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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Zivans for charging Safts? (David Roden (Akron OH USA))
2. Re: Zivans for charging Safts? (Mark Dutko)
3. Re: Auto theft devices and EV's (Tim Clevenger)
4. Re: Another EV (Ranger) Grin! (storm connors)
5. Combining Functionality (Mark Hanson)
6. Re: KillaCycle at the NextFest, Sept 13th-16th (Bill Dube)
7. Re: Combining Functionality (Lee Hart)
8. Re: Is there an EV Magazine - YES (David Roden (Akron OH USA))
9. Re: Zivans for charging Safts? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
10. Re: New Optima Pack (Roger Stockton)
11. Re: Tesla batteries (Was: EV attitudes) (Roger Stockton)
12. Re: Tesla batteries (maybe good news via Valence batteries)
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
13. Re: Another EV (Ranger) Grin! (Dave Oliveria)
14. Re: Tesla batteries ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
15. Re: Tesla batteries (Roger Stockton)
16. Re: Bi-stable flip flop advice (Paul)
17. Re: KillaCycle at the NextFest, Sept 13th-16th (damon henry)
18. Re: Tesla batteries (Jack Murray)
19. Re: Auto theft devices and EV's (Tyler)
20. Re: Cheap Temperature Sensor (Peter VanDerWal)
21. Re: Auto theft devices and EV's (Peter VanDerWal)
22. Re: Auto theft devices and EV's (Tyler)
23. Re: Nedra ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
24. Re: Auto theft devices and EV's (Tyler)
25. Re: Combining Functionality (Peter VanDerWal)
26. Re: Auto theft devices and EV's (Peter VanDerWal)
27. Solectria Sunrise project ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
28. Re: Battery theory ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
29. Re: Is there an EV Magazine - YES (Doug Weathers)
30. Re: Hymotion & A123 ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
31. Rocket backpack (Was: Re: KillaCycle at the NextFest, Sept
13th-16th) (Doug Weathers)
32. Re: Battery theory (Morgan LaMoore)
33. LTC ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
34. Re: Tesla batteries (maybe good news via Valence batteries)
(Ryan Stotts)
35. Re: Battery theory (Roland Wiench)
36. Re: Bi-stable flip flop advice (Morgan LaMoore)
37. Re: Tesla batteries (Morgan LaMoore)
38. Re: Tesla batteries (maybe good news via Valence batteries)
(Morgan LaMoore)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:17:55 -0400
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zivans for charging Safts?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
If your Safts are still under warranty, Saft will most likely have to
approve any change in the charging regimen. Otherwise they're apt to void
the warranty.
The Brusa is a fairly well established option for these batteries, and I
expect you'd have no trouble getting Saft to sign off on it. I'm not so
sure about the Zivan. I know it claims to have a nicad profile, but I don't
think it implements the Saft algorthm.
If you're willing to ditch the warranty and take the risk, or if you don't
have a warranty anyway, then there are other (cheaper) avenues open.
David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 12:23:46 -0700
From: Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zivans for charging Safts?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
Assuming the warranty is not a factor, I want to use the most
appropriate charger for the battery- Just not sure what that is under
$4K
Mark
On Sep 11, 2007, at 12:17 PM, David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
> If your Safts are still under warranty, Saft will most likely have to
> approve any change in the charging regimen. Otherwise they're apt
> to void
> the warranty.
>
> The Brusa is a fairly well established option for these batteries,
> and I
> expect you'd have no trouble getting Saft to sign off on it. I'm
> not so
> sure about the Zivan. I know it claims to have a nicad profile,
> but I don't
> think it implements the Saft algorthm.
>
> If you're willing to ditch the warranty and take the risk, or if
> you don't
> have a warranty anyway, then there are other (cheaper) avenues open.
>
> David Roden
> EVDL Administrator
> http://www.evdl.org/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 12:28:51 -0700
From: "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Auto theft devices and EV's
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Is it actually a requirement? The page you linked says that they offer a
$40/year discount for using an immobilizer. That may or may not be worth
the trouble if that's all it is.
Also, it indicates that the immobilizer must be installed by an authorized
dealer. May want to check with them to see if they'd even touch an EV. As
far as immobilization, you can do a lot of things, such as have it send a
high or low signal to the throttle pot input, since many controllers won't
enable if the pot is out of range.
Tim
----
From: "Tyler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 6:58 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Auto theft devices and EV's
> Hello,
>
> I stumbled across EV's a few months ago, and am quite eager do my first
> conversion. Due to cost restraints, I am stuck in the "can I do it
> phase". It looks like the only hurdle I may have, is the requirement to
> install an immobilizer. As of Sept 2007, Manitoba Public Insurance has
> mandated the use of select immobilizers in vehicles deemed Most at Rick
> (95%
> theft rate, I think). My concern is how the immobilizer works, buy
> cutting
> power to the starter, ignition and fuel supply. So my question is, has
> anyone installed any type of anti theft device device in their EV, and
> what
> are the opinions on this?
