Re: [EVDL] Factory EV 2002 Toyota Rav4EV on the market

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Exactly.
I am running my US Electricar with Leaf packs now,
All that was needed to go from lead-acid to Lithium was program a
configuration change in the controller
To allow the higher charge and drive voltages.
I still need to pull the data from the Leaf BMS that I kept on the pack,
so that I can more accurately show 
How the packs are doing as well as to protect from
overcharge/underdischarge.
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of paul dove via
EV
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 3:35 AM
To: EVDL Administrator; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Factory EV 2002 Toyota Rav4EV on the market

That's seems extreme to me. I'm sure it would be easier just to switch
to lithium. I imagine only a few changes would be necessary the charger
would need to be switched unless one could reprogram it. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 28, 2017, at 2:55 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV
<ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> 
> I remember an EVDL member from about 20 years ago who re-converted a 
> US Electricar pickup after its inverter turned toes up.  This was well

> before the USE owner community reverse-engineered the Dolphin drive.  
> He switched over to a much more conventional -- and more easily 
> serviced -- series DC motor and controller.
> 
> I suppose you could do something similar with an aging RAV4-EV if it 
> were otherwise a goner.  In such a case I wonder if it would be worth 
> adapting a drivetrain from a wrecked Leaf.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Factory EV 2002 Toyota Rav4EV on the market

[paul dove via EV]

That's seems extreme to me. I'm sure it would be easier just to switch to 
lithium. I imagine only a few changes would be necessary the charger would need 
to be switched unless one could reprogram it. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 28, 2017, at 2:55 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> I remember an EVDL member from about 20 years ago who re-converted a US 
> Electricar pickup after its inverter turned toes up.  This was well before 
> the USE owner community reverse-engineered the Dolphin drive.  He switched 
> over to a much more conventional -- and more easily serviced -- series DC 
> motor and controller.  
> 
> I suppose you could do something similar with an aging RAV4-EV if it were 
> otherwise a goner.  In such a case I wonder if it would be worth adapting a 
> drivetrain from a wrecked Leaf.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Factory EV 2002 Toyota Rav4EV on the market

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

I remember an EVDL member from about 20 years ago who re-converted a US 
Electricar pickup after its inverter turned toes up.  This was well before 
the USE owner community reverse-engineered the Dolphin drive.  He switched 
over to a much more conventional -- and more easily serviced -- series DC 
motor and controller.  

I suppose you could do something similar with an aging RAV4-EV if it were 
otherwise a goner.  In such a case I wonder if it would be worth adapting a 
drivetrain from a wrecked Leaf.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Factory EV 2002 Toyota Rav4EV on the market

[Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield via EV]

We’re getting 40-50 miles at the moment on half the battery. As the pack
has just been put in, it’s still waking up… Eventually, I should get 70-80
miles.



[image: --]

Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield
[image: https://]about.me/aminorjourney
<https://about.me/aminorjourney?promo=email_sig>

On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 5:07 PM, Lawrence Rhodes <primobass...@sbcglobal.net
> wrote:

> You would have to find a Leaf in the junk yard.  Have someone with the
> technical skills to fit the battery in the RAV then hardware hack till it
> works.  Doable but it would be a project and a half.  What is your range
> down to?  It is just a matter of time before you convert or sell.  It will
> always be worth something.  The drive train will last a long time.  Not the
> battery.  Lawrence Rhodes
>
>
> --
> *From:* Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield <ni...@littlecollie.com>
> *To:* Lawrence Rhodes <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>; Electric Vehicle
> Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 27, 2017 5:00 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [EVDL] Factory EV 2002 Toyota Rav4EV on the market
>
> If anyone wants to offer… I’ve got a 2002 RAV4 EV that’s my daily driver
> ;)
>
>
>
> [image: --]
>
> Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield
> [image: https://]about.me/aminorjourney
> <https://about.me/aminorjourney?promo=email_sig>
>
> On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org
> > wrote:
>
> The rav4 would make a great conversion using a Leaf 30kw battery.  You
> would have to disable all the computers though.  Good luck.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Factory EV 2002 Toyota Rav4EV on the market

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Not disable - just simulate some things.
I am quite sure that a small controller and a string of resistors will be 
sufficient to integrate a Leaf pack into a RAV4,
NOTE though that the voltage levels are different, so either you go for a 
reduced capacity (from the Leaf) by not installing all modules in the RAV
Or you take 1.5 Leaf pack worth to shoe-horn into the RAV.
It is relatively easy to trick the Leaf BMS and I expect that the RAV computers 
can equally be tricked into cooperating with the Leaf pack,
Even allowing the occasional "overcharge" that the RAV seems to force onto the 
pack, to happen without problem for the Leaf pack.
It is all a matter of seeing what the car does - apply higher voltage for a 
fixed time (independent from actual drawn current)
Then implement a fail-safe into the Leaf pack that at a certain max charging 
voltage, the pack is disengaged from direct contact, only still connected via a 
charging resistor (similar to when pre-charging) so there is still some current 
drawn, but the charge is not progressing more than a small fraction from that 
point. For BMS faking: add a stringof resistor dividers to give the car's BMS 
the voltages it wants to see, independent of actual cell voltages.
Then there is the trick to fake the Leaf BMS - not difficult, just a small 
circuit.
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2017 4:55 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org; ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Factory EV 2002 Toyota Rav4EV on the market

