Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
Also, the Prius uses a drive chain from the power split device to a shaft carrying a gear which drives the diff. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV Sent: Thursday, 7 August 2014 5:18 a.m. To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain? EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: Ben, autos stopped using chain or belt drives 80 years ago ... Well, lots of cars still have timing chains. They last longer than belts. :-) -- We cannot waste time. We can only waste ourselves. -- George Matthew Adams -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
On Aug 5, 2014, at 3:26 PM, Roger Stockton via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Ben Goren wrote: The AC-51s use 6207-2RS bearings; my main job is to research their side loading capacity. However, Bill says there're a number of side-loaded AC- 35s out there, and that he thinks I'm probably okay -- though, of course, I need to confirm that. If anybody can suggest a good way to put some numbers to that, I'd appreciate it. Not sure if it helps, but here is a specific example of a pair of HPEVs AC-31s installed in a side-loaded arrangement: http://evalbum.com/4283 Very interesting! That exact design won't work, as I'm keeping the V8 -- but the basic geometry is very similar to what I have in mind. Basically, I'll be driving pulleys directly on the driveshaft rather than an intermediate gear, and relying on smaller pulleys on the motors than those on the driveshaft to get the gear ratio. The exact pulleys will depend on the gearing I decide on for the V8 Regarding putting numbers on the acceptable side load, or conversely, on the life of the bearing under a given load condition, this Timken calculator might be useful: http://www.timken.com/EN-US/Knowledge/engineers/Pages/BearingLife.aspx Your 6207 crosses dimensionally to Timken's 207W, MM207K, and MMC207K ball bearings; of these, the 207W seems to have higher rated life. On this page, click 'Select Type' and select BB from the list, then enter 207W into the part number box and click 'Lookup'. After this you can enter radial and axial loads and speed values and hit 'Calculate' to see the effect on fatigue life. Thanks for that. I'm not sure I'm understanding the math right, but I *think* Harley belt drives are supposed to be tensioned to 10 lbf. I think I'm reasonably sure that I've got the order of magnitude right, at least. Using 10 lbf radial, 100 lbf axial (the motor's torque rating), and 5000 RPM, I get a rating of close to 2 million hours. Just for giggles, if I make it 100 lbf for both, it still has about a million hours rating. Any chance you can tell me if I've at least got the right order of magnitude? If so, I'm not going to worry. Even if it only has a 10,000 hour lifespan, that's still over half a million miles at freeway speeds. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140805/15c63108/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
Dear Lee and Cor, thank you both for the clarification. Ben's original question deserved an answer and I popped in with a commutator which was probably way out on foul territory. I am under the impression that an AC-51 is a variable reluctance type AC Motor and I have yet to have one to fail. As for the side thrust on the bearings of the motor from the chain and sprocket or belt and pulley drive, If there is genuine concern, what if he puts a second sprocket or pulley on the motor shaft and adds an idler to the opposite side of the motor from the driveshaft and let the idler relieve the stress on the bearing from the main belt or chain leading to the tailshaft of the transmission. (Ben, autos stopped using chain or belt drives 80 years ago, I like using the 4WD transfer case with the 2::1 low range for in town and 1::1 on highway coupled with the stock 3.0::1 in the rear axle differential. With the gearing Ben could avoid the second electric motor, and buy more batteries. But it is your decision, Ben. Dennis Lee Miles (*evprofes...@evprofessor.com evprofes...@evprofessor.com)* * Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.* *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)* *Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!* * You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss * *NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8 http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8 On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 1:35 AM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Dennis, Depends how the rotor is built, there is significant stress on it, not just the bearings. My previous EV had a Hughes induction (AC) motor with a 9,000 RPM redline and I believe that at that speed, the rotor surface is going about 300 km/h (200 MPH) in a thight 1/2 ft circle, so the centrifugal forces on that rotor surface are enormous, at some point it will litterally be pulled apart by the force that wants to let it fly in a straight line instead of turning a 1/2 ft circle at a third of the speed of sound. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Miles via EV Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 7:58 PM To: Lee Hart; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain? Lee, I must be too young to have seen those, or else I did not have one fail because they were stronger. The other question is how does it damage the AC motor to over speed and why does a speed limiter in the controller/inverter cause damage as was indicated in the discussion? The AC motor doesn't have a commutator, or windings on the rotor so what is the harm in driving the motor to more than 8,000 rpm? All I can conceive are bearing stresses. Dennis Lee Miles (*evprofes...@evprofessor.com evprofes...@evprofessor.com)* * Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.* *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)* *Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!