>
> Here is the list of MPI approved Immobilizers,
> http://www.mpi.mb.ca/english/autotheft/TheftImmobilizers.html for more
> info.
>
> *Approved immobilizers *
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:32:07 -0400
From: "storm connors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Another EV (Ranger) Grin!
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Goes between the 144 supply and pin 9/10. What this does is to limit the
current going into the precharge to about 1/2 amp. (60watts/120volts) The
bulb will light up full when precharge takes place. If you have wired it as
per the manual, that will be when the pack is energized. Others put a
contactor on the negative lead that is closed when the key is turned on, or
a relay that turns on the power to 9/10 when the key is turned on. In either
of these approaches, the light wil light up every time you turn the key on.
When I talked to Peter Senkowski, he told me that this is the approach he
uses on his test bench. As I said before, there are several simple ways to
blow up the precharge. All of them involve trying to power something with
144v when the contactor is open. A slight error in heater installation will
do it. So will pressing the throttle with the contactor not closed.
Anyway, the light bulb is cheap insurance.
FWIW some power tools run nice on 144 vdc. Electric chain saw is handy.
Also, compact flourescents supposedly will work but I haven't tested that. I
had to take my motor to the shop. Bummer> :-(
On 9/11/07, Dave Oliveria <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Storm,
>
> I called Peter Senkowski to discuss returning the controller. He recalled
> my DCP being an older controller and did I jumper 9 & 10. I tried that and
> it works like a charm!
>
> You mentioned the light bulb in the circuit. Should it go between +144V
> and Pin 9/10 or between 9 and 10? And does the bulb glow in this
> configuration?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: storm connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 9:11:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Another EV (Ranger) Grin!
>
>
> Congratulations! Did you figure out the solution or did someone else note
> the missing jumper? The line to pins 9&10 is the one the light bulb is in.
> (Lest your 600 be transformed to a 1200 at outrageous cost) :-)
>
> On 9/10/07, Timothy Balcer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > On 9/10/07, Dave Oliveria <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Hi, all!
> > >
> > > Just a quick note to let you know that my Ranger just gave me the
> > biggest EV Grin! (Next is power brakes and steering, though!). I just
> > drove my ranger up and down the road to get the feel of it then back up
> the
> > driveway (pulls 200amps on the driveway incline!).
> > >
> > > The problem with the controller turns out to be the need for a
> > jumper. Pins 9 and 10 for the older DCP controllers needs to be
> jumpered
> > across to make it work.
> > >
> > > Anyway, she's mobile again after seven months living in the
> > garage! Dang it though, it's time for dinner then a meeting for my
> > daughter! Where do we find time for these projects!
> > >
> > > More later . . ..
> > >
> > > Dave
> >
> > Congratulations!!!!! I send you a virtual electric cigar ;)
> >
> > --T
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
> http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
> Storm
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:56:13 -0500
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Combining Functionality
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Hi Folk's
Generally combining functionality and not using a modular approach is
historically a bad idea. Look at the 1945 Philco-Ford TV's and RCA Victors
where they combined the radio, TV and phonograph with a common power supply.
The result was each "component" had a 4X MTBF (since they shared a lot of
components that got used when you were using any part of the system).
We went through the same hysterical (I mean historical :-) exercise at GE-Ev
for marketing porposes (it does initially sell things) combining a DC-Dc
converter with a battery charger and then combining the charger with the
motor speed control. Due to the poor reliability of combining things, they
were seperated out later conventionally. Combining things works for
marketeers but not in reality, generally headed for a fall when you do. See
my EV charger patent 6,218,812 www.uspto.gov
BTW I saw one of those yellow ribbons today on a big SUV that instead of
saying "Support the Troops" was "Support My Gastank". Now there's someone
who's honest.
Have a renewable energy day,
Mark in Roanoke, VA
_________________________________________________________________
Test your celebrity IQ. Play Red Carpet Reveal and earn great prizes!
http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=redcarpet_hotmailtextlink2
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:02:35 -0600
From: Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] KillaCycle at the NextFest, Sept 13th-16th
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Thursday the 13th is completely nuts with the press. They have us
booked solid so there is no hope to talk even if you were to sneak in
somehow. Friday is nearly as bad (good?) I'll be there Saturday
morning. That would be the best time to drop by to chat for a moment
with me. I have the feeling that the show will be very popular.
