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Today's Topics:
1. Re: What makes a great inventor, start with new ideas (Tommey
Reed) (Andrew Kane)
2. Re: New way to power your car (Tommey Reed) (Danny Miller)
3. Re: electric pickel (storm connors)
4. Re: US Electricar Prism Battery Situation (Loni)
5. Re: New way to power your car (Tommey Reed) (Danny Miller)
6. Re: too many amps? Easy enough for a caveman to..... (lyle sloan)
7. New way to power your car (Tommey Reed) (Jeff Shanab)
8. Re: magnetic shaft coupling?More Comments. (storm connors)
9. Re: Electric Powered Boat (jerryd)
10. Re: Tesla and Hyatt (storm connors)
11. ForkenSwift on YouTube; net build cost
(Darin at- forkenswift.com)
12. Re: Tesla and Hyatt (Bill Dennis)
13. Re: AVCON INLET NEEDED (Matthew Trevaskis)
14. Re: Tesla and Hyatt (Bill Dennis)
15. Re: US Electricar Prism Battery Situation (Lee Hart)
16. Re: syncing an AC and DC motor (Lee Hart)
17. Re: syncing an AC and DC motor (Lee Hart)
18. Re: Tesla and Hyatt (Bill Dennis)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 22:11:50 -0700
From: "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What makes a great inventor, start with new ideas
(Tommey Reed)
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I would agree with you except that I recall that Edison, Tesla,
Charles Babbage, and R. Buckminster Fuller, and George Westinghouse
were all shameless self-promoters. Of course, each of them actually
had something verifiable to show and tell about.
In my opinion, each of the above qualifies as a "great
inventor", and I think that there are too many of them to be the
'exception that proves the rule'.
With that said, I concede that there are many great inventors
who are relatively modest and even self-effacing, like Stanford
Ovshinsky, Lee Faraday, Arno Penzias, and Alan Turing. Also I
wholeheartedly endorse your second point.
On 10/26/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It occures to me that really great inventors don't have to tell you they
> are great.
>
> If someone feels that they have to tell you that they are great (or famous
> or good looking, etc.) then they probably aren't.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 20:33:28 -0500
From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New way to power your car (Tommey Reed)
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Electric Vehicle Discussion List
<ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Well Ford is supposed to make a "hydraulic hybrid" F150 which is
actually compressed air storage. It doesn't compress the air with a
compressor though, it has a highly pressurized tank which never gains or
loses air. Instead they add hydraulic fluid and take it out (under
thousands of PSI) to a hydraulic motor and to a low pressure reservoir.
It is limited by the volume of hydraulic fluid capacity in both the tank
and catch reservoir. Like most hybrids, the point is not primary
storage but to allow a high efficiency engine with poor impulse or poor
low-end power to be driveable.
Danny
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>I can't tell, are you joking or serious?
>
>If you're joking....good one!!
>
>If you're serious, have you bothered to check into how incredibly
>inefficient it is to compress air?
>
>Adding the system you describe would indeed make a drastic change in an
>EV. It would probably cut it's range in 1/2, if not more.
>
>Personallym I can think of dozens of cheaper and much simpler ways to
>reduce an EV's range.
>
>
>
>>One thing is clear you can't use a ac/dc motor to run your car for a long
>>time, because many factor are add to the power output on your batteries
>>system.
>>What can be done is design a air car with a ac/dc compressor on board for
>>charging, this will change the electric car completely!
>>Using my patent design engine that can runs on air would be one great goal
>>for the electric car
>>This new design will help the EV world, by having a system in place in a
>>control loop like a air conditioner unit.
>>With a high and low pressure that will store energy from the ac compressor
>>to the tank and control the pressure going in to the Rotary engine, this
>>would force the piston 350 degree to the exhaust port where the vacuum low
>>side pulls it out for next firing cycle.
>>This would have a high side of 400 psi and a low side, like a basic ac
>>cooling system.
>>If you have a 13" rotary motor that has a 1x1 inch piston at 400 psi? and
>>a 1" crank and at?3600 rpms.
>>1x(13/2)-1 x 400/12=200 foot pounds of torque at TDC
>>at 3600 rpms = (200x3600)/5252= 137.09 hp
>>
>>The ac/dc motor is turning the compressor untill charging is done, at?high
>>psi the?system?will turn off and at? low psi it runs at full power to
>>recharge.
>>This will always have the same output of power load,?there is no different
>>of how you drive, if?it is up hill or down.
>>Down hill could be use for a Jake Brake system for recharging air tank,
>>when the brake is?on the drive shaft is turning the compressor for
>>recharge.
