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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Dual Pro (Jeff Major)
2. Re: charging flooded batteries on an angle ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
3. Kokam / lithium "shelf life" (Lawrie, Robin)
4. Re: charging flooded batteries on an angle (Brian Staffanson)
5. Re: charging flooded batteries on an angle (Roland Wiench)
6. Re: Using a motorcycle gearbox in a full-sized EV.
(David Dymaxion)
7. Re: Using a motorcycle gearbox in a full-sized EV. (Zeke Yewdall)
8. Re: Dual Pro (Dave (Battery Boy) Hawkins)
9. Re: Kokam / lithium "shelf life" (Osmo S.)
10. Re: Kokam / lithium "shelf life" (Peter Gabrielsson)
11. Need photos for new york times NEDRA article (Michael T Kadie)
12. Re: Kokam / lithium "shelf life" (Lawrie, Robin)
13. Re: Perspective... (Lee Hart)
14. Re: Picture of an E-Meter (Link-10) with a serial port? (Lee Hart)
15. Re: Picture of an E-Meter (Link-10) with a serial port?
(Steven Ciciora)
16. Re: Kokam / lithium "shelf life" ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
17. Re: EVS-23 (Dave (Battery Boy) Hawkins)
18. Re: Perspective... (Peter Gabrielsson)
19. Re: Perspective... (Zeke Yewdall)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 07:27:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Dual Pro
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Hi David,
The salesman I deal with over the phone says the
charger shuts off when complete. Then will turn on
again if the voltage falls below XX.X volts on the
battery. He claims no problem with leaving them on
for long periods. I do not see any temperature range
listed in the manual. They do have a temp sensor for
each charge lead located near where the cord splits
for pos and neg terminals. This should compensate for
different battery temperatures. I'll ask the guys if
they actually show up.
Jeff M
--- David Hrivnak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks Jeff one question I would ask is if there is
> any problem leaving. It plugged in for a few weeks?
> What if one accidentally left on vacation for two
> weeks could you fry the batteries? A second
> question would be in a hybrid conversion can they be
> mounted under the hood where temperatues could reach
> 200?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 3:56 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Dual Pro
>
>
> Hi David,
>
> I have been testing a 4 bank Dual Pro on an old
> version of a 48 volt IUV that I use around the
> homestead. Seems to work pretty well. Had it for
> about 4 or 5 months. Charge about 1 or 2 times a
> week. I thought there might be an issue when I deep
> discharged the batteries quickly. 2 banks went
> green
> and 2 stayed on second red LED. Let every thing
> cool
> down (off) and charged up next day, all went green
> about same time.
>
> It is mounted under the bed and protected from
> taking
> a hit, but is rather open to elements. Stored and
> charged in the barn, no heat. Seems pretty solid.
>
> I am not a battery or charger expert by any means.
> And reading all that comes across this forum about
> the
> subject really leaves me feeling a bit stupid. But,
> the Dual Pro sales VP and engineer are stopping out
> to
> my place next week to view the application. Anybody
> want to suggest some intelligent questions I could
> put
> to them?
>
> BTW, I have been using the Minn Kota version for a
> couple of years with good results.
>
> Later,
>
> Jeff M
>
>
> --- David Hrivnak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Does anyone have experience with the Dual Pro
> marine
> > chargers? I was looking for some sealed chargers
> I
> > can use on my conversion that can be mounted where
> > they might be exposed to heat and rain. They
> charge
> > each battery separately so you do not need to
> > balance batteries. Thank you.
> >
> > Ps I did check the EV album list and either this
> is
> > a new charging system or not a good one as oly one
> > person listed it.
> >
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 08:01:23 -0800
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] charging flooded batteries on an angle
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
A full battery should always keep the plates covered even on an
incline. If you look at a dead dry battery you will see that the top
of the plates are much further down to allow full coverage even when
a tad low on water to protect the plates. If your batteries have
plates showing your not doing your job keeping up with your job to
keep the batteries in top condition.
Pete
On Nov 7, 2007, at 6:22 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 1) Is there an issue with charging my truck with flooded T-125's while
> parked on an angle.
> Typically I'm parked on a flat surface, but at work there is a
> slight pitch
> front to back.
> What about a sideways pitch
> (the batterie's are in both 0 and 90 and 180 and 270 degree
> orientations.
>
> Does this only matter if the batteries are low on water?
