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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Over-Unity (was Mitsubishi i MiEV Sport) (Loni)
2. Re: Bob's E Mini Truck (EV Manny)
3. Re: article: Mitsubishi i MiEV Sport (Kaido Kert)
4. European forklift motors (Dan Frederiksen)
5. Re: Drag and what to do with it.... was:Re: article:
Mitsubishi i MiEV Sport (Peter VanDerWal)
6. Rear view camera's Re: article: Mitsubishi i MiEV Sport
(Peter VanDerWal)
7. Re: article: Mitsubishi i MiEV Sport (Peter VanDerWal)
8. Re: article: Mitsubishi i MiEV Sport (FRED JEANETTE MERTENS)
9. Re: KillaCycle at the EVS-23 (keith vansickle)
10. Re: European forklift motors (Osmo S.)
11. Re: Loan options? (Richard Acuti)
12. Re: article: Mitsubishi i MiEV Sport (Lee Hart)
13. Electric Car article in New York Times this Sunday!
(Michael T Kadie)
14. Other Cushman on ebay (bob)
15. Re: article: Mitsubishi i MiEV Sport (FRED JEANETTE MERTENS)
16. cd drag (FRED JEANETTE MERTENS)
17. Re: European forklift motors (Dave Davidson)
18. mirrors, was Mitsubishi i MiEV (ProEV)
19. Re: cd drag (R. Matt Milliron)
20. Re: lowering cd drag (jerryd)
21. Re: article: Mitsubishi i MiEV Sport (Kaido Kert)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:54:49 -0800
From: "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Over-Unity (was Mitsubishi i MiEV Sport)
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
----- Original Message -----
From: "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 1:00 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Over-Unity (was Mitsubishi i MiEV Sport)
> Seems like we should spend our resources, mental or otherwise in other
> pursuits to glean more efficiency rather than trying to make a fan capture
> energy.
>
Hear hear!
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 00:35:46 -0800
From: "EV Manny" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Bob's E Mini Truck
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Hi Rich (I'm including the EVDL in case this helps others),
Bob is a professional EV converter, whose contact info is on the
Sponsors Page at www.ElectricDragin.com (shamelessly trying to get
people on that site).
I was just asked by Bryan to hold on completing my EV so that he can
test my controller. It turns out a part inside was revised by a
manufacturer, that necessitates his changing some settings.
It is very disappointing as I was hoping to have it ready for a
Radio/Car Show this weekend.
Bright side: He let me know before I blew anything up.
I knew going in I'd be a Guinea pig as maybe only 2 other people had
his components. As I already own the Belktronix system, I'm pretty
much locked in.
Bryan Belk is new to the game, but second to none at being ethical
(not leaving me in the dark re. issues with his products) as well as
nice enough to answer all the questions I had when I was just
starting.
Bob on the other hand likes the KISS conversions, which to him
Belktronix is not (especially after watching me wire all the BatMons
and Resistors to the batteries and looking at all my other
components).
Manny
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Rich Long
Date: Nov 21, 2007 7:03 AM
Subject: Bob's E Mini Truck
To: Manny
Manny,
I was perusing your blog and I noticed a picture labeled "Bob's E Mini
Truck". I am currently considering buying a Suzuki Carry Mini Truck
with the intention of converting it to electric. Can you tell me
anything about Bob's truck or put me in touch with him?
Also, I don't know if you remember me, but I am converting a Karmann
Ghia using Belktronix components. I'm wondering if you are still going
with Belktronix. It has been slow going for me getting all the bugs
worked out, but we're getting closer.
Rich
--
Manny
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1117
http://EVorBust.blogspot.com
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:48:24 +0200
From: "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] article: Mitsubishi i MiEV Sport
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
One thing:
I am quite surprised by the list response to this news abut MiEV.
So here is a completely realistic EV that a major automaker seriously
plans to put on sale in 2009, for a pricetag below $30K. Reasonable
spec claims ( 100 mile range ), no fantasy batteries or anything, the
car is based on the popular gas version that is selling now. The EV
version being a result of years long development program, with various
iterations and close to final versions being in fleet testing now.
Another good summary article here:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/161107_Motoring/16Nov2007_motor004.php
The response: a long discussion about whether a _different_ show car
reported that was reported on, with language barrier difficulties was
trying to be a perpetual motion machine or not. Huh ?
I would have expected maybe the regular "I'll believe when i see it"
and "its always two years away" line of arguments but ..
-kert
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:03:56 +0100
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] European forklift motors
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
I'm trying to locate a used DC series motor for controller tests and
possibly car use. anyone have an idea what are typical ADC like brands
in europe?
