Re: [EVDL] Most efficient hub motor for 20' wheel

[ken via EV]

 I have a jonway maxiscooter is it more aerodiamic with the wind shield on?

could I make a tarp from the windshield to trunk with fiberglass rods to
improve things?



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Re: [EVDL] Most efficient hub motor for 20' wheel

[ken via EV]

> I don't see a mid drive as problematic for a BikeE CT (hardtail).
Most mid drive at very expensive and you have to listen to NOISE of extra
gears.


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Re: [EVDL] Most efficient hub motor for 20' wheel

[ken via EV]

golden motors does have a 16" n 20" inch solid hub motor.

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Re: [EVDL] Most efficient hub motor for 20" wheel

[Michael Ross via EV]

BikeE had two recalls I know of.

There was a strut on the seat that would break.  Any competent welder could
sand off the aluminum finish and tack it back together.  The recall fix
simply pinched the end of the strut before welding providing a better
connection.

The other recall and the death knell for BikeE was failure of the forks of
the tandem. There were absolutely no such problems on the solo models.

I have two in good condition a CT and an AT (rear suspension).  The
steering and geometry are a little odd, kind of squirrelly and uncertain at
low speeds, but safe.  They don't resist turning much and don't respond
quickly to large handle bar motions.  I found when I was fatigued (after 80
or 100 miles) I had a hard time climbing and would row the handlebars back
an forth. A real pain at night with a bar mounted light. At high downhill
speeds (I have hit 45MPH) they are rock solid.

Lots of recumbents have odd steering response. There are no rule of thumb
design limits for them as with upright bike design. So the get built with
less certainty about how they will feel and perform.  Same with recumbent
trikes.  The original Terra Trike WizWheels were a nightmare.

Anyway, I made adaptations to BikeEs and enjoy riding them.

I don't think you will find shoehorning a hub motor into a 20 inch wheel to
be easy.  You may not be able to buy spokes from stock that are short
enough. I wanted to put a Schmidt generator hub into the front 16" wheel
and gave that idea up for this reason.  You can probably get custom spokes
made from longer one but running a die onto them.  However the best spokes
are rolled not cut. Cut threads are not as strong.  You might try a
combination spoke pattern of radial on the non drive side and 1 cross on
the drive side to make the lacing easier.  I have one like this and it is
fine, but with a standard hub, not electric. You can mess around more with
the lacing because the small wheels are so much stronger than large
diameters.

Mike

On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 4:27 PM, nicklogan via EV  wrote:

> Too bad this seems to com in only a 26 inch wheel format:
>
> https://www.geoo.com/
>
> "The Patent Pending GeoOrbital wheel is an evolution of the orbital wheel
> (the wheels on the TRON Motorcycles). The GeoOrbital wheel replaces a
> standard bicycle front wheel to turn your bike into a powerful electric
> bike
> in under 60 seconds.
>
> The only part that is attached separately from the wheel is a simple thumb
> activated throttle, which is easily clipped onto your handlebar.
>
> The Panasonic 36V removable Lithium-Ion battery (with a built in USB outlet
> for charging your electronics) provides a pedal assisted range of up to 50
> miles per-battery (up to a 30 mile range for the 26 inch wheel). With
> little
> to no pedaling you will go up to 20 miles on a single battery (up to 12
> miles for the 26 inch wheel). The more you choose to pedal the more range
> you can expect, and you can always take a spare battery with you for longer
> rides.
>
> The GeoOrbital wheel comes with a flat-proof solid foam tire, so you never
> have to worry about getting a flat or even checking tire pressure.
>
> By using the latest hi-density foam technology the tires act and weigh the
> same as a traditional bike tire, but you will never get a flat. Never!"
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-
> discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Most-efficient-
> drive-system-for-a-bicycle-tricycle-tp4686908p4686947.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> group/NEDRA)
>
>


-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Mobile and
Google Phone

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] Most efficient hub motor for 20" wheel

[Michael Ross via EV]

I don't see a mid drive as problematic for a BikeE CT (hardtail). It would
be trickier on one of the models with rear suspension.

