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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Tesla batteries (Was: EV attitudes) ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
2. Re: Converting from watt-hours/mi. to mi/gal & bac
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
3. Re: Converting from watt-hours/mi. to mi/gal & bac (Roland Wiench)
4. Re: Electric-car driver sets sights on 136 mph (David Dymaxion)
5. Re: New Optima Pack ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
6. Electric motorcycle at Salt Flats BUB meet? (David Dymaxion)
7. Re: Electric motorcycle at Salt Flats BUB meet? (keith vansickle)
8. Re: Electric-car driver sets sights on 136 mph
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
9. Re: EV attitudes (Al)
10. Re: Electric-car driver sets sights on 136 mph (keith vansickle)
11. Re: Controller cheap? (Lee Hart)
12. Re: New Optima Pack (Ralph Merwin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 08:11:40 -0700
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla batteries (Was: EV attitudes)
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I'd say the same thing about LiCo as well, although inertia has a way of
keeping things going for a while.
That is, assuming the battery packs don't have to be significantly bigger.
I mean, do you think the laptop manufacturers like accepting the risk that
their battery packs can burst into flames?
I think this is what to look for as far as dropping the price of LiFePo.
-----Original Message-----
I see no way NIMH will survive now. cells like the A123 ones have double
the energy density and how many times greater power..?
and if not already then soon probably cheeper too. I dare say NIMH is dead
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 08:13:38 -0700
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Converting from watt-hours/mi. to mi/gal & bac
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Where does he get the biodiesel to begin with?
-----Original Message-----
Sometimes you cannot take cents per mile. A fiend of mine runs his vehicle
on bio-diesel that only cost him a paper paint filter to filter 5 gallons of
it at a time.
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 09:23:28 -0600
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Converting from watt-hours/mi. to mi/gal & bac
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
He gets it from the Cross Roads Caf? in Montana where they had to paid some
one to remove about 5 gallons a week.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Converting from watt-hours/mi. to mi/gal & bac
> Where does he get the biodiesel to begin with?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Sometimes you cannot take cents per mile. A fiend of mine runs his
> vehicle
> on bio-diesel that only cost him a paper paint filter to filter 5 gallons
> of
>
> it at a time.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 08:40:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric-car driver sets sights on 136 mph
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
He is using a Zilla controller. You can see a picture of the controller and
motor here: <http://www.explodingdinosaurs.com/race2thefuture18Aug2007/> .
I'm planning to go to the Salt Flats Wednesday to watch them run, I'll see if
they'll tell me what the secret batteries are, the motor and its timing, and
what the controller current limit is.
Just for fun and bragging rights, does anyone want to guess what speed they'll
run? I'll tender my guess later.
----- Original Message ----
From: Timothy Balcer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2007 8:20:27 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric-car driver sets sights on 136 mph
I wish there were more specs! 12 'Motorcycle batteries'? I mean COME
ON. What brand? AH? What motor/controller is he using? gah!
:-)
On 9/8/07, Richard Furniss <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Las Vegas Electrical Vehicle Association member Brent and Kent Singleton are
> requesting that people read this article from the Deseret News about the
> upcoming "World of Speed" event at the Bonneville Salt Flats and email
> their comments so that the Deseret News publishers will receive strong
> positive feedback (votes) for publishing articles like it:
>
> http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695206731,00.html
>
> It takes a lot of time and hard work to make a run on the salt flats in a EV
> so Let's
> support Brent by reading the newspaper article and leaving a comment
> and/or e-mailing the newspaper.
>
> Thanks for your help and support.
>
>
> Richard Furniss
> is it suppose to smoke like that ?
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:55:37 -0400
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Yes, I did notice that after this thread started, however, what
actually happened supported my initial interpretation that 15.6 volts
was the limit. Additionally, after this thread started, I removed the
regs. The car has been driven and charged as before and the capacity
has not changed. I say capacity, I am really referring to the no load
voltage after reaching routine destinations and the voltage sag at
specific amps during the trip. It's only been a week (a little over 100
miles) so that is probably not conclusive.
My confusion, is that the batteries that went over 16 volts were the
ones that died. Since putting the 15.6 volt regs on, the pack has
remained stable. the regs have only been on for about 4 months, or
about 1600 miles. Perhaps that is not enough time?
I really would like to know more about this since my experience seems
to conflict with what I read.
Could the difference be the charge time? instead of 2 amps for 1 hour,
it is getting 1 amp pulse for 6 hours (if over 15.6 volts) or 2.5 amps
pulse (if under 15.6 volts).