I know the ADC is often used in the EV community in USA but it seems
stupid to have motors shipped from USA when I might pick up an
equivalent locally.
anyone?
thanks
Dan
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 07:51:44 -0700 (MST)
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Drag and what to do with it.... was:Re: article:
Mitsubishi i MiEV Sport
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Come on people, the maximum theoretical efficiency for a turbine (prop,
fan, whatever you want to call it) is 59%
A real life turbine that exceeds 40% is considered extreemy efficient.
That means that no matter what you do the fan is going to produce 2.5
times as much drag losses as the energy it produces and that doesn't even
include the generator's efficiency.
It's a loose, loose, loose idea.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jukka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 11:05 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] Drag and what to do with it.... was:Re: article:
> Mitsubishi
> i MiEV Sport
>
>
>> Actually I have noticed with Elcat that I really wish to keep all
>> windows and latches closed on highway driving. I can see the difference
>> on Watt-meter instantly. It can make you pretty paranoid and nervous
>> when staring that number go up and down.
>
>>
>> In EV even small losses can be measured and that has been nice tool to
>> develop the vehicle in overall. Change better bearing or cut the roof..
>> It's even noticeable when a strong wind is blowing from behind.
>
> Of course. I wouldn't suggest that the addition of a fan couldn't make a
> major difference to overall Cd. I do, however, suggest that it would make
> up
> a small percentage of overall frontal area. Designing around its inclusion
> might yield a smaller penalty to overall Cd when in generator mode than
> linear logic suggests.
>
> Lon
>
>> Loni kirjoitti:
>>> To summarize, we all agree that the fan/generator is gimmicky, but
>>> there's a
>>> great deal of disagreement as to whether or not it's useful or lossy.
>>> My
>>> inclination is to believe that because it's already there working (I
>>> assume
>>> to cool a radiator) and may even be spinning under 12V supply just
>>> prior
>>> to
>>> performing as a generator, it may be marginally useful.
>>>
>>> Many manufacturers apply aerospace principles to underhood airflow,
>>> directing air past the hottest parts of the engine, ducting some to the
>>> brakes and venting via top or side gills, out the bottom of the engine
>>> bay,
>>> or even down a channel to a diffuser at the rear. Now imagine a
>>> boundary
>>> layer of compressed and turbulent air at the vehicle's frontal area. At
>>> steady state vehicle velocity without active aero and steady wind
>>> speed,
>>> the
>>> boundary layer of high pressure at the vehicle's nose disperses into
>>> various
>>> ducts or around the outside of the body at consistently measurable
>>> pressures
>>> and velocities. Change any variable (vehicle speed, active aero
>>> flaps/spoilers, wind speed/direction) and the dynamic changes all
>>> across
>>> the
>>> frontal area. This is the normal state of affairs for any vehicle. IIRC
>>> Cd
>>> (drag coefficient) is not an average measurement, but one taken with
>>> steady
>>> wind velocity from directly in front of the vehicle. Still, we don't
>>> hear
>>> about vehicle aerodynamics shifting radically simply because wind
>>> direction
>>> shifts a few degrees, nor does a modern vehicle become unstable at
>>> anything
>>> less than 180 km/h.
>>>
>>> In other words, airflow ingress and egress remain *reasonably*
>>> consistent
>>> in
>>> spite of constant flux at the vehicle's front boundary layer, though we
>>> can
>>> safely assume that energy consumption to move the vehicle's mass
>>> through
>>> space is varying constantly even when vehicle speed is constant .
>>> Nevertheless, the variances aren't always discernable by the seat of
>>> our
>>> pants or at the pump (we don't say, "Gee, I paid an extra 10 cents for
>>> this
>>> tankful; the wind must have shifted east a few degrees."). I believe
>>> this
>>> is
>>> because the effect on boundary layer density and turbulence have less
>>> of
>>> a
>>> linear effect on overall Cd than we might imagine.
>>>
>>> When examining the efficiency/inefficiency of addition of a fan, too
>>> many
>>> factors come into play to describe fully here, not least of which are
>>> fan
>>> size vs.dimensions of alternative air ingress, Reynolds number,
>>> Helmholtz
>>> resonance, and vehicle design as it relates to dispersal of increased
>>> pressure (and therefore thickness/turbulence of the boundary layer) at
>>> localized areas of the frontal area. In other words, the fan will spin,
>>> it
>>> will generate electricity, but it may have negligible effect upon
>>> energy
>>> used to maintain velocity *if airflow management prevents a significant
>>> enough increase in cumulative Cd to negate energy gained by the
>>> generator*.
>>>
>>> As far as I'm concerned, all argument here is moot. Wind tunnel testing
>>> with
>>> a dynamometer is the only way to be sure.
>>>
>>> Lon Hull,
>>> Portland, OR
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> For subscription options, see
>>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 07:54:00 -0700 (MST)
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Rear view camera's Re: article: Mitsubishi i MiEV
Sport
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
I can't remember where I read it, but at least one state (Arizona?)
specifically states that you can NOT replace rear view mirrors with
camera's. You can suppliment the mirror, but having the mirror is a
requirement.