Mike

On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 7:06 PM, Michael Ross 
wrote:

> BikeE had two recalls I know of.
>
> There was a strut on the seat that would break.  Any competent welder
> could sand off the aluminum finish and tack it back together.  The recall
> fix simply pinched the end of the strut before welding providing a better
> connection.
>
> The other recall and the death knell for BikeE was failure of the forks of
> the tandem. There were absolutely no such problems on the solo models.
>
> I have two in good condition a CT and an AT (rear suspension).  The
> steering and geometry are a little odd, kind of squirrelly and uncertain at
> low speeds, but safe.  They don't resist turning much and don't respond
> quickly to large handle bar motions.  I found when I was fatigued (after 80
> or 100 miles) I had a hard time climbing and would row the handlebars back
> an forth. A real pain at night with a bar mounted light. At high downhill
> speeds (I have hit 45MPH) they are rock solid.
>
> Lots of recumbents have odd steering response. There are no rule of thumb
> design limits for them as with upright bike design. So the get built with
> less certainty about how they will feel and perform.  Same with recumbent
> trikes.  The original Terra Trike WizWheels were a nightmare.
>
> Anyway, I made adaptations to BikeEs and enjoy riding them.
>
> I don't think you will find shoehorning a hub motor into a 20 inch wheel
> to be easy.  You may not be able to buy spokes from stock that are short
> enough. I wanted to put a Schmidt generator hub into the front 16" wheel
> and gave that idea up for this reason.  You can probably get custom spokes
> made from longer one but running a die onto them.  However the best spokes
> are rolled not cut. Cut threads are not as strong.  You might try a
> combination spoke pattern of radial on the non drive side and 1 cross on
> the drive side to make the lacing easier.  I have one like this and it is
> fine, but with a standard hub, not electric. You can mess around more with
> the lacing because the small wheels are so much stronger than large
> diameters.
>
> Mike
>
> On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 4:27 PM, nicklogan via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> Too bad this seems to com in only a 26 inch wheel format:
>>
>> https://www.geoo.com/
>>
>> "The Patent Pending GeoOrbital wheel is an evolution of the orbital wheel
>> (the wheels on the TRON Motorcycles). The GeoOrbital wheel replaces a
>> standard bicycle front wheel to turn your bike into a powerful electric
>> bike
>> in under 60 seconds.
>>
>> The only part that is attached separately from the wheel is a simple thumb
>> activated throttle, which is easily clipped onto your handlebar.
>>
>> The Panasonic 36V removable Lithium-Ion battery (with a built in USB
>> outlet
>> for charging your electronics) provides a pedal assisted range of up to 50
>> miles per-battery (up to a 30 mile range for the 26 inch wheel). With
>> little
>> to no pedaling you will go up to 20 miles on a single battery (up to 12
>> miles for the 26 inch wheel). The more you choose to pedal the more range
>> you can expect, and you can always take a spare battery with you for
>> longer
>> rides.
>>
>> The GeoOrbital wheel comes with a flat-proof solid foam tire, so you never
>> have to worry about getting a flat or even checking tire pressure.
>>
>> By using the latest hi-density foam technology the tires act and weigh the
>> same as a traditional bike tire, but you will never get a flat. Never!"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discus
>> sion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Most-efficient-drive-
>> system-for-a-bicycle-tricycle-tp4686908p4686947.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>> ___
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group
>> /NEDRA)
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
> Thomas A. Edison
> 
>
> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
> *Warren Buffet*
>
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (919) 576-0824  Mobile and
> Google Phone
>
> michael.e.r...@gmail.com
> 
>
>
>


-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Mobile and

Re: [EVDL] Most efficient hub motor for 20" wheel

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

Astro motors in Irvine, CA is making some very powerful and small motors.  A kw 
per pound.  Bldc type 95% efficient.  Holds 85 mph record for a one hundred 
pound vehicle three wheel vehicle. Lawrence Rhodes

Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android device
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Re: [EVDL] Most efficient hub motor for 20" wheel

[Lee Hart via EV]

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

A bike E which I think is a brand had recalls.


I bought mine used; so never had any recalls. It has worked flawlessly for me.
My only changes were to add a rearview mirror, and upgrade the skinny racing
tires to something with more traction and a better ride.


I think Lee's idea might be best but it will be unusual.  On standard bikes a
mid drive is an easy addition with coasting ability while the motor runs the
bike...


For me, it's still a bike, not a motorcycle. I pedal all the time, and only use 
the motor occasionally to climb hills (I live at the top of a hill).


My wife has a Giant "LaFree" Ebike. I really like its setup. It has a mid-drive 
setup, with the motor mounted between the crank and rear wheel, driving the 
one-and-only chain with a little sprocket and freewheel. The rear wheel has a 
5-speed hub.


