Re: [EVDL] pros and cons of replacing a worn-out connector&cord on an otherwise well-functioning L2

[Josh Landess via EV]

Ok, taking a look now, thanks.

Josh

On 10/9/2024 6:49 PM, Glen Hoag via EV wrote:

The eBay seller said that he got his cord from EVChargeSolutions.com, 
presumably this one:

https://www.evchargesolutions.com/Degson-J1772-Level-2-Replacement-Cable-p/evcs-25cbl-a-02.htm

Sent from my iPhone

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Re: [EVDL] pros and cons of replacing a worn-out connector&cord on an otherwise well-functioning L2

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 10 Oct 2024 at 4:31, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

> I have only seen 1 station that can deliver 63A 3-phase power, a
> whopping 43kW of AC charging - not many vehicles support this, so in
> practice 32A is the max charge current.

Can't speak for the rest of Europe, but some of the older charging points 
here in France support 43kW charging. I've only seen one recently-installed 
point that does.

It's probably because some older Renault Zoe models could charge at 43kW.  
With their 22kWh batteries (used until 2017 IIRC), it made for a nice speedy 
charge.

Renault's later in-house manufactured charger only charges at up to 22kW,  
however, and AFAIK that's been the only one available in new Renaults since 
2020.

That said, 22kW is decently fast.  A normal French lunch lasts at least 2h, 
so that's more than enough time to do 20-80% on a 52kWh battery.  As a 
bonus, 22kW AC public charging is always cheaper than DC charging.  
Sometimes it's free.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
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Re: [EVDL] pros and cons of replacing a worn-out connector&cord on an otherwise well-functioning L2

[Cor van de Water via EV]

NOTE that the J3400 NACS standard has the option to make the EVSE
cordless just like the Type 2 chargers in Europe, where the public
level 2 chargers are often a slender pole on the curb next to the road
in between two parking spots, so you can plug your own cable into it
from either slot. It will be interesting to see if we indeed get a
similar situation here.
NOTE that EU cords tell the charging station, how much current they
can support, via the same pin that is used for Proximity between the
cable and the vehicle. So, you can bring a light 16A cable if your
vehicle has a small battery or charger and for charging at 32A or even
63A you bring the equivalent cable and it will tell the charger,
obviously the EVSE has its own limit so most will not provide more
than 32A but at 230V per phase and 3 phases available, you can draw up
to 22kW which is impossible to achieve in the US with a single phase,
even at the maximum 80A.
(I have only seen 1 station that can deliver 63A 3-phase power, a
whopping 43kW of AC charging - not many vehicles support this, so in
practice 32A is the max charge current.)

On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 9:51 AM Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
>
> Yes, in the US each L1 / L2 EVSE has a hard wired cable that ends with a
> J1772 "gun".
>
> For public EVSE's the "bring your own (double ended) cable" makes a lot
> of sense, but that's not what happens in the US.
>
> Jay
>
> On 10/9/24 12:45, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:
> > Do all US EVSEs have permanently attached cables?
> >
> > I never had a J1772 EV back in the US, so I have no experience with them.
> >
> > We have a Hager wallbox (EVSE) in our garage.  The cable is separate and
> > plugs into the wallbox.  If it ever wears out or gets damaged, it's super
> > easy to replace, though not exactly cheap.
> >
> > All of the level 2 public charging points I've used have been the same - you
> > supply your own cable.
> >
> > This is type 2 CCS, so maybe it's different that way.
> >
> > However, all of the higher power DC CCS2 charging I've seen so far has had
> > permanently attached cables.  Some of them are pretty imposing looking, as
> > they can pour out up to 350kW.
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >   I depend on these documents to be dependable.
> >
> >   -- Anonymous
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
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Re: [EVDL] pros and cons of replacing a worn-out connector&cord on an otherwise well-functioning L2

[Glen Hoag via EV]

The eBay seller said that he got his cord from EVChargeSolutions.com, 
presumably this one:

https://www.evchargesolutions.com/Degson-J1772-Level-2-Replacement-Cable-p/evcs-25cbl-a-02.htm

Sent from my iPhone

> 
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Re: [EVDL] pros and cons of replacing a worn-out connector&cord on an otherwise well-functioning L2

[Glen Hoag via EV]

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Re: [EVDL] pros and cons of replacing a worn-out connector&cord on an otherwise well-functioning L2

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Here's a new "original" Clipper creek unit, but it's $400:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/295956565801

Though, If you are  going to spend that kind of money plus having an
electrician install it, you might as well replace the whole EVSE.

On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 5:29 PM Josh Landess via EV 
wrote:

> Thanks, if you have a link to one or two new UL-listed 25 foot cables
> that terminate in a J1772, that you would consider to be top of the
> line, or thereabouts, then I could consider buying them.
>
> Josh
>
> On 10/9/2024 7:45 AM, Jay Summet via EV wrote:
> > If it is a standard J1772 connector/cable, you can find replacement
> > parts (the J1772 gun with or without the cable) easily online.
> >
> > The trick is getting a "good quality" one (UL listed, known
> > manufacturer, etc...) which will cost significantly more than a
> > "generic" one. [WAG on the price of a "good" J1772 gun: $100-200]
> >
> > There are 3 larger power wires (Hot/Hot/Ground) and 2 smaller data
> > cables that need to be connected (either on the gun end, or if you
> > also replace the cable, at the CS-40 end.
> >
> > Replacing the gun at the end of the existing cable would probably be
> > easier than replacing the cable inside the clipper creek unit,
> > depending upon how easy it is to open up the CS-40 unit.
> >
> > Although the replacement isn't difficult, a "regular" electrician may
> > not have done it before, so if you can find somebody who specializes
> > in EVSE installations that may help. [Even so, they typically install
> > entire units, instead of replacing parts, so specify what you are
> > looking for. If they do replacements often, they may also sell you the
> > J1772 gun they install as part of the quote.]
> >
> > It's not a difficult replacement, but hiring somebody else to do it is
> > going to add significantly to the cost (WAG: $100 truck roll fee + 50
> > to do the swap out?).
> >
> > So I'd estimate you are looking at $250-350 to hire a "professional"
> > to do it with parts & laborwhich is getting up in price to close
> > to the cost of a new EVSE. [Assuming it is not hard wired, you can
> > just plug in replace a new EVSEbut if it IS hard wired, it sounds
> > like you'd be hiring an electrician to swap out the whole unit.]
> >
> >
> > Jay
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10/9/24 09:47, Josh Landess via EV wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I have some responsibility for helping to administer a public L2
> >> station project in my community.  The station is an old non-networked
> >> Clipper Creek CS-40.  It appears that the only problem is that the
> >> connector has worn out and does not consistently result in the
> >> vehicle charging. Clipper Creek / Enphase tell me they don't make
> >> that part any more. Does anyone have recommendations as to where a
> >> UL-listed replacement part could be bought, and what would be the
> >> pros/cons of having this installed on the existing CS-40, as against
> >> replacing the entire unit? I am very much not a DIY person, and there
> >> is zero chance I would be doing the installation work.
> >>
> >> Josh
> >>
> >>
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Re: [EVDL] pros and cons of replacing a worn-out connector&cord on an otherwise well-functioning L2

[Josh Landess via EV]

Thanks, if you have a link to one or two new UL-listed 25 foot cables 
that terminate in a J1772, that you would consider to be top of the 
line, or thereabouts, then I could consider buying them.


Josh

On 10/9/2024 7:45 AM, Jay Summet via EV wrote:
If it is a standard J1772 connector/cable, you can find replacement 
parts (the J1772 gun with or without the cable) easily online.


The trick is getting a "good quality" one (UL listed, known 
manufacturer, etc...) which will cost significantly more than a 
"generic" one. [WAG on the price of a "good" J1772 gun: $100-200]


There are 3 larger power wires (Hot/Hot/Ground) and 2 smaller data 
cables that need to be connected (either on the gun end, or if you 
also replace the cable, at the CS-40 end.


Replacing the gun at the end of the existing cable would probably be 
easier than replacing the cable inside the clipper creek unit, 
depending upon how easy it is to open up the CS-40 unit.


Although the replacement isn't difficult, a "regular" electrician may 
not have done it before, so if you can find somebody who specializes 
in EVSE installations that may help. [Even so, they typically install 
entire units, instead of replacing parts, so specify what you are 
looking for. If they do replacements often, they may also sell you the 
J1772 gun they install as part of the quote.]


It's not a difficult replacement, but hiring somebody else to do it is 
going to add significantly to the cost (WAG: $100 truck roll fee + 50 
to do the swap out?).


So I'd estimate you are looking at $250-350 to hire a "professional" 
to do it with parts & laborwhich is getting up in price to close 
to the cost of a new EVSE. [Assuming it is not hard wired, you can 
just plug in replace a new EVSEbut if it IS hard wired, it sounds 
like you'd be hiring an electrician to swap out the whole unit.]



Jay



On 10/9/24 09:47, Josh Landess via EV wrote:

Hi,

I have some responsibility for helping to administer a public L2 
station project in my community.  The station is an old non-networked 
Clipper Creek CS-40.  It appears that the only problem is that the 
connector has worn out and does not consistently result in the 
vehicle charging. Clipper Creek / Enphase tell me they don't make 
that part any more. Does anyone have recommendations as to where a 
UL-listed replacement part could be bought, and what would be the 
pros/cons of having this installed on the existing CS-40, as against 
replacing the entire unit? I am very much not a DIY person, and there 
is zero chance I would be doing the installation work.


Josh


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Re: [EVDL] pros and cons of replacing a worn-out connector&cord on an otherwise well-functioning L2

[Josh Landess via EV]

Thanks Phil, interesting about the winding issue.

I'm not buying a used cable for an important project involving someone 
else's property, but if you have a link to a new one of the same 
specifications (including the 25 feet), then I could consider buying it.


Josh


On 10/9/2024 9:18 AM, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

The most common failure is not the connector, it's in the cable.  The tiny
pilot signal wire (by comparison to the much larger power wires) often gets
broken from stress.   This is more common with portable EVSEs, and where
people wrap the cords without proper technique.   NEVER WRAP CORDS OF ANY
KIND OVER YOUR ARM!   It puts torsion (twisting) on the cable and causes
excessive knotting at first, then ultimately conductor failure.

If you watch any professional who handles cables, they will be using the
proper method, called "over under" because it wraps the cable without
twisting.   Here is a short example video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RE-z5UteKfc  (This is for XLR audio cables,
but the concept is the same for any cable, and even more important the
larger the diameter!)

On larger/longer cables, just make bigger loops.   It takes some practice
at first, but with a little repetition it will become muscle memory.
This will also mean way less tangles.   Sadly your cables that have been
twisted will never fully recover, but if you start this on new cables, you
will never have trouble.   Just as the guy in the video shows, you can
literally throw the cable and it will lay mostly flat with no loops and
knots!

DO NOT do the thing I see contractors do with the chain loop trick!  This
doesn't twist the cable, but it does create many tight loops that stress
the cable because you are subjecting it to beyond the minimum bend
radius!Listen to the roadies!