The rav4 would make a great conversion using a Leaf 30kw battery.  You would 
have to disable all the computers though.  Good luck.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Factory EV 2002 Toyota Rav4EV on the market

[Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield via EV]

If anyone wants to offer… I’ve got a 2002 RAV4 EV that’s my daily driver ;)



[image: --]

Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield
[image: https://]about.me/aminorjourney


On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

> The rav4 would make a great conversion using a Leaf 30kw battery.  You
> would have to disable all the computers though.  Good luck.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Factory EV 2002 Toyota Rav4EV on the market

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

The rav4 would make a great conversion using a Leaf 30kw battery.  You would 
have to disable all the computers though.  Good luck.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Factory EV 2002 Toyota Rav4EV on the market

[Ed Blackmond via EV]

> On Apr 26, 2017, at 9:14 AM, Willie via EV  wrote:
>  ... It astonishes me that anyone with an understanding of what happened 
> would even consider buying a GM vehicle.

I understand exactly how you feel. I had to do some serious soul searching 
before I bought my Chevrolet Bolt, but I'm glad I did. This is an incredible 
car. Far better than the Honda EVPlus I was able to drive during the six years 
of the first CARB zero emission mandate. And the Nissan Leaf isn't even in the 
same league much less the same ballpark.

Chevrolet seems to have some limited commitment to this car. It is currently 
available across much of the country and will be available everywhere by 
sometime this fall. They are training dealers to support it and seem very 
responsive to early production issues.

This car would work perfectly for the way you use your EVs. If you are ever out 
in Silicon Valley and want to take it for a ride, let me know.

Ed
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Re: [EVDL] Factory EV 2002 Toyota Rav4EV on the market

[Willie via EV]

On 04/26/2017 10:30 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:



NiMH doesn't have as high a specific energy as lithium, but it still makes a
pretty good EV battery -- or would have, if not for Chevron/Cobasys large
battery patent encumbering literally prohibiting the manufacure of modules
large enough to work in road EVs.  And here again we also see Panasonic's


As I understand the story told by WKTEC, you have glossed over GM's 
culpability in setting back the development of EVs by 10+ years.  The 
Stan  guy sold his NiMH IP to GM with the understanding 
that it would be used in EVs.  Instead, GM sold the IP to parties it 
knew would kill the EV use.  It astonishes me that anyone with an 
understanding of what happened would even consider buying a GM vehicle.

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Re: [EVDL] Factory EV 2002 Toyota Rav4EV on the market

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 25 Apr 2017 at 16:49, fred ungewitter via EV wrote:

> ... nickel metal hydride, "antique" technology to be sure, but quite a
> development when it appeared on the market, prior to being squelched. 

Anyone who's used good quality NiMH cells in a flashlight or camera knows 
how stable and long-lived they are.  (I have some that I've been cycling 
since 2006 with essentially no decline in capacity.)

What's more, the Panasonic modules Toyota used for the RAV4-EV were 
uncommonly high quality batteries.  They have a reputation for routinely 
lasting well over 100k miles in those EVs.

NiMH doesn't have as high a specific energy as lithium, but it still makes a 
pretty good EV battery -- or would have, if not for Chevron/Cobasys large 
battery patent encumbering literally prohibiting the manufacure of modules 
large enough to work in road EVs.  And here again we also see Panasonic's 
nose under the door, because Stan Ovshinsky's patent suit against Panasonic 
didn't help adoption either.  Together these developments hobbled large NiMH 
batteries for EVs, and kept them from reaching any significant economy of 
scale.  

As I understand it (someone please correct me if this is wrong), most of the 
encumbering patents have finally expired.  A couple of years ago (2015) it 
was all over the EV blogs that BASF was working on improving NiMH's specific 
energy.  Their pie-in-the-sky claim was that they could raise it tenfold.  
That's frankly incredible (by which I mean "not believeable").  However, 
even a doiubling or tripling of SE would make NiMH competitive with lithium 
batteries, especially if they retained their well-known longevity and 
safety.  Alas, I've heard nothing more about BASF's work since then; has 
anyone else?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Factory EV 2002 Toyota Rav4EV on the market

[fred ungewitter via EV]

I've recently learned from a post made on eBay by another Rav4EV owner that
the pack is approximately 27kw.  My off-the-cuff calculations of 288v
nominal and 98 ah batteries suggest that the post is missing correct
nomenclature. I'm not sure I'm using the right numbers and terminology
either.  The voltage climbs over 300 during charging, although I can't
recall how high. 24 batteries in the pack, nickel metal hydride, "antique"
technology to be sure, but quite a development when it appeared on the
market, prior to being squelched.