>
> What happens to the part of the plates not coverred with water.?
>
>
> 2) What happens when I drive up a steep hill at high current and
> some of
> the plate is not coverred by water?
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 16:01:35 -0000
From: "Lawrie, Robin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Kokam / lithium "shelf life"
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Ive heard persistent rumours that the Kokam Cells have a restricted
shelf life regardless of usage... is this the case? I cant even remember
where I heard it... is this an issue with li-po cells in general?
Cliff? You seem to be the man to ask..
Ive been quoted a nice (its all relative) price on some 40 ah cells, but
don't want to blow my load on some 2000+ cycle cells that only last 5
years regardless...
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 09:05:09 -0700
From: "Brian Staffanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] charging flooded batteries on an angle
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
What about discharge on a fairly steep incline? Meaning a higher current
draw. I have a few of those that I need to traverse, once my car is
running. Maybe I should have gotten gel or agm.
Brian
On 11/7/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> A full battery should always keep the plates covered even on an
> incline. If you look at a dead dry battery you will see that the top
> of the plates are much further down to allow full coverage even when
> a tad low on water to protect the plates. If your batteries have
> plates showing your not doing your job keeping up with your job to
> keep the batteries in top condition.
>
> Pete
>
>
>
> On Nov 7, 2007, at 6:22 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > 1) Is there an issue with charging my truck with flooded T-125's while
> > parked on an angle.
> > Typically I'm parked on a flat surface, but at work there is a
> > slight pitch
> > front to back.
> > What about a sideways pitch
> > (the batterie's are in both 0 and 90 and 180 and 270 degree
> > orientations.
> >
> > Does this only matter if the batteries are low on water?
> >
> > What happens to the part of the plates not coverred with water.?
> >
> >
> > 2) What happens when I drive up a steep hill at high current and
> > some of
> > the plate is not coverred by water?
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 09:05:53 -0700
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] charging flooded batteries on an angle
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Make sure you have at least 1 inch of electrolyte above your battery plates
when you are park on a level. The electrolyte level in a charge battery
should be to the bottom of the fill neck, which is just touching or could be
a little bit higher.
Only add distill water at about 85 to 90% State of Charge, which is about at
the end of charge, so the water mixes better and you do not overfill because
charging some high ampere batteries, the electrolyte level will rise.
Check out the grade that you are parking on. Take a level and mark a line
at 3-3/8 inches, 7 inches, 10-1/8 inches and 12 inches on the level. The
10-1/8 inch mark is the length of your battery. The 3-3/8 inch mark is the
length of a cells in the 10-1/8 inch of the length of the battery and 7
inches is the cell length in the 7-3/8 inch width of the battery.
Place the level on the slope with one of the level touching the ground and
hold it level using the level bubbles as a indicator. While you are holding
it level take a ruler and measure from the 3-3/8 inch and 7 inch mark to the
ground.
Lets say these reads 1/4 inch in 3-3/8 inches, so that's what the difference
if level from one end of the cell to the other. This is close to a 12-1
pitch or is call a 1 inch rise in 12 inch run of length.
So for a quick check, just read the rise of slope at the 12 inch mark.
If its reads 1 inch at the 12 inch mark, then for one cell length of about 3
inches, the electrolyte will have above 0.29 inch difference in level.
Therefore 1-12 is about 0.29 inch difference.
2-12 is about 0.58 inch difference.
4-12 is about 1.16 inch difference.
A 4-12 pitch per foot is about 20 degree of angle. This is about the normal
rise of a roof on a house is at.
The normal drive way that is slope from the street to the house may be as
high as 2-12 pitch or about 10 degree angle. Streets are crown at about 0.5
inch per foot or 0.5-12 and sidewalks are slope at 0.25 inch per foot.
The maximum slopes that the interstate highways are kept at about 7 percent
rise or 90 degrees x .07 = about 6.5 degrees which is about 1.3 inches per
foot.
So if your drive ways reads about 2-12 pitch or 2 inch rise in 12 inches,
your electrolyte level may be about 1/2 inch difference from one end of the
cell to the other in the 10-1/8 inch length of the battery.
If the battery slopes the 7-3/8 inch width of the batter, the cell lengths
are about 7 inches long, so if you park on a 2-12 pitch slope than the
electrolyte level could be just over 1 inch difference.