I should note that Rebecca will be there for the whole show. She is a
LOT more fun to talk to than I am. :-)
http://www.killacycle.com/photos/teamphotos/RB6a.JPG
On Thursday, outside somewhere, they are going to have me
slowly run the bike just a bit (if we can figure a safe way to do
that.) What is even better, however, is that they are going to do a
live demo of the famous Bell rocket back-pack! I've always wanted to
see one of these. Way kewl. 8-)
Bill Dube'
At 11:36 AM 9/11/2007, you wrote:
>Bill those days 13th &14th are limited to school kids.
> what times are you going to be there and can you get
>me in I am a little old to pass for a student but I am
>a teacher.
>thanks
>kEVS
>--- Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > The KillaCycle will be on display at the Wired
> > NextFest in the Los
> > Angeles Convention Center Sept 13th through the
> > 16th.
> >
> > Rebecca (Road Princess) Bowering will be there with
> > the KillaCycle
> > for the whole show. I will only be able to be there
> > for the 13th and 14th.
> >
> > http://www.wirednextfest.com/
> >
> > See you there!
> >
> > Bill Dube'
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>
>
>
>____________________________________________________________________________________
>Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos.
>http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:36:10 -0500
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Combining Functionality
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Mark Hanson wrote:
> combining functionality and not using a modular approach is a bad idea.
> We went through the same hysterical (I mean historical :-) exercise at
> GE-EV... Due to the poor reliability of combining things, they were
> separated out later conventionally.
I agree. It only works when the functions being combined are very
closely related and share many parts.
A controller and a DC/DC have almost nothing in common. You won't save
any money or parts by combining them. It's more likely that you will
create problems, such as lowered reliability, more expensive repair and
replacement cost, and weird limitations (can't get the big controller
with the small DC/DC, etc.)
No, combining things *does* make sense when the functions are closely
related, or can share many parts. For example, you might combine a DC/DC
with a battery charger, because the two functions are similar (converts
one DC voltage into another isolated DC voltage) and they are used at
different times (a charger while parked, and a DC/DC while driving).
> BTW I saw one of those yellow ribbons today on a big SUV that instead
> of saying "Support the Troops" was "Support My Gastank". Now there's
> someone who's honest.
Thanks for my laugh of the day, Mark! :-)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:14:10 -0400
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Is there an EV Magazine - YES
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
On 11 Sep 2007 at 10:54, Steven Lough wrote:
> The GREEN CAR JOURNAL $1995/year
> http://www.greencar.com/
Wow, that makes Electric Vehicle Progress look cheap!
EVP was published by Victor Wouk until some time in the 1990s, IIRC, and it
cost something like $100 per year - maybe more. It was definitely a bit
much for a hobbyist. But compared to two grand (!), it was a bargain.
You'd really have to be deeply involved commercially, and have pretty deep
pockets, to spend that much for a magazine.
David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:03:16 -0700
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zivans for charging Safts?
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
format="flowed"
The SAFT manual specifies a C/5 rate up to 8.15V/module (adjusting for
temp), then C/20 for a maximum of 8hrs - I had an older Zivan model
set up for 48V NiCd with these current settings that was labeled to
cut off at 9.00V/module, but I don't know if it had the "smarts" to
know much more.
With a 114V/180Ah pack, it seems they could be charged with 2
temp-compensated power supplies, one at 27A/154V and one at 9A/171V
(combined amperage up to the lower voltage), but it would be nice to
also measure total Ahrs with a Link-10.
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:09:41 -0700
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New Optima Pack
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Ralph Merwin wrote:
> I have tried the conditioning charge a few times, but
> stopped it after a few hours when the battery started
> getting too warm. I hadn't thought of breaking it up
> like this. I assume you continue until the battery
> accumulates the full 16 hours?
If you're doing the 4A for 16hrs following a discharge, yes.
Alternatively, after a normal discharge/charge cycle, you could just do
4A for a few hours and then do another discharge/charge cycle to see if
there is any improvement. Ideally you want to let the battery sit
overnight to cool between cycles so that you aren't fooled into thinking
the battery is improving when it is simply getting warmer.
> I have a 25 amp constant current discharger that stps when the battery
> reaches 10.5v. Very handy...
Absolutely!
Cheers,
Roger.
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:13:10 -0700
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla batteries (Was: EV attitudes)
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Michaela Merz wrote:
> Fact is - that NIMH is a proven technology that could be made
> available tomorrow [...]
> But - since that is all just marketing babble - all we CAN do
> is discuss the differences between unobtainium and, well,
> unobtainium.
Do note that large format NiMH is available right now from Cobasys. It
is costly, but not unobtainium.
Cheers,
Roger
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:13:38 -0700
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla batteries (maybe good news via Valence
batteries)
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
format="flowed"
< $7500 of batteries would be 11.5kWh with 96kW continuous power rating, and
it would only weigh 126kg. >
...but the specs don't show any welding tabs, so you'd have to add on
the price of creating connections, too. You can find Dewalt packs near
$100, and those 10 A123 cells will all have tabs (just not the kind
used in the Killacycle).
