Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.

[Willie via EV]

I met these folks earlier this year at the Junction Texas SuperCharger:
https://teslaxcanada.com/

They were really enjoying life.  Traveling ambassadors for Tesla and EVs 
in general. Pulling that teardrop cut their range from ~250 miles to 
probably less than 150.  In addition to having the SuperCharger to 
SuperCharger jumps a bit iffy, they went many places where there were no 
SuperChargers.  Their primary charging was in RV parks though they 
carried a wide variety of adapters so they could more slowly charge 
about anywhere.   With the teardrop, they could be VERY comfortable 
while waiting out a charge.  The PV on the teardrop was about 800 watts, 
as I recall.  It was used primarily for 12v charging (some LFP cells on 
the tongue).  The 12v was primarily for trailer use but, in a pinch, 
they could do a little car charging.  I figure as much as about 5kwh per 
day.


Soon after I got my Tesla, I bought a much smaller teardrop thinking I 
would do similar slow traveling and wait out RV park charges.  The range 
reduction was more than expected and I never used it for that purpose. 
In addition, SuperChargers proliferated FAR wider and FAR faster than I 
expected.  At the time I bought my teardrop (out of Wisconsin), I had to 
make the jump from the SuperCharger in Corsicana Texas to the one in 
Normal Illinois, putting about four RV park stops between.

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Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

If you do the math, you will find solar vehicles make no sense, period.


Al

Absolutes?  I don't think so.  A 4 passenger solar vehicle(with a trunk) holds 
a record of 932 miles on one full charge.  That makes sense.  What doesn't make 
sense is putting solar on a typical conversion.  But if the panel is big enough 
it will work.  This is the exception: http://www.solarelectricvwbus.com/ They 
are converting this vehicle to lithium and enlarging/updating the panel.  
Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.

[Dan Baker via EV]

I agree that Solar vehicles are practical in certain applications.  The
ability to charge and move in remote areas without relying upon any
external infrastructure is very appealing to a certain audience.  Just look
at the explosive growth (pun not intended) in home battery storage, no one
thought that owning and maintaining a home pack would be attractive to so
many. Creating and storing your own energy didn't sound practical for homes
on paper, so why can't it work for vehicles?

My Solar Firefly (link below) certainly wasn't built for the ocean or even
a lake larger than few miles long.  It is very odd looking and considered
fugly by most. But it works great on my 1.5 mile long lake where a sailboat
wouldn't be practical.  It has done so for 6 years now and no one will
argue its the best boat to fish off- especially the 5 gentlemen I had on
the other day that caught 26 Bass!

Not every car owner drives their vehicles every day- many only once or
twice a week.  Plenty of daylight time to charge a pack for a couple
commutes.  Like Willie said It's these niche few that will drive mainstream
adoption tomorrow even when it's not practical today for most.

Cheers
Dan

http://www.evalbum.com/3432


On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 3:30 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:

>
>
> On 09/27/2017 09:01 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>
>> Maybe you can do it as a hobbyist project.  I don't see it as a viable
>> mass
>> produced commercial product for a long time yet, if ever.
>>
>> It would have to be competitive with current vehicles at initial
>> dealer-lot
>> price, because that's all most buyers see.
>>
>> Also, it can't be too odd-looking.  Anything based on the Stella Lux
>> flunks
>> that one right off.
>>
>
> Most here have been advocates of conversions for many years.  That is
> despite the obvious impracticality of conversions: batteries worth
> $thousands that last ~10k miles or a few years.  Useful ranges of 30-40
> miles.  VERY low reliability and high maintenance.  Yet we are justifiably
> proud that we have led the way to the current factory cars that have few to
> none of those problems.
>
> I do not see why at least mostly solar powered cars can not follow the
> same path.  I'm willing to contribute to the demand; I am a prospective
> customer.  I would love to be offered a car or RV BEV that could go 200
> miles and add 50 miles of solar per day.
>
> I do not care what it looks like.  Form follows function.  Beauty is in
> the eye of the beholder.
>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.

