Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design (and fossil free)
I track our cars' power usage and our grid-intertie solar power generation, and we generate, on an annual average, seventeen times as much as our two cars use. So we're only using hydrocarbons in so far as everything's fungible, and thirty-four other cars are using our solar power. -Bill On Sep 15, 2014, at 10:59, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: ...then no one should be driving at ALL. Even an EV derives it's power from fossil sources in one way or another. Whoaa, that is simply not true (though the right wing media would like us to believe it). Studies have shown that at least HALF of all people who purchase an EV either have solar or buy their electricity from 100% clean renewable providers such as solar or wind. And most of those that don't have that option say they WOULD if their local power company offered it. It is no coincidence that most of those people who buy EV's are also the motivated people who buy 100% clean renewable energy if they can. My EV is 100% free of fossil fuel (we have total solar at our house). We have reduced our fossil fuel energy consumption from over 3000 gallons equivalent per year down to 300. That is a 10-to-1 reduction. That last 300 gallons per year is for the Prius that we keep for trips beyond routine EV range. See a plot of how we went from 3000 gal to 300 in just the last few years (about 50% down this page:) http://aprs.org/AFM-environment.html And the amazing thing is that switching to solar and EV's is CHEAPER than just continuing to burn coal and oil to oblivion. This weekend, I just added another 3 kW array to my house for a total of 14 kW (and another 3 kW in the driveway awaiting non-honey-do time). Cost of this last 3kW (DIY) is on the order of 90 cents a watt or about $2700 including the inverter. And will generate about $500 a year in return. That is a 26% return on investment per year for the rest of my life Compare 26% ROI to savings at 1% or the stock market at 6%. And this 26% ROI will actually go UP every time the cost of energy goes up It makes no sense not to invest in solar if you have sun! PS, most people will not need an array this big. My house is 90+ years old, and consumes probably twice what an average modern house consumes, so most people would not need more than about a 10kw array. Not bragging, just showing that it can be done, and is cheaper in the long run than doing nothing. The things that are certain in live are Death, Taxes and Utilities. The one thing you can't solve is death, but you can sure reduce your taxes by 30% and eliminate utilities for the rest of your life by going solar! Bob, Wb4aPR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design (and fossil free)
Actually, in the big picture it is true - EVs consume fossil fuels. Even if all the power to operate them comes from solar, please consider: - energy to design and manufacture the vehicle, - energy and materials to provide charging infrastruture (i.e. your solar panels) - energy and materials for roads - energy wasted indirectly as a result of traffic congestion. All said, EVs are fantastic but there's no question that the best way to use less energy, including fossil fuels, is to *not* drive! Peri -- Original Message -- From: Bill Woodcock via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Robert Bruninga bruni...@usna.edu; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 15-Sep-14 8:27:15 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design (and fossil free) I track our cars' power usage and our grid-intertie solar power generation, and we generate, on an annual average, seventeen times as much as our two cars use. So we're only using hydrocarbons in so far as everything's fungible, and thirty-four other cars are using our solar power. -Bill On Sep 15, 2014, at 10:59, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: ...then no one should be driving at ALL. Even an EV derives it's power from fossil sources in one way or another. Whoaa, that is simply not true (though the right wing media would like us to believe it). Studies have shown that at least HALF of all people who purchase an EV either have solar or buy their electricity from 100% clean renewable providers such as solar or wind. And most of those that don't have that option say they WOULD if their local power company offered it. It is no coincidence that most of those people who buy EV's are also the motivated people who buy 100% clean renewable energy if they can. My EV is 100% free of fossil fuel (we have total solar at our house). We have reduced our fossil fuel energy consumption from over 3000 gallons equivalent per year down to 300. That is a 10-to-1 reduction. That last 300 gallons per year is for the Prius that we keep for trips beyond routine EV range. See a plot of how we went from 3000 gal to 300 in just the last few years (about 50% down this