Back to the whip replacement on the clipper creek:  You can find decent
high-quality cables on Ebay all the time, you just need to make sure it's
long enough and rated for 32A minimum, as that's what the CS-40 needs
(Don't be fooled by the "40", it's a 32A EVSE!)   Here's an example for
$80:   https://www.ebay.com/itm/305691551650
Any electrician can install this, it's 1 ground wire, 2 power wires, and
the small pilot wire.  (you don't need any extra small wires, such as
proximity)

On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 7:46 AM Jay Summet via EV  wrote:


If it is a standard J1772 connector/cable, you can find replacement
parts (the J1772 gun with or without the cable) easily online.

The trick is getting a "good quality" one (UL listed, known
manufacturer, etc...) which will cost significantly more than a
"generic" one. [WAG on the price of a "good" J1772 gun: $100-200]

There are 3 larger power wires (Hot/Hot/Ground) and 2 smaller data
cables that need to be connected (either on the gun end, or if you also
replace the cable, at the CS-40 end.

Replacing the gun at the end of the existing cable would probably be
easier than replacing the cable inside the clipper creek unit, depending
upon how easy it is to open up the CS-40 unit.

Although the replacement isn't difficult, a "regular" electrician may
not have done it before, so if you can find somebody who specializes in
EVSE installations that may help. [Even so, they typically install
entire units, instead of replacing parts, so specify what you are
looking for. If they do replacements often, they may also sell you the
J1772 gun they install as part of the quote.]

It's not a difficult replacement, but hiring somebody else to do it is
going to add significantly to the cost (WAG: $100 truck roll fee + 50 to
do the swap out?).

So I'd estimate you are looking at $250-350 to hire a "professional" to
do it with parts & laborwhich is getting up in price to close to the
cost of a new EVSE. [Assuming it is not hard wired, you can just plug in
replace a new EVSEbut if it IS hard wired, it sounds like you'd be
hiring an electrician to swap out the whole unit.]


Jay




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Re: [EVDL] pros and cons of replacing a worn-out connector&cord on an otherwise well-functioning L2

[Jay Summet via EV]

Yes, in the US each L1 / L2 EVSE has a hard wired cable that ends with a 
J1772 "gun".


For public EVSE's the "bring your own (double ended) cable" makes a lot 
of sense, but that's not what happens in the US.


Jay

On 10/9/24 12:45, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

Do all US EVSEs have permanently attached cables?

I never had a J1772 EV back in the US, so I have no experience with them.

We have a Hager wallbox (EVSE) in our garage.  The cable is separate and
plugs into the wallbox.  If it ever wears out or gets damaged, it's super
easy to replace, though not exactly cheap.

All of the level 2 public charging points I've used have been the same - you
supply your own cable.

This is type 2 CCS, so maybe it's different that way.

However, all of the higher power DC CCS2 charging I've seen so far has had
permanently attached cables.  Some of them are pretty imposing looking, as
they can pour out up to 350kW.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

  I depend on these documents to be dependable.

  -- Anonymous

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Re: [EVDL] pros and cons of replacing a worn-out connector&cord on an otherwise well-functioning L2

[EV List Lackey via EV]

Do all US EVSEs have permanently attached cables?  

I never had a J1772 EV back in the US, so I have no experience with them.

We have a Hager wallbox (EVSE) in our garage.  The cable is separate and 
plugs into the wallbox.  If it ever wears out or gets damaged, it's super 
easy to replace, though not exactly cheap. 

All of the level 2 public charging points I've used have been the same - you 
supply your own cable.  

This is type 2 CCS, so maybe it's different that way.

However, all of the higher power DC CCS2 charging I've seen so far has had 
permanently attached cables.  Some of them are pretty imposing looking, as 
they can pour out up to 350kW.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 I depend on these documents to be dependable.

 -- Anonymous

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] pros and cons of replacing a worn-out connector&cord on an otherwise well-functioning L2

[(-Phil-) via EV]

The most common failure is not the connector, it's in the cable.  The tiny
pilot signal wire (by comparison to the much larger power wires) often gets
broken from stress.   This is more common with portable EVSEs, and where
people wrap the cords without proper technique.   NEVER WRAP CORDS OF ANY
KIND OVER YOUR ARM!   It puts torsion (twisting) on the cable and causes
excessive knotting at first, then ultimately conductor failure.

If you watch any professional who handles cables, they will be using the
proper method, called "over under" because it wraps the cable without
twisting.   Here is a short example video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RE-z5UteKfc  (This is for XLR audio cables,
but the concept is the same for any cable, and even more important the
larger the diameter!)

On larger/longer cables, just make bigger loops.   It takes some practice
at first, but with a little repetition it will become muscle memory.
This will also mean way less tangles.   Sadly your cables that have been
twisted will never fully recover, but if you start this on new cables, you
will never have trouble.   Just as the guy in the video shows, you can
literally throw the cable and it will lay mostly flat with no loops and
knots!

DO NOT do the thing I see contractors do with the chain loop trick!  This
doesn't twist the cable, but it does create many tight loops that stress
the cable because you are subjecting it to beyond the minimum bend
radius!Listen to the roadies!