[Willie via EV]

On 09/27/2017 09:01 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

Maybe you can do it as a hobbyist project.  I don't see it as a viable mass
produced commercial product for a long time yet, if ever.

It would have to be competitive with current vehicles at initial dealer-lot
price, because that's all most buyers see.

Also, it can't be too odd-looking.  Anything based on the Stella Lux flunks
that one right off.


Most here have been advocates of conversions for many years.  That is 
despite the obvious impracticality of conversions: batteries worth 
$thousands that last ~10k miles or a few years.  Useful ranges of 30-40 
miles.  VERY low reliability and high maintenance.  Yet we are 
justifiably proud that we have led the way to the current factory cars 
that have few to none of those problems.


I do not see why at least mostly solar powered cars can not follow the 
same path.  I'm willing to contribute to the demand; I am a prospective 
customer.  I would love to be offered a car or RV BEV that could go 200 
miles and add 50 miles of solar per day.


I do not care what it looks like.  Form follows function.  Beauty is in 
the eye of the beholder.

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Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math

[63urban via EV]

Rv ers are a dedicated lot. Those that are into it as a lifestyle will do the 
math. If it works from a functional stand point ugly is definately in the eye 
of the beholder.
Lots of retirees tootle  down the road at barely 55 mph. Theyre in no hurry and 
if they are self contained they don't need a huge range.
Nick
If I could I would!


Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.

 Original message 
From: Lawrence Rhodes via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
Date: 2017-09-29  2:01 PM  (GMT-05:00) 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
Cc: Lawrence Rhodes <primobass...@sbcglobal.net> 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math 

David said:
Maybe you can do it as a hobbyist project.  I don't see it as a viable mass 
produced commercial product for a long time yet, if ever.  

It would have to be competitive with current vehicles at initial dealer-lot 
price, because that's all most buyers see. 

Also, it can't be too odd-looking.  Anything based on the Stella Lux flunks 
that one right off.
Oh I don't think so  Have you seen the ugly motor homes with a Ford F-450 
cab over box on frame...ugly ugly ugly but they sell.  If the vehicle is 
functional and has all the options people need it will sell.  If you come up 
with a fuel less/cheap to run RV it will sell like hotcakes.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

David said:
Maybe you can do it as a hobbyist project.  I don't see it as a viable mass 
produced commercial product for a long time yet, if ever.  

It would have to be competitive with current vehicles at initial dealer-lot 
price, because that's all most buyers see. 

Also, it can't be too odd-looking.  Anything based on the Stella Lux flunks 
that one right off.
Oh I don't think so  Have you seen the ugly motor homes with a Ford F-450 
cab over box on frame...ugly ugly ugly but they sell.  If the vehicle is 
functional and has all the options people need it will sell.  If you come up 
with a fuel less/cheap to run RV it will sell like hotcakes.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.

[Sean Korb via EV]

I kind of like where the math takes you.  I was imagining a world
where every individual  had a 450lb vehicle 50 feet long and 5 feet
wide that went 50MPH, self driving of course, with only 1 car per
person it could all be scheduled out to arrive to pick you up and
deliver to your destination in perfect traffic in perfect timing with
perfect predictability.

I really liked it.  It was a very relaxing concept.  Unfortunately
I've never been good at engineering humans and their behavior and am
yet to meet someone who does :)

I think our current market where "safer" means an escalation in heavy
armor to protect occupants from ever more heavily armored vehicles may
end badly and is antithetical to solar powered vehicles.  An armored
suit and a helmet is lightweight probably adequate for most but it's
hard to get people to wear them under the best of conditions.