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:14:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dave Oliveria <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Another EV (Ranger) Grin!
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Storm,
The DCP600 circuit schematic I have (and wired) shows a 5a fuze between 144v
supply and pin 9. Does that sound like it might take the place of the light
bulb you mentioned?
Thanks,
Dave
----- Original Message ----
From: storm connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 3:32:07 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Another EV (Ranger) Grin!
Goes between the 144 supply and pin 9/10. What this does is to limit the
current going into the precharge to about 1/2 amp. (60watts/120volts) The
bulb will light up full when precharge takes place. If you have wired it as
per the manual, that will be when the pack is energized. Others put a
contactor on the negative lead that is closed when the key is turned on, or
a relay that turns on the power to 9/10 when the key is turned on. In either
of these approaches, the light wil light up every time you turn the key on.
When I talked to Peter Senkowski, he told me that this is the approach he
uses on his test bench. As I said before, there are several simple ways to
blow up the precharge. All of them involve trying to power something with
144v when the contactor is open. A slight error in heater installation will
do it. So will pressing the throttle with the contactor not closed.
Anyway, the light bulb is cheap insurance.
FWIW some power tools run nice on 144 vdc. Electric chain saw is handy.
Also, compact flourescents supposedly will work but I haven't tested that. I
had to take my motor to the shop. Bummer> :-(
On 9/11/07, Dave Oliveria <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Storm,
>
> I called Peter Senkowski to discuss returning the controller. He recalled
> my DCP being an older controller and did I jumper 9 & 10. I tried that and
> it works like a charm!
>
> You mentioned the light bulb in the circuit. Should it go between +144V
> and Pin 9/10 or between 9 and 10? And does the bulb glow in this
> configuration?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: storm connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 9:11:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Another EV (Ranger) Grin!
>
>
> Congratulations! Did you figure out the solution or did someone else note
> the missing jumper? The line to pins 9&10 is the one the light bulb is in.
> (Lest your 600 be transformed to a 1200 at outrageous cost) :-)
>
> On 9/10/07, Timothy Balcer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > On 9/10/07, Dave Oliveria <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Hi, all!
> > >
> > > Just a quick note to let you know that my Ranger just gave me the
> > biggest EV Grin! (Next is power brakes and steering, though!). I just
> > drove my ranger up and down the road to get the feel of it then back up
> the
> > driveway (pulls 200amps on the driveway incline!).
> > >
> > > The problem with the controller turns out to be the need for a
> > jumper. Pins 9 and 10 for the older DCP controllers needs to be
> jumpered
> > across to make it work.
> > >
> > > Anyway, she's mobile again after seven months living in the
> > garage! Dang it though, it's time for dinner then a meeting for my
> > daughter! Where do we find time for these projects!
> > >
> > > More later . . ..
> > >
> > > Dave
> >
> > Congratulations!!!!! I send you a virtual electric cigar ;)
> >
> > --T
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
> http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
> Storm
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm
_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:27:36 -0700
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla batteries
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
format="flowed"
< Do note that large format NiMH is available right now from Cobasys.
It is costly, but not unobtainium. >
http://www.cobasys.com/footerpages/faq.shtml
If they'll only sell to OEMs, isn't that unobtainium for the rest of us?
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:55:40 -0700
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla batteries
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> http://www.cobasys.com/footerpages/faq.shtml
>
> If they'll only sell to OEMs, isn't that unobtainium for the
> rest of us?
Yes, that probably does make it a little difficult to get new modules...
Sorry, I'm working with an OEM and knew only that Cobasys had product
for sale; I didn't realise that they weren't selling to individuals.
Their focus in recent years has been selling NiMH into UPS applications,
so it may still be possible to find ones that have been swapped out.
Another Ni-based option is NiZn. I haven't heard anything from eVionyx
in a while, but they were developing product for EVs and indicated that
the weaknesses of the Evercel product were not shared by theirs.
Cheers,
Roger.
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:45:36 -0700
From: Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Bi-stable flip flop advice
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
A quick review of the specs indicate the voltage range is right (15v
recommended but some will take 18 or even 20 peak power supply
volts.) The problem is the current they can provide won't drive a
KUEP relay (at least 100ma required.) So, I would still need an
output transistor or small relay. My flip flop also has to start in
the off state (that is usually a couple of extra parts for an all
solid state solution.) Plus I still need to drive the bidirectional
LED (red/green) built into the heater switch. I would end up with the
HEF 4013 plus some external parts. The basic flip flop on Bill's web
page requires only 8 components (and by making one of them a 4PDT
relay that includes the ability to drive the bidirectional LED.)