Back to the whip replacement on the clipper creek:  You can find decent
high-quality cables on Ebay all the time, you just need to make sure it's
long enough and rated for 32A minimum, as that's what the CS-40 needs
(Don't be fooled by the "40", it's a 32A EVSE!)   Here's an example for
$80:   https://www.ebay.com/itm/305691551650
Any electrician can install this, it's 1 ground wire, 2 power wires, and
the small pilot wire.  (you don't need any extra small wires, such as
proximity)

On Wed, Oct 9, 2024 at 7:46 AM Jay Summet via EV  wrote:

> If it is a standard J1772 connector/cable, you can find replacement
> parts (the J1772 gun with or without the cable) easily online.
>
> The trick is getting a "good quality" one (UL listed, known
> manufacturer, etc...) which will cost significantly more than a
> "generic" one. [WAG on the price of a "good" J1772 gun: $100-200]
>
> There are 3 larger power wires (Hot/Hot/Ground) and 2 smaller data
> cables that need to be connected (either on the gun end, or if you also
> replace the cable, at the CS-40 end.
>
> Replacing the gun at the end of the existing cable would probably be
> easier than replacing the cable inside the clipper creek unit, depending
> upon how easy it is to open up the CS-40 unit.
>
> Although the replacement isn't difficult, a "regular" electrician may
> not have done it before, so if you can find somebody who specializes in
> EVSE installations that may help. [Even so, they typically install
> entire units, instead of replacing parts, so specify what you are
> looking for. If they do replacements often, they may also sell you the
> J1772 gun they install as part of the quote.]
>
> It's not a difficult replacement, but hiring somebody else to do it is
> going to add significantly to the cost (WAG: $100 truck roll fee + 50 to
> do the swap out?).
>
> So I'd estimate you are looking at $250-350 to hire a "professional" to
> do it with parts & laborwhich is getting up in price to close to the
> cost of a new EVSE. [Assuming it is not hard wired, you can just plug in
> replace a new EVSEbut if it IS hard wired, it sounds like you'd be
> hiring an electrician to swap out the whole unit.]
>
>
> Jay
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] pros and cons of replacing a worn-out connector&cord on an otherwise well-functioning L2

[Jay Summet via EV]

If it is a standard J1772 connector/cable, you can find replacement 
parts (the J1772 gun with or without the cable) easily online.


The trick is getting a "good quality" one (UL listed, known 
manufacturer, etc...) which will cost significantly more than a 
"generic" one. [WAG on the price of a "good" J1772 gun: $100-200]


There are 3 larger power wires (Hot/Hot/Ground) and 2 smaller data 
cables that need to be connected (either on the gun end, or if you also 
replace the cable, at the CS-40 end.


Replacing the gun at the end of the existing cable would probably be 
easier than replacing the cable inside the clipper creek unit, depending 
upon how easy it is to open up the CS-40 unit.


Although the replacement isn't difficult, a "regular" electrician may 
not have done it before, so if you can find somebody who specializes in 
EVSE installations that may help. [Even so, they typically install 
entire units, instead of replacing parts, so specify what you are 
looking for. If they do replacements often, they may also sell you the 
J1772 gun they install as part of the quote.]


It's not a difficult replacement, but hiring somebody else to do it is 
going to add significantly to the cost (WAG: $100 truck roll fee + 50 to 
do the swap out?).


So I'd estimate you are looking at $250-350 to hire a "professional" to 
do it with parts & laborwhich is getting up in price to close to the 
cost of a new EVSE. [Assuming it is not hard wired, you can just plug in 
replace a new EVSEbut if it IS hard wired, it sounds like you'd be 
hiring an electrician to swap out the whole unit.]



Jay



On 10/9/24 09:47, Josh Landess via EV wrote:

Hi,

I have some responsibility for helping to administer a public L2 station 
project in my community.  The station is an old non-networked Clipper 
Creek CS-40.  It appears that the only problem is that the connector has 
worn out and does not consistently result in the vehicle charging. 
Clipper Creek / Enphase tell me they don't make that part any more. Does 
anyone have recommendations as to where a UL-listed replacement part 
could be bought, and what would be the pros/cons of having this 
installed on the existing CS-40, as against replacing the entire unit? I 
am very much not a DIY person, and there is zero chance I would be doing 
the installation work.


Josh


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Re: [EVDL] Pros and cons

[Robert Johnston via EV]

There were a variety of reasons why Citroen were barred from selling in the
US. First and most fundamental was the restriction that headlights for a
passenger car had to be at an exact height off the road, which having
adjustable suspension meant Citroens didn't meet that requirement. They got
a waiver from the FMVSS for that for a few years. There was also a
requirement to use one of two sealed beam headlight units, square or round,
which they adapted to along with not being allowed to have lights that
point in any direction other than straight ahead, which meant the DS'
steering-swivelling headlights also got nixed. Then there were the stupid
bumper requirements in the 80's. It ended up being waaay too much of a
fight for Citroen to bother fighting the bureaucracy for each model year,
and even the third-party grey market importers gave up trying.

On Fri, 21 Jun 2024 at 12:36, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> Is that the reason US stopped importing citroen ? It seems counter
> productive, provided that the vehicle meets safety tests when in the
> fullest extension.
>
> I'd love a vehicle with adjustable suspension height. On freeway, set it
> to the lowest point and reduce drag. When on forest service roads, set
> to the highest extent and minimize damage to the under side. In fact,
> any average driver could benefit from increased performance: low
> clearance automatically on freeways, standard height when off freeway.
>
> Peri
>
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "Cor van de Water" 
> Sent: 20-Jun-24 18:41:08
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pros and cons
>
> >So, how is Tesla passing with their adjustable height suspension?
> >
> >On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 5:59 PM Rush via EV  wrote:
> >>
> >>  The List lackey wrote -
> >>  > The Citroen E-C3 is 23,300 euros (about US$25k).  Wih the French EV
> >>  subsidy,
> >>  > the price falls to between 15k and 18k euros, depending on your
> income
> >>  level
> >>  > and whether you trade in a Diesel to be scrapped.
> >>
> >>  Great to know, but Citroen has not been available in the US since the
> 70's.
> >>  The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) announced a
> rule
> >>  making height-adjustable suspension systems illegal due to safety
> concerns.
> >>  My brother had an ID19 and when he went off to Vietnam in '72 he gave
> it to
> >>  me. It was a gas to drive with the suspension and ability to corner
> fast,
> >>  great acceleration. But something broke and it was going to cost too
> much
> >>  for me to fix, so I sold it as junk.
> >>
> >>  One of its features was that if you got a flat and needed to change the
> >>  tire, all you had to do was put the adjustable extension on 'charge
> tire'
> >>  setting and the car was lifted high enough so you could take the tire
> off
> >>  and put a new one on. Just put a support under the side of the car,
> lower it
> >>  again, the tires on that side are floating, just change the tire. IIRC
> the
> >>  ground clearance was about a foot.
> >>
> >>  Rush Dougherty
> >>  TucsonEV
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  ___
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-- 
Robert "Anaerin" Johnston
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Re: [EVDL] Pros and cons