sean

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 9:21 PM, Alan Arrison via EV  wrote:
> If you do the math, you will find solar vehicles make no sense, period.
>
> Al
>
>
>
> On 9/27/2017 10:01 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>>
>> Maybe you can do it as a hobbyist project.  I don't see it as a viable
>> mass
>> produced commercial product for a long time yet, if ever.
>>
>> It would have to be competitive with current vehicles at initial
>> dealer-lot
>> price, because that's all most buyers see.
>>
>> Also, it can't be too odd-looking.  Anything based on the Stella Lux
>> flunks
>> that one right off.
>>
>> A scant few buyers will/can pay more up front for low running costs, and a
>> few of THEM might accept a weird looking vehicle.  By then you're getting
>> down to a microscopic potential customer base.
>>
>> You're not going to find venture capitalists interested in that kind of
>> risk, and unfortunately we're currently experiencing a severe shortage of
>> Elon Musks.
>>
>> So if you want one, better get to work.
>>
>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>> EVDL Administrator
>>
>>
>
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>



-- 
Sean Korb spk...@spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
'65 Suprang,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
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Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.

[Larry Gales via EV]

Well, the Stella Lux seems to make sense to me

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Alan Arrison via EV 
wrote:

> If you do the math, you will find solar vehicles make no sense, period.
>
> Al
>
>
>
> On 9/27/2017 10:01 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>
>> Maybe you can do it as a hobbyist project.  I don't see it as a viable
>> mass
>> produced commercial product for a long time yet, if ever.
>>
>> It would have to be competitive with current vehicles at initial
>> dealer-lot
>> price, because that's all most buyers see.
>>
>> Also, it can't be too odd-looking.  Anything based on the Stella Lux
>> flunks
>> that one right off.
>>
>> A scant few buyers will/can pay more up front for low running costs, and a
>> few of THEM might accept a weird looking vehicle.  By then you're getting
>> down to a microscopic potential customer base.
>>
>> You're not going to find venture capitalists interested in that kind of
>> risk, and unfortunately we're currently experiencing a severe shortage of
>> Elon Musks.
>>
>> So if you want one, better get to work.
>>
>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>> EVDL Administrator
>>
>>
>>
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>


-- 
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Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.

[Alan Arrison via EV]

If you do the math, you will find solar vehicles make no sense, period.

Al



On 9/27/2017 10:01 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

Maybe you can do it as a hobbyist project.  I don't see it as a viable mass
produced commercial product for a long time yet, if ever.

It would have to be competitive with current vehicles at initial dealer-lot
price, because that's all most buyers see.

Also, it can't be too odd-looking.  Anything based on the Stella Lux flunks
that one right off.

A scant few buyers will/can pay more up front for low running costs, and a
few of THEM might accept a weird looking vehicle.  By then you're getting
down to a microscopic potential customer base.

You're not going to find venture capitalists interested in that kind of
risk, and unfortunately we're currently experiencing a severe shortage of
Elon Musks.

So if you want one, better get to work.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator




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Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

Maybe you can do it as a hobbyist project.  I don't see it as a viable mass 
produced commercial product for a long time yet, if ever.  

It would have to be competitive with current vehicles at initial dealer-lot 
price, because that's all most buyers see. 

Also, it can't be too odd-looking.  Anything based on the Stella Lux flunks 
that one right off.

A scant few buyers will/can pay more up front for low running costs, and a 
few of THEM might accept a weird looking vehicle.  By then you're getting 
down to a microscopic potential customer base.

You're not going to find venture capitalists interested in that kind of 
risk, and unfortunately we're currently experiencing a severe shortage of 
Elon Musks.

So if you want one, better get to work.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

I think a formula of 1.5kw of panels for every 1000 pounds of vehicle might be 
a good working formula.  If you want the panels to push the vehicle. LR

  From: jerry freedomev <freedo...@yahoo.com>
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
Cc: Lawrence Rhodes <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>
 Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 5:23 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.
   