* * You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss * *NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8 http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8 On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 7:43 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Dennis Miles via EV wrote: David, and others, the most fragile part, of a series DC motor, is the commutator. And that is, because the copper segments are glued to an insulating core. When the current is flowing, the segments heat up and soften the glue, then they are subjecting to lifting, away from that insulating core, and causing problems with the brushes, resulting a need for an extensive repair. But, with no (or very low) current, the glue maintains its strength, and the motor can be spun to a higher RPM, without damage. Relatively new DC motors are built with commutator bars that are glued in place. Older and heavy-duty motors instead have steel commutators that don't depend on glue to to hold the bars. Instead, there are steel rings at each end hold in the bars. They use mica or other materials to insulate the bars. This type of commutator is much stronger, and better able to withstand high temperatures and high RPMs. Here's one image I could quickly find: http://www.iccinternational.com/resource/vring.html -- We cannot waste time. We can only waste ourselves. -- George Matthew Adams -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
Dennis; The motor I have for my 72 Vega has a Steel V Ring Commutator. Can you educate us on the differences between this motor and a normal ADV or Warp DC motor. Thanks; Dennis Elsberry, MO http://www.evalbum.com/1366 http://evalbum.com/3715 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Miles via EV Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 2:47 PM To: EVDL Administrator; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain? David, and others, the most fragile part, of a series DC motor, is the commutator. And that is, because the copper segments are glued to an insulating core. When the current is flowing, the segments heat up and soften the glue, then they are subjecting to lifting, away from that insulating core, and causing problems with the brushes, resulting a need for an extensive repair. But, with no (or very low) current, the glue maintains its strength, and the motor can be spun to a higher RPM, without damage. PS. added a new You Tube Link (Below) Dennis Lee Miles (*evprofes...@evprofessor.com evprofes...@evprofessor.com)* * Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.* *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)* *Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!* * You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss * *NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8 http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8 On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 5:25 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 4 Aug 2014 at 18:14, Ben Goren via EV wrote: He says it's okay to spin the motors faster than 8000 RPM so long as it's not the controller that's sending the current to the motors that's doing the spinning. I wonder why this would be. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140805/05c618f3/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
Dennis Looks like Lee already answered this, unless you have anything further to add. Thanks Lee; Dennis Elsberry, MO http://www.evalbum.com/1366 http://evalbum.com/3715 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Pestka, Dennis J via EV Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 6:52 AM To: Dennis Miles; Electric Vehicle Discussion List; EVDL Administrator Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain? Dennis; The motor I have for my 72 Vega has a Steel V Ring Commutator. Can you educate us on the differences between this motor and a normal ADV or Warp DC motor. Thanks; Dennis Elsberry, MO http://www.evalbum.com/1366 http://evalbum.com/3715 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Miles via EV Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 2:47 PM To: EVDL Administrator; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain? David, and others, the most fragile part, of a series DC motor, is the commutator. And that is, because the copper segments are glued to an insulating core. When the current is flowing, the segments heat up and soften the glue, then they are subjecting to lifting, away from that insulating core, and causing problems with the brushes, resulting a need for an extensive repair. But, with no (or very low) current, the glue maintains its strength, and the motor can be spun to a higher RPM, without damage. PS. added a new You Tube Link (Below) Dennis Lee Miles (*evprofes...@evprofessor.com evprofes...@evprofessor.com)* * Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.* *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)* *Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!* * You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss * *NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8 http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8 On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 5:25 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 4 Aug 2014 at 18:14, Ben Goren via EV wrote: He says it's okay to spin the motors faster than 8000 RPM so long as it's not the controller that's sending the current to the motors that's doing the spinning. I wonder why this would be. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140805/05c618f3/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
Dennis Miles wrote:
{Ben, autos stopped using chain or belt
drives 80 years ago, I like using the 4WD transfer case with the 2::1 low
range for in town and 1::1 on highway coupled with the stock 3.0::1 in the
rear axle differential.
I realise it isn't quite what you meant, and I don't profess to profess to be
an expert on modern transfer cases, but those I am familiar with (which are
less than 80yrs old ;^), have contained a chain drive running in an oil bath.
While a transfer case would be an elegant way to reduce the custom fabrication
required, it won't necessarily avoid the use of a chain drive.
Cheers,
Roger.