[Lee Hart via EV]

My understanding is that substantial legal barriers have been erected by the US 
automakers to discourage foreign competition. Cars have to meet US safety and 
emission standards, have US-approved lights, glass, brakes, tires, seatbelts, 
and other items. It doesn't matter if the car has already met EU standards 
(which are in some cases even tougher than US standards). Everything has to be 
replaced and tested again. That's an expensive proposition. A foreign 
manufacturer has to be certain of selling a substantial number of cars at a 
high enough profit margin to recoup the conversion costs.

The US also adds various tariffs and customs fees to imports. For example there 
is a 25% "chicken tax" on importing light trucks into the US.

This is why many foreign automakers have built plants in the US to get around 
all this.

Ironically, all the US automakers sell vehicles that are in part or entirely 
foreign made. They evade the various import fees with a variety of loopholes.

Thus, the only way Citroen can sell cars in the US is by building a plant in 
the US (like Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Mercedes, etc.), or by selling their cars 
to a US automaker who will re-brand it (such as the Suzuki Swift being sold by 
GM as a Geo Metro).

Lee
--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Pros and cons

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I know that I have used the height control on the Model S, for example
when parking just a little too close to the curb and scraping the
bumper over it and into the landscaping behind it. I have one spot
where I "hooked" the bumper behind the curb edge (pushed up by tree
roots) so when I notice this, I increase the ride height and back up a
little to free the bumper without risk of hooking the bumper cover and
damaging it or even tearing it off the nose of the car...
Ride height can even adjust based on speed and the car remembers where
you needed more ride heights, so for example if your garage or your
company parking lot has a steep ramp to get through the gutter, then
the car will increase height when reaching that spot and you do not
need to adjust it every time you have to cross that hazard (my wife's
Prius is *still* scraping its front bumper every day, backing out of
the garage...)
Cor.

On Fri, Jun 21, 2024 at 11:36 AM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>
> Is that the reason US stopped importing citroen ? It seems counter
> productive, provided that the vehicle meets safety tests when in the
> fullest extension.
>
> I'd love a vehicle with adjustable suspension height. On freeway, set it
> to the lowest point and reduce drag. When on forest service roads, set
> to the highest extent and minimize damage to the under side. In fact,
> any average driver could benefit from increased performance: low
> clearance automatically on freeways, standard height when off freeway.
>
> Peri
>
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "Cor van de Water" 
> Sent: 20-Jun-24 18:41:08
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pros and cons
>
> >So, how is Tesla passing with their adjustable height suspension?
> >
> >On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 5:59 PM Rush via EV  wrote:
> >>
> >>  The List lackey wrote -
> >>  > The Citroen E-C3 is 23,300 euros (about US$25k).  Wih the French EV
> >>  subsidy,
> >>  > the price falls to between 15k and 18k euros, depending on your income
> >>  level
> >>  > and whether you trade in a Diesel to be scrapped.
> >>
> >>  Great to know, but Citroen has not been available in the US since the 
> >> 70's.
> >>  The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) announced a 
> >> rule
> >>  making height-adjustable suspension systems illegal due to safety 
> >> concerns.
> >>  My brother had an ID19 and when he went off to Vietnam in '72 he gave it 
> >> to
> >>  me. It was a gas to drive with the suspension and ability to corner fast,
> >>  great acceleration. But something broke and it was going to cost too much
> >>  for me to fix, so I sold it as junk.
> >>
> >>  One of its features was that if you got a flat and needed to change the
> >>  tire, all you had to do was put the adjustable extension on 'charge tire'
> >>  setting and the car was lifted high enough so you could take the tire off
> >>  and put a new one on. Just put a support under the side of the car, lower 
> >> it
> >>  again, the tires on that side are floating, just change the tire. IIRC the
> >>  ground clearance was about a foot.
> >>
> >>  Rush Dougherty
> >>  TucsonEV
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  ___
> >>  Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> >>  No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> >>  HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> >>
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Re: [EVDL] Pros and cons

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Is that the reason US stopped importing citroen ? It seems counter 
productive, provided that the vehicle meets safety tests when in the 
fullest extension.


I'd love a vehicle with adjustable suspension height. On freeway, set it 
to the lowest point and reduce drag. When on forest service roads, set 
to the highest extent and minimize damage to the under side. In fact, 
any average driver could benefit from increased performance: low 
clearance automatically on freeways, standard height when off freeway.


Peri


<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>


-- Original Message --
From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Cor van de Water" 
Sent: 20-Jun-24 18:41:08
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pros and cons


So, how is Tesla passing with their adjustable height suspension?

On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 5:59 PM Rush via EV  wrote:


 The List lackey wrote -
 > The Citroen E-C3 is 23,300 euros (about US$25k).  Wih the French EV
 subsidy,
 > the price falls to between 15k and 18k euros, depending on your income
 level
 > and whether you trade in a Diesel to be scrapped.