> The Aptera has three cameras with a 180 degree view. You can see the
> camera in the center just below the logo in the picture on this page:
> http://www.aptera.com/about.php. If you go to the vehicle details page
> and look through the slide show of views you will see a picture of the
> cockpit with the three rearview screens.
>
>
> --
> David D. Nelson
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1328
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 07:56:08 -0700 (MST)
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] article: Mitsubishi i MiEV Sport
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
That's probably because the "I'll believe it when I see it" and "It's
always two years away" lines have been used so often (and are generally
correct), that they now go without saying.
> One thing:
> I am quite surprised by the list response to this news abut MiEV.
>
> So here is a completely realistic EV that a major automaker seriously
> plans to put on sale in 2009, for a pricetag below $30K. Reasonable
> spec claims ( 100 mile range ), no fantasy batteries or anything, the
> car is based on the popular gas version that is selling now. The EV
> version being a result of years long development program, with various
> iterations and close to final versions being in fleet testing now.
> Another good summary article here:
> http://www.bangkokpost.com/161107_Motoring/16Nov2007_motor004.php
>
> The response: a long discussion about whether a _different_ show car
> reported that was reported on, with language barrier difficulties was
> trying to be a perpetual motion machine or not. Huh ?
>
> I would have expected maybe the regular "I'll believe when i see it"
> and "its always two years away" line of arguments but ..
>
> -kert
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 08:36:35 -0600
From: "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] article: Mitsubishi i MiEV Sport
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
go to ev parts .com they have a 5 panel rear view mirror that fits inside the
car and give "they same view as outside mirrors " I remembered fron the 80's
the tv ad and was on a search for them whem I gave up was looking for something
else and there it was .
----- Original Message -----
From: Marty Hewes<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] article: Mitsubishi i MiEV Sport
I wonder if eliminating the mirrors is legal? I'll bet the law specifies
mirrors, and some cops would settle for nothing else.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<ev@lists.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@lists.sjsu.edu>>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] article: Mitsubishi i MiEV Sport
> Kaido Kert wrote:
>> Yeah, only mounting rearfacing cameras at the back of the card and two
>> few-inch LCDs inside the cabin will produce less drag and provide
>> better visibility and ergonomics, and likely be cheaper too.
>
> Less drag, but they require considerable power to operate. They are also
> complex and expensive, and (so far at least) the ones I've seen don't
> work very well.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
>
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev<http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev>
>
>
_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev<http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev>
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 07:49:50 -0800 (PST)
From: keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] KillaCycle at the EVS-23
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
I'll be there. hope to see you.
--- Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The KillaCycle will be on display at the EVS-23 in
> the A123 Systems
> booth. (#621 Right next to the Toyota booth)
>
> It is just $10 to visit on Dec 2nd, the "public day"
>
http://www.electricdrive.org/evs23/index.php?tg=articles&topics=217#art1281
>
> Bill Dube'
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better pen pal.
Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.
http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 17:42:29 +0200
From: "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] European forklift motors
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
Dan,
just a quick search from my bookmarks - no personal experience.
http://piktronik.tovarnaidej.com/index.php?lang=eng
http://lucchirimini.com/eng_index.htm
http://www.bestmotor.it/frameset_ei.html
http://www.avt.uk.com/
http://www.cfritaly.com/e/default.html
It might be cheaper to buy from US though because of the currency rates.
Osmo
Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti 22.11.2007 kello 13.03:
> I'm trying to locate a used DC series motor for controller tests and
> possibly car use. anyone have an idea what are typical ADC like brands
> in europe?
> I know the ADC is often used in the EV community in USA but it seems
> stupid to have motors shipped from USA when I might pick up an
> equivalent locally.
>
> anyone?
>
> thanks
> Dan
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:41:31 -0500
From: Richard Acuti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Loan options?
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Tracey,
I regret to say that I'm not aware of a specific lending instrument written
specifically for the conversion or scratch-build of electric vehicles. I think
your best bet may be to get a signature loan and buy a kit or the parts you
need. The interest rate won't be the best though. I think lending institutions
should get onboard with the whole alternative fuel financing movement though.
I purchased my car in a mostly complete state so I simply got a very small,
used car loan and paid it off shortly thereafter. You might consider trying
that instead of getting a loan for conversion parts unless you're already stuck
with a donor. The interest rate will be better. Some decent used EV's can be
found here: http://www.austinev.org/evtradinpost/
Perhaps you could get a loan for a little more than the actual purchase price
of the car and put the excess into any repairs to the drive system that the car
needs (if any).
As usual, if someone knows something I don't hopefully they'll speak up.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Rich A.