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Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
On 6 Aug 2014 at 3:37, Dennis Miles via EV wrote: Ben, autos stopped using chain or belt drives 80 years ago ... Thank goodness! Imagine having to crawl under your car to clean and lube the chain every month or so. That's something to think about for this Mustang hybrid conversion - how will you lube the chains, Ben? Curiously, one limited exception is/was early Solectria Force EVs. They used an exposed cogged belt between the motor and transaxle. Sales were on the order of a few hundred, though, so you could hardly call it a mass- produced automobile. There are a scant few others. I think one version of the Toyota Prius (2004-2009?) has a chain and sprockets somewhere in the PSD (driving the differential?). It's fully enclosed, however, so it's maintenance-free. I've never heard of one failing. Depending on how you define chain or belt drive, another exception might be the FWD Oldsmobile Toronado (correct spelling) introduced in 1966, and still on offer into the early 1990s. It had a fully enclosed chain between the torque converter and transmission. The transmission was mounted next to the engine, facing backward, driving the front wheels. The same folded front wheel drive system was also used in a Cadillac model, and in some GM RVs. FWIW, I don't know of any Toros that have ever been converted to EVs. It would be quite a challenge. They were monsters, very large and heavy, and I don't see any way you could replace that customized automatic with a manual. The Corbin Sparrow / Myers NMG EV also had/has a belt drive to the rear wheel, but that's really classified as a motorcycle, so I guess it doesn't count. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
Ben Goren wrote: Very interesting! That exact design won't work, as I'm keeping the V8 -- but the basic geometry is very similar to what I have in mind. Understood; I was thinking that it might be easier to modify the combiner output shaft to be double-ended so that one side attaches to the tranny output and the (shortened) driveshaft attaches to the other, possibly with the torque combiner bolting right up to the tranny much like some transfer cases do. Thanks for that. I'm not sure I'm understanding the math right, but I *think* Harley belt drives are supposed to be tensioned to 10 lbf. I think I'm reasonably sure that I've got the order of magnitude right, at least. Using 10 lbf radial, 100 lbf axial (the motor's torque rating), and 5000 RPM, I get a rating of close to 2 million hours. Just for giggles, if I make it 100 lbf for both, it still has about a million hours rating. Any chance you can tell me if I've at least got the right order of magnitude? If so, I'm not going to worry. Even if it only has a 10,000 hour lifespan, that's still over half a million miles at freeway speeds. Sorry; I'm an EE, not ME ;^ I suspect that it is not just the static load of the belt tension, but the tension added to one side of the belt/chain when the motor is delivering torque. I would not use the peak torque load, but the typical cruising condition; perhaps estimate RPM and HP required at 40mph and then figure out how much tension is added to the tension side of the belt under that torque load. Cheers, Roger. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
On Aug 6, 2014, at 9:02 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 6 Aug 2014 at 3:37, Dennis Miles via EV wrote: Ben, autos stopped using chain or belt drives 80 years ago ... Thank goodness! Imagine having to crawl under your car to clean and lube the chain every month or so. That's something to think about for this Mustang hybrid conversion - how will you lube the chains, Ben? That's why I'm (still tentatively) planning not on a chain but an Harley-style Gilmer (toothed) belt. No lubrication required (or desired). Belt tension needs to be checked every so often -- likely about as often as the V8 will need oil changes. Harleys get as many miles out of their belts as aircooled VW Busses get out of their engines, with no more maintenance than occasional tension adjustments. Mechanical efficiency is good, too, within an hair's breadth of a chain in an oil bath. I'm also figuring there'll be some sheet metal beneath the motors to protect them from road debris, with the front and rear shaped to create an air scoop for cooling. Put a grille and filter in the front and call it a day -- with that kind of protection from the road, assuming proper sizing, the belts should last much longer than on a motorcycle (where the belts are often partially exposed). See here for an article with photos discussing the pros and cons of each drive system: http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2008/05/08may08_chainsvbelt/ Cheers, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140806/8ca2048b/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
On Aug 6, 2014, at 9:06 AM, Roger Stockton via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Ben Goren wrote: Very interesting! That exact design won't work, as I'm keeping the V8 -- but the basic geometry is very similar to what I have in mind. Understood; I was thinking that it might be easier to modify the combiner output shaft to be double-ended so that one side attaches to the tranny output and the (shortened) driveshaft attaches to the other, possibly with the torque combiner bolting right up to the tranny much like some transfer cases do. I'll have to think about that. Again, my initial thought is just to put the pulleys on some sort of custom-machined shaft that sits between the transmission output and the U-joint. Any chance you can tell me if I've at least got the right order of magnitude? If so, I'm not going to worry. Even if it only has a 10,000 hour lifespan, that's still over half a million miles at freeway speeds. Sorry; I'm an EE, not ME ;^ And I'm neither! I suspect that it is not just the static load of the belt tension, but the tension added to one side of the belt/chain when the motor is delivering torque. That was my initial thought, too...until late yesterday evening when I was doing a bunch of research on it. And, if I'm understanding it correctly, all that putting a load on the system does is move the direction of the force, but not its magnitude -- and for a reason that makes sense: when you pull on the one side, you increase tension on that side...but you also _decrease_ tension on the opposite side by the same amount. So, instead of the (say) ten pounds being applied towards the axle of the opposite pulley, the same ten pounds is now applied on a different angle. I would not use the peak torque load, but the typical cruising condition I started with that, but also figured that it wouldn't hurt to get pessimistic with the estimation. If even the worst-case scenario is acceptable, I should be in good shape. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140806/beea463a/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