>>This system could really be how to use the ev to run your next car.
>>The rotary compressor is great for this job, running from a?ac/dc motor
>>will be like having a compressor at home.
>>When? air tool?is use the compressor kicks in to recharge?your tank and
>>then shut down.
>>This is a better way to run your next EV................
>>Tom
>>
>>
>>?
>>________________________________________________________________________
>>Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- Unlimited storage and
>>industry-leading spam and email virus protection.
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>>
>>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 01:32:11 -0400
From: "storm connors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] electric pickel
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Used to cook hot dogs in the dorm room this way. They would just start to
sweat, not glow. Not suggesting anyone try this as I an sure it is not
approved in the NEC. ;-)
On 10/26/07, David Nelson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> When I saw the subject of this email I thought it might be similar to
> a demo my former colleague used to do. Take a large pickle and put two
> electrodes in it, one on each end. He used two bright steel nails. and
> hook each end to a 110v wall socket with a lamp cord. It lights up
> nicely for a few seconds. We often would use this as one of the demos
> in our traveling math and science show.
>
> On 10/26/07, wayne alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi, one of the EVs I did for discovery channel is done and in Washington
> DC, fastest one I did, even supprised me and it was only to be a street
> leagal EV for shows and a teaching aide. did 0-60 in 5 seconds and hit 90 in
> 35 seconds, still working on the other ones, almost done with one, the Green
> V.W thing is at the color is "linda blair green" LOLOLOL
> www.treehugger.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>
> --
> David D. Nelson
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1328
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 01:14:40 -0700
From: "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] US Electricar Prism Battery Situation
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
I'm planning to build zener-regs for the pack this weekend. I'm too far
behind the learning curve to build anything as complex as your BBS (though I
hope to in time). On the other hand, if any of you BBS/BMS-building gurus
want to visit Portland and walk me through implementation, my house is your
house! I mean it. Pleeeeeease.....
I don't believe the pack has received a full charge for over a month, and
was driven after that charge to boot. So my plan has been to charge each
battery, perform discharge tests, see if the pack is hammered, and if not,
replace the worst offenders, install zener-regs, and attempt to maintain a
stable and reasonably healthy pack for a year. By then we'll have power from
Orbo and the Eternal Mother-Goddess of the Quantum Vacuum, right?
Riiiiiiiight... ;^)
Actually, I'd love to get my hands on an entirely different battery
chemistry by then, or at least Fireflies.
Lon Hull,
Portland, OR
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] US Electricar Prism Battery Situation
> Loni Hull wrote:
>> US Electricar... unable to get my pack charged via the onboard
>> system. I have 50 Hawker PC925s... I found a few corroded connections
>> (one severely) and cleaned them with baking soda and water, a brush
>> and a wet-dry vac
>
> I'd say that battery has a leaking seal. Acid from inside the battery is
> getting out and onto the external connection. It will keep coming back
> until you replace that battery. If you keep using it, you need to coat
> the exposed copper with something to protect it from the acid. Try
> coating the terminal with solder or lead, or coat it with grease.
>
>> after sitting for 2 weeks uncharged... I read the following voltages
>> by series and sequence...
>
> Ouch! These are pretty bad! If the pack was fully charged 2 weeks ago,
> you should have seen voltages somewhere in the 12.6-13.0v range, with
> perhaps a 0.1v difference between highest and lowest.
>
>> several of the weak batteries are those to which a cable (rather than
>> buss bar) is attached. Is there a certain logic to that?
>
> I think that is a coincidence.
>
>> Of course I'm concerned about batteries #22, 32, 18, 36, and several
>> others in the 10v range. I imagine #s 22, 32, and 18 at least are
>> write-offs.
>
> Probably true. The only way to know for sure will be individual testing.
> They are certainly very dead now. If they have only sat for 2 weeks that
> way, there is some chance of recovery. But if they never did get fully
> charged 2 weeks ago, and have been this dead for a long time, there is
> little hope of recovering anything close to normal performance.
>
> US Electricar tended to use very long strings of AGMs with no monitoring
> or balancing at all. This quickly led to major differences in state of
> charge between batteries. The ones with less charge go dead early: The
> driver has no indication of this, and so "just keeps driving" -- and
> these batteries are murdered. While charging, the batteries with more
> charge get full early: Again, the charger has no indication of this, and
> so "just keeps charging" -- and these batteries are murdered.
>
> The result is that US Electricar packs don't last long. When you open a
> pack like yours, you find significant difference between batteries. Some
> still good (by luck), some destroyed from overcharging, and some
> destroyed from excessively deep discharges.
