
I've enjoyed this thread. My LEAF covers 80% of our commuting needs... all the in-town stuff. But I'd still like the next-size pack so that I could get 18% of the remaining trips! Our Prius is a great car, but I'd rather be using the LEAF, instead of swapping with my wife during Oregon temp extremes. It's expensive, and I should just get over the extra CO2 emissions, but I can't. Level 1 charging is dicey, depending on the length of the meetings, and L2 chargers aren't close enough. Bob Bath, from his iPod, so any misspellings are from autocorrect or fat fingers on a small device, not cluelessness... On Mar 8, 2015, at 1:55 AM, Martin WINLOW via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Nope, I agree with Bob. Not only do you have the expense of an unnecessarily large pack but you are carting around its enormous weight as well. The effect on the average day-to-day efficiency of the EV would be huge especially for a vehicle used mostly around town in stop-go traffic. Most families that can afford an EV could probably afford 2 - just like most EV owning families have one EV and one ICEV. Just make the ICEV a PHEV and use that for the long range trips... But hey, its a free(ish) country! On 6 Mar 2015, at 17:56, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Isn't that a bit extreme? What about the many people who want to own only one car and normally drive 20 miles a day but once a week or so go out of town - to the mountains, to the beach, to the inlaws... They could rent but might prefer the convenience of having their own vehicle ready to go. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org; brucedp5 bruce...@operamail.com Sent: 06-Mar-15 9:50:03 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight It is ludicrous for someone to be paying for a 200 mile battery when all she needs is 80. As with everything else, there needs to be a variety. The smart EV shopper buys the -smallest- battery that meets her daily need. Paying for a 200 mile battery is like commuting 10 miles a day and dropping off the kids in a hummer. Bob, WB4APR -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV Sent: Friday, March 06, 2015 11:59 AM To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight On Mar 6, 2015, at 2:19 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: [T]he kind of developments being researched by BASF could very well pave the way to cars that could travel more than 1,000 miles on a battery pack the same size as the ones in today's mid-priced electric cars. I'm sure we'll never see significant numbers of thousand-mile-range cars on the market. That's almost twelve hours at 85 MPH, and over eighteen hours at 55 MPH. What we'd see long before then would be cars with half as much battery. Never mind the savings in money; the space and weight could be put to better use. Or, if a battery of that much capacity winds up in a vehicle, the vehicle will be something like the Hummer: hugely oversized and inefficient, but still with a 500-mile range due to twice the batteries. It looks like a 200-mile range seems to be the point where Joe Sixpack stops having crippling amounts of range anxiety (whether justified or not), and we're transitioning to that being not untypical. Tesla's had that for a while and all the rumors are about the next vehicles from various major manufacturers meeting that spec. I'd expect most cars to eventually settle on a 250 - 350 mile range, no matter what happens to battery capacity. There might be some premium models with a 500+ mile range for bragging / non-stop cross-country touring (65 MPH * 8 hours = 520 miles), but never a 1000 mile range. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150306/7fb6c0 d0/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight
If vehicle purchase was only about economics, 80% of commuter vehicles would be mopeds and Vespa-style scooters. That they're not should tell you that much more than mere economics goes into vehicle purchase decisions... ...and freedom (or versatility) is very high on that list. Indeed, it's the sort of thing so high on the list that it's not even a consideration for anybody until it's not available or somehow limited. Another example: I'd guess that probably 80% of driving is done at speeds of 45 MPH and below. It would be very economical to buy a vehicle with a top speed of only 45 MPH. Yet who seriously considers a vehicle that's not rated for the freeway, save for certain very limited domains (like golf cars in retirement communities)? Or, heck. Probably 80% of driving is done during daylight hours, too, so why bother with the expense of headlights when you can just make sure you never have to drive at night? And 80% of driving is done in dry conditions, so why have windshield wipers when you can just stay home when it might rain? I could go on, but you hopefully get the point. Today's EV fleet makes all kinds of sense for significant numbers of people, including many who might initially dismiss them out of hand. We should make sure everybody seriously considers them, but we most emphatically should *NOT* try to convince people that they can be happy