On Aug 6, 2014, at 12:37 AM, Dennis Miles via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: With the gearing Ben could avoid the second electric motor, and buy more batteries. But it is your decision, Ben. I do like the idea from a mechanical elegance perspective...but the second motor also gives more oomph and doesn't cost all that much more than a transfer case. Indeed, the twin AC-51s have specs on paper that're naively a close match to the stock 260, meaning all-electric mode should be a significant upgrade over original...whereas a single motor, especially with limited gearing, would likely be perfectly drivable but also sluggish. Plus, with stock Harley pulleys, the twin motors will have a 5.7:1 total gear ratio that's slightly more optimal than a 6:1 ratio. ...and, with the V8 still up front and the gas tank still in the rear, I'm already concerned about where to cram the batteries as it is. 46 CALB 100 Ah cells or their equivalent are going to take up a lot of space. I will write this, though: your suggestion has got me thinking of putting a front wheel drive axle (with appropriate reduction gearing) in my '68 VW Westfalia and driving it with an electric motor to create a through-the-wheels hybrid as a next project after the Mustang. Targeting a similar all-electric range and matching the (much) lower power of the aircooled engine would likely make for a pretty sweet setup there. Probably simpler and much cheaper, too; smaller everything, and no need to interface with the existing drive system. Plus, all-wheel-drive could tempt me to get stuck in some truly inaccessible spot atop a lonely mountain in the middle of nowhere Cheers, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140806/c7767bfb/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: Ben, autos stopped using chain or belt drives 80 years ago ... Well, lots of cars still have timing chains. They last longer than belts. :-) -- We cannot waste time. We can only waste ourselves. -- George Matthew Adams -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
Ben Goren wrote: I suspect that it is not just the static load of the belt tension, but the tension added to one side of the belt/chain when the motor is delivering torque. That was my initial thought, too...until late yesterday evening when I was doing a bunch of research on it. And, if I'm understanding it correctly, all that putting a load on the system does is move the direction of the force, but not its magnitude -- and for a reason that makes sense: when you pull on the one side, you increase tension on that side...but you also _decrease_ tension on the opposite side by the same amount. So, instead of the (say) ten pounds being applied towards the axle of the opposite pulley, the same ten pounds is now applied on a different angle. I believe you are mistaken. I think what you need to consider is termed overhung load; this Gates document gives a good overview: http://www.gates.com/~/media/Files/Gates/Industrial/Power%20Transmission/White%20Papers/Overhung%20Load.pdf Near the bottom of this document it mentions belt tension and notes that the static tension is really just to counter the centrifugal forces that come into play as the belt rotates rapidly and tend to throw it outwards and neutralise some of the installation tension that is intended to ensure the belt teeth remain in intimate contact with the sprocket. Page 168 of this document describes the calculation of overhung load, which is based on the HP being transmitted, the RPM, and the diameter of the sprocket: http://www.gates.com/~/media/Files/Gates/Industrial/Power%20Transmission/Manuals/PowerGripDriveDesignManual_17195_2014.pdf Unfortunately, there are a couple of factors in the calculation that are assumed to be provided by the manufacturer of the speed reducer you are using, so unless you can get these factors from HPEVs or the manufacturer of the AC-51, you'll need to do a bit of research to determine sensible ballpark values to use for your situation. Cheers, Roger. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
On Aug 6, 2014, at 1:25 PM, Roger Stockton via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I believe you are mistaken. I think what you need to consider is termed overhung load; this Gates document gives a good overview: Roger, thanks for that excellent resource. Obviously, I'm not an ME...but I'm sure getting a crash course in a tiny subset of the field. The document suggests that reducing belt width, increasing pulley diameter (even while keeping gear ratios constant between the two pulleys), and moving the belt closer to the bearing all reduce overhung load. Since I'm starting from scratch with this, I should have no trouble optimizing all three if need be. In particular, it looks like it shouldn't be any trouble getting the pulleys practically right on top of the bearing. The document also ends with a sidebar saying they've got belts with the same geometries as chains that also have the same load ratings with better life and maintenance. I'm thinking it'd be a good idea to see if I can't find somebody at Gates to help me run some numbers and suggest part specifications. I'd almost undoubtedly use their belts (I just replaced the disintegrating fan belt on the Mustang with a Gates belt). I'm not sure that they also make pulleys...but, if they do, that'd be the obvious choice rather than some other manufacturer or a machine shop. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140806/6bea57e6/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