                            Hi Lawrence and All,
                                      A solar RV can be done if one keeps it 
light, aero one large enough to live in with 6' standing headroom in some 
places by making a composite body like a cut off teardrop but instead use curve 
flat panels for the roof, , sides and a flat floor.
                                    Using gentle curves can give you an under 
.20DC little larger than a standard van with shower, kitchen, head if a good 
designer. We do it all the time in boats.  And can be done in 2k lbs if one 
works at it. 
                                      The rear will be 85% of the widest part 
that a solar panel folds down to cover and as shade, rain cover when folding 
out to catch more solar when parked 
                                    If one drives 55 mph it will only need 7kw 
or so correctly done with a 24kwh pack is 160 mile range.
                                      There are 1/16" thick solar cells on thin 
strong plastic film that are clean enough to be aero, very low weight and IIRC 
17% or so efficient made for flexible panels would be far better, lighter than 
anything else.
                                    So on the roof would be 10 sq yards giving 
about 1.7kwh or so at noon gives say 8kwh/day seriously helps range getting to 
maybe 50 added miles. Parked charged more like 10kwh plus 4 more sq yards of 
folding solar giving another 3kwh/day 
                                  So you'd average 60-80 mpd from just solar, 
minus use.  Assuming you didn't use more fold out lightweight solar panels 
gaining even more range/day.
                                                          Jerry Dycus



On Wed, 9/27/17, Lawrence Rhodes via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.
 To: "spk...@gmail.com" <spk...@gmail.com>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
 Cc: "Lawrence Rhodes" <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>
 Date: Wednesday, September 27, 2017, 5:52 PM
 
 The whole point with a solar
 vehicle is to be completely free of the grid most of the
 time.  Charging from your roof solar is not bad but not
 optimal. You can't charge with your roof top solar
 unless you are home.  So when your car is parked usually
 away from home that is when you need it. A vehicle the size
 of a Tesla S can hold at least 1.5kwmaybe a little
 more...BTW you can't just use solar panels on the roof
 of a vehicle.  You need special encapsulation for weight
 and aerodynamics.  Lawrence Rhodes
 
       From: Sean Korb <spk...@gmail.com>
  To: Lawrence Rhodes <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>;
 Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 10:39
 AM
  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just
 do the math.
    
 I think
 you can get 15W/sqft and my Volt is not very efficient I
 often
 need 16KW if I take it easy but even
 at 8kw you would need  533sq feet
 of solar
 panels 23ft by 23ft.  So... not a great deal but with a
 32KWh
 battery pack you could charge it with
 a 23x23 panel on your roof in 4
 hours. 
 That sounds like a better deal and very manageable.
 
 sean
 
 
 
 
 
 On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 1:05
 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV
 <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 wrote:
 > It seems people are
 underestimating the capacity of solar panels on vehicles. 
 It is a simple math problem. Encapsulation is also a
 challenge. However I don't have the math to calculate
 how fast a 3.3kw solar system would push a 3000 pound
 vehicle.  It seems you would need 8kw to push a Leaf up to
 45mph.  This is just a guess but it seems to me that a
 simple calculation of weight, CD, array size would be all
 you would need to calculate the usefulness of any solar
 vehicle.  Stella Lux is capable of 45mph with a 1.5kw solar
 panel, a weight of 850 pounds(it can carry 4 people) and a
 CD of .16.  If you have a 22 ft x 8' vehicle like an
 aluminum Ultravan at 3,000 pounds (which is less than a
 Leaf)  you would have good range but calculating how much
 solar would fit, the CD which I think is under .3 and the
 speed possible with the max panels is beyond me.  I do know
 that if you had a 3.3kw array you would be able to charge a
 24kw pack in 10 hours making a useful vehicle. It might be
 able to do 20mph on solar.  I bet Dave Cloud could figure
 it out.  The Dolphin is a very cleaver vehicle.  I wish I
 had some land to work on an 

Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

The Dutch used 5 thousand dollars of Sunpower 24.1% efficient cells. Off the 
shelf parts.  Nothing exotic. When making a car and this is your power it is 
cheap. Think how long 5 thousand dollars would  run a gas car.  So you have to 
have the most efficient cells and a better body.  New thinking.  I'm not saying 
give up your EVSE at home just yet but why not have solar on top of something 
that is sitting 22 hours a day.  That said you will have to build a body that 
is capable of being pushed by solar.  Quite a task. But possible.   Lawrence 
Rhodes

  From: Robert Bruninga <bruni...@usna.edu>
 To: Lawrence Rhodes <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List <ev@lists.evdl.org>; spk...@gmail.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 3:10 PM
 Subject: RE: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.
   