page:) http://aprs.org/AFM-environment.html And the amazing thing is that switching to solar and EV's is CHEAPER than just continuing to burn coal and oil to oblivion. This weekend, I just added another 3 kW array to my house for a total of 14 kW (and another 3 kW in the driveway awaiting non-honey-do time). Cost of this last 3kW (DIY) is on the order of 90 cents a watt or about $2700 including the inverter. And will generate about $500 a year in return. That is a 26% return on investment per year for the rest of my life Compare 26% ROI to savings at 1% or the stock market at 6%. And this 26% ROI will actually go UP every time the cost of energy goes up It makes no sense not to invest in solar if you have sun! PS, most people will not need an array this big. My house is 90+ years old, and consumes probably twice what an average modern house consumes, so most people would not need more than about a 10kw array. Not bragging, just showing that it can be done, and is cheaper in the long run than doing nothing. The things that are certain in live are Death, Taxes and Utilities. The one thing you can't solve is death, but you can sure reduce your taxes by 30% and eliminate utilities for the rest of your life by going solar! Bob, Wb4aPR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design (and fossil free)
On Sep 15, 2014, at 8:27 AM, Bill Woodcock via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I track our cars' power usage and our grid-intertie solar power generation, and we generate, on an annual average, seventeen times as much as our two cars use. So we're only using hydrocarbons in so far as everything's fungible, and thirty-four other cars are using our solar power. As another data point...I haven't run the numbers in detail for a while, but my solar roof generates about half as much electricity as I use -- intentionally oversized to power an EV. I don't yet have an EV, but I don't drive all that much...about 5 gallons / week on average (which, granted, works out to about a kilowatt using NIST GGE). And baseload power here comes from nuclear...despite its other problems, it doesn't (directly) consume fossil fuels nor produce atmospheric CO2. Even without the EV, I'm already well ahead of the carbon curve. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140915/9b30e7e2/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design (and fossil free)
On Sep 15, 2014, at 8:34 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Actually, in the big picture it is true - EVs consume fossil fuels. Even if all the power to operate them comes from solar, please consider: - energy to design and manufacture the vehicle, - energy and materials to provide charging infrastruture (i.e. your solar panels) - energy and materials for roads - energy wasted indirectly as a result of traffic congestion. All said, EVs are fantastic but there's no question that the best way to use less energy, including fossil fuels, is to *not* drive! Well, if we're going to go that route, the #1 thing people do that increases their carbon footprint is to have children. Waving a magic wand and swapping all passenger vehicles with electric equivalents would basically solve today's fossil fuel crisis at both ends -- production and pollution. We'd still use substantial fossil fuels in agribusiness and plastics and the like, but the excess capacity from not having to fuel passenger vehicles would greatly extend the lifetime of existing reserves and dramatically reduce pollution. If the magic wand also made all the electricity for those vehicles come from solar power, the effect would again be greatly magnified, and it would leave us in the perfect position to stop mining hydrocarbon feedstocks and start producing them from atmospheric CO2. At that point, we'd basically be home free. Complaining that EVs still consume fossil fuels is the archetypal example of making the perfect the enemy of the good. EVs use so little fossil fuels compared to ICE vehicles that EVs might as well not use any at all in comparison. ...though, regardless, we still would be much better off with a much, much, much smaller population b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140915/98e57151/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design (and fossil free)
Studies have shown that at least HALF of all people who purchase an EV either have solar or buy their electricity from 100% clean renewable providers such as solar or wind. As sales move from early adopters to the more general population, ... unless PV sales start outstripping auto sales, these numbers will drop. I don't think so. Solar is already outstripping EV sales. The annual growth in solar currently exceeds the growth in EV's and I cannot imagine any reason why this would not continue. Solar is a WINNER no matter how one looks at it. There is no downside. EV's on the other hand are not for every purpose nor for every application. SO most people can invest in solar, but not everyone can get maximum benefit from an EV.Of course LOTS of folks cannot invest in solar (they have too much shade) but they can sign up for solar from their power company. Other restricitons on solar (do not own the home) similarly affect the purchase of EV's (no place to plug in). SO I think those negative factors cancel. Bob, WB4aPR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design (and fossil free)