Chains are very efficient. If you enclose them and they have lubrication, they last a very long time. They are also relatively inexpensive, and lend themselves easily to changing ratios. I suppose their main bad point is noise, and the need for an adjusting idler to keep noise low. But adjusting idlers are also not terribly expensive and quite reliable. I was very happy when Camry's changed from toothed timing belts to chains. I loved the little mid-'80s Camry's, but they had to have a new belt every 30K miles like clockwork. Good thing they did not crash their valves into pistons, because they would have had much trouble had they been interference engines, On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Aug 6, 2014, at 1:25 PM, Roger Stockton via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I believe you are mistaken. I think what you need to consider is termed overhung load; this Gates document gives a good overview: Roger, thanks for that excellent resource. Obviously, I'm not an ME...but I'm sure getting a crash course in a tiny subset of the field. The document suggests that reducing belt width, increasing pulley diameter (even while keeping gear ratios constant between the two pulleys), and moving the belt closer to the bearing all reduce overhung load. Since I'm starting from scratch with this, I should have no trouble optimizing all three if need be. In particular, it looks like it shouldn't be any trouble getting the pulleys practically right on top of the bearing. The document also ends with a sidebar saying they've got belts with the same geometries as chains that also have the same load ratings with better life and maintenance. I'm thinking it'd be a good idea to see if I can't find somebody at Gates to help me run some numbers and suggest part specifications. I'd almost undoubtedly use their belts (I just replaced the disintegrating fan belt on the Mustang with a Gates belt). I'm not sure that they also make pulleys...but, if they do, that'd be the obvious choice rather than some other manufacturer or a machine shop. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140806/6bea57e6/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140806/dfa284a6/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
On Aug 6, 2014, at 3:23 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I'm thinking it'd be a good idea to see if I can't find somebody at Gates to help me run some numbers and suggest part specifications. I'd almost undoubtedly use their belts (I just replaced the disintegrating fan belt on the Mustang with a Gates belt). I'm not sure that they also make pulleys...but, if they do, that'd be the obvious choice rather than some other manufacturer or a machine shop. A bit more investigation revealed this: http://www.gates.com/products/industrial/industrial-belts/made-to-order-metals Assuming it's not insanely expensive, that's almost certainly the right answer...for my current-leading geometry idea of mounting the motors to the side and using them to spin the driveshaft. I'll give 'em a call tomorrow b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140806/28664c8f/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
If you go to a dealer that handles power transmission items, such as belts, cog belts, High Tension belts, cog belts pulleys, chain drives, taper locks, and etc. They can bring up a computer drawing of the correct belt type and belt contact angles rated for the rpm torque and HP. They did this for me and was subjected for my installation, is to have a opposing belt in the opposite direction of each other or a continuous belt place on 3 or 4 pulleys 60 to 90 degrees of each other to reduce the bearing load of the drive unit. Also there is a certain amount of belt contact to the pulley surfaces, to maintain the torque and horsepower needed. I install this system in 1980 and still running it today even with the same industrial power belts. Roland - Original Message - From: Ben Goren via EVmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org To: Roger Stocktonmailto:rstock...@delta-q.com ; Electric Vehicle Discussion Listmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 4:23 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain? On Aug 6, 2014, at 1:25 PM, Roger Stockton via EV ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I believe you are mistaken. I think what you need to consider is termed overhung load; this Gates document gives a good overview: Roger, thanks for that excellent resource. Obviously, I'm not an ME...but I'm sure getting a crash course in a tiny subset of the field. The document suggests that reducing belt width, increasing pulley diameter (even while keeping gear ratios constant between the two pulleys), and moving the belt closer to the bearing all reduce overhung load. Since I'm starting from scratch with this, I should have no trouble optimizing all three if need be. In particular, it looks like it shouldn't be any trouble getting the pulleys practically right on top of the bearing. The document also ends with a sidebar saying they've got belts with the same geometries as chains that also have the same load ratings with better life and maintenance. I'm thinking it'd be a good idea to see if I can't find somebody at Gates to help me run some numbers and suggest part specifications. I'd almost undoubtedly use their belts (I just replaced the disintegrating fan belt on the Mustang with a Gates belt). I'm not sure that they also make pulleys...but, if they do, that'd be the obvious choice rather than some other manufacturer or a machine shop. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140806/6bea57e6/attachment.pgphttp://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140806/6bea57e6/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140806/6a7295cd/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
On Aug 6, 2014, at 5:27 PM, Roland e...@msn.com wrote: They did this for me and was subjected for my installation, is to have a opposing belt in the opposite direction of each other or a continuous belt place on 3 or 4 pulleys 60 to 90 degrees of each other to reduce the bearing load of the drive unit. ...so...for example, from one side to the other, there'd be a pulley that just spins, one electric motor, the drive shaft, the other electric motor, and another pulley that just spins? And the bearings on the outer pulleys would either be rated for the load and / or would be considered consumable? Makes sense. But I'll see if I can't find a decent ME (perhaps at Gates Made-to-Order Metals) to design it Thanks, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140806/caaf0f1c/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