Its an interesting part. I had completely forgotten about flip flops
on a chip. I just don't see the integrated approach helping in this
situation.
Thanx,
Paul Gooch
The circuit (from my earlier post):
>> <http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/page9.htm>
>> Its about 1/2 way down the page called, "Single MOSFET Relay Toggle
>> Circuit."
On Sep 10, 2007, at 6:25 PM, Cor van de Water wrote:
> a very stable variant of the bi-stable flipflip can be
> built with a single D-flipflop and bringing the negative
> output back to the D-input.
> Everytime you toggle the clock line (push-button and
> debounce capacitor) you will see the output switch state.
>
> The HEF 4013 flip flop has up to 15V power supply.
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 22:55:52 +0000
From: damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] KillaCycle at the NextFest, Sept 13th-16th
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:02:35 -0600
> To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] KillaCycle at the NextFest, Sept 13th-16th
> On Thursday, outside somewhere, they are going to have me
> slowly run the bike just a bit (if we can figure a safe way to do
> that.) What is even better, however, is that they are going to do a
> live demo of the famous Bell rocket back-pack! I've always wanted to
> see one of these. Way kewl. 8-)
Maybe you can get him to lay down on his stomach and challenge you to a race :-)
damon
_________________________________________________________________
More photos; more messages; more whatever ? Get MORE with Windows Live?
Hotmail?. NOW with 5GB storage.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_5G_0907
------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:43:54 -0700
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla batteries
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Small format NiMH are available today, and are not costly.
but there is no market for them, i.e. "the rest of us" just won't pay
the higher costs for them vs lead.
Jack
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> < Do note that large format NiMH is available right now from Cobasys.
> It is costly, but not unobtainium. >
>
> http://www.cobasys.com/footerpages/faq.shtml
>
> If they'll only sell to OEMs, isn't that unobtainium for the rest of us?
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 19
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:35:43 -0500
From: Tyler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Auto theft devices and EV's
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Yes, this would be the simplest option! There are unfortunately plans to
"revise" the current list as vehicles are equipped with the immobilizes
On 9/11/07, Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Tyler,
>
> I'd be tempted to select a donor vehicle that *wasn't* among those most
> likely to get stolen! It seems that the imobilizer requirement would
> then not apply.
>
> Ralph
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 20
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:41:43 -0700 (MST)
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap Temperature Sensor
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Seems like a lot more work than going down to Walmart and picking up a
digital thermometer with a remote temperature sensor for $8.
Other than the DIY aspect what is the advantage?
> The LM34 integrated circuit temperature sensor
> coupled with a cheap $3 Harbor Freight VOM special
>
> gives direct Fahrenheit temperature readings.
> I plan to epoxy the TO-92 package directly to
>
> my motor and batteries. I already have one on
> my solar hot water tank, powered with a 9 volt
>
> battery. It operates from 5 to 30 volts.
> 10 millivolts per degree F!
>
> John in Sylmar, CA
> PV EV
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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------------------------------
Message: 21
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:45:17 -0700 (MST)
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Auto theft devices and EV's
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Are electric vehicles considered "Most at Risk"? I mean considering the
fact that a theif won't get far before running out of juice and all..
At any rate, simply cutting power to the main contactor will keep the
vehicle from going anywhere. How you do that is probably best kept a
secret.
> Hello,
>
> I stumbled across EV's a few months ago, and am quite eager do my first
> conversion. Due to cost restraints, I am stuck in the "can I do it
> phase". It looks like the only hurdle I may have, is the requirement to
> install an immobilizer. As of Sept 2007, Manitoba Public Insurance has
> mandated the use of select immobilizers in vehicles deemed Most at Rick
> (95%
> theft rate, I think). My concern is how the immobilizer works, buy
> cutting
> power to the starter, ignition and fuel supply. So my question is, has
> anyone installed any type of anti theft device device in their EV, and
> what
> are the opinions on this?
>
> Here is the list of MPI approved Immobilizers,
> http://www.mpi.mb.ca/english/autotheft/TheftImmobilizers.html for more
> info.
>
> *Approved immobilizers *
>
> The following immobilizers have undergone extensive testing and have been
> proven to meet the Canadian Theft Deterrent
> Standard.<http://www.ibc.ca/en/Insurance_Crime/Prevention_Investigation/Immobilizers/IBC_Approved_Immobilizers.asp>
> *Name of Product* *Manufacturer/Importer* Autowatch 329 TI PFK
> Electronics Autowatch
> 573 PPi PFK Electronics Mastergard M6000 MasterGard Enterprises
> Powerlock-Canada Ultimate Security Systems
>
>
> Thanks,
> Tyler
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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------------------------------
Message: 22
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:48:01 -0500
From: Tyler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Auto theft devices and EV's
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
For vehicles on the Most at Risk list, yes it is required. The basic
install cost of $140, is waived, as well as a $40 per year discount.