>
> I went through a pack of 40 Hawker G12V38Ah10C batteries from a US
> Electricar pickup EV:
>
> - 13 were good (had about 80% of their original capacity).
> - 20 had died from overcharging (lost water as evidenced by lost
> weight, and had excessive resistance due to grid corrosion by
> the excessively strong electrolyte).
> - 7 had bad cells (from overly deep discharges and reversed cells).
>
>> Is it likely that I can make any of them serviceable with
>> individual charging?
>
> Yes (see above). Some will have survived. But you won't want to keep
> some old ones in the pack and just replace others; you'd be starting out
> with a large imbalance between batteries, and they will die even sooner.
>
> Use the batteries that survive for some other use; a UPS power supply,
> or lower-voltage EV, or something. I used the survivors from the above
> pack for our BEST kid's EVs (see www.bestoutreach.com).
>
> If you don't correct this design problem, it will recur again to murder
> your new pack. You need to add some type of battery management system
> that a) monitors each battery, so you and your charger KNOW when a
> battery hits "empty" or "full"; and b) does something about the
> condition before it murders batteries. Such a system could be as simple
> as the zener-lamp regulators I've described before, or a full-blown BMS
> like my Battery Balancer system.
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 17:01:14 -0500
From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New way to power your car (Tommey Reed)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Awhile back I tried to do some calculations on the available energy.
Well, a 12L scuba tank stores about 1/3rd a kwh. Recovering that is
difficult, we are dealing with a very wide range of pressures and a
central problem is air cools as it expands which lowers the pressure.
It is difficult to raise the temp of air as it's being used. Likewise,
it warms while compressed and assumes a higher pressure, the compresser
does all the work involved in getting air up to this high pressure state
only to see it cool down and contract so the tank is no longer full.
It is clear far larger volumes than a scuba tank would be needed. This
would require a remarkable pressure vessel.
It's also quite dangerous. There are a number of stories where a scuba
tank burst from a long stress crack, it'll destroy a small structure
like a garage. About like a grenade really. So man the idea of
something tens of times bigger's kinda scary.
Much like EVs, the storage capacity is limited and the potential
capacity is unclear (depends heavily on vehicle design), but the cycle
efficiency is not competitive with EVs. Then again, a tank won't wear
out like a batt, although that's debatable, aluminum does stress
fracture, maybe carbon-fiber tanks won't be subject to wear though.
Danny
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>
>>One thing is clear you can't use a ac/dc motor to run your car for a long
>>time,
>>What can be done is design a air car with a ac/dc compressor on board for
>>charging, this will change the electric car completely!
>>
>>
>>
>unless you can suspend conservation of energy you only add great loss
>and complexity by such a design. it is obviously more effective and
>elegant to drive on the mechanical energy of the electric motor directly
>than indirectly by way of air compressor and air piston motor. so much
>so that I'm more than a little surprised that anyone would suggest such
>a thing. try to think in terms of efficiency and energy loss. each step
>in the chain is a loss and compressor/air piston is a great loss
>
>electric alone might be 5 times more efficient than what you suggest
>
>Dan
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 02:18:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] too many amps? Easy enough for a caveman to.....
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Hello Listers,
This instance brings up a good example how builders
fail to 'see' where their conversions perform at their
best or within the limits of their current batteries,
motor, weight, gearing, etc. - setups. The evcalc and
others that are out there do a pretty decent job of
predicting the performances, but the builders/drivers
arent identifying why something aint working like they
think it should. I think it is because the numbers
start confusing them from info overload. To
counteract this problem I had been working on a simple
graph to illustrate performance ranges as part of a
tutorial (and eventual graph&calc program) At
electricmotorcycles.net .
This graph is intended to show the limits in max
amps/torque/gearing to max voltage/rpm/speed of a DC
setup.
Simplistically, the max 'deliverable' amperage of the
circuit is determined by the lowest max value of the
four elements of all electric vehicles - the
batteries, the controller, the motor, and all wiring.
Combine this with the [EMAIL PROTECTED] (or going further
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and HP), this range becomes the Y-axis.