It is best to keep the electrolyte as high as possible or only park on
slopes of 1 inch rise in 12 inches.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 7:22 AM
Subject: [EVDL] charging flooded batteries on an angle
> 1) Is there an issue with charging my truck with flooded T-125's while
> parked on an angle.
> Typically I'm parked on a flat surface, but at work there is a slight
> pitch
> front to back.
> What about a sideways pitch
> (the batterie's are in both 0 and 90 and 180 and 270 degree orientations.
>
> Does this only matter if the batteries are low on water?
>
> What happens to the part of the plates not coverred with water.?
>
>
> 2) What happens when I drive up a steep hill at high current and some of
> the plate is not coverred by water?
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 08:42:52 -0800 (PST)
From: David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using a motorcycle gearbox in a full-sized EV.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Be careful, just because it can handle 100 hp doesn't mean it can handle car
levels of torque. A car weighs 5 to 10 times a motorcycle's weight, and needs
alot more torque just to get moving. A small transmission like that might
overheat, too. The clutch would be too wimpy and easily burned up.
----- Original Message ----
From: Dominant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 7, 2007 7:48:44 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Using a motorcycle gearbox in a full-sized EV.
While contemplating my options on a future EV, I started looking at
gearbox options. The obvious route is to leave the existing gearbox
in the car. This gives me the flexability of both suburban and
highway driving at as low a drain rate as I can manage. The problem
is it you want to use the clutch as an emergency disconnect, or
variable regen 'switch'. So I started thinking about semi-automatic
'sports' gearboxes, like those you find in an increasing number of
passenger vehicles these days. These are hard to come by, unless you
find an appropriate wreck, but I then spotted this on EBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200170464766
I'd guess it would mount to an electric motor much like the gearbox
on a FWD would. And with a rating for 100+hp, it'd be a great fit
for 20 - 30Kw motors, and a weight reduction of maybe 50 kilos.
Has anyone had any experience with fitting a motorbike gearbox into a
full-sized car or truck?
_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 09:48:50 -0700
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using a motorcycle gearbox in a full-sized EV.
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Yeah, you need to figure out what kind of torque it can handle. The
horsepower doesn't mean all that much. I suspect that the torque in a
car will be quite a bit higher than it's rated for.
Z
On 11/7/07, David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Be careful, just because it can handle 100 hp doesn't mean it can handle car
> levels of torque. A car weighs 5 to 10 times a motorcycle's weight, and needs
> alot more torque just to get moving. A small transmission like that might
> overheat, too. The clutch would be too wimpy and easily burned up.
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Dominant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 7, 2007 7:48:44 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] Using a motorcycle gearbox in a full-sized EV.
>
> While contemplating my options on a future EV, I started looking at
> gearbox options. The obvious route is to leave the existing gearbox
> in the car. This gives me the flexability of both suburban and
> highway driving at as low a drain rate as I can manage. The problem
> is it you want to use the clutch as an emergency disconnect, or
> variable regen 'switch'. So I started thinking about semi-automatic
> 'sports' gearboxes, like those you find in an increasing number of
> passenger vehicles these days. These are hard to come by, unless you
> find an appropriate wreck, but I then spotted this on EBay:
> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200170464766
>
> I'd guess it would mount to an electric motor much like the gearbox
> on a FWD would. And with a rating for 100+hp, it'd be a great fit
> for 20 - 30Kw motors, and a weight reduction of maybe 50 kilos.
>
> Has anyone had any experience with fitting a motorbike gearbox into a
> full-sized car or truck?
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 09:54:55 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: "Dave (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Dual Pro
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
David and All,
I remember Bruce Parmenter tried these, wasn't happy with them, and might have
had a failure. A Google search on him and Dual Pro gave me numerous hits like:
http://brucedp.150m.com/blazer/
BB
>Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:56:23 -0800 (PST)
>From: Jeff Major
>
>Hi David,
>
>I have been testing a 4 bank Dual Pro on an old
>version of a 48 volt IUV that I use around the
>homestead. Seems to work pretty well. Had it for
>about 4 or 5 months. Charge about 1 or 2 times a
>week. I thought there might be an issue when I deep
>discharged the batteries quickly. 2 banks went green
>and 2 stayed on second red LED. Let every thing cool
>down (off) and charged up next day, all went green
>about same time.
>
>It is mounted under the bed and protected from taking
>a hit, but is rather open to elements. Stored and
>charged in the barn, no heat. Seems pretty solid.
>
>I am not a battery or charger expert by any means.