with an EV by reducing their expectations for what a car should be capable of. If you're a single-car household today and you make monthly trips towing your boat to the lake 75 miles away, even if your daily commute is a mere ten miles, an EV isn't for you -- and that's just fine! Wait for the technology to catch up, but don't feel guilty in the mean time because you don't meet some idealized purity test of maximum economy. b On Mar 6, 2015, at 11:08 AM, paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Sure they might exist but it's not economical to own that much battery for occasional use. People like that usually have multiple cars. We first must get past the adoption curve. Too much range anxiety among people with no EV experience. From: Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Friday, March 6, 2015 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight Isn't that a bit extreme? What about the many people who want to own only one car and normally drive 20 miles a day but once a week or so go out of town - to the mountains, to the beach, to the inlaws... They could rent but might prefer the convenience of having their own vehicle ready to go. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org; brucedp5 bruce...@operamail.com Sent: 06-Mar-15 9:50:03 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight It is ludicrous for someone to be paying for a 200 mile battery when all she needs is 80. As with everything else, there needs to be a variety. The smart EV shopper buys the -smallest- battery that meets her daily need. Paying for a 200 mile battery is like commuting 10 miles a day and dropping off the kids in a hummer. Bob, WB4APR -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV Sent: Friday, March 06, 2015 11:59 AM To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight On Mar 6, 2015, at 2:19 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: [T]he kind of developments being researched by BASF could very well pave the way to cars that could travel more than 1,000 miles on a battery pack the same size as the ones in today's mid-priced electric cars. I'm sure we'll never see significant numbers of thousand-mile-range cars on the market. That's almost twelve hours at 85 MPH, and over eighteen hours at 55 MPH. What we'd see long before then would be cars with half as much battery. Never mind the savings in money; the space and weight could be put to better use. Or, if a battery of that much capacity winds up in a vehicle, the vehicle will be something like the Hummer: hugely oversized and inefficient, but still with a 500-mile range due to twice the batteries. It looks like a 200-mile range seems to be the point where Joe Sixpack stops having crippling amounts of range anxiety (whether justified or not), and we're transitioning to that being not untypical. Tesla's had that for a while and all the rumors are about the next vehicles from various major manufacturers meeting that spec. I'd expect most cars to eventually settle on a 250 - 350 mile range, no matter what happens to battery capacity. There might be some premium models
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight
Sorry The average american houshold owns 2.3 cars. Only 34% own one, but 35% own three or more. A pure EV is simply not going to make economical sense for a single family car. Let them buy a hybrid. So why try to imply the EV's are not ready for prime time when the other 66% would be more than happy to save $20,000 on a huge battery that they simply dont need nor want! Sure, different strokes for different folks, but EV enthusiasts are shooting us in the foot when they claim that EV's are no viable until they have 200 mile batteries! At $300/kWh by 2020, that's $20,000 for a 200 mile battery. For an EV that should only cost about $20k, then why pay DOUBLE for a battery that 66% of us don't need. Sure SOME people need a200 mile battery and some will be happy to pay for it. But please stop implying that EV's are not ready for general use until everyone gets a 200 mile battery. Bob, Wb4APR On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 6:37 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: If vehicle purchase was only about economics, 80% of commuter vehicles would be mopeds and Vespa-style scooters. That they're not should tell you that much more than mere economics goes into vehicle purchase decisions... ...and freedom (or versatility) is very high on that list. Indeed, it's the sort of thing so high on the list that it's not even a consideration for anybody until it's not available or somehow limited. Another example: I'd guess that probably 80% of driving is done at speeds of 45 MPH and below. It would be very economical to buy a vehicle with a top speed of only 45 MPH. Yet who seriously considers a vehicle that's not rated for the freeway, save for certain very limited domains (like golf cars in retirement communities)? Or, heck. Probably 80% of driving is done during daylight hours, too, so why bother with the expense of headlights when you can just make sure you never have to drive at night? And 80% of driving is done in dry