Then using the max voltage, as determined by the
lowest max value of the batteries, motor, or
controller, draw the max rpm that the motor can travel
at the rated voltage. Combine this with the gearing
to wheel to speed, this range becomes the X-axis.
http://electricmotorcycles.net/uploads/wordpress/2007/09/4-to-1-gear-ratio-to-torque-to-mph.JPG
This allows the builder/driver to use which ever
evcalc or formulae that she-he-it sees fit to plot
performance for maintaining speed per the setup. OR
(Sorry to use you as an example Michael), the right
gear and speed for the gradient(hill). (Acceleration
is a different graph)
http://electricmotorcycles.net/uploads/wordpress/2007/09/gear-ratio-to-torque-to-mph.JPG
I propose that this graph be used in the future (to
anyone that wants to) for illustrating and explaining
purposes because it is relatively simple and
versatile. i.e. rotating mass can be added into the
evcalc. (I even tried to add heat ranges of the Etek
to ascertain why some were burning up. As well as
predicting CVT performance range limits)
Lyle Sloan
--- Michael Mohlere wrote:
> Paul -
>
> Took your advice and tackled "the hill" with the
> truck in 2nd gear
> going 35 mph the whole way up....no problem. Thanks
> for the advice!
> I received the fuses from mouser in the mail today,
> so will be putting
> the truck back into its original configuration this
> weekend - should
> eliminate the 220 volt charging issue.
>
> Mike
>
> On 10/23/07, Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I'm going to take a guess that the motor rpm was a
> bit low. Lower
> > rpms are great for acceleration (and torque in
> general) but the motor
> > amps will be quite a bit higher than the battery
> amps. The DCP
> > controllers can cut back for either excess battery
> amps (MOSFETs
> > getting hot) or excess motor amps (freewheel
> diodes getting hot.) Its
> > around 3500 rpm that the controller can go full on
> (freewheel diodes
> > not being used, battery amps equal motor amps)
> with your foot to the
> > floor. If your foot is not on the floor the motor
> amps are higher
> > than the battery amps. The DCP 450 can dish out up
> to 625 motor amps,
> > but not for long.
> >
> > You should verify the fan is running full tilt
> before the current
> > starts being reduced. Its supposed to be the first
> line of heat
> > control and current restrictions are the backup
> plan.
> >
> > The DCP 600 should have higher continuous current
> limits. On the
> > other hand, flooded golf cart batteries shouldn't
> really hang out at
> > 250 amps for extended periods of time anyway.
> >
> > Paul Gooch
> >
> > On Oct 22, 2007, at 3:08 AM, Michael Mohlere
> wrote:
> >
> > > My 1981 rabbit pickup (see sig) has a DCP 450
> (Raptor) Controller. I
> > > couldn't resist the urge to conquer a fairly
> major hill....according
> > > to the emeter it was pulling between 200-250
> amps all the way up. I
> > > could tell that the 450 started limiting the
> amps (going into creep
> > > mode) on the way up. My questions is this:
> would upgrading to a 600
> > > allow me to pull more amps longer, or am I
> stressing the system way
> > > too much already by pulling that many amps
> continuously....I'm sure I
> > > will get some slap on the wrist responses, but I
> guess that is how we
> > > learn...
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>
> --
> Michael Mohlere
> My EV: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/296.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 06:33:15 -0700
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] New way to power your car (Tommey Reed)
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Your posts are very painful to read. I assume English is not your first
language.
In your last post it seemed like you were advocating a series setup
where an electric motor ran a compressor which then ran an air motor.
Most of us see such a thing as ludicrous because every conversion costs.
Compressing air is one of the lowest efficiency tasks out there. The
best I have seen with mechanical compression is 23% eff.
so lets do the real math.
Assumptions:
lets use 80% eff for getting power out of the battery, even assuming a
lead acid battery with pukert effects this is probably low.
lets use 95% eff for the controller. We know this is pretty accurate by
looking at the amount of heat generated vs the power going in.
lets use 90% eff for the electric motors conversion to mechanical energy.
lets use 25% eff for the air compressor. Without cryogenics, this is
about the best you can do mechanically.
lets use 25% eff for the expansion motor. Again, we are using air and
you will see drastic temperature changes which indicate
lets assume the expansion motor can be used as a compressor for
regenerative braking.
typical EV
battery->controller->motor
.8 * .95 * .9 = 68% eff ; I would say this is conservatively low, even
for a home brew DC conversion(only saying that we use whats avil in DC
conversions, not that dc is inherantly less eff than AC systems) If we
use advanced batteries and desinged for EV AC systems in a designed for
EV vehicle, I see no obstacles to achieving .95*.95*.95 or about 85% eff.
Your suggestion
Lets assume that running at a constant rpm doubles the eff. (1/2s the
losses)
battery->controller->motor->compressor->expansion motor
.9 * .975 * .95 * . 25 *
.25 = 5% eff The compressors kill us.