I'm amused about the 300,000 mile claim in the eBay advertisement. That
must have been one perfectly treated battery pack, perhaps never charged
beyond 80 percent and kept in a cool, dry place all the time.

The one in the eBay posting is in California, already at more than thirteen
hundred bucks. I'll be surprised if it goes over five grand and if someone
handed me five big ones today, they'd have it in a blink.

Because I'm a light-footed driver, I've been able to manage five miles or
better per kilowatt-hour, 200 watt-hours per mile?  I think that was the
calculation. The Palm m55 running Rav4Info shows current draw, voltage of
the pack (min, max, avg) and other useful pieces of data. I think one of
the data points is amp-hours. By using regen even on flat ground, I usually
brought back as much as 20 percent of the energy I used. The Rav4Info shows
that as well.

You won't have a problem with finding space in the pack to put the lithium
chemistry batteries, but my understanding is the car computers, locked to
Toyota proprietary communications, will not cooperate in such a conversion.
The charge profile is substantially different, especially every tenth full
charge, as it would saturate the lithium pack to the point of destruction.
A picture will be available for one week here:
http://picpaste.com/IMG_5868.JPG

Parts are pretty much a thing of the past. I had to purchase two used
temperature sensors from BatteryMD in order to replace the failed one. I
discovered that this particular pack was rebuilt with Ford Ranger EV
batteries, identical except for the sensors. Not a single retail dealer had
the item in stock or could order it. There's a similar model on eBay
listing for three grand with a failed inverter. That's a heck of a lot of
money for a non-driver, although if parted out, might be recoverable. I
believe the controller and DC/DC inverter are integrated into the
under-hood suitcase, a water cooled heat sink and RF enclosure. There are
at least two computers in the vehicle and a couple of ancillary devices in
the pack. If any of those fancy boxes give up the ghost, one has a very
attractive storage unit on wheels, or a really comfortable dog house.

There is a valuable resource in the Rav4EV mailing list. A quick google
search for that term will lead you to the list and the archive. We have
replaced the two legacy Rav4EVs ('02, '03) with two contemporary Rav4EVs
(2013 x 2) because there's nothing else out there like them. Plenty of
cargo capacity, comfortable transportation.

Transport to the west coast, from which this vehicle originated, can be
about US$1200. Funny story told by the Russian transport driver when this
vehicle arrived. (Read in Russian accent, of course):

I go to depot, ask for keys, ask if driving. Am told yes, is driving.
I get in car, turn key, nothing! Try again, again, nothing!
Go in depot (angrily), tell them, Car not driving!
Depot man tells me, is electric car, turn key, go!

For this vehicle and the next one to be put on the market, turn key, go!

If I don't sell them, they become dog houses and a crap-load of solar
battery storage for our panels. That's going to cost us big bucks though,
to wire them in and keep the current grid-tie system working properly. More
likely to end up disassembled, parted out and given to the scrap metal
hauler who trolls our neighborhood.



Original Message: 7

> Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 10:50:35 -0700 (PDT)
> From: tomw via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Factory EV 2002 Toyota Rav4EV on the market
> Message-ID: <1493142635135-4686516.p...@n4.nabble.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Do you know the battery pack capacity in Wh or Ah? If Ah, do you know the
> nominal pack voltage? Sorry if I just missed it in your ad description.
> Also would be nice if you knew Wh/mile or Ah/mile that it uses at a speed
> around 45 mph. Looks like it is in great condition inside and out,
> unfortunately I'm out west, so expensive to ship it here. Also would be
> nice
> if you had a photo of the battery pack to give an idea how much space there
> is to replace it with new Li-based batteries.  One more thing, what about
> parts and technical info sources if the controller, DC/DC, etc, fails?
>
> Thanks
>

End of original message.
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Re: [EVDL] Factory EV 2002 Toyota Rav4EV on the market

[tomw via EV]

Do you know the battery pack capacity in Wh or Ah? If Ah, do you know the
nominal pack voltage? Sorry if I just missed it in your ad description. 
Also would be nice if you knew Wh/mile or Ah/mile that it uses at a speed
around 45 mph. Looks like it is in great condition inside and out,
unfortunately I'm out west, so expensive to ship it here. Also would be nice
if you had a photo of the battery pack to give an idea how much space there
is to replace it with new Li-based batteries.  One more thing, what about
parts and technical info sources if the controller, DC/DC, etc, fails?

Thanks

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