 Great to know, but Citroen has not been available in the US since the 70's.
 The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) announced a rule
 making height-adjustable suspension systems illegal due to safety concerns.
 My brother had an ID19 and when he went off to Vietnam in '72 he gave it to
 me. It was a gas to drive with the suspension and ability to corner fast,
 great acceleration. But something broke and it was going to cost too much
 for me to fix, so I sold it as junk.

 One of its features was that if you got a flat and needed to change the
 tire, all you had to do was put the adjustable extension on 'charge tire'
 setting and the car was lifted high enough so you could take the tire off
 and put a new one on. Just put a support under the side of the car, lower it
 again, the tires on that side are floating, just change the tire. IIRC the
 ground clearance was about a foot.

 Rush Dougherty
 TucsonEV



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Re: [EVDL] Pros and cons

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 21 Jun 2024 at 8:04, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

> I created my own back-end the cars could connect to instead of
> Tesla to get access to all the wonderful diagnostic data the cars collect,
> and make that accessible to their owners.

That's a good idea.  If I were a Tesla owner, what I'd like even better I 
would be a way to have the car talk to a server that I personally control.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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 And also on the unjust fella.
 But mostly on the just because
 The unjust steals the just's umbrella.

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Re: [EVDL] Pros and cons

[(-Phil-) via EV]

I started doing this on Teslas in 2015, and back then it was more
problematic and a grey area for DMCA.  In 2018 they passed this wonderful
exemption for car hacking:
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/10/26/2018-23241/exemption-to-prohibition-on-circumvention-of-copyright-protection-systems-for-access-control

So after that I was able to help a lot more people without fear of
reprisal.  This was back when Tesla took a much more Apple-like stance and
would not even sell you parts for any car on their "blacklist".  This
included salvage and "grey market" cars (cars removed from the area in
which they were originally sold in).  Back then, there was huge demand for
Teslas all over the world, so I assisted a lot of people in Europe, Asia,
and other places.  I've helped people all over the world fix over 3000
Teslas. I created my own back-end the cars could connect to instead of
Tesla to get access to all the wonderful diagnostic data the cars collect,
and make that accessible to their owners.

In 2016 I had a good talk with Tesla's then President of global sales and
policy and warned him that Tesla's policies were going to make the cars
uninsurable.  That got his attention!   I explained how their policies were
making repairs harder, and devaluing cars once they entered the salvage
market.  He promised he would try to fix all this, and I think he did at
least put Tesla on a track to do some of it.   IIRC, He left Tesla in 2018
to go work for Lyft.

If you are a car company and do anything to devalue a salvage car, that
means when an insurance company deems a car totaled, they are not going to
get as much money in the salvage market, thus the total cost to replace the
customer's car is much higher.  It's easy to see what happens from there.
Tesla did not fix this in time, and the cars indeed did even get dropped by
some insurance companies.  Back then you could buy them at auction for
pennies on the dollar, because nobody knew how to fix them (no service
info), and no parts (Tesla blacklist).  Tesla's solution was to start their
own insurance division.  It helped, but didn't fully solve it.  The
repercussions are still being felt today, as Tesla's service division is
horribly managed and collision parts can sometimes be many months out, so
insurance companies are more likely to total an easily fixed car because
they aren't going to fork out 3 months of rental car payments for their
annoyed customer.

If Tesla would have really taken my advice back then 8 years ago, they
would be a much better company.  But Elon is a dick.   I still believe
Tesla engineering is world-class, and makes awesome cars despite him.
Elon, if you are listening, give me a call, I'll tell you how to fix it.

I was hired in 2018 by Ateiva (Now called Lucid) as a security consultant.
They wanted advice on how to secure their cars from people like me.  Among
other things, I told Peter Rawlins that the best way to secure their cars
was to open them up.  If people can get EASY access to service and
diagnostic info, and quell curiosity, they are much less likely to engage
in determined hacking to break in.   I got the feeling they didn't take my
advice too seriously.  It's IMPOSSIBLE to secure something where the
attacker has unlimited physical access, all you can do is slow them down
and piss them off!  (I did give them other advice too)

-Phil

On Fri, Jun 21, 2024 at 3:30 AM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 20 Jun 2024 at 18:51, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
>
> > I have the ability to turn [high power charging back on ... I then
> > "jailbreak" the system so I can block any future config changes without
> > my permission, so they are unable to turn it off in the future.  I also
> > block any outbound logging ...
>
> Thanks to software copyrights and the DMCA, when you buy a Tesla - and
> many
> other vehicles and products - you're paying for nothing more than the
> right
> to use the vehicle or product in the way the manufacturer allows, for as
> long as the manufacturer lets you.
>
> You may hold the title, but you don't really own the car.
>
> And here's Phil, granting you full control over your own property.
>
> I'm honestly and pleasantly surprised that Tesla's suits aren't sending
> out
> C&D letters and DMCA notices.
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Pros and cons

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 20 Jun 2024 at 18:51, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

> I have the ability to turn [high power charging back on ... I then
> "jailbreak" the system so I can block any future config changes without
> my permission, so they are unable to turn it off in the future.  I also
> block any outbound logging ... 

Thanks to software copyrights and the DMCA, when you buy a Tesla - and many 
other vehicles and products - you're paying for nothing more than the right 
to use the vehicle or product in the way the manufacturer allows, for as 
long as the manufacturer lets you.  

You may hold the title, but you don't really own the car.

And here's Phil, granting you full control over your own property. 

I'm honestly and pleasantly surprised that Tesla's suits aren't sending out 
C&D letters and DMCA notices.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 If you aren't sure whether you can do this, just try it. 
 The worst thing that can happen is that your computer could 
 explode.  
 