Even if we say you have managed to come close to an electric motor and
get 90% eff on the motor and run the batteries direct to the motor
battery->controller->motor->compressor->expansion motor
.9 * 1 * .95 * . 25 * 1
= 21% eff The compressors still kills us.
This is dangerously veering off topic, So I would like to end this
conversation on line. If you have any real method of mechanically
compressing a gas at over 25% eff, Id like to hear about it off list.
Ignoring the fact that it would solve one of the fool cell advocates
problems, it could make us a mint revolutionizing the industrial air
compress market.
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 09:35:46 -0400
From: "storm connors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] magnetic shaft coupling?More Comments.
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I didn't forget Bob Aronson, I never knew him. Was his setup for personal
use? Perhaps you could supply a bit more info for us history buffs?
storm
On 10/25/07, Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Looks like you guys are looking at a electronic version of the olde
> Buick, Dyna Flow as fitted to the "Roadmonsters", of 40-50 years ago?All
> this fa-da-rah, ya may as well go with a sorta perfected Automatic Tranny,
> and be done with it? The SLIP thing we can do without in EV's, we have
> current multliplication in our solid state controllers,DC Transformer, if
> you will. Never used over 20 amp @ 120 volts to MOVE A BUILDING! I moved
> my
> 3 car garage, using the Jetta and a herd of PVC rollers to shift it over
> 25'
> to make room to pour a new floor. Operating like a land based tugboat
> docking the Titanic; A tug here, nudge there. You folks that have scene my
> green (Red Sox Green) garage?Same color as Fenway Park. Sox doing good
> this
> year. Anyhow, EV's, with their electric Locomotive heritage, are fantastic
> PULLERS, and Rapture smooth! Used to pull small stumps with my Rabbit!
> Moving buildings? Great tool!
>
> But still love my direct drive and the wonder of PWM or what EVer the
> Rapters are? To just be wafted, effortlessly away. In some ways we have
> improved over the Bakers, Detroits, Hupp- Yeats, Milburns, etc of a
> forgotten era of motordom. But ya have to admit the oldies had a certain
> charm EVen a Tesla can't match?
>
> All this blather about a Tesla having a Ony 200 mile range? Sheeesh!
> IF
> it would run FOREVER, around the world at the Equator, on one charge, IF
> there was a road? STILL somebody would pitch a bitch as it didn't do
> SOMETHING just right? Not enough Cupholders? No Cassette player? No
> trailer
> towing package<g>? And it won't charge in FIVE minutes? They keep raising
> the bar.I would be happy with my Jetta's range and performance IF there
> were
> 400 amp possable Charge Stations about EVery 50 miles along the
> Interstates,
> and major towns. Sorta like long Forgotten Bob Aronson's set up between
> Detoilet and Chicago, I-94 , 300 miles worth ,wired for charging, at 240
> volt 3 faze service drops. We used an Amtrak like plug, the kind you see
> on
> ALL modern passenger trains, to pass power from car to car.Small enough
> for
> a normal guy or gal to plug an' unplug, BIG enough to handle 500 amps!His
> charger could do 250 amps on the level, and 300 down hill , IF ya Pushed
> and babysat it! I TRIED to find the setups behind the Holiday Inns, a few
> years ago, but EVerything has changed since then(1969-72) DUH! or so.
> Think
> of what Rich Rudman could build ,Charger wise, if the charge stations
> offered 240 volts 3 faze at 100-200 AMPS? A PFC-200-300 ??? YEEAAH! Hafta
> build a few Nukes to supply it?
>
> Just a few thoughts this mourning
>
> Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Al" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 12:32 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] magnetic shaft coupling?
>
>
> > Got a theoretical question for the engineers out there to shoot down ;)
> >
> > Would it be possible to create a magnetically coupled torque converter
> > using
> > permanent and or electromagnets?
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 08:51:44 -0500
From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric Powered Boat
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Rick and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Rick Willoughby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
subject: [EVDL] Electric Powered Boat
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:36:56 -0700 (PDT)
>I am seeking advice and experience on equipping an electric
>boat. I have attached an image.
>http://www.nabble.com/file/p13418241/1t_Solar.jpg
Interesting boat design you have. Your EV numbers
also are in the ballpark. The reservations I have are more
seakeeping, tax problems than with the charging or EV drive.
As a a boat designer, builder of all types I'd
suggest you go to a Cat as your present version will
probably roll very badly in any seaway whether underway or
anchored.
As for taxes most boats are taxed by length, both
by governments and by marinas, boatyards, ect. 26' or it's
equivilent in meters is a good place to be just under though
everything you want can be done in 20'. Other choices are
trimarrans or an outrigger.