Message: 12Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:36:33 -0800From: "Tracey Larvenz" <[EMAIL
PROTECTED]>Subject: [EVDL] Loan options?To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:<[EMAIL
PROTECTED]>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Is anyone aware of a
loan that is available to someone looking toconvert a car to an ev? I'm in CA.
Thanks very much in advance! -- Tracey Larvenzwww.melodiousthunk.net
_________________________________________________________________
Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.Download today it's FREE!
http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_sharelife_112007
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:09:14 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] article: Mitsubishi i MiEV Sport
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> That's probably because the "I'll believe it when I see it" and "It's
> always two years away" lines have been used so often (and are generally
> correct), that they now go without saying.
I agree. I saw the postings and accepted them as the usual press
release; carefully concocted for advertising and stock promotion, and
with as few verifiable facts as possible. It's mostly speculative, and
filtered through non-technical journalists that didn't really understand
it very well. More marketing than fact.
The fan/generator idea, though, was something new. Though probably an
error and not workable, it is still interesting.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:06:19 -0800
From: "Michael T Kadie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Electric Car article in New York Times this Sunday!
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hurray for us!
I'm told it will be online Saturday on the paper's web site at
<outbind://10/www.nytimes.com/autos> www.nytimes.com/autos.
And I hope the pictures of my car come out well.
KD builder 2.S.S.I.C. http://ssi-racing.com
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:32:50 -0800
From: bob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Other Cushman on ebay
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
I bought the other ZEV Cushman that was on ebay at about the same time
so I'm sure I will have lots of questions for you guys. I sell & work on
eGo electric scooters but this is the 1st "big" EV that I've had. Got
the charger & complete set of maunals for it so feel like I got a good
deal for $960. Bob
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180179001517&rd=1
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:42:54 -0600
From: "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] article: Mitsubishi i MiEV Sport
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
kert you generated some really great discussions
----- Original Message -----
From: Kaido Kert<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 2:48 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] article: Mitsubishi i MiEV Sport
One thing:
I am quite surprised by the list response to this news abut MiEV.
So here is a completely realistic EV that a major automaker seriously
plans to put on sale in 2009, for a pricetag below $30K. Reasonable
spec claims ( 100 mile range ), no fantasy batteries or anything, the
car is based on the popular gas version that is selling now. The EV
version being a result of years long development program, with various
iterations and close to final versions being in fleet testing now.
Another good summary article here:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/161107_Motoring/16Nov2007_motor004.php<http://www.bangkokpost.com/161107_Motoring/16Nov2007_motor004.php>
The response: a long discussion about whether a _different_ show car
reported that was reported on, with language barrier difficulties was
trying to be a perpetual motion machine or not. Huh ?
I would have expected maybe the regular "I'll believe when i see it"
and "its always two years away" line of arguments but ..
-kert
_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev<http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev>
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:21:35 -0600
From: "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] cd drag
To: "ev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
please guy no smart remarks but PLEASE some serious discussion on ways to
reduce cd drag . this is one thing we can do that will extend our range and
improve our performance .
can some of you guys like lee victor Roland Roderick bill Dube Morgan DAVID
give this some serious discussion I really think this though not really
technical like most of the rest is part of the general discussion and needs
airing out
I put forth the idea that if you have a conversion with a grill that you
can duct that air under the ev and out the rear in a manner that will reduce
drag effectively reducing the frontal area . yes you would have to have
sweeping curves like used in ices headers then change to a narrow wide duct
under the ev to the rear then sweep back up to "exhaust " out the center rear
of the ev
second I put forth the concept that to extend range we NEED to copy victor in
sheathing the under side to make it smooth to air flow .
third I put forth the idea that we more the side rear views INSIDE the car
an example but not the only idea is like the rear view mirror sold by ev
parts listed as part no ac1940 mirror , 5 panel rear view . there is no
law that says we HAVE to have side rear view mirrors they are just standard
equipment (that I like ) the laws do saw we HAVE to have a rear view mirror .
this is the one inside the car . the best way I can think of to combine them
is the 5 panel mirror ev parts sell
forth I put forth the idea that we should use wheel well covers like the
Honda insight or maybe even like the redesigned geo metro at
http//www.1989geometro.com who uses both front and rear wheel well covers
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 13:23:06 -0500
From: Dave Davidson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] European forklift motors
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
ADC motors are popular in the US because they're available. Older GE and
Prestolite motors are also popular. There's not a whole lot of difference
between various brands of heavy duty series motors. As was mentioned in
another thread looking for cheaper EV parts, check out forklifts and other
heavy electric equipment that are used in your area and where the salvage units
go. If you know someone that works on forklifts, they can tell you what brand
motors are popular in your area and can help you pick up a good used motor.
Even a well worn motor can be made like new (or better) by a good motor shop by
replacing brushes and bearings. Motors can also be rewound for different
voltages, although you're beginning to talk more money. DC series motors
haven't really changed in the last hundred years, so if you're inclined to