When the motor is off, the freewheel on its shaft just spins. A tensioner pulley 
detects when the chain is tight (i.e. you're pedaling). You have an off/low/high 
switch on the handlebar. The motor adds force (low or high) proportional to how 
much force you are applying to the pedals, so it turns on/off automatically.


My other E-bike is a conventional 26" bike with a hub motor in the front wheel. 
It can run like a motorcycle (no pedaling) if you like. It is much more 
powerful; but much heavier and also kills the battery much faster. It tends to 
spin the front tire in low-traction conditions, which can cause dangerous 
spills! I don't like this setup much.


I really like Roger Stockton / Rob Cameron's setup! I just have to find a good 
gearmotor, and figure out a way to make that adapter to put a freewheel cassette 
on its shaft. The gearmotor is going to need really good bearing to withstand 
the force from pedaling.


> but it seems efficiency is not a concern with most of these hub
> motors or mid drives.

That's probably true for casual use. The difference in efficiency from 90% to 
95% is probably not noticeable except by the discerning cyclist; but adds 
significantly to the cost.

--
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Most efficient hub motor for 20" wheel

[nicklogan via EV]

Too bad this seems to com in only a 26 inch wheel format:

https://www.geoo.com/

"The Patent Pending GeoOrbital wheel is an evolution of the orbital wheel
(the wheels on the TRON Motorcycles). The GeoOrbital wheel replaces a
standard bicycle front wheel to turn your bike into a powerful electric bike
in under 60 seconds.

The only part that is attached separately from the wheel is a simple thumb
activated throttle, which is easily clipped onto your handlebar.

The Panasonic 36V removable Lithium-Ion battery (with a built in USB outlet
for charging your electronics) provides a pedal assisted range of up to 50
miles per-battery (up to a 30 mile range for the 26 inch wheel). With little
to no pedaling you will go up to 20 miles on a single battery (up to 12
miles for the 26 inch wheel). The more you choose to pedal the more range
you can expect, and you can always take a spare battery with you for longer
rides. 

The GeoOrbital wheel comes with a flat-proof solid foam tire, so you never
have to worry about getting a flat or even checking tire pressure.

By using the latest hi-density foam technology the tires act and weigh the
same as a traditional bike tire, but you will never get a flat. Never!"




--
View this message in context: 
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Most-efficient-drive-system-for-a-bicycle-tricycle-tp4686908p4686947.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] Most efficient hub motor for 20" wheel

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

A bike E which I think is a brand had recalls.  It also has the front crank in 
a box frame.  Not the easiest to use common mid drive. Hub motor might be best. 
 Bionx maybe but they are expensive.  I think Lee's idea might be best but it 
will be unusual.  On standard bikes a mid drive is an easy addition with 
coasting ability while the motor runs the bikebut it seems efficiency is 
not a concern with most of these hub motors or mid drives.  I'm still 
searching.It would be nice to have a bolt in solution and the hub motor seems 
to be it. However it's nice to have a motor setup which doesn't penalize you 
when the battery power or the motor quits.    Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Most efficient hub motor for 20" wheel

[George Tyler via EV]

If you use that ebikes.ca calculator, set the controller current limit well
above what the motor can handle, you will see maximum power at close to 50%
of maximum RPM, this is at full throttle, and current only limited by the
motor resistance. At that 50% speed efficiency is also around 50%. Lowering
the controller current limit setting shifts the maximum power point and
efficiency higher, up to 60 to 75% as you say. So, it all depends on the
controller. My "250W" ebike draws 675W at 15km/hr, and on the flat it does
30 km/hr. the 1kw ungeared Hub motors do better efficiency because they are
not running at the un- current limited maximum power point. The maximum
power allowed here is 300W, Europe is 250W. 

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: 31 May, 2017 4:29 AM
To: ken; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Most efficient hub motor for 20" wheel

ken via EV wrote:
>   I have a Bike E with a 20" rear wheel I want to put a 36 volt at 500 
> to
> 1000 watt hub motor there but I want it RPM effecint  for 20 mph. 
> where do i find such a wheel at reasonable price.

I also have a Bike-E, and have thought of electrifying it. But its handling
is such that I wouldn't feel comfortable with such a big motor. Keeping it
down to
20 mph is a good idea!