>
>The preliminary specification - Length is 14.7m, overall
>beam is 1.6m, WL beam 1.14m and displacement 1t.
Rather narrow at that waterline at that length. Over
10=1 beam to length ratio the surface friction goes up too
much vs wave making drag causing higher power level demands.
A 14.7m boat would need at least a 1.5m waterline beam, WLB
for lowest drag.
>
>It has a 1.2kW wind turbine and 5 X 200W solar panels.
>There is 9600Wh of battery storage,
These are peak readings though you have a lot of
wind down there. be lucky if you get 1/2 that.
Or course the best wind energy generator is a sail
so one should have at least a small rig which in heavier
winds could charge your batts from boat speed through your e
motor set in regen.
>
>I am planning on a 48V system that will give peak output of
>4.74kW. This will give maximum speed of 12.4kts.
Probably a little higher power needed than that.
Daytime
>cruising using storage, wind and solar should be at 10kts
>requiring 2.3kW. Overnight cruising using wind and solar
>for running and charging through the day and batteries at
>night requires 1.15kW to do 8kts.
These rates probably need to be doubled due to skin
friction which is your dominate drag.
Also go for as large and slow prop as you can, about
3-.4 meter dia if possible for prop eff.
>
>There is enough accommodation for two people overnight and
>will be roomy enough for four during day cruises.
>
>It seems a practical concept. Will take about AUD25k to
>build it. The hull is in three pieces so this will make it
>easy to transport and reduces the area needed to build it
>in.
>
>I am seeking advice on solar panels, wind turbine,
>batteries, motor and controls. I would like to locate
>suppliers of good equipment and gain from others'
>experience on combining these energy systems for an
>electric vehicle.
Those are going to be local most likely. A good PM
motor if you can find one that high power along with a
Sevcon PM 4 quad controller will give you forward, reverse
along with charging under sail or anchored in a river or
tidal stream.
I'd go for more sail, windgen than solar as solar is
very expensive, only available 5 peak hrs/day at best vs
sails, windgen which will give you many times more range,
power at less cost.
So at least shorten it or better, switch to a
multihull to get better performance, safety and comfort at
less cost.
Good luck,
Jerry Dycus
>Rick Willoughby
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>--
>View this message in context:
>http://www.nabble.com/Electric-Powered-Boat-tf4694300s25542.html#a13418241
>Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
>archive at Nabble.com.
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 09:54:35 -0400
From: "storm connors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla and Hyatt
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
What kind of plug will they use?
storm
On 10/26/07, Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I just read this in Travel and Leisure Magazine. Forgive my reposting if
> it's already been mentioned on the EVDL.
>
> "In August, Tesla and Hyatt Hotels announced a partnership (Tesla
> investor Nicholas Pritzker, nephew of Hyatt's founder, bought one of the
> company's first cars). Hyatt plans to install chargers in its hotels
> that will take a car to full charge in 3? hours or to a half-charge in
> 1? hours. The company is basically saying, Come into Hyatt for lunch,
> plug in, and leave with a refilled "gas tank" that'll take you another
> 100 miles. Stay overnight, and you'll have a completely refilled battery."
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 07:51:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Darin at- forkenswift.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] ForkenSwift on YouTube; net build cost
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
For those following this project, a new YouTube video is up to mark the car's
transition to legal EV status:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBQWXyxSTyU
The vid has small amount of fun at GM's expense (which Impact/EV1 fans may
recognize), and then shows the car in action.
FYI: some beer budget accounting:
$672 - the net build cost, excluding taxes, registration & insurance (which
total nearly the same amount again!). I included inspection fees in the
build cost however.
$1811 - this was the total cash outlay.
$1139 - money recovered through: selling ICE parts (nothing was wasted - we
actually made a little profit over the cost of the 2 donor cars!); scrap
refunds (a few batteries; also the stripped forklift chassis netted a
healthy $364 from the recycler - and that included them picking it up); and
the sale of the forklift's traction motor.
Of course this doesn't include the donated stuff (e.g. used batteries), or
the year and a half of tinker time.
$2500 - $3000 - is roughly what I figure it would cost someone to replicate
this vehicle with new batteries, minus the blind luck scoring cheap parts &
the generosity we encountered along the way. That includes the donor
vehicle.
It goes without saying that the car isn't finished yet. Still lots of
detail work yet left to do, plus watching eBay for a 48-72v controller,
etc...
cheers-
Darin
http://forkenswift.com
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1146
--
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/ForkenSwift-on-YouTube--net-build-cost-tf4703333s25542.html#a13443873
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 08:57:16 -0600
From: Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla and Hyatt
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
storm connors wrote:
> What kind of plug will they use?