>And reading all that comes across this forum about the
>subject really leaves me feeling a bit stupid. But,
>the Dual Pro sales VP and engineer are stopping out to
>my place next week to view the application. Anybody
>want to suggest some intelligent questions I could put
>to them?
>
>BTW, I have been using the Minn Kota version for a
>couple of years with good results.
>
>Later,
>
>Jeff M
>
>
>--- David Hrivnak wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have experience with the Dual Pro marine
>> chargers? I was looking for some sealed chargers I
>> can use on my conversion that can be mounted where
>> they might be exposed to heat and rain. They charge
>> each battery separately so you do not need to
>> balance batteries. Thank you.
>>
>> Ps I did check the EV album list and either this is
>> a new charging system or not a good one as oly one
>> person listed it.
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 19:01:30 +0200
From: "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Kokam / lithium "shelf life"
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
I believe this information comes from Philippe Borges, who wrote in
March 2006:
"i think no company will answer you (trustfully) on calendar life of
their
lithium batteries, because it's their major drawback.
It's a fact than once assembled, it start to "self-destruct", worst
if not
used...
This said one people aswered me, it was Kokam CEO himself during
EVS21 :^)
I asked about calendar life of their li-ion cells
He told me something like: our cells are near new but we think you can
expect arround 4-5 years calendar life before real capacity loss.
I asked if capacity loss was significative
he told me: under usual target 80% capacity left.
I asked if half capacity loss was possible
He told me: yes it's possible."
Terveisin,
Osmo
Lawrie, Robin kirjoitti 7.11.2007 kello 18.01:
> Ive heard persistent rumours that the Kokam Cells have a restricted
> shelf life regardless of usage... is this the case? I cant even
> remember
> where I heard it... is this an issue with li-po cells in general?
>
> Cliff? You seem to be the man to ask..
>
> Ive been quoted a nice (its all relative) price on some 40 ah
> cells, but
> don't want to blow my load on some 2000+ cycle cells that only last 5
> years regardless...
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 09:30:04 -0800
From: "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Kokam / lithium "shelf life"
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Shelf life is a function of cell voltage and temperature, store them
at lower voltage and keep them cool to maximize shelf life. The lower
voltage chemistries like A123 and Altair's batteries suffer less from
aging largely because of lower voltage.
The manufacturer is however the best source for this info...
On Nov 7, 2007 9:01 AM, Osmo S. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I believe this information comes from Philippe Borges, who wrote in
> March 2006:
>
> "i think no company will answer you (trustfully) on calendar life of
> their
> lithium batteries, because it's their major drawback.
> It's a fact than once assembled, it start to "self-destruct", worst
> if not
> used...
>
> This said one people aswered me, it was Kokam CEO himself during
> EVS21 :^)
> I asked about calendar life of their li-ion cells
> He told me something like: our cells are near new but we think you can
> expect arround 4-5 years calendar life before real capacity loss.
> I asked if capacity loss was significative
> he told me: under usual target 80% capacity left.
> I asked if half capacity loss was possible
> He told me: yes it's possible."
>
> Terveisin,
> Osmo
>
> Lawrie, Robin kirjoitti 7.11.2007 kello 18.01:
>
>
> > Ive heard persistent rumours that the Kokam Cells have a restricted
> > shelf life regardless of usage... is this the case? I cant even
> > remember
> > where I heard it... is this an issue with li-po cells in general?
> >
> > Cliff? You seem to be the man to ask..
> >
> > Ive been quoted a nice (its all relative) price on some 40 ah
> > cells, but
> > don't want to blow my load on some 2000+ cycle cells that only last 5
> > years regardless...
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
--
www.electric-lemon.com
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 09:42:17 -0800
From: "Michael T Kadie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Need photos for new york times NEDRA article
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi res (500k-1meg) photos of
EV burning rubber.
Start line jumping.
And recharge troth photos.
Preferably from Portland NEDRA 10th anniversary, but not required.
Include any photo credits (i.e. who took the photos)
Will be in Sunday Auto section in near future
Thanks,
Michael
Send photos to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 18:13:21 -0000
From: "Lawrie, Robin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Kokam / lithium "shelf life"
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Eew... 4-5 years..what I remembered hearing... I asked kokam, who
stated that they are currently testing and have no info pertaining to
shelf life, they will send info as and when they get it. This was
today.