-- GIMP Documentation 
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Re: [EVDL] Pros and cons

[(-Phil-) via EV]

They do indeed reach into the car and turn off supercharging once they are
aware it's been branded salvage.   I have the ability to turn this back on
in most cars, but I generally don't have to, because I get to the car
before they have turned it off.  I then "jailbreak" the system so I can
block any future config changes without my permission, so they are unable
to turn it off in the future.  I also block any outbound logging, and just
allow the basic stuff the app needs to function.

If you don't have that capability, once you repair the car, you can pay
them anywhere from $900 to $1600 (I don't know why it varies) for them to
perform a high-voltage safety inspection and if it meets their approval,
they will re-enable it.

They don't do anything else.  They leave LTE on in the car, and the Tesla
App still works on your phone to control the car.  All other services work
fine.

Generally on Model 3/Y the only thing you have to do after a collision is
replace the Pyrofuse in the "penthouse" located under the rear seat and it
will drive again, mechanicals permitting.  The only other thing of note is
to replace the airbags and any other safety systems that were deployed
(seat belt tensioners, etc).  The RCM (Restraint Control Module also needs
replacement, or someone like me to reset the crash EDR, then it will be
good to go once the mechanicals are repaired.

The car will tell you about any problems in service mode which is free, and
requires nothing else (no software or  computer needed).  Delightfully easy
to work on!

All service information available here for free: https://service.tesla.com/
Parts manual also online (you have to contact them for prices):
https://epc.tesla.com/

Plenty of 3rd party and used parts all over ebay.


On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 4:00 PM Charles Galpin <
cgal...@lighthouse-software.com> wrote:

> Phil, that sounds crazy cheap. Can you briefly describe the process of
> buying a salvage tesla and getting it back on the road? I thought Tesla
> would flag a car once it’s been written off and will not allow super
> charging (or perhaps even future support). I am guessing you are buying
> from an auction and then applying for a salvage title once repaired, but
> how do you make certain it has no structural (or other major) damage before
> buying and who inspects/certifies the repairs?
>
> Tia
>
> -- charles
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Pros and cons

[Cor van de Water via EV]

So, how is Tesla passing with their adjustable height suspension?

On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 5:59 PM Rush via EV  wrote:
>
> The List lackey wrote -
> > The Citroen E-C3 is 23,300 euros (about US$25k).  Wih the French EV
> subsidy,
> > the price falls to between 15k and 18k euros, depending on your income
> level
> > and whether you trade in a Diesel to be scrapped.
>
> Great to know, but Citroen has not been available in the US since the 70's.
> The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) announced a rule
> making height-adjustable suspension systems illegal due to safety concerns.
> My brother had an ID19 and when he went off to Vietnam in '72 he gave it to
> me. It was a gas to drive with the suspension and ability to corner fast,
> great acceleration. But something broke and it was going to cost too much
> for me to fix, so I sold it as junk.
>
> One of its features was that if you got a flat and needed to change the
> tire, all you had to do was put the adjustable extension on 'charge tire'
> setting and the car was lifted high enough so you could take the tire off
> and put a new one on. Just put a support under the side of the car, lower it
> again, the tires on that side are floating, just change the tire. IIRC the
> ground clearance was about a foot.
>
> Rush Dougherty
> TucsonEV
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Pros and cons

[Rush via EV]

The List lackey wrote - 
> The Citroen E-C3 is 23,300 euros (about US$25k).  Wih the French EV
subsidy,
> the price falls to between 15k and 18k euros, depending on your income
level
> and whether you trade in a Diesel to be scrapped.

Great to know, but Citroen has not been available in the US since the 70's.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) announced a rule
making height-adjustable suspension systems illegal due to safety concerns.
My brother had an ID19 and when he went off to Vietnam in '72 he gave it to
me. It was a gas to drive with the suspension and ability to corner fast,
great acceleration. But something broke and it was going to cost too much
for me to fix, so I sold it as junk.

One of its features was that if you got a flat and needed to change the
tire, all you had to do was put the adjustable extension on 'charge tire'
setting and the car was lifted high enough so you could take the tire off
and put a new one on. Just put a support under the side of the car, lower it
again, the tires on that side are floating, just change the tire. IIRC the
ground clearance was about a foot.

Rush Dougherty
TucsonEV



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Re: [EVDL] Pros and cons

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 20 Jun 2024 at 12:08, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

> I saw an announcement that Stellantis is bringing the Fiat 500e EV back to
> the US.  IIRC, with a 40kWh pack on a now dedicated EV platform.  That
> should make a compelling small car if they keep the cost low enough.

Stellantis has been unexpectedly serious about EVs.  They also seem bound 
and determined to meet the cheap and cheerful Chinese EVs head on.  

The Citroen E-C3 is 23,300 euros (about US$25k).  Wih the French EV subsidy, 
the price falls to between 15k and 18k euros, depending on your income level 
and whether you trade in a Diesel to be scrapped.  

Other EU countries have other subsidy schemes, but I don't know about them. 

Range 320km (200mi) WLTP, 44kWh LFP battery, 113hp, 0-100km/h in 10 seconds. 
It's obvously not a Tesla, but it's about half the price of a Y, and much 
easier to fit into European alleyways, garages, and parking spots.

https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/citroen/e-c3

There's a version with a smaller battery on the way, to be priced under 20k 
euros (US$22k).

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 If you don't get this joke, ask a nerdy friend.  If you don't 
 have any nerdy friends, try a bakery.  You can usually find 
 nerds buying pies on the 14th of March.

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Re: [EVDL] Pros and cons

[(-Phil-) via EV]

I saw an announcement that Stellantis is bringing the Fiat 500e EV back to
the US.  IIRC, with a 40kWh pack on a now dedicated EV platform.  That
should make a compelling small car if they keep the cost low enough.