> storm
>
>
Looks like it will be the same charging stations that come with the
Tesla, that Tesla owners install in their garages.
>From
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/08/30/BUKERRNPR.DTL
"Tesla received a grant from the California Air Resources Board to
design a recharging station that could be used by multiple makers of
electric cars. Tesla is still devising ways to weatherproof the station,
but the basic model uses what looks like a beefed-up extension cord with
a circular plug. It attaches to the car on the rear post of the driver's
side. Tesla hopes to persuade other automakers to use the same system."
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 15:59:33 +0100
From: Matthew Trevaskis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AVCON INLET NEEDED
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Dear All,
Cor's "Avcon" connection is very much a hand-modified set-up: maybe not a
"one-off" but I haven't seen it anywhere else other than that particular
model for a V2G application, since the bi-directional three-phase transfer
is higher powered than anything that the Avcon/Mar?chal systems were
designed to handle! It is otherwise the standard European Mar?chal
connector but with what would be the earth pin replaced by the third
rectangular contact (and the earth where the neutral would be?)
The (standard) Euro version was given 4 AC connections for a 230V (220-240V)
single phase or 400V three-phase connection, matching the normal supplies
found in most of Europe. The other similar terminals (A,G,K,L) are for the
connector presence detection, signal ground, and 2 for serial comms
respectively (although PSA cars never used the L line, it is provided since
the protocol otherwise follows a similar standard as for OBD diagnostic
connections) The AC and signal terminals are rated at 20A. The earth
terminal is larger which I think is the same size as used for the
single-phase AC connections on the STANDARD US Avcon version for 32A
single-phase ONLY since three-phase is less commonly available. The two
large rectangular contacts are the DC "bus." The US and Euro versions are
similar but not incompatible!
In Europe an AC-only connector can be wired with neutral and three phases
and a vehicle will take just single-phase if that is all it can use.
Three-phase can give up to 14kW. [Note: Three-phase with neutral supplies
via a socket are hard to find in the UK compared to other parts of Europe.
Socketed three-phase (without neutral) anywhere is scarce, usually favouring
hard-wiring of pumps, vehicle lifts etc.]
The connector supplied with most vehicles has just Neutral, Phase, Earth, A
and G. A-G are linked to provide the "connector present" signal to the
vehicle as the start inhibit. Cables for use with the French public
charging points (that originally used a plug/socket compatible with the
domestic standard) incorporated an extra pilot core via a diode and resistor
connected to A/G in the Mar?chal handle and had an earthed braided screen.
Most other countries replaced this cable with standard H07-RNF neoprene
sheathed, rubber insulated cable [ed: screened cable should have been
adopted as standard IMHO]
When using the off-board rapid chargers, the vehicle basically controls the
off-board hardware much as if it were onboard. Real world chargers
reportedly take quite a while to start the charge process.
The Mar?chal inlet CAN (easily) be defeated by hand to expose the terminals:
I think that it is a failing of the vehicle designers that the DC terminals
are wired directly to the DC bus without using a contactor. The fact that
you can defeat it "without the use of a tool" is a basic "standards"
failing! The centrally locked flap is really not a sufficient "barrier."
But as Philippe says anyone who really wants to commit suicide with a
vehicle, even someone else's, will find a way!
Not all the PSA (Peugeot/Citroen) EVs did use the DC connections. There are
a few cars out there (maybe exclusively some Citroen Saxo models) that
don't, probably as part of a budget spec model, probably for fleet customers
where the vehicles would never be expected to use rapid charging. Not sure
if the inlets had the DC terminals or not, but the heavy single-core DC
cabling from the inlet to the Sagem electronics box across the top of the
battery case is omitted. Popping the bonnet to look for the cables is the
definitive way to tell if the car is rapid charge capable or not (but there
is also a "rapid charge capable" sticker on the inside of the inlet flap!)
The inlets and connectors are still available today (I can supply) in a
variety of configurations so the fewer terminals, the cheaper they are.
"Logically" the ECU that controls the off-board charge process is separate
but in practice was likely always "physically" part of the vehicle ECU, so a
vehicle without the rapid charge wiring could most likely be upgraded by
retrofitting the "full" inlet and wiring (the inlets were filled with
compound making piece-meal repair/upgrade difficult.