The increase rpm of a motor may happen while not pressing on the accelerator, is when I coasting down a hill with the transmission in gear. When I was working, my daily trip was a 10.4 miles around trip to work each day. The road was a roller coaster type which has a 3 mile mild up slope and than a very steep 2 miles at the end of the hill. This was with a battery pack that weigh 3000 lbs of 300 ah batteries charge up to 252 volts. I could get up to 70 mph on the gentile roller coaster 3 mile approach to the last 2 miles, and maintain the same accelerator pressure up this hill which would slow to 35 mph which was the right speed to inner the exit. Coming down this hill, I allow the motor to get up to 6000 rpm going down the first 2 miles getting up to 85 mph which develops enough inertial to propelled the EV for the next 3 miles right into my garage without any additional power from the motor controller. Roland - Original Message - From: EVDL Administrator via EVmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion Listmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 3:25 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain? On 4 Aug 2014 at 18:14, Ben Goren via EV wrote: He says it's okay to spin the motors faster than 8000 RPM so long as it's not the controller that's sending the current to the motors that's doing the spinning. I wonder why this would be. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140805/73bb8054/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
On Aug 5, 2014, at 2:25 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 4 Aug 2014 at 18:14, Ben Goren via EV wrote: He says it's okay to spin the motors faster than 8000 RPM so long as it's not the controller that's sending the current to the motors that's doing the spinning. I wonder why this would be. Bill said that the 8000 redline was a limitation of the (Curtis 1239-8501) controllers, and not a mechanical limit of the motor itself. He suggested that the controller might or might not behave gracefully if the motor was spun past 8000 RPM, but that there's no problem in having a powered-down motor and controller spin faster. Still, the math works out such that a roughly 5.7:1 overall gear ratio for the electric motors puts the 5000 RPM peak of the power and torque curves right at 65 mph with a top speed of about 105 mph at 8000 RPM. I'm having an hard time imagining wanting to go that fast any time soon. If I ever want to go faster, at that point I can worry about changing gearing, or getting fancy with GEVCU, or upgrading controllers or motors or whatever other expensive or insane option catches my fancy. I was more interested in the question in terms of targeting an even lower gear ratio; what if that 8000 RPM were at, say, 70 mph, putting the motor's entire RPM range within almost all daily driving conditions -- and then I wanted to do a cross-country trip on some roads with 85 mph limits? Would spinning the motors to 10,000 RPM or more be a problem if I was in all-V8 mode? But that would mean that the motors would be well past their optimum 5000 RPM on the freeway at 65 mph. For a car meant primarily for surface streets with little intention of freeway driving -- the typical urban subcompact, say -- that gearing would be ideal...but not for something in a sprawling Western metropolis where you can drive over 70 miles in a straight line on the freeway and still be in the same metropolitan area (Apache Junction to Buckeye). Again, in my case, the electric motors will be mostly powered down for that sort of extended freeway driving, but there're still plenty of shorter trips where the freeway makes sense for all-electric mode...and why spin the motors so fast for no good reason anyway? The next challenge for me is going to be to pick ideal gearing for the V8. Since the electric motors are going to have all kinds of torque from zero to 65, I'm thinking this is going to be a somewhat unusual situation for a daily driver where it'll make sense to optimize the V8 not for low-end torque but for high-end power and torque -- taller gearing than one would otherwise recommend. That's also going to carry over to decisions for the rebuild of the V8 itself -- heads, intake, exhaust, all that stuff. The more I think about it, the more I'm surprised that this type of hybrid isn't already popular in the racing world. Use electric motors for low-end torque, and ICE engines for high-end power, each optimized for its own part of the spectrum. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140805/8d66f4c9/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
David, and others, the most fragile part, of a series DC motor, is the commutator. And that is, because the copper segments are glued to an insulating core. When the current is flowing, the segments heat up and soften the glue, then they are subjecting to lifting, away from that insulating core, and causing problems with the brushes, resulting a need for an extensive repair. But, with no (or very low) current, the glue maintains its strength, and the motor can be spun to a higher RPM, without damage. PS. added a new You Tube Link (Below) Dennis Lee Miles (*evprofes...@evprofessor.com evprofes...@evprofessor.com)* * Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.* *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)* *Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!* * You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss * *NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8 http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8 On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 5:25 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 4 Aug 2014 at 18:14, Ben Goren via EV wrote: He says it's okay to spin the motors faster than 8000 RPM so long as it's not the controller that's sending the current to the motors that's doing the spinning. I wonder why this would be. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140805/05c618f3/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