But anyone who does not have a good place to park and charge at home
overnight is simply not a good candidate for an EV.  Trying to fix that with
solar panels on the roof of the EV is a very expensive way to go.  Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via
EV
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 5:53 PM
To: spk...@gmail.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Lawrence Rhodes
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.

The whole point with a solar vehicle is to be completely free of the grid
most of the time.  Charging from your roof solar is not bad but not optimal.
You can't charge with your roof top solar unless you are home.  So when your
car is parked usually away from home that is when you need it. A vehicle the
size of a Tesla S can hold at least 1.5kwmaybe a little more...BTW you
can't just use solar panels on the roof of a vehicle.  You need special
encapsulation for weight and aerodynamics.  Lawrence Rhodes

      From: Sean Korb <spk...@gmail.com>
 To: Lawrence Rhodes <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>; Electric Vehicle
Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 10:39 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.

I think you can get 15W/sqft and my Volt is not very efficient I often need
16KW if I take it easy but even at 8kw you would need  533sq feet of solar
panels 23ft by 23ft.  So... not a great deal but with a 32KWh battery pack
you could charge it with a 23x23 panel on your roof in 4 hours.  That sounds
like a better deal and very manageable.

sean





On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:
> It seems people are underestimating the capacity of solar panels on
> vehicles.  It is a simple math problem. Encapsulation is also a
> challenge. However I don't have the math to calculate how fast a 3.3kw
> solar system would push a 3000 pound vehicle.  It seems you would need
> 8kw to push a Leaf up to 45mph.  This is just a guess but it seems to
> me that a simple calculation of weight, CD, array size would be all
> you would need to calculate the usefulness of any solar vehicle.
> Stella Lux is capable of 45mph with a 1.5kw solar panel, a weight of
> 850 pounds(it can carry 4 people) and a CD of .16.  If you have a 22
> ft x 8' vehicle like an aluminum Ultravan at 3,000 pounds (which is
> less than a Leaf)  you would have good range but calculating how much
> solar would fit, the CD which I think is under .3 and the speed
> possible with the max panels is beyond me.  I do know that if you had
> a 3.3kw array you would be able to charge a 24kw pack in 10 hours
> making a useful vehicle. It might be able to do 20mph on solar.  I bet
> Dave Cloud could figure it out.  The Dolphin is a very cleaver
> vehicle.  I wish I had some land to work on an Ultravan.  Lawrence
> Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.

[jerry freedomev via EV]

Hi Lawrence and All,
   A solar RV can be done if one keeps it 
light, aero one large enough to live in with 6' standing headroom in some 
places by making a composite body like a cut off teardrop but instead use curve 
flat panels for the roof, , sides and a flat floor.
 Using gentle curves can give you an under 
.20DC little larger than a standard van with shower, kitchen, head if a good 
designer. We do it all the time in boats.  And can be done in 2k lbs if one 
works at it. 
  The rear will be 85% of the widest part 
that a solar panel folds down to cover and as shade, rain cover when folding 
out to catch more solar when parked 
 If one drives 55 mph it will only need 7kw 
or so correctly done with a 24kwh pack is 160 mile range.
  There are 1/16" thick solar cells on thin 
strong plastic film that are clean enough to be aero, very low weight and IIRC 
17% or so efficient made for flexible panels would be far better, lighter than 
anything else.
 So on the roof would be 10 sq yards giving 
about 1.7kwh or so at noon gives say 8kwh/day seriously helps range getting to 
maybe 50 added miles. Parked charged more like 10kwh plus 4 more sq yards of 
folding solar giving another 3kwh/day 
   So you'd average 60-80 mpd from just solar, 
minus use.  Assuming you didn't use more fold out lightweight solar panels 
gaining even more range/day.
  Jerry Dycus