conditions, so why have windshield wipers when you can just stay home when it might rain? I could go on, but you hopefully get the point. Today's EV fleet makes all kinds of sense for significant numbers of people, including many who might initially dismiss them out of hand. We should make sure everybody seriously considers them, but we most emphatically should *NOT* try to convince people that they can be happy with an EV by reducing their expectations for what a car should be capable of. If you're a single-car household today and you make monthly trips towing your boat to the lake 75 miles away, even if your daily commute is a mere ten miles, an EV isn't for you -- and that's just fine! Wait for the technology to catch up, but don't feel guilty in the mean time because you don't meet some idealized purity test of maximum economy. b On Mar 6, 2015, at 11:08 AM, paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Sure they might exist but it's not economical to own that much battery for occasional use. People like that usually have multiple cars. We first must get past the adoption curve. Too much range anxiety among people with no EV experience. From: Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Friday, March 6, 2015 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight Isn't that a bit extreme? What about the many people who want to own only one car and normally drive 20 miles a day but once a week or so go out of town - to the mountains, to the beach, to the inlaws... They could rent but might prefer the convenience of having their own vehicle ready to go. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org; brucedp5 bruce...@operamail.com Sent: 06-Mar-15 9:50:03 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight It is ludicrous for someone to be paying for a 200 mile battery when all she needs is 80. As with everything else, there needs to be a variety. The smart EV shopper buys the -smallest- battery that meets her daily need. Paying for a 200 mile battery is like commuting 10 miles a day and dropping off the kids in a hummer. Bob, WB4APR -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV Sent: Friday, March 06, 2015 11:59 AM To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight On Mar 6, 2015, at 2:19 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: [T]he kind of developments being researched by BASF could very well pave the way to cars that could travel more than 1,000 miles on a battery pack the same size as the ones in today's mid-priced electric cars. I'm sure
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight
On Mar 6, 2015, at 5:57 PM, Robert Bruninga bruni...@usna.edu wrote: Sure, different strokes for different folks, but EV enthusiasts are shooting us in the foot when they claim that EV's are no viable until they have 200 mile batteries! That's not at all what I and others are doing. If you re-read my note, you'll see that I wrote, Today's EV fleet makes all kinds of sense for significant numbers of people, including many who might initially dismiss them out of hand. That's not even remotely close to claiming that EVs are only viable if they have a 200 mile range. The point I'm trying to make is that most people's perception is such that a 200 mile range crosses a threshold past which an EV becomes a general-purpose no-restrictions vehicle, as opposed to a specialty / niche / limited vehicle as it is today. That perception is largely valid, even if a sizable fraction of the driving public are perfectly suited for that niche. It's the difference between an EV being an ideal commuter car for one of the two people in a two- or three-car household, and an EV being an ideal car, period, full stop. We need to be realistic about this, or else people will think we're just blowing electric smoke up their tailpipes. Sell the EVs for what they're great at, which is quite significant. But don't try to tell people that they're wasteful or being uneconomical or whatever just because they're part of that sizable population for which today's EVs are a bad fit -- and _especially- not when general-purpose EVs are right around the corner. At $300/kWh by 2020, that's $20,000 for a 200 mile battery. For an EV that should only cost about $20k, then why pay DOUBLE for a battery that 66% of us don't need. That's the kind of thing I mean. Tell people that they don't need a 200-mile vehicle when they're used to doing 400-mile road trips without a second thought, and they'll think you're some sort of tree-hugging Luddite ascetic who doesn't understand why anybody would waste money on two-ply toilet paper or name-brand boxed Mac Cheese. Instead, tell people that EVs beat the pants off gassers when it comes to commuter vehicles and city cars. Tell them that full-range EVs are here if you've got the dough for a Tesla, and will soon be here if you've got the dough for a midrange non-luxury non-econobox sedan. But _don't_ tell them that they don't actually need a 200 mile range and that they're idiots for even thinking about spending that kind of money on such waste. Cheers, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150306/99ec976c/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight
It's worse than that. They should build them along interstates at current fueling stations. 90% of the current stations are unused because people charge at home. Who wants to sit at a charger with nothing to do? From: Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Friday, March 6, 2015 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight Yes, irrelevant in a way. But what's not irrelevant is our charging infrastructure. We're building out L3 charging which, I believe, will be too slow once 200+ mile range cars are out. We should be spending now on infrastructure that will be useful for the next 10 years, what we're doing now will be obsolete before the build out is finished. Tesla is doing a much better job but, of course, only available to Tesla owners. Peri -- Original Message -- From: paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 06-Mar-15 9:11:42 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight Irrelevant until a person can actually purchase one. Till then it's pie in the sky. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150306/a97a9344/attachment-0001.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight
On Mar 6, 2015, at 2:19 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: [T]he kind of developments being researched by BASF could very well pave the way to cars that could travel more than 1,000 miles on a battery pack the same size as the ones in today’s mid-priced electric cars. I'm sure we'll never see significant numbers of thousand-mile-range cars on the market. That's almost twelve hours at 85 MPH, and over eighteen hours at 55 MPH. What we'd see long before then would be cars with half as much battery. Never mind the savings in money; the space and weight could be put to better use. Or, if a battery of that much capacity winds up in a vehicle, the vehicle will be something like the Hummer: hugely oversized and inefficient, but still with a 500-mile range due to twice the batteries. It looks like a 200-mile range seems to be the point where Joe Sixpack stops having crippling amounts of range anxiety (whether justified or not), and we're transitioning to that being not untypical. Tesla's had that for a while and all the rumors are about the next vehicles from various major manufacturers meeting that spec. I'd expect most cars to eventually settle on a 250 - 350 mile range, no matter what happens to battery capacity. There might be some premium models with a 500+ mile range for bragging / non-stop cross-country touring (65 MPH * 8 hours = 520 miles), but never a 1000 mile range. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150306/7fb6c0d0/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight
Yep, pretty much agree with you. The details will probably come down to the amount of time to recharge. If you can travel for 4 hours and recharge in 10-15 minutes, I think it will be scarce to find discontented people. 4 hours at 65mph would be 260 mile range. Of course, unless you regularly make trips longer than 4 hours, taking a bit longer to charge shouldn't be such a big deal :) I think it's excitinig that we're getting close to 200 mile range cars at a LEAF price. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: brucedp5 bruce...@operamail.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 06-Mar-15 8:59:29 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight On Mar 6, 2015, at 2:19 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: [T]he kind of developments being researched by BASF could very well pave the way to cars that could travel more than 1,000 miles on a battery pack the same size as the ones in today’s mid-priced electric cars. I'm sure we'll never see significant numbers of thousand-mile-range cars on the market. That's almost twelve hours at 85 MPH, and over eighteen hours at 55 MPH. What we'd see long before then would be cars with half as much battery. Never mind the savings in money; the space and weight could be put to better use. Or, if a battery of that much capacity winds up in a vehicle, the vehicle will be something like the Hummer: hugely oversized and inefficient, but still with a 500-mile range due to twice the batteries. It looks like a 200-mile range seems to be the point where Joe Sixpack stops having crippling amounts of range anxiety (whether justified or not), and we're transitioning to that being not untypical. Tesla's had that for a while and all the rumors are about the next vehicles from various major manufacturers meeting that spec. I'd expect most cars to eventually settle on a 250 - 350 mile range, no matter what happens to battery capacity. There might be some premium models with a 500+ mile range for bragging / non-stop cross-country touring (65 MPH * 8 hours = 520 miles), but never a 1000 mile range. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150306/7fb6c0d0/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight
Irrelevant until a person can actually purchase one. Till then it's pie in the sky. From: Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Friday, March 6, 2015 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight Yep, pretty much agree with you. The details will probably come down to the amount of time to recharge. If you can travel for 4 hours and recharge in 10-15 minutes, I think it will be scarce to find discontented people. 4 hours at 65mph would be 260 mile range. Of course, unless you regularly make trips longer than 4 hours, taking a bit longer to charge shouldn't be such a big deal :) I think it's excitinig that we're getting close to 200 mile range cars at a LEAF price. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: brucedp5 bruce...@operamail.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 06-Mar-15 8:59:29 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight On Mar 6, 2015, at 2:19 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: [T]he kind of developments being researched by BASF could very well pave the way to cars that could travel more than 1,000 miles on a battery pack the same size as the ones in today’s mid-priced electric cars. I'm sure we'll never see significant numbers of thousand-mile-range cars on the market. That's almost twelve hours at 85 MPH, and over eighteen hours at 55 MPH. What we'd see long before then would be cars with half as much battery. Never mind the savings in money; the space and weight could be put to better use. Or, if a battery of that much capacity winds up in a vehicle, the vehicle will be something like the Hummer: hugely oversized and inefficient, but still with a 500-mile range due to twice the batteries. It looks like a 200-mile range seems to be the point where Joe Sixpack stops having crippling amounts of range anxiety (whether justified or not), and we're transitioning to that being not untypical. Tesla's had that for a while and all the rumors are about the next vehicles from various major manufacturers meeting that spec. I'd expect most cars to eventually settle on a 250 - 350 mile range, no matter what happens to battery capacity. There might be some premium models with a 500+ mile range for bragging / non-stop cross-country touring (65 MPH * 8 hours = 520 miles), but never a 1000 mile range. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150306/7fb6c0d0/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150306/fed9be0b/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight
Isn't that a bit extreme? What about the many people who want to own only one car and normally drive 20 miles a day but once a week or so go out of town - to the mountains, to the beach, to the inlaws... They could rent but might prefer the convenience of having their own vehicle ready to go. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org; brucedp5 bruce...@operamail.com Sent: 06-Mar-15 9:50:03 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight It is ludicrous for someone to be paying for a 200 mile battery when all she needs is 80. As with everything else, there needs to be a variety. The smart EV shopper buys the -smallest- battery that meets her daily need. Paying for a 200 mile battery is like commuting 10 miles a day and dropping off the kids in a hummer. Bob, WB4APR -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV Sent: Friday, March 06, 2015 11:59 AM To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight On Mar 6, 2015, at 2:19 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: [T]he kind of developments being researched by BASF could very well pave the way to cars that could travel more than 1,000 miles on a battery pack the same size as the ones in today's mid-priced electric cars. I'm sure we'll never see significant numbers of thousand-mile-range cars on the market. That's almost twelve hours at 85 MPH, and over eighteen hours at 55 MPH. What we'd see long before then would be cars with half as much battery. Never mind the savings in money; the space and weight could be put to better use. Or, if a battery of that much capacity winds up in a vehicle, the vehicle will be something like the Hummer: hugely oversized and inefficient, but still with a 500-mile range due to twice the batteries. It looks like a 200-mile range seems to be the point where Joe Sixpack stops having crippling amounts of range anxiety (whether justified or not), and we're transitioning to that being not untypical. Tesla's had that for a while and all the rumors are about the next vehicles from various major manufacturers meeting that spec. I'd expect most cars to eventually settle on a 250 - 350 mile range, no matter what happens to battery capacity. There might be some premium models with a 500+ mile range for bragging / non-stop cross-country touring (65 MPH * 8 hours = 520 miles), but never a 1000 mile range. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150306/7fb6c0 d0/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight
That alone is reason to celebrate :) sean On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 1:43 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: brucedp5 via EV wrote: https://transportevolved.com/2015/03/04/nimh-batteries- could-yet-again-power-electric-cars-says-basf- thanks-to-ten-fold-increase-in-energy-density/ NiMH Batteries Could Yet Again Power Electric Cars Says BASF, Thanks to Ten-Fold Increase in Energy Density None of this matters if no one can buy it. So what this tells me is that Chevron's nimh patent monopoly is broken, or at least cracked. BASF wouldn't invest in a technology that they couldn't sell. -- Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeah...@earthlink.net ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- Sean Korb spk...@spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382 The more you drive, the less intelligent you get --Miller Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. -P. Picasso -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150306/fa9e079f/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight
brucedp5 via EV wrote: https://transportevolved.com/2015/03/04/nimh-batteries-could-yet-again-power-electric-cars-says-basf-thanks-to-ten-fold-increase-in-energy-density/ NiMH Batteries Could Yet Again Power Electric Cars Says BASF, Thanks to Ten-Fold Increase in Energy Density None of this matters if no one can buy it. So what this tells me is that Chevron's nimh patent monopoly is broken, or at least cracked. BASF wouldn't invest in a technology that they couldn't sell. -- Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeah...@earthlink.net ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight
It is ludicrous for someone to be paying for a 200 mile battery when all she needs is 80. As with everything else, there needs to be a variety. The smart EV shopper buys the -smallest- battery that meets her daily need. Paying for a 200 mile battery is like commuting 10 miles a day and dropping off the kids in a hummer. Bob, WB4APR -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV Sent: Friday, March 06, 2015 11:59 AM To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight On Mar 6, 2015, at 2:19 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: [T]he kind of developments being researched by BASF could very well pave the way to cars that could travel more than 1,000 miles on a battery pack the same size as the ones in today's mid-priced electric cars. I'm sure we'll never see significant numbers of thousand-mile-range cars on the market. That's almost twelve hours at 85 MPH, and over eighteen hours at 55 MPH. What we'd see long before then would be cars with half as much battery. Never mind the savings in money; the space and weight could be put to better use. Or, if a battery of that much capacity winds up in a vehicle, the vehicle will be something like the Hummer: hugely oversized and inefficient, but still with a 500-mile range due to twice the batteries. It looks like a 200-mile range seems to be the point where Joe Sixpack stops having crippling amounts of range anxiety (whether justified or not), and we're transitioning to that being not untypical. Tesla's had that for a while and all the rumors are about the next vehicles from various major manufacturers meeting that spec. I'd expect most cars to eventually settle on a 250 - 350 mile range, no matter what happens to battery capacity. There might be some premium models with a 500+ mile range for bragging / non-stop cross-country touring (65 MPH * 8 hours = 520 miles), but never a 1000 mile range. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150306/7fb6c0 d0/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight
Sure they might exist but it's not economical to own that much battery for occasional use. People like that usually have multiple cars. We first must get past the adoption curve. Too much range anxiety among people with no EV experience. From: Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Friday, March 6, 2015 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight Isn't that a bit extreme? What about the many people who want to own only one car and normally drive 20 miles a day but once a week or so go out of town - to the mountains, to the beach, to the inlaws... They could rent but might prefer the convenience of having their own vehicle ready to go. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org; brucedp5 bruce...@operamail.com Sent: 06-Mar-15 9:50:03 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight It is ludicrous for someone to be paying for a 200 mile battery when all she needs is 80. As with everything else, there needs to be a variety. The smart EV shopper buys the -smallest- battery that meets her daily need. Paying for a 200 mile battery is like commuting 10 miles a day and dropping off the kids in a hummer. Bob, WB4APR -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV Sent: Friday, March 06, 2015 11:59 AM To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight On Mar 6, 2015, at 2:19 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: [T]he kind of developments being researched by BASF could very well pave the way to cars that could travel more than 1,000 miles on a battery pack the same size as the ones in today's mid-priced electric cars. I'm sure we'll never see significant numbers of thousand-mile-range cars on the market. That's almost twelve hours at 85 