Lawrence Harris wrote: Keep in mind that if you have just gone up a long hill the motor and commutator will be hot and over-speeding it on the downhill run may still damage it even though the current is now low (or zero). I think it's probably best to keep the RPM in the safe range under the worst conditions rather than risk the expense of a damaged motor. Dennis Miles wrote: David, and others, the most fragile part, of a series DC motor, is the commutator. And, bear in mind that the original poster is considering the AC-51 motor, which is AC, not brushed DC, and so has no commutator to worry about. If I were the OP, I'd still want HPEVS to provide some max safe RPM value, not just a verbal statement that the 8000RPM limit is a controller limitation and not a limitation of the motor. Roger. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
Ben Goren wrote: The AC-51s use 6207-2RS bearings; my main job is to research their side loading capacity. However, Bill says there're a number of side-loaded AC- 35s out there, and that he thinks I'm probably okay -- though, of course, I need to confirm that. If anybody can suggest a good way to put some numbers to that, I'd appreciate it. Not sure if it helps, but here is a specific example of a pair of HPEVs AC-31s installed in a side-loaded arrangement: http://evalbum.com/4283 You can see more details of the torque combiner unit on John's (the owner's) site: http://www.signaturerenewables.com/component.php His torque combiner uses a 2:1 ratio belt drive to connect the two motors to a common output, and you might just be able to re-use his design in your application with little modification. Certainly, it can't hurt to ask. Regarding putting numbers on the acceptable side load, or conversely, on the life of the bearing under a given load condition, this Timken calculator might be useful: http://www.timken.com/EN-US/Knowledge/engineers/Pages/BearingLife.aspx Your 6207 crosses dimensionally to Timken's 207W, MM207K, and MMC207K ball bearings; of these, the 207W seems to have higher rated life. On this page, click 'Select Type' and select BB from the list, then enter 207W into the part number box and click 'Lookup'. After this you can enter radial and axial loads and speed values and hit 'Calculate' to see the effect on fatigue life. My understanding is that radial (side) load is exactly what the ball bearing is designed to handle, and that the real concern is the axial loading that these bearings might be subjected to in a more typical EV conversion with a manual clutch. For greater axial load capability one might want to upgrade the bearings to an angular contact type, however, in your case axial load should be minimal. Cheers, Roger. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
Dennis Miles via EV wrote: David, and others, the most fragile part, of a series DC motor, is the commutator. And that is, because the copper segments are glued to an insulating core. When the current is flowing, the segments heat up and soften the glue, then they are subjecting to lifting, away from that insulating core, and causing problems with the brushes, resulting a need for an extensive repair. But, with no (or very low) current, the glue maintains its strength, and the motor can be spun to a higher RPM, without damage. Relatively new DC motors are built with commutator bars that are glued in place. Older and heavy-duty motors instead have steel commutators that don't depend on glue to to hold the bars. Instead, there are steel rings at each end hold in the bars. They use mica or other materials to insulate the bars. This type of commutator is much stronger, and better able to withstand high temperatures and high RPMs. Here's one image I could quickly find: http://www.iccinternational.com/resource/vring.html -- We cannot waste time. We can only waste ourselves. -- George Matthew Adams -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
Lee, I must be too young to have seen those, or else I did not have one fail because they were stronger. The other question is how does it damage the AC motor to over speed and why does a speed limiter in the controller/inverter cause damage as was indicated in the discussion? The AC motor doesn't have a commutator, or windings on the rotor so what is the harm in driving the motor to more than 8,000 rpm? All I can conceive are bearing stresses. Dennis Lee Miles (*evprofes...@evprofessor.com evprofes...@evprofessor.com)* * Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.* *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)* *Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!* * You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss * *NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8 http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8 On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 7:43 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Dennis Miles via EV wrote: David, and others, the most fragile part, of a series DC motor, is the commutator. And that is, because the copper segments are glued to an insulating core. When the current is flowing, the segments heat up and soften the glue, then they are subjecting to lifting, away from that insulating core, and causing problems with the brushes, resulting a need for an extensive repair. But, with no (or very low) current, the glue maintains its strength, and the motor can be spun to a higher RPM, without damage. Relatively new DC motors are built with commutator bars that are glued in place. Older and heavy-duty motors instead have steel commutators that don't depend on glue to to hold the bars. Instead, there are steel rings at each end hold in the bars. They use mica or other materials to insulate the bars. This type of commutator is much stronger, and better able to withstand high temperatures and high RPMs. Here's one image I could quickly find: http://www.iccinternational.com/resource/vring.html -- We cannot waste time. We can only waste ourselves. -- George Matthew Adams -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140805/33830f7c/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
On Aug 5, 2014, at 2:36 PM, Roger Stockton via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: If I were the OP, I'd still want HPEVS to provide some max safe RPM value, not just a verbal statement that the 8000RPM limit is a controller limitation and not a limitation of the motor. No worries. The plan is to treat 8000 RPM as a hard-and-fast do-not-exceed limit, especially since it turns out that there's nothing to be gained from gearing lower than what I'm currently planning on. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140805/ab975cef/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