On 9/11/07, Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Is it actually a requirement? The page you linked says that they offer a
> $40/year discount for using an immobilizer. That may or may not be worth
> the trouble if that's all it is.
>
> Also, it indicates that the immobilizer must be installed by an authorized
> dealer. May want to check with them to see if they'd even touch an
> EV. As
> far as immobilization, you can do a lot of things, such as have it send a
> high or low signal to the throttle pot input, since many controllers won't
> enable if the pot is out of range.
>
>
> Tim
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 23
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 20:48:23 EDT
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nedra
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
I am having a hard time reaching the nedra site.How do I get to it? D.Berube
------------------------------
Message: 24
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:51:10 -0500
From: Tyler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Auto theft devices and EV's
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
The list is primarily concerned with year, make and model, so yes, the law
would apply to electric conversions.
On 9/11/07, storm connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Sounds like another successful lobbyist. ;-) My need has been a mobilizer
> rather than an immobilizer. If you had the only electric whatever, if it
> was
> stolen the theft rate would be 100%, but if it wasn't, the rate would be
> 0%.
> Does the law apply to you?
>
> Anyway, cutting power to the contactor control circuit would immobilize
> it.
>
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 25
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 20:03:45 -0700 (MST)
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Combining Functionality
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Combining functionality can make sense under certain circumstances.
If, for example, the cost of producing the seperate parts drops to the
point where you can save money by making one combined part and
exconomicaly toss it if it fails.
I used to be against computer motherboards that included all of the common
interfaces (FDD, HDD, Serial, etc.)
But now, the integrated motherboards are so cheap, it doesn't matter if
one part fails.
So I can see, eventually, combining motor controller logic and DC-DC, with
the power stage on a separate card. After all the logic is going to need
a DC-DC anyway.
But this only makes sense if the volume is high enough that there is a
significant cst savings to combining them and the replacement cost of the
card is cheap enough to make tossing it economical.
I.e. it has to cost less to replace than to repair.
At any rate, we are no where near the volume for this to make sense and I
don't see us getting there in the forseable future.
> Hi Folk's
>
> Generally combining functionality and not using a modular approach is
> historically a bad idea. Look at the 1945 Philco-Ford TV's and RCA
> Victors
> where they combined the radio, TV and phonograph with a common power
> supply.
> The result was each "component" had a 4X MTBF (since they shared a lot
> of
> components that got used when you were using any part of the system).
>
> We went through the same hysterical (I mean historical :-) exercise at
> GE-Ev
> for marketing porposes (it does initially sell things) combining a DC-Dc
> converter with a battery charger and then combining the charger with the
> motor speed control. Due to the poor reliability of combining things,
> they
> were seperated out later conventionally. Combining things works for
> marketeers but not in reality, generally headed for a fall when you do.
> See
> my EV charger patent 6,218,812 www.uspto.gov
>
> BTW I saw one of those yellow ribbons today on a big SUV that instead of
> saying "Support the Troops" was "Support My Gastank". Now there's someone
> who's honest.
>
> Have a renewable energy day,
> Mark in Roanoke, VA
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Test your celebrity IQ.? Play Red Carpet Reveal and earn great prizes!
> http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=redcarpet_hotmailtextlink2
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
------------------------------
Message: 26
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 20:06:36 -0700 (MST)
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Auto theft devices and EV's
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Get a vehicle that is not currently on the list. Within a year or two
theives will figure out how to bypass the imobilizer anyway and it will
become moot.
> Yes, this would be the simplest option! There are unfortunately plans to
> "revise" the current list as vehicles are equipped with the immobilizes
>
> On 9/11/07, Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Tyler,
>>
>> I'd be tempted to select a donor vehicle that *wasn't* among those most
>> likely to get stolen! It seems that the imobilizer requirement would
>> then not apply.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
------------------------------
Message: 27
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:44:33 -0700
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Solectria Sunrise project
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Lee, could you lay out exactly what your longterm gameplan is with the
Solectria?
-----Original Message-----
Can we pull it off? I don't know... but I'm certainly going to try!
------------------------------
Message: 28
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:51:47 -0700
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery theory
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
My big question is how reliable it would be to string together cells into
larger packs without having an individual monitor on every single cell?
Like the person who suggested stringing C-sized Lifepos into a long tube,
you'd only be able to monitor the combined properties of the cells, not the
individual cells themselves. If an individual cell were to go bad in the
middle of the tube, it would be hard to isolate it.
-----Original Message-----
although I'm not sure there are many here with serious chemistry
knowledge I will float the question anyway
is there a fundamental difference, balancing wise, between a large Ah
cell or several smaller of same combined capacity in parallel?