Actually, in the big picture it is true - EVs consume fossil fuels. Yes, I eat arsenic too (true, apple seeds) but it is unfair to generalize and say I eat arsenic. In your arguments below, you incorrectly tie the word energy to fossil fuel Even if all the power to operate them comes from solar, please consider: Yes, TRUE in the past, but NOT TRUE now and in the future: and it is the future that comes from what we do NOW. . 1 - energy to design and manufacture the vehicle, 2 - energy and materials to provide charging infrastruture (i.e. your solar panels) 3 - energy and materials for roads 4 - energy wasted indirectly as a result of traffic congestion. 1) Already Germany is up to 30% soar/wind in just a few years, this is heading for 100%. Not 0% as you imply 2) Solar passed break-even in 1980 or so. The first solar plant to generate all the electricity it took to produce the panels was in Fredrick Maryland back then. British Petroleum bought it in the last decade or so, to rip-off Maryland Tax payers by taking huge business credits and writeoffs, and then bulldozed it. 3) will improve over time. 4) EV's generally waste maybe 5% while stalled in traffic compared to a gas car. And that 5% mostly came from the sun (for the EV drivers that charge from solar, More than half and growing). All said, EVs are fantastic but there's no question that the best way to use less energy, including fossil fuels, is to *not* drive! Yes, ride a bike or a train or walk. Bob -- Original Message -- From: Bill Woodcock via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Robert Bruninga bruni...@usna.edu; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 15-Sep-14 8:27:15 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electrifying Large Vehicles converting buyers to a higher mpge design (and fossil free) I track our cars' power usage and our grid-intertie solar power generation, and we generate, on an annual average, seventeen times as much as our two cars use. So we're only using hydrocarbons in so far as everything's fungible, and thirty-four other cars are using our solar power. -Bill On Sep 15, 2014, at 10:59, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: ...then no one should be driving at ALL. Even an EV derives it's power from fossil sources in one way or another. Whoaa, that is simply not true (though the right wing media would like us to believe it). Studies have shown that at least HALF of all people who purchase an EV either have solar or buy their electricity from 100% clean renewable providers such as solar or wind. And most of those that don't have that option say they WOULD if their local power company offered it. It is no coincidence that most of those people who buy EV's are also the motivated people who buy 100% clean renewable energy if they can. My EV is 100% free of fossil fuel (we have total solar at our house). We have reduced our fossil fuel energy consumption from over 3000 gallons equivalent per year down to 300. That is a 10-to-1 reduction. That last 300 gallons per year is for the Prius that we keep for trips beyond routine EV range. See a plot of how we went from 3000 gal to 300 in just the last few years (about 50% down this page:) http://aprs.org/AFM-environment.html And the amazing thing is that switching to solar and EV's is CHEAPER than just continuing to burn coal and oil to oblivion. This weekend, I just added another 3 kW array to my house for a total of 14 kW (and another 3 kW in the driveway awaiting non-honey-do time). Cost of this last 3kW (DIY) is on the order of 90 cents a watt or about $2700 including the inverter. And will generate about $500 a year in return. That is a 26% return on investment per year for the rest of my life Compare 26% ROI to savings at 1% or the stock market at 6%. And this 26% ROI will actually go UP every time the cost of energy goes up It makes no sense not to invest in solar if you have sun! PS, most people will not need an array this big. My house is 90+ years old, and consumes probably twice what an average modern house consumes, so most people would not need more than about a 10kw array. Not bragging, just showing that it can be done, and is cheaper in the long run than doing nothing. The things that are certain in live are Death, Taxes and Utilities. The one thing you can't solve is death, but you can sure reduce your taxes by 30% and eliminate utilities for the rest of your life by going solar! Bob, Wb4aPR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http