I think the collapse of demand in the Auto market means we will start
seeing older Tesla Model 3's go for mid teens soon.  That's a pretty
compelling deal!  I recently restored 2 salvage rear-wheel drive Model 3's
with minimal work for around $9k each all-in for family.  (a 2018 and a
2019)  Both even have the full-self-driving option which costs what I have
in them.  Hard to beat that!

Here are the pictures of the "worst" one, Before:
http://ingineerix.com/pic/?salvage3a-before
After:
http://ingineerix.com/pic/?salvage3a-after
All "bolt on" parts except for the windshield which I had a mobile guy
install.
Both the hood and bumper are aftermarket on ebay.  Most all the parts are
now available aftermarket for dirt cheap prices, and the ones that I would
not buy, like the seatbelt tensioners, Tesla sells for a reasonable price
and had them in stock.

On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 11:47 AM Collin Kidder via EV 
wrote:

> Well, GM is going to build the Bolt EUV again, supposedly starting next
> year. As it turns out, the EUV was a much bigger deal than they thought it
> would be and they probably could have kept selling them at the same rate if
> they hadn't shut down the line to start building their new Ultium platform
> (and, yes, larger) EVs. Some may argue that the EUV isn't exactly a small
> car. It isn't that small but it's not really SUV sized either. It's
> somewhere just a little smaller than an Equinox. I have one and am very
> happy with it. The one big thing I'd want to change is the 55kw peak
> charging rate. But, the upcoming 2025 or 2026 model year EUV will do 150kw
> like their other Ultium cars. Then I might be tempted to trade up.
>
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 2:03 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > On 19 Jun 2024 at 22:09, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:
> >
> > > I also think we need more small EV options around the size of the Bolt
> EV
> > > and EUV.
> >
> > There were never very many, and now the US automakers only want to sell
> > big,
> > high-profit SUVs and pickups, electric or thermal.  They seem to have
> zero
> > interest in offering small, nimble, efficient, affordable cars.
> >
> > What can you get there now?  The current Nissan Leaf isn't really that
> > small, IMO. By world standards the Tesla 3 and Y are large cars
> > (D-segment).
> > Can you still get the Fiat 500E?
> >
> > Lots of small, affordable EVs are being built in Europe and Asia, with
> > more
> > on the way for 2025 and 2026, but hardly any of them - or even their ICEV
> > cousins - are offered in the US these days.  It's almost like the early
> > 1950s.  You can have a big, lumbering beast, or you can have a bicycle.
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >  Most of the trouble in this world has been caused by folks who
> >  can't mind their own business, because they have no business of
> >  their own to mind, any more than a smallpox virus has.
> >
> > --William Burroughs
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> > ___
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Re: [EVDL] Pros and cons

[Collin Kidder via EV]

Well, GM is going to build the Bolt EUV again, supposedly starting next
year. As it turns out, the EUV was a much bigger deal than they thought it
would be and they probably could have kept selling them at the same rate if
they hadn't shut down the line to start building their new Ultium platform
(and, yes, larger) EVs. Some may argue that the EUV isn't exactly a small
car. It isn't that small but it's not really SUV sized either. It's
somewhere just a little smaller than an Equinox. I have one and am very
happy with it. The one big thing I'd want to change is the 55kw peak
charging rate. But, the upcoming 2025 or 2026 model year EUV will do 150kw
like their other Ultium cars. Then I might be tempted to trade up.

On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 2:03 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 19 Jun 2024 at 22:09, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:
>
> > I also think we need more small EV options around the size of the Bolt EV
> > and EUV.
>
> There were never very many, and now the US automakers only want to sell
> big,
> high-profit SUVs and pickups, electric or thermal.  They seem to have zero
> interest in offering small, nimble, efficient, affordable cars.
>
> What can you get there now?  The current Nissan Leaf isn't really that
> small, IMO. By world standards the Tesla 3 and Y are large cars
> (D-segment).
> Can you still get the Fiat 500E?
>
> Lots of small, affordable EVs are being built in Europe and Asia, with
> more
> on the way for 2025 and 2026, but hardly any of them - or even their ICEV
> cousins - are offered in the US these days.  It's almost like the early
> 1950s.  You can have a big, lumbering beast, or you can have a bicycle.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>  Most of the trouble in this world has been caused by folks who
>  can't mind their own business, because they have no business of
>  their own to mind, any more than a smallpox virus has.
>
> --William Burroughs
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> ___
> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Pros and cons

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 19 Jun 2024 at 22:09, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:

> I also think we need more small EV options around the size of the Bolt EV
> and EUV.

There were never very many, and now the US automakers only want to sell big, 
high-profit SUVs and pickups, electric or thermal.  They seem to have zero 
interest in offering small, nimble, efficient, affordable cars.  

What can you get there now?  The current Nissan Leaf isn't really that 
small, IMO. By world standards the Tesla 3 and Y are large cars (D-segment). 
Can you still get the Fiat 500E? 

Lots of small, affordable EVs are being built in Europe and Asia, with more 
on the way for 2025 and 2026, but hardly any of them - or even their ICEV 
cousins - are offered in the US these days.  It's almost like the early 
1950s.  You can have a big, lumbering beast, or you can have a bicycle.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 Most of the trouble in this world has been caused by folks who 
 can't mind their own business, because they have no business of 
 their own to mind, any more than a smallpox virus has. 

--William Burroughs 
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] Pros and cons

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

In light of that XKCD, we're going to need more hands. :D

I also think we need more small EV options around the size of the Bolt EV
and EUV. Unfortunately those are discontinued and had weak DCFC.



On Wed, Jun 19, 2024, 21:42 EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:

> https://xkcd.com/2948/
>
> :-)
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>  We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and
>  technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about
>  science and technology.
>
>-- Carl Sagan
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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