Im assuming this means the cells haven't been around long enough to get
a conclusive result?
They've been round at least 2 years, since that was when I made my first
enquiries with them.. cliff was already racing round a track with them
then... you'd think they could extrapolate a curve from 2+ years of
data...
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter Gabrielsson
Sent: 07 November 2007 17:30
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Kokam / lithium "shelf life"
Shelf life is a function of cell voltage and temperature, store them
at lower voltage and keep them cool to maximize shelf life. The lower
voltage chemistries like A123 and Altair's batteries suffer less from
aging largely because of lower voltage.
The manufacturer is however the best source for this info...
On Nov 7, 2007 9:01 AM, Osmo S. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I believe this information comes from Philippe Borges, who wrote in
> March 2006:
>
> "i think no company will answer you (trustfully) on calendar life of
> their
> lithium batteries, because it's their major drawback.
> It's a fact than once assembled, it start to "self-destruct", worst
> if not
> used...
>
> This said one people aswered me, it was Kokam CEO himself during
> EVS21 :^)
> I asked about calendar life of their li-ion cells
> He told me something like: our cells are near new but we think you can
> expect arround 4-5 years calendar life before real capacity loss.
> I asked if capacity loss was significative
> he told me: under usual target 80% capacity left.
> I asked if half capacity loss was possible
> He told me: yes it's possible."
>
> Terveisin,
> Osmo
>
> Lawrie, Robin kirjoitti 7.11.2007 kello 18.01:
>
>
> > Ive heard persistent rumours that the Kokam Cells have a restricted
> > shelf life regardless of usage... is this the case? I cant even
> > remember
> > where I heard it... is this an issue with li-po cells in general?
> >
> > Cliff? You seem to be the man to ask..
> >
> > Ive been quoted a nice (its all relative) price on some 40 ah
> > cells, but
> > don't want to blow my load on some 2000+ cycle cells that only last
5
> > years regardless...
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
--
www.electric-lemon.com
_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:40:52 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Perspective...
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Lee Hart wrote:
>>> Ground the controller case and motor.
Bill Dennis asked:
>> To chassis ground, or to traction negative? If to chassis ground,
>> do you ever run the risk this way of having the chassis with a path
>> to the traction pack (e.g., via motor dust)?
Chassis ground. This is the best RF ground that you have.
George Swartz wrote:
> Depending on how you need to arrange your dielectric, and especially
> how your charger is hooked up and whether it is line isolated, etc,
> you can use small capacitors to achieve RF ground without the danger
> of a DC fault and power follow through.
If it is convenient to leave your motor ungrounded, then it is as good,
and in some cases better to ground the motor case through a good RF
capacitor, like 0.01uF ceramic. This has the advantage of not creating
DC leakage paths from carbon dust or a wet motor. However, this is
mechanically difficult; every mounting bolt has to be isolated (such as
with rubber mounts), and there needs to be some non-metallic coupler in
the shaft (such as a rubber spider coupler).
Though off-topic a bit, it's worth mentioning that most commercial EVs
and hybrids have a DC ground fault sensor. They serve the same purpose
as a GFCI for the AC charger -- to detect ground faults and prevent
operation until they are fixed.
A DC ground fault detector is harder to build, because you can't use a
simple current sensing transformer like the AC GFCI. The usual method is
to have a relay or electronic switch that alternately connects a large
value resistor from ground to the + end of the pack, then the - end of
the pack. If a DC voltage appears across this resistor, then there is a
ground fault somewhere that is completing the circuit and allowing
current to flow.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 11:45:33 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Picture of an E-Meter (Link-10) with a serial
port?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Jake Oshins wrote:
> Thanks for this detail. It's tremendously helpful.
>
> From this, I can tell that both of my E-meters happen to be fully
> populated, except for the nine-pin D connector. So I don't need to
> take you up on your generous offers.
>
> It was interesting to look at the two of them, though. They both
> came in packaging labeled "Xantrex." But one of them has "Cruising
> Equipment Co. Seattle Washington" on the case. This one is conformal
> coated on the inside, making the chips really hard to decipher. On
> the plus side, all the resistors and capacitors are silk-screened on
> the board. The other one has no silk screen, but also no coating,
> so the chips are easier to make out.
I took a look inside two of my E-meters; one with and one without serial
port. Both are "E-meters" made by Cruising Equipment. The one without
the serial port (rev.4) was made in 1997; the one with it (rev.6) in
2001. The older board is not conformally coated; the later one is.
Neither main board has silkscreening on either side to identify part
locations.