Note that PM motor efficiency tends to peak strongly near full power. At
light load, they are much less efficient, because you have full magnetic
losses all the time. So it may be better efficiency-wise to use a smaller
motor and gearing to achieve the best speed/efficiency tradeoff.

My Bike-E has a 7-speed rear hub, and of course a very long chain. My
thought was to mount the motor under the seat, with a freewheel sprocket to
the chain. 
That way, it gets the benefit of the gearing. The freewheel means you're not
spinning the motor when it's not being used while pedaling.

--
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent.
It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move in the opposite
direction. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Most efficient hub motor for 20" wheel

[Bill Dube via EV]

It is important to keep in mind that an e-bike (and a motorcycle) are a 
"brick" aerodynamically. That is, e-bikes have a very high drag 
coefficient, like 0.5 or more. There is not much you can do about it, 
besides things that are unacceptable to most bicycle riders like 
enclosures and recumbent riding position, etc. You could also go slow. :-)


Most e-bike drive systems these days are amazingly efficient. Like 85% 
or better. That remaining 10 or 15% really won't make that much 
difference in the range and performance. The main "inefficiency" is 
aerodynamic and is unavoidable _if_ you want to stick with a 
conventional looking bicycle that you ride in the conventional position.


Bill D.

On 5/30/2017 10:28 AM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

ken via EV wrote:
  I have a Bike E with a 20" rear wheel I want to put a 36 volt at 
500 to

1000 watt hub motor there but I want it RPM effecint  for 20 mph. where
do i find such a wheel at reasonable price.


I also have a Bike-E, and have thought of electrifying it. But its 
handling is such that I wouldn't feel comfortable with such a big 
motor. Keeping it down to 20 mph is a good idea!


Note that PM motor efficiency tends to peak strongly near full power. 
At light load, they are much less efficient, because you have full 
magnetic losses all the time. So it may be better efficiency-wise to 
use a smaller motor and gearing to achieve the best speed/efficiency 
tradeoff.


My Bike-E has a 7-speed rear hub, and of course a very long chain. My 
thought was to mount the motor under the seat, with a freewheel 
sprocket to the chain. That way, it gets the benefit of the gearing. 
The freewheel means you're not spinning the motor when it's not being 
used while pedaling.




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Re: [EVDL] Most efficient hub motor for 20" wheel

[Roger Stockton via EV]

Lee Hart wrote:

> My Bike-E has a 7-speed rear hub, and of course a very long chain. My
> thought was to mount the motor under the seat, with a freewheel
> sprocket to the chain.
> That way, it gets the benefit of the gearing. The freewheel means you're
> not spinning the motor when it's not being used while pedaling.

What you describe is similar to how we electrified Rob Cameron's Bike-E:



The main difference is that you propose using a freewheel to allow pedaling 
without spinning the motor (which is quite useful when the batteries run out), 
while our approach put a freewheel and an additional 7-speed cassette between 
the pedals and the motor shaft.

The freewheel allowed the cyclist's feet to remain stationary on the pedals 
while cruising under electric power (rather than being forced to spin at a 
speed determined by the electric motor), and the 7-speed cassette between the 
pedals and motor shaft allows the cyclist to provide assist at any cruising 
speed without having to pedal uncomfortably fast or slow.

A decided benefit of placing the motor mid-ship like this is that it breaks the 
very long stock chain run into two shorter, more manageable runs ;^>

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: [EVDL] Most efficient hub motor for 20" wheel

[Lee Hart via EV]

ken via EV wrote:

  I have a Bike E with a 20" rear wheel I want to put a 36 volt at 500 to
1000 watt hub motor there but I want it RPM effecint  for 20 mph. where
do i find such a wheel at reasonable price.


I also have a Bike-E, and have thought of electrifying it. But its handling is 
such that I wouldn't feel comfortable with such a big motor. Keeping it down to 
20 mph is a good idea!


Note that PM motor efficiency tends to peak strongly near full power. At light 
load, they are much less efficient, because you have full magnetic losses all 
the time. So it may be better efficiency-wise to use a smaller motor and gearing 
to achieve the best speed/efficiency tradeoff.


My Bike-E has a 7-speed rear hub, and of course a very long chain. My thought 
was to mount the motor under the seat, with a freewheel sprocket to the chain. 
That way, it gets the benefit of the gearing. The freewheel means you're not 
spinning the motor when it's not being used while pedaling.


--
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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