On Wed, 9/27/17, Lawrence Rhodes via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.
 To: "spk...@gmail.com" <spk...@gmail.com>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
 Cc: "Lawrence Rhodes" <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>
 Date: Wednesday, September 27, 2017, 5:52 PM
 
 The whole point with a solar
 vehicle is to be completely free of the grid most of the
 time.  Charging from your roof solar is not bad but not
 optimal. You can't charge with your roof top solar
 unless you are home.  So when your car is parked usually
 away from home that is when you need it. A vehicle the size
 of a Tesla S can hold at least 1.5kwmaybe a little
 more...BTW you can't just use solar panels on the roof
 of a vehicle.  You need special encapsulation for weight
 and aerodynamics.  Lawrence Rhodes
 
       From: Sean Korb <spk...@gmail.com>
  To: Lawrence Rhodes <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>;
 Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 10:39
 AM
  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just
 do the math.
    
 I think
 you can get 15W/sqft and my Volt is not very efficient I
 often
 need 16KW if I take it easy but even
 at 8kw you would need  533sq feet
 of solar
 panels 23ft by 23ft.  So... not a great deal but with a
 32KWh
 battery pack you could charge it with
 a 23x23 panel on your roof in 4
 hours. 
 That sounds like a better deal and very manageable.
 
 sean
 
 
 
 
 
 On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 1:05
 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV
 <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 wrote:
 > It seems people are
 underestimating the capacity of solar panels on vehicles. 
 It is a simple math problem. Encapsulation is also a
 challenge. However I don't have the math to calculate
 how fast a 3.3kw solar system would push a 3000 pound
 vehicle.  It seems you would need 8kw to push a Leaf up to
 45mph.  This is just a guess but it seems to me that a
 simple calculation of weight, CD, array size would be all
 you would need to calculate the usefulness of any solar
 vehicle.  Stella Lux is capable of 45mph with a 1.5kw solar
 panel, a weight of 850 pounds(it can carry 4 people) and a
 CD of .16.  If you have a 22 ft x 8' vehicle like an
 aluminum Ultravan at 3,000 pounds (which is less than a
 Leaf)  you would have good range but calculating how much
 solar would fit, the CD which I think is under .3 and the
 speed possible with the max panels is beyond me.  I do know
 that if you had a 3.3kw array you would be able to charge a
 24kw pack in 10 hours making a useful vehicle. It might be
 able to do 20mph on solar.  I bet Dave Cloud could figure
 it out.  The Dolphin is a very cleaver vehicle.  I wish I
 had some land to work on an Ultravan.  Lawrence Rhodes
 > -- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

I still say there is nothing at all economical about several thousand
dollars of solar cells sitting on a car that *are-only -used* for the 5% of
the day it is actually propelling the car under good solar illumination.

So the goal of solar is still a 95% issue of charging, not a 5% issue of
direct propulsion.  To think otherwise and try to force the solar panels to
only have value during 5% of the day it is propulsing in full sun does not
make much economical sense.

But maybe we are in violent agreement... and I am just misunderstanding your
approach.
Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via
EV
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 6:25 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Lawrence Rhodes
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.

Bob Said:The practical application of solar panels on a car are not for
propulsionbut for charging while parked.  The typical car sits at work under
the sun for 8 hours a day.  With just 500W worth of solar panels during an 8
hour day, replenishes possibly 10 miles of range.  Usually plenty enough to
get back home for the small EV and commuting.
This is true for the typical conversion or OEM EV.  However as you lower the
weight and raise the quantity of panels you will find the solar vehicle more
useful.  In other words you are thinking in an old engineering way.  We need
to think lighter. Like an RV that is 22 feet long 8 feet wide.  About as
light as a Nissan Leaf.  You say this is impossible uuuh... They made them
in the 60's and 70's.  Called the Ultravan they were ahead of their time.
Getting 18mpg with a Corvair motor.  They were constructed like an airplane
fuselage out of aluminum.  Many are still on the road.  A few used ones go
up for sale from time to time. A Leaf drive train in one would be very
useful.  I am sure you could get close to 4kw of solar panels on one.
Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