Steven Ciciora Sent:
> Yes, I do have pictures of E-meter guts. Both with and without the
> serial port option. I don't have access to the pictures right now.
> If you email me a picture of what you have (it will be interesting to
> me to compare against what I have) I can tell you the differences
> between yours and mine. I've performed the upgrade several times and
> it has always worked. Some emeters come with the SN75155 chip and
> two caps (no missing resistors involved) in which case, all you have
> to do is add a 9 pin connector, others don't come with those parts.
On the ones I have, the one without the serial port left out:
- 9-pin male D-connector
- SN75155 8-pin surface mount chip, mounted on bottom of board,
straight toward the front from pin 1 of the D connector, pin 1
end toward the front of the meter.
- C29: 0.1uf ceramic capacitor, surface mount, on the pads near
pins 3-4 of the SN75155.
- C8: 470pf ceramic capacitor, surface mount, on bottom of board
near pins 7-8 of the 20-pin SN74HC573 chip.
- 100 ohm resistor, on top side of board at the extreme right rear
corner between two capacitors.
There might be more; but these are what I remember having to add. I
don't know the capacitor values; they aren't marked and I'd have to take
them off the board to measure them.
> All my comments assume you have a surface mount e-meter. I've only
> seen one e-meter with leaded components, and have not studied it to
> determine the difference. For what it's worth, this version had 3
> PCBs total (vs the more common surface mount one with only two PCBs).
>
>
> As I said above, the missing chip is an SN75155. It's an 8 pin
> surface mount chip, located on the same side as the EPROM (the
> "BOTTOM"). It's the chip closest to the 9-pin connector, and pin 1
> is located farthest away from the 9-pin (closest to the display).
> There are no resistors involved; just two caps.
See above. The resistor completes the ground path of the D-connector,
pin 5. It and the 75155 are what usually blow up if you connect the
serial port to something that is not isolated.
> One is simply a 0.1uF decoupling cap, located to the left of the
> chip. You can see a trace between the bottom pad and pin 4 of the
> IC. This is C29. The other potentially missing cap is C8, which is
> 470 pF. It is horizontally mounted (right angle to C29), located to
> the right of C14, and to the left of R4, just below the HC573 address
> demultiplexer chip. C14 is the 22uF 50V surface mount cap just to
> the right of the chip.
Thanks! I didn't have the component designators for these parts. Your
data also corroborates my findings.
> Pin 2 of the 9 pin goes to pin 5 of the 75155, and is the RS-232 data
> input to the CPU. The TTL version of this signal is on pin 3 of the
> 75155, and goes to pin 24 of the CPU (the RxD pin).
Yes, though the stock E-meter software ignores serial input data.
> Pin 3 of the 9 pin goes to pin 7 of the 75155, which is the RS-232
> data from the CPU, to your e-meter opto-isolator. The TTL version of
> this signal comes from pin 25 (RxD) of the CPU, and goes to pin 2 of
> the 75155. It is interesting that the hardware is set up to allow
> bidirectional communication. I have not disassembled the EPROM to
> see what commands it might accept.
>
> I don't have all my notes in front of me, but several other pins of
> the 9 pin connector do other, non-standard functions. In other
> words, might not be a good idea to connect all 9 pins directly to a
> serial port; I would just connect pins 2, 3, and 5.
Agreed. Though the two boards I just looked at left off the parts that
connected to these other pins, other E-meters may have some of them
installed.
> If for some reason, your firmware doesn't have the RS-232 option
> enabled (I have not seen this yet), I might be able to program you an
> eprom with this option. Actually, I know I can, but I'm not too
> sure how legal it might be.
>
> This is from memory, but I seem to remember one version of Lee's
> e-meter opto-isolator having a typeo in the pinouts. If you study
> the data sheet it should be obvious.
I remember that, too. I swapped the optos, which inverted the data as I
recall.
> I made up a few PCBs a while back implementing this, along with options to
> connect it directly to
> an RS-232 serial port (like Lee's schematic), or to a TTL port of a
> microprocessor (logic inverted). I think I still have one unused
> one somewhere, if you are interested.
I should have some of my Companion boards later this week, if all goes
well. This is the third revision; I hope it's finally worth shipping!