------------------------------
Message: 29
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:56:39 -0600
From: Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Is there an EV Magazine - YES
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
David,
Check out the Subscribe link on the URL given by Steven and you'll see
that the subscription price is $19.95 for four quarterly issues.
David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
> On 11 Sep 2007 at 10:54, Steven Lough wrote:
>
>
>> The GREEN CAR JOURNAL $1995/year
>> http://www.greencar.com/
>>
>
> Wow, that makes Electric Vehicle Progress look cheap!
>
> EVP was published by Victor Wouk until some time in the 1990s, IIRC, and it
> cost something like $100 per year - maybe more. It was definitely a bit
> much for a hobbyist. But compared to two grand (!), it was a bargain.
>
> You'd really have to be deeply involved commercially, and have pretty deep
> pockets, to spend that much for a magazine.
>
> David Roden
> EVDL Administrator
> http://www.evdl.org/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 30
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:56:38 -0700
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hymotion & A123
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
That's the thing. Tesla's not using A123 cells. GM is. People seem to be
getting their lines crossed between the two. Considering that even at this
early stage there has been so much press coverage of the A123 cells, by the
time the Volt comes out people will be asking why the hell Tesla is still
using unsafe lithium cells. The pressure is going to really build for them
to switch over if it hasn't already.
-----Original Message-----
A123 cells don't explode, mate :)
On 9/11/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A blog item from mid august says they were about to do formal crash
> tests. Any news on that front? Assuming these are simply head-on
> crashes, they may not reveal anything, but if the BMS is punctured in
> a rear-end collision I would expect an explosion spectacular enough to
> fill an Iraqi carbomber with envy.
------------------------------
Message: 31
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:48:07 -0600
From: Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Rocket backpack (Was: Re: KillaCycle at the NextFest,
Sept 13th-16th)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Bill Dube wrote:
> they are going to do a
> live demo of the famous Bell rocket back-pack! I've always wanted to
> see one of these.
They had one at the 2006 X PRIZE Cup show in Las Cruces, NM.
<http://space.xprize.org/x-prize-cup/>
It was pretty cool, although the flight was short. I was more impressed
by the rocket-powered bicycle. :) He needed a lot of that runway.
I don't know if they'll do it (either one) again this year, though, but
I can guarantee a good show.
------------------------------
Message: 32
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:25:52 -0500
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery theory
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My big question is how reliable it would be to string together cells into
> larger packs without having an individual monitor on every single cell?
> Like the person who suggested stringing C-sized Lifepos into a long tube,
> you'd only be able to monitor the combined properties of the cells, not the
> individual cells themselves. If an individual cell were to go bad in the
> middle of the tube, it would be hard to isolate it.
Without battery monitoring/equalization, once the cells start to get
unbalanced, you'll overcharge some while charging and over-discharge
others while driving; this will really shorten the life of your
battery pack.
You can just cut slits in the side of the tube and put in tabs for the
battery management system there. You still have to get the BMS,
though; I don't know of an existing solution that you or I could buy.
For anything mass-produced, it would be stupid (economically/range
wise) to not use BMS, but for the first hobbyist solutions there may
not be many available/affordable BMS options.
-Morgan
------------------------------
Message: 33
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:30:03 -0700
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] LTC
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_vie
w&newsId=20070911005593&newsLang=en
Don't know how new this information is but it just showed up in my Google
alert. So add LTC to the list of companies who are making automotive-grade
lifepo batteries (this time for Toyota). Their website hasn't been updated
to reflect this yet. Their technology page still talks about lithium
cobalt. So someone should make the obligatory cold-call about making these
available to consumers.
------------------------------
Message: 34
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:42:07 -0500
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla batteries (maybe good news via Valence
batteries)
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Any lower cost machines available?
http://www.powerstream.com/spot-welder.htm
------------------------------
Message: 35
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:07:47 -0600
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery theory
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Its very simple to find a bad or low cell in a series string. Takes only
about 5 minutes to find the bad cell. I use to have ninety 2 volt cobalt
cells in series for a 180 volt pack.
Take a volt meter reading across the whole battery and lets say it reads 178
volts. Then read one half of the batteries and lets say one side reads 90
volts and the other half reads 88 volts.
You then split the 88 volt half into two more halves which you may read 45
volts in one side and 43 volts on the other. You then keep splitting the
lower voltage section until you get down to one cell.
This was the methods we use when we want to find a bad street light that
were wire all in series. Each city block had a return loop at one corner of
the block to perform this test.
I still perform this test with my 6 volt batteries about every four months
and found two of them that had a voltage different of 0.02 with the rest of
the batteries. I than finish charge these two batteries for about 1 minute
after I do a normal charge with the main battery charger.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery theory
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > My big question is how reliable it would be to string together cells
> > into
> > larger packs without having an individual monitor on every single cell?