Bob Said:The practical application of solar panels on a car are not for 
propulsionbut for charging while parked.  The typical car sits at work under 
the sun
for 8 hours a day.  With just 500W worth of solar panels during an 8 hour
day, replenishes possibly 10 miles of range.  Usually plenty enough to get
back home for the small EV and commuting.
This is true for the typical conversion or OEM EV.  However as you lower the 
weight and raise the quantity of panels you will find the solar vehicle more 
useful.  In other words you are thinking in an old engineering way.  We need to 
think lighter. Like an RV that is 22 feet long 8 feet wide.  About as light as 
a Nissan Leaf.  You say this is impossible uuuh... They made them in the 60's 
and 70's.  Called the Ultravan they were ahead of their time.  Getting 18mpg 
with a Corvair motor.  They were constructed like an airplane fuselage out of 
aluminum.  Many are still on the road.  A few used ones go up for sale from 
time to time. A Leaf drive train in one would be very useful.  I am sure you 
could get close to 4kw of solar panels on one.  Lawrence Rhodes  
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Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

But anyone who does not have a good place to park and charge at home
overnight is simply not a good candidate for an EV.  Trying to fix that with
solar panels on the roof of the EV is a very expensive way to go.  Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via
EV
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 5:53 PM
To: spk...@gmail.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Lawrence Rhodes
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.

The whole point with a solar vehicle is to be completely free of the grid
most of the time.  Charging from your roof solar is not bad but not optimal.
You can't charge with your roof top solar unless you are home.  So when your
car is parked usually away from home that is when you need it. A vehicle the
size of a Tesla S can hold at least 1.5kwmaybe a little more...BTW you
can't just use solar panels on the roof of a vehicle.  You need special
encapsulation for weight and aerodynamics.  Lawrence Rhodes

  From: Sean Korb <spk...@gmail.com>
 To: Lawrence Rhodes <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>; Electric Vehicle
Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 10:39 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.

I think you can get 15W/sqft and my Volt is not very efficient I often need
16KW if I take it easy but even at 8kw you would need  533sq feet of solar
panels 23ft by 23ft.  So... not a great deal but with a 32KWh battery pack
you could charge it with a 23x23 panel on your roof in 4 hours.  That sounds
like a better deal and very manageable.

sean





On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:
> It seems people are underestimating the capacity of solar panels on
> vehicles.  It is a simple math problem. Encapsulation is also a
> challenge. However I don't have the math to calculate how fast a 3.3kw
> solar system would push a 3000 pound vehicle.  It seems you would need
> 8kw to push a Leaf up to 45mph.  This is just a guess but it seems to
> me that a simple calculation of weight, CD, array size would be all
> you would need to calculate the usefulness of any solar vehicle.
> Stella Lux is capable of 45mph with a 1.5kw solar panel, a weight of
> 850 pounds(it can carry 4 people) and a CD of .16.  If you have a 22
> ft x 8' vehicle like an aluminum Ultravan at 3,000 pounds (which is
> less than a Leaf)  you would have good range but calculating how much
> solar would fit, the CD which I think is under .3 and the speed
> possible with the max panels is beyond me.  I do know that if you had
> a 3.3kw array you would be able to charge a 24kw pack in 10 hours
> making a useful vehicle. It might be able to do 20mph on solar.  I bet
> Dave Cloud could figure it out.  The Dolphin is a very cleaver
> vehicle.  I wish I had some land to work on an Ultravan.  Lawrence
> Rhodes
> -- next part -- An HTML attachment was
> scrubbed...
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> racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>



--
Sean Korb spk...@spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
'65 Suprang,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382 "The
more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller "Computers are
useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso


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Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

The whole point with a solar vehicle is to be completely free of the grid most 
of the time.  Charging from your roof solar is not bad but not optimal. You 
can't charge with your roof top solar unless you are home.  So when your car is 
parked usually away from home that is when you need it. A vehicle the size of a 
Tesla S can hold at least 1.5kwmaybe a little more...BTW you can't just use 
solar panels on the roof of a vehicle.  You need special encapsulation for 
weight and aerodynamics.  Lawrence Rhodes

  From: Sean Korb <spk...@gmail.com>
 To: Lawrence Rhodes <primobass...@sbcglobal.net>; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
 Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 10:39 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.
   