The Companion is a 2" round board that mounts on the back of the
E-meter, and includes the prescaler, DC/DC, and optoisolator for the
serial port (things that should have been in the E-meter all along).
> I have also made what I call an "E-Meter sucker". It records all the
> data from an e-meter to a secure digital memory card. My one
> prototype is pretty ugly, and bigger than it needs to be, but since
> it's doing it's job for me, I have not finished a more compact
> version. The reason why I'm mentioning this is two-fold; one is to
> brag a little :-), the other is, if there is much interest, maybe it
> might encourage me to finish up designing the smaller version.
Cruising Equipment made a really nice version of this. It had 2 megs of
RAM to hold data, a GPS receiver input to add position to the stored
data, a real-time clock to time-stamp the data, and a wireless output so
you could download the data without a cable. Now *that's* the gadget I'd
like to have! But they wanted $1000 for it, so it didn't sell.
How about a little board with an RS-232 port to receive the E-meter
data, another port for a $100 GPS receiver, and a USB port to either
send it to your laptop, or plug in a USB-to-WiFi modem to send it
wirelessly? There's probably something already on the market to do this;
we'd just need the software.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 11:07:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Picture of an E-Meter (Link-10) with a serial
port?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Thanks Lee. Whenever I state something absolutely (no
resistors, only caps), I usually end up wrong :-) The
funny thing is, I sort-of remembered having to add a
resistor, but at 2 in the morning, I couldn't find all
my notes, and by looking at two e-meters, I only
noticed the two caps. You can see the 100 Ohm
resistor in the pictures that Rod Hower took.
As for the 470 pF, that's the value I measured after
removing two of them (actually, I think one was closer
to 485 pF, and one was closer to 460 pF, but 470 pF is
the closest common value).
- Steven Ciciora
> On the ones I have, the one without the serial port
> left out:
>
> - 9-pin male D-connector
> - SN75155 8-pin surface mount chip, mounted on
> bottom of board,
> straight toward the front from pin 1 of the D
> connector, pin 1
> end toward the front of the meter.
> - C29: 0.1uf ceramic capacitor, surface mount, on
> the pads near
> pins 3-4 of the SN75155.
> - C8: 470pf ceramic capacitor, surface mount, on
> bottom of board
> near pins 7-8 of the 20-pin SN74HC573 chip.
> - 100 ohm resistor, on top side of board at the
> extreme right rear
> corner between two capacitors.
>
> There might be more; but these are what I remember
> having to add. I
> don't know the capacitor values; they aren't marked
> and I'd have to take
> them off the board to measure them.
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:24:06 -0600
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Kokam / lithium "shelf life"
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
All lithiums currently have a limited calendar life. Well, technically
a nicad is affected by aging too but it could take decades to become
significant. Lead acid ages significantly too but some lead-acids have
a 10-yr service life in float.
Some lithium batts have substantially longer calendar lives than others.
Unlike lead-acids which degrade the least when stored fully charged
(they sulfate up), lithium ion and lithium polymer degrade substantially
less when stored at partial state of charge. Also lower temps vastly
increases calendar life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion has a chart showing how temps
and charge state affect calendar life. At best, storing at 40% [EMAIL
PROTECTED]
is only 2% per year so it would take 15 years to get below 70% of
original capacity. On the other hand storing at 100% SOC @ 140F this
same degradation will occur in just over 2 months! 140F is realistic to
see in some parts of a vehicle for several hours each day it is left in
an open parking lot in the Texas summer.
One can expect this damage to be cumulative, figure the % cap loss per
hour spent at that SOC at that temp and sum the time vs rate to get
total permanent capacity loss.
Danny
----- Original Message -----
From: "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, November 7, 2007 11:14 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Kokam / lithium "shelf life"
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
> I believe this information comes from Philippe Borges, who wrote in
>
> March 2006:
>
> "i think no company will answer you (trustfully) on calendar life
> of
> their
> lithium batteries, because it's their major drawback.
> It's a fact than once assembled, it start to "self-destruct", worst
>
> if not
> used...
>
> This said one people aswered me, it was Kokam CEO himself during
> EVS21 :^)
> I asked about calendar life of their li-ion cells
> He told me something like: our cells are near new but we think you can
> expect arround 4-5 years calendar life before real capacity loss.
> I asked if capacity loss was significative
> he told me: under usual target 80% capacity left.
> I asked if half capacity loss was possible
> He told me: yes it's possible."