Currently,after about three hours of the final pulse phase, there is
only 2 batteries that does not go over 15.6 volts, but they are right
at 15.5 to 15.6. And still, using the dummy load test, the lower
batteries do not have the lowest capacity.
Thanks,
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 9:13 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> Our NmG: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/983 has Optima Blue tops and
a
> Zivan charger with the V10 chip. The finish phase is a 2.5 amp pulse
> for 6 hours or until the batteries reach 120 degrees Fahrenheit. Each
> day it receives the full charging cycle twice. Once after driving to
> work and once every night. Errands are often run where the finish
phase
> does not complete, but it always finishes at least twice daily.
So the Zivan charger runs the finish phase every cycle, no matter what
the prior depth of discharge was? I wonder how Zivan determined that
the 2.5 amp pulses for 6 hours was suitable instead of the specified
2 amps for an hour?
Does the Zivan have temperature sensors for each battery? If not,
some batteries were likely getting hotter, and were likely cooking.
The NmG/Sparrow has some batteries that get hotter than the others,
right? Perhaps these batteries were among those that died?
What does the full Zivan charge profile look like?
> Shortly after getting the car, I started monitoring the charging
> voltages of each battery. I noticed that during the final phase, some
> batteries would not get over 14.8 volts and some were over 16. I
> noticed in the Optima data sheet that 15.6 volts is the maximum
> voltage.
Note that the 15.6v limit is for "Rapid Recharge" applications, i.e.
high-current opportunity charging. The spec for "Cyclic Applications"
doesn't have a voltage limit.
Ralph
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 09:01:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Electric motorcycle at Salt Flats BUB meet?
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
A friend of mine was just at the BUB all-motorcycle Salt Flats event, and said
he saw a "sparky" electric motorcycle from the Bay Area. He said the driver was
familiar with the Kostov motor I'm using in my conversion.
Anybody know who this is? More details would be appreciated. Please speak up if
you are on this list! How fast did he (or she) go?
____________________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 09:31:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric motorcycle at Salt Flats BUB meet?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
What is a "sparky" ???
--- David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A friend of mine was just at the BUB all-motorcycle
> Salt Flats event, and said he saw a "sparky"
> electric motorcycle from the Bay Area. He said the
> driver was familiar with the Kostov motor I'm using
> in my conversion.
>
> Anybody know who this is? More details would be
> appreciated. Please speak up if you are on this
> list! How fast did he (or she) go?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Park yourself in front of a world of choices in
> alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green
> Center.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
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------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:51:24 EDT
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric-car driver sets sights on 136 mph
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
In a message dated 9/10/2007 8:43:03 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> EVDL] Electric-car driver sets sights on 136 mph
> Date:9/10/2007 8:43:03 AM US Mountain Standard Time
> From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-to:ev@lists.sjsu.edu
> To:ev@lists.sjsu.edu
> Received from Internet:
>
>
>
> He is using a Zilla controller. You can see a picture of the controller and
> motor here: <http://www.explodingdinosaurs.com/race2thefuture18Aug2007/> .
>
> I'm planning to go to the Salt Flats Wednesday to watch them run, I'll see
> if they'll tell me what the secret batteries are, the motor and its timing,
> and what the controller current limit is.
>
> Just for fun and bragging rights, does anyone want to guess what speed
> they'll run? I'll tender my guess later.
>
Yes the timing is advanced in this motor.It also has a couple other mods in
it.D.Berube
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 13:03:00 -0400
From: "Al" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV attitudes
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=original
Very well done Dave
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 10:20:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric-car driver sets sights on 136 mph
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
AS to a guess as to how fast...140 or very close to
it.
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> In a message dated 9/10/2007 8:43:03 AM US Mountain
> Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> > EVDL] Electric-car driver sets sights on 136 mph
> > Date:9/10/2007 8:43:03 AM US Mountain Standard
> Time
> > From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Reply-to:ev@lists.sjsu.edu
> > To:ev@lists.sjsu.edu
> > Received from Internet:
> >
> >
> >
> > He is using a Zilla controller. You can see a
> picture of the controller and
> > motor here:
>
<http://www.explodingdinosaurs.com/race2thefuture18Aug2007/>
> .
> >
> > I'm planning to go to the Salt Flats Wednesday to
> watch them run, I'll see
> > if they'll tell me what the secret batteries are,
> the motor and its timing,
> > and what the controller current limit is.
> >
> > Just for fun and bragging rights, does anyone want
> to guess what speed
> > they'll run? I'll tender my guess later.
> >
> Yes the timing is advanced in this motor.It also has
> a couple other mods in
> it.D.Berube
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
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------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 13:06:37 -0500
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Controller cheap?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Morgan LaMoore wrote:
>> Those are IGBTs; they don't go in parallel very well...