I think you can get 15W/sqft and my Volt is not very efficient I often
need 16KW if I take it easy but even at 8kw you would need  533sq feet
of solar panels 23ft by 23ft.  So... not a great deal but with a 32KWh
battery pack you could charge it with a 23x23 panel on your roof in 4
hours.  That sounds like a better deal and very manageable.

sean





On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV
<ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> It seems people are underestimating the capacity of solar panels on vehicles. 
>  It is a simple math problem. Encapsulation is also a challenge. However I 
> don't have the math to calculate how fast a 3.3kw solar system would push a 
> 3000 pound vehicle.  It seems you would need 8kw to push a Leaf up to 45mph.  
> This is just a guess but it seems to me that a simple calculation of weight, 
> CD, array size would be all you would need to calculate the usefulness of any 
> solar vehicle.  Stella Lux is capable of 45mph with a 1.5kw solar panel, a 
> weight of 850 pounds(it can carry 4 people) and a CD of .16.  If you have a 
> 22 ft x 8' vehicle like an aluminum Ultravan at 3,000 pounds (which is less 
> than a Leaf)  you would have good range but calculating how much solar would 
> fit, the CD which I think is under .3 and the speed possible with the max 
> panels is beyond me.  I do know that if you had a 3.3kw array you would be 
> able to charge a 24kw pack in 10 hours making a useful vehicle. It might be 
> able to do 20mph on solar.  I bet Dave Cloud could figure it out.  The 
> Dolphin is a very cleaver vehicle.  I wish I had some land to work on an 
> Ultravan.  Lawrence Rhodes
> -- next part --
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> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>



-- 
Sean Korb spk...@spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
'65 Suprang,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso

   
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Re: [EVDL] Solar vehicles..just do the math.

[Sean Korb via EV]

I think you can get 15W/sqft and my Volt is not very efficient I often
need 16KW if I take it easy but even at 8kw you would need  533sq feet
of solar panels 23ft by 23ft.  So... not a great deal but with a 32KWh
battery pack you could charge it with a 23x23 panel on your roof in 4
hours.  That sounds like a better deal and very manageable.

sean





On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV
 wrote:
> It seems people are underestimating the capacity of solar panels on vehicles. 
>  It is a simple math problem. Encapsulation is also a challenge. However I 
> don't have the math to calculate how fast a 3.3kw solar system would push a 
> 3000 pound vehicle.  It seems you would need 8kw to push a Leaf up to 45mph.  
> This is just a guess but it seems to me that a simple calculation of weight, 
> CD, array size would be all you would need to calculate the usefulness of any 
> solar vehicle.  Stella Lux is capable of 45mph with a 1.5kw solar panel, a 
> weight of 850 pounds(it can carry 4 people) and a CD of .16.  If you have a 
> 22 ft x 8' vehicle like an aluminum Ultravan at 3,000 pounds (which is less 
> than a Leaf)  you would have good range but calculating how much solar would 
> fit, the CD which I think is under .3 and the speed possible with the max 
> panels is beyond me.  I do know that if you had a 3.3kw array you would be 
> able to charge a 24kw pack in 10 hours making a useful vehicle. It might be 
> able 
 to do 20mph on solar.  I bet Dave Cloud could figure it out.  The Dolphin is a 
very cleaver vehicle.  I wish I had some land to work on an Ultravan.  Lawrence 
Rhodes
> -- next part --
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> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>



-- 
Sean Korb spk...@spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
'65 Suprang,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
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