Matt
--
Matthew TREVASKIS
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
For electric vehicles, recharging installations and accessories
F?r elektrofahrzeuge, neuladeninstallationen und Zusatzger?te
eco-drive
PO Box 255
PENZANCE TR18 9AA
United Kingdom / Vereinigtes K?nigreich
Tel: +44 17 36 36 12 07
Fax*: +44 17 36 36 16 77
www.eco-drive.co.uk
*Fax modem will receive faxes electronically (without using paper) 8am-6pm
UK time (0900-1900 CET) Monday-Saturday
*Telefaxmodem empf?ngt Telefax elektronisch (ohne Papier zu verwenden)
0900-1900 CET Montag-Samstag
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 09:11:59 -0600
From: Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla and Hyatt
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
storm connors wrote:
> What kind of plug will they use?
> storm
>
>
>
Possible picture of Tesla Charging station:
http://www.teslatalk.com/gallery/20060821/tesla14-l.jpg
Bill Dennis
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 09:50:12 -0500
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] US Electricar Prism Battery Situation
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Loni wrote:
> my plan is been to charge each battery, perform discharge tests, see
> if the pack is hammered, and if not, replace the worst offenders,
> install zener-regs, and attempt to maintain a stable and reasonably
> healthy pack for a year.
The zener-lamp regs work well if the batteries are reasonably closely
balanced, so 1-2 amphours per day of correction is enough to keep them
balanced. In your situation, the batteries are likely to need more than
this.
> Actually, I'd love to get my hands on an entirely different battery
> chemistry by then, or at least Fireflies.
Don't we all! :-)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 10:22:54 -0500
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] syncing an AC and DC motor
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
R Patterson wrote:
> This might sound crazy, but is sorta in response to the "no cheap AC
> motor" thread, how hard would it be to sync an AC and a DC motors? I
> know, the immediate question is "why??". Well, doing so would add
> some desirable features to both systems
Since electric motors have been around over 100 years, and some of the
greatest engineering minds of the century have applied themselves to it,
it should come as no surprise that this has been done.
The Ward-Leonard system is a prime example that has been widely used. It
has three motors; an AC motor and a DC generator directly connected by
their shafts, and a third DC motor that drives the load. The
fixed-frequency fixed-voltage AC mains drives the AC motor directly. It
spins the DC generator, whose output is varied by its field winding.
This variable-voltage DC drives the third motor to drive the load.
Though it requires three motors, speed control only uses low-power
circuits and the system is very reliable and versatile.
Another common approach is to use a DC motor coupled to a wound-rotor AC
motor. Its stator windings are driven by the AC mains. Its rotor
windings are brought out by slip rings, rectified, and drive the DC
motor. In this way, slip power isn't burned up as heat in the rotor, but
instead gets converted to mechanical power by the DC motor. Again, the
goal is to get smooth stepless efficient speed control over a wide range
with a fixed-frequency fixed-voltage AC source.
I've used yet another old system. Use a wound-rotor AC alternator as a
motor. It is fairly easy to build a variable-frequency fixed-voltage
inverter; it's just a square-wave inverter with a variable frequency.
Use a small DC PWM to drive the rotor winding. Rather than halving the
AC voltage at half the frequency; you apply full voltage at half the
frequency, and double the field current. This has the added advantage
that field current adjust power factor; I deliberately over-excited the
field to get a leading power factor. This allowd the inverter to use
inexpensive SCRs, which automatically commutate off with a capacitive load.
Finally, there is the obvious approach -- use a small AC drive for
cruising power and regen, plus a large series motor and simple PWM or
contactor controller for rapid acceleration.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 10:25:50 -0500
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] syncing an AC and DC motor
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> as I mentioned before I think it's worth looking into getting the motors
> used in all the current hybrids. I think there is something like 5 SUV
> hybrid models in USA right now which should have fairly powerful AC
> motors that can't cost 15000$.
The existing hybrids have PM AC (a.k.a. brushless DC) motors of around
40 KW peak power capability. However, they are built very lightly with
poor cooling, for very low duty cycle operation. They could be use, but
you'd need to substantially improve their cooling systems.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 09:17:44 -0600
From: Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla and Hyatt
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
storm connors wrote:
> What kind of plug will they use?
>
>
For those with aging eyesight like mine, the text on the charging
station picture at http://www.teslatalk.com/gallery/20060821/tesla14-l.jpg
"READY", "GROUND FAULT", "SMOKE DETECTED", "CABLE STRAIN", and "CHARGING
FAULT". The label at the bottom of the unit says "ACE Charging Station"
with the number "154" below it. The knob has two positions, "ON" and "OFF".
So this looks to be a custom connector for Tesla vehicles, with special
data and sense wires in addition to the power leads.
Bill Dennis
------------------------------
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End of EV Digest, Vol 3, Issue 77
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