MPH, and over eighteen hours at 55 MPH. What we'd see long before then would be cars with half as much battery. Never mind the savings in money; the space and weight could be put to better use. Or, if a battery of that much capacity winds up in a vehicle, the vehicle will be something like the Hummer: hugely oversized and inefficient, but still with a 500-mile range due to twice the batteries. It looks like a 200-mile range seems to be the point where Joe Sixpack stops having crippling amounts of range anxiety (whether justified or not), and we're transitioning to that being not untypical. Tesla's had that for a while and all the rumors are about the next vehicles from various major manufacturers meeting that spec. I'd expect most cars to eventually settle on a 250 - 350 mile range, no matter what happens to battery capacity. There might be some premium models with a 500+ mile range for bragging / non-stop cross-country touring (65 MPH * 8 hours = 520 miles), but never a 1000 mile range. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150306/7fb6c0 d0/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150306/077cfc64/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight
Oh. On February 14, 2012 BASF http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BASF announced that it had acquired Ovonic Battery Company from Energy Conversion Devices Inc.[27] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batteries#cite_note-27 On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 1:43 PM, Sean Korb spk...@gmail.com wrote: That alone is reason to celebrate :) sean On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 1:43 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: brucedp5 via EV wrote: https://transportevolved.com/2015/03/04/nimh-batteries- could-yet-again-power-electric-cars-says-basf- thanks-to-ten-fold-increase-in-energy-density/ NiMH Batteries Could Yet Again Power Electric Cars Says BASF, Thanks to Ten-Fold Increase in Energy Density None of this matters if no one can buy it. So what this tells me is that Chevron's nimh patent monopoly is broken, or at least cracked. BASF wouldn't invest in a technology that they couldn't sell. -- Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeah...@earthlink.net ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- Sean Korb spk...@spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382 The more you drive, the less intelligent you get --Miller Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. -P. Picasso -- Sean Korb spk...@spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382 The more you drive, the less intelligent you get --Miller Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. -P. Picasso -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150306/c937bc6e/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight
On 6 Mar 2015 at 10:08, paul dove via EV wrote: Sure they [people who usually drive only 20 mi/day but now and then need more range] might exist but it's not economical to own that much battery for occasional use. Well, now, that depends. If you only use 10% of your battery's capacity per day, you only have to charge every 8 days or so. That battery is likely to last the life of the vehicle, or longer, unless you're using lithium and the calendar-life-over-cycle-life restriction comes into play. That might be an appropriate and economical choice for some people. Let's say (somewhat optimistically) that the vehicle will last 15 years, and you drive 12k miles per year. That's an average of 32 miles oer day, and a total of 180k over the vehicle's life. So, maybe a range of 80-100 miles is plenty. But suppose you buy a bigger battery, with a rated range of 200mi, and you use 80% of it before charging (a good plan for long battery life). Thus most weeks, you'll charge only once every 5.6 days (rounding, every 5 days). You'll thus cycle your battery 1095 times over the life of the vehicle. I don't know enough about lithium to say, and I think it varies with chemistry, but at that point an NiMH battery (existing technology) will probably have used no more than half of its usable cycle life. So you probably do have more battery than you need for your normal vehicle mission. But wait. For one thing, this means you'll probably never have to worry about ponying up the cash for a new battery. That's comparable (in financial disruption even if not in exact cost) to having to replace the engine in your ICEV, something every ICEV owner dreads. I know quite a few people who live paycheck to paycheck, and simply don't have that kind of cash. For them, paying more upfront so they don't have to worry about buying a replacement battery later might be a reasonable choice. For another, what if you need to make a 180+ mile trip now and then? With an absurdly large battery, you have the spare capacity, and again - freedom from worry. If, for example, your daughter at college 90 miles away calls at 1am and says she's just been busted, you can go bail her out right now. (Not that this has actually happened to me, but you never know.) David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