Dennis, Depends how the rotor is built, there is significant stress on it, not just the bearings. My previous EV had a Hughes induction (AC) motor with a 9,000 RPM redline and I believe that at that speed, the rotor surface is going about 300 km/h (200 MPH) in a thight 1/2 ft circle, so the centrifugal forces on that rotor surface are enormous, at some point it will litterally be pulled apart by the force that wants to let it fly in a straight line instead of turning a 1/2 ft circle at a third of the speed of sound. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Miles via EV Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 7:58 PM To: Lee Hart; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain? Lee, I must be too young to have seen those, or else I did not have one fail because they were stronger. The other question is how does it damage the AC motor to over speed and why does a speed limiter in the controller/inverter cause damage as was indicated in the discussion? The AC motor doesn't have a commutator, or windings on the rotor so what is the harm in driving the motor to more than 8,000 rpm? All I can conceive are bearing stresses. Dennis Lee Miles (*evprofes...@evprofessor.com evprofes...@evprofessor.com)* * Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.* *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)* *Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!* * You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss * *NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8 http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8 On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 7:43 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Dennis Miles via EV wrote: David, and others, the most fragile part, of a series DC motor, is the commutator. And that is, because the copper segments are glued to an insulating core. When the current is flowing, the segments heat up and soften the glue, then they are subjecting to lifting, away from that insulating core, and causing problems with the brushes, resulting a need for an extensive repair. But, with no (or very low) current, the glue maintains its strength, and the motor can be spun to a higher RPM, without damage. Relatively new DC motors are built with commutator bars that are glued in place. Older and heavy-duty motors instead have steel commutators that don't depend on glue to to hold the bars. Instead, there are steel rings at each end hold in the bars. They use mica or other materials to insulate the bars. This type of commutator is much stronger, and better able to withstand high temperatures and high RPMs. Here's one image I could quickly find: http://www.iccinternational.com/resource/vring.html -- We cannot waste time. We can only waste ourselves. -- George Matthew Adams -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140805/3383 0f7c/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?
Just to follow up on this: I spoke with Bill at HPEVS this afternoon. I still don't think he'd be willing to sign off on the project considering the uncharted territory I'm heading into, but he was also rather more encouraging with this latest round of changes. The AC-51s use 6207-2RS bearings; my main job is to research their side loading capacity. However, Bill says there're a number of side-loaded AC-35s out there, and that he thinks I'm probably okay -- though, of course, I need to confirm that. If anybody can suggest a good way to put some numbers to that, I'd appreciate it. My instincts for gearing were probably spot-on, for once. That ~5.7:1 is likely at a good sweet spot, with maximum power at freeway speeds and maximum RPM at maximum sane speeds (or perhaps a bit beyond). He says it's okay to spin the motors faster than 8000 RPM so long as it's not the controller that's sending the current to the motors that's doing the spinning. And, if I ever *did* want to do anything significant at higher-than-not-quite-sane speeds and also needed the electric motors to help the V8 at said higher-than-sane speeds, I could always change the pulleys. So, once I confirm that I'm not going to be putting undue side loads on the motor bearings, I should be good to move out of the Can I? phase to actual planning. So...I'll probably shut up for a while, and then come back with a complete plan and a request that all y'all rip it to shreds, if you don't mind. Thanks, b On Aug 2, 2014, at 7:56 AM, Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com wrote: So, as I mentioned in that previous post on air conditioning, I was at my shade tree mechanic's yesterday; he was fixing a fuel leak on my '68 Westfalia. And he had what I'm thinking may be the best idea yet for connecting the electric motors in the Mustang. Basically, mount a gear (two gears, in this case) between the transmission and the U-joint, mount the motors under the seats, and connect each to the gear on the driveshaft with a chain. The quick research I've done since then makes me think a motorcycle's belt drive would likely be much preferable to a chain drive. This would solve a *lot* of geometry problems, *and* it would allow some flexibility in using different gearing for the electric motors than the V8. For example, if I have the math right, with a 3:1 rear end (factory stock for this particular car that might still be in there) and standard 65- and 34-tooth pulleys, the electric motors would see a 5.7:1 ratio. They'd already be over 1000 RPM in 15 MPH school zones, but they still wouldn't reach 8000 RPM until above 100 MPH. 65 MPH would be at 5000 RPM, which is peak power for the AC-51. My biggest concern would be the sideways torque on the motor shaft. Is that a valid concern? HPEVS markets the AC-35 for use in motorcycles, and I'd think that the AC-51 shouldn't be less capable in that regard. I imagine there might be some challenge in machining something that would allow the mounting of the pulleys to the driveshaft...but I also know that there're machinists who're miracle workers who would be glad to do something like this...for a price So...the question I'm sure y'all're tired of hearing from me: am I crazy? Thanks again, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140804/d10a5bb6/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