>
> Terveisin,
> Osmo
>
> Lawrie, Robin kirjoitti 7.11.2007 kello 18.01:
>
> > Ive heard persistent rumours that the Kokam Cells have a restricted
> > shelf life regardless of usage... is this the case? I cant even
> > remember
> > where I heard it... is this an issue with li-po cells in general?
> >
> > Cliff? You seem to be the man to ask..
> >
> > Ive been quoted a nice (its all relative) price on some 40 ah
> > cells, but
> > don't want to blow my load on some 2000+ cycle cells that only
> last 5
> > years regardless...
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 12:27:39 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: "Dave (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVS-23
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
All,
Although I have the tattoo, I won't be able to show it off at this EVent!
Suck Amps,
BB
>Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 14:34:28 -0700
>From: Doug Weathers
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVS-23
>
>A shoulder tattoo of a skull biting a piston in half with the words
>"Suck Amps" underneath? :)
>
>Jukka J?rvinen wrote:
>> We need to have a EVDL meeting there :) How to recognize EVeryone ?
>> Nedra cap ? A funny nose and googles ?
>>
>> -Jukka
------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 11:51:40 -0800
From: "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Perspective...
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
It's a common practice on radio controlled cars and planes to put some
capacitors between commutator terminals and the case of the motor to
reduce EMI interference. Would this work on a EV too, or would it be
impractical?
On Nov 7, 2007 8:40 AM, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >>> Ground the controller case and motor.
>
> Bill Dennis asked:
> >> To chassis ground, or to traction negative? If to chassis ground,
> >> do you ever run the risk this way of having the chassis with a path
> >> to the traction pack (e.g., via motor dust)?
>
> Chassis ground. This is the best RF ground that you have.
>
> George Swartz wrote:
> > Depending on how you need to arrange your dielectric, and especially
> > how your charger is hooked up and whether it is line isolated, etc,
> > you can use small capacitors to achieve RF ground without the danger
> > of a DC fault and power follow through.
>
> If it is convenient to leave your motor ungrounded, then it is as good,
> and in some cases better to ground the motor case through a good RF
> capacitor, like 0.01uF ceramic. This has the advantage of not creating
> DC leakage paths from carbon dust or a wet motor. However, this is
> mechanically difficult; every mounting bolt has to be isolated (such as
> with rubber mounts), and there needs to be some non-metallic coupler in
> the shaft (such as a rubber spider coupler).
>
> Though off-topic a bit, it's worth mentioning that most commercial EVs
> and hybrids have a DC ground fault sensor. They serve the same purpose
> as a GFCI for the AC charger -- to detect ground faults and prevent
> operation until they are fixed.
>
> A DC ground fault detector is harder to build, because you can't use a
> simple current sensing transformer like the AC GFCI. The usual method is
> to have a relay or electronic switch that alternately connects a large
> value resistor from ground to the + end of the pack, then the - end of
> the pack. If a DC voltage appears across this resistor, then there is a
> ground fault somewhere that is completing the circuit and allowing
> current to flow.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
--
www.electric-lemon.com
------------------------------
Message: 19
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 12:56:29 -0700
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Perspective...
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
The ground fault protectors for PV systems use a 1/2 amp DC circuit
breaker, which is ganged to a 60 or 80 or whatever amp circuit
breaker. The amp amp breaker is wired between the nuetral and the
ground, so if it detects any current flow there, it trips, and turns
off the hot leg. There is a resistor in parallel with the 1/2 amp
breaker, so if it trips, there is still a high resistance ground, just
not a solid ground.
This scheme is obviously designed to work with a grounded DC system,
so I don't think it would be applicable to the floating DC system of
most EV's.
Z
>
> Though off-topic a bit, it's worth mentioning that most commercial EVs
> and hybrids have a DC ground fault sensor. They serve the same purpose
> as a GFCI for the AC charger -- to detect ground faults and prevent
> operation until they are fixed.
>
> A DC ground fault detector is harder to build, because you can't use a
> simple current sensing transformer like the AC GFCI. The usual method is
> to have a relay or electronic switch that alternately connects a large
> value resistor from ground to the + end of the pack, then the - end of
> the pack. If a DC voltage appears across this resistor, then there is a
> ground fault somewhere that is completing the circuit and allowing
> current to flow.
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
EV@lists.sjsu.edu
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
End of EV Digest, Vol 4, Issue 17
*********************************