> > Like the person who suggested stringing C-sized Lifepos into a long
> > tube,
> > you'd only be able to monitor the combined properties of the cells, not
> > the
> > individual cells themselves. If an individual cell were to go bad in
> > the
> > middle of the tube, it would be hard to isolate it.
>
> Without battery monitoring/equalization, once the cells start to get
> unbalanced, you'll overcharge some while charging and over-discharge
> others while driving; this will really shorten the life of your
> battery pack.
>
> You can just cut slits in the side of the tube and put in tabs for the
> battery management system there. You still have to get the BMS,
> though; I don't know of an existing solution that you or I could buy.
> For anything mass-produced, it would be stupid (economically/range
> wise) to not use BMS, but for the first hobbyist solutions there may
> not be many available/affordable BMS options.
>
> -Morgan
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 36
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 22:55:45 -0500
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Bi-stable flip flop advice
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I agree that the physical relay works well for you because of your
requirement to start powered down.
To re-value the parts for higher voltage operation, it's not too hard.
Here's what I'd do:
Assume a new voltage range, say 12V to 17V
Choose resistor values so it stays in the right range. With your
suggestion of 2k4, running at 20V, the gate is held at:
17V*(15k||2k4)/(15k||2k4+15k)=2V
This is the minimum Vgs(to) of your transistor, so as long as your
battery is under 17V (any time besides equalization charging), holding
the button down as long as you want won't toggle the circuit twice.
Your resistor choice works fine.
Then all that's left is adjusting the capacitor time to make it
faster. Your relay has a 7ms max pull, but let's go a bit bigger and
shoot for 50ms. This is still fast enough to be unnoticeable to a
person, but it gives us some breathing room.
We are discharging the capacitor through some resistors, and we want
to know how long it takes to discharge from 6V to 3V. We can ignore
the gate of the MOSFET because its input capacitance is measured in
picofarads, roughly 6 orders of magnitude smaller than the discrete
capacitor.
Vs=12V to 17V
Rs=15k
Rp=2069 (15k||2k4)
C=???
Vt=4V
The capacitor starts out charged to half the supply voltage through
the two 15k resistors.
Vc(t=0)=0.5Vs
Ic=C*dVc/dt=(Vs-Vc)/15000-Vc/2069=Vs/15000-Vc/(2069||15000)
This differential equation starts at 0.5Vs, decays to 2069/17069*Vs,
and has time constant C*(2069||15000); we can write an equation for Vs
as a function of t.
Vc(t)=2069/17069*Vs+(0.5-2069/17069)*Vs*exp(-t/(1818*C))
Vc(t=50ms)=Vs*(0.121+0.379*exp(-1/(36364C)))
We're more pressed for time at lower supply voltages, so say Vs=12V
and Vc(t=50ms)=4V; then solve the equation.
4=12*(0.121+0.379*exp(-1/(36364C)))
ln((4/12-0.121)/0.379)=-1/(36364C)
-0.579=-1/(36364C)
C=1/(36364*0.579)=47uF
You can clearly see from the equation for Vc(t) that at higher Vs,
Vc(t=50ms) is higher, so you'll be farther above the cutoff voltage.
If you plug the original numbers into my equation, the voltage falls
to 3.76V after 200ms, which fits quite well. Our capacitance number
also makes sense because we are multiplying the time by 0.25, but we
are also using a smaller resistor (2k4 instead of 3k3), which requires
more current from the capacitor. We are also settling to a higher
voltage, 4V instead of 3.76V.
The value 47uF isn't exact; you'd be fine with a decent range of capacitances.
-Morgan LaMoore
------------------------------
Message: 37
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 22:57:34 -0500
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla batteries
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Small format NiMH are available today, and are not costly.
> but there is no market for them, i.e. "the rest of us" just won't pay
> the higher costs for them vs lead.
> Jack
Plus, small format batteries require a much better BMS than large
format batteries. That's what kills it for me.
-Morgan LaMoore
------------------------------
Message: 38
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 23:06:27 -0500
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla batteries (maybe good news via Valence
batteries)
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> < $7500 of batteries would be 11.5kWh with 96kW continuous power rating, and
> it would only weigh 126kg. >
>
> ...but the specs don't show any welding tabs, so you'd have to add on
> the price of creating connections, too. You can find Dewalt packs near
> $100, and those 10 A123 cells will all have tabs (just not the kind
> used in the Killacycle).
>
Yeah, but that costs twice as much per cell, at roughly the same
capacity. I don't think it's worthwhile to pay an extra $5/cell for
tabs. (I know you also get the plastic case and BMS, but I still don't
think it's worth the price increase.)
-Morgan LaMoore
------------------------------
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