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> the zilla seems to contradict that.
No, it confirms it. The Zilla works with IGBTs in parallel because of
the extraordinary lengths the designer went thru to *make* them share
power equally.
> the reason for the water cooling is so they have a large overcapacity
> to perhaps compensate for problems in load sharing
I would suggest that it is needed because the high-power parts are
packed so tightly (to minimize resistance and inductance) that it would
be very difficult to extract the heat with air cooling.
>> Those caps aren't nearly good enough.
> Lee Hart used that series as an upgrade of a Curtis.
Yes; I was upgrading it from "poor" capacitors to "fair" capacitors.
This is about the best you can do and still fit them into the existing
board.
> The caps in a Curtis have nowhere near half the ripple current of
> the controllers peak.
Yes; but it's a cheap design.
> nor does the zilla seem to.
But it's at least 2-3 times better.
> water cooling is nothing but a alu bar with a groove and a lid and
> plugs at each end. air is not enough in my idea because I rely on
> the greater power margin I get with a cool chip.
Ultimately, you have to dump all the heat into the air anyway. A water
cooled controller leaves out the pump, radiator, and hoses; and is
easier for the controller maker to build. But the customer has to buy
and install all this extra "stuff". When you add the cost, size, and
weight of these parts back in, the two systems don't differ much at all.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:58:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Ken,
In an earlier message you mentioned that the Zivan pulses the batteries
for six hours or until the batteries reach 120 degrees F. I'm curious
where the temperature sensor is located, and how many sensors there are.
If there's one sensor that is used as a proxy for all of the batteries,
then it's very likely that some batteries are getting quite hot and are
going unnoticed because the sensor is on a cooler battery. If this is
the case, these batteries probably got cooked (not from going over 16v,
but from getting too hot).
Putting your regs on the batteries probably helps keep them from getting
too hot.
Ralph
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> Yes, I did notice that after this thread started, however, what
> actually happened supported my initial interpretation that 15.6 volts
> was the limit. Additionally, after this thread started, I removed the
> regs. The car has been driven and charged as before and the capacity
> has not changed. I say capacity, I am really referring to the no load
> voltage after reaching routine destinations and the voltage sag at
> specific amps during the trip. It's only been a week (a little over 100
> miles) so that is probably not conclusive.
>
> My confusion, is that the batteries that went over 16 volts were the
> ones that died. Since putting the 15.6 volt regs on, the pack has
> remained stable. the regs have only been on for about 4 months, or
> about 1600 miles. Perhaps that is not enough time?
>
> I really would like to know more about this since my experience seems
> to conflict with what I read.
>
> Could the difference be the charge time? instead of 2 amps for 1 hour,
> it is getting 1 amp pulse for 6 hours (if over 15.6 volts) or 2.5 amps
> pulse (if under 15.6 volts).
>
> Currently,after about three hours of the final pulse phase, there is
> only 2 batteries that does not go over 15.6 volts, but they are right
> at 15.5 to 15.6. And still, using the dummy load test, the lower
> batteries do not have the lowest capacity.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ken
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
> Sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 9:13 am
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack
>
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >
> > Our NmG: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/983 has Optima Blue tops and
> a
> > Zivan charger with the V10 chip. The finish phase is a 2.5 amp pulse
> > for 6 hours or until the batteries reach 120 degrees Fahrenheit. Each
> > day it receives the full charging cycle twice. Once after driving to
> > work and once every night. Errands are often run where the finish
> phase
> > does not complete, but it always finishes at least twice daily.
>
> So the Zivan charger runs the finish phase every cycle, no matter what
> the prior depth of discharge was? I wonder how Zivan determined that
> the 2.5 amp pulses for 6 hours was suitable instead of the specified
> 2 amps for an hour?
>
> Does the Zivan have temperature sensors for each battery? If not,
> some batteries were likely getting hotter, and were likely cooking.
> The NmG/Sparrow has some batteries that get hotter than the others,
> right? Perhaps these batteries were among those that died?
>
> What does the full Zivan charge profile look like?
>
>
> > Shortly after getting the car, I started monitoring the charging
> > voltages of each battery. I noticed that during the final phase, some
> > batteries would not get over 14.8 volts and some were over 16. I
> > noticed in the Optima data sheet that 15.6 volts is the maximum
> > voltage.
>
> Note that the 15.6v limit is for "Rapid Recharge" applications, i.e.
> high-current opportunity charging. The spec for "Cyclic Applications"
> doesn't have a voltage limit.
>
> Ralph
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
> http://mail.aol.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
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End of EV Digest, Vol 2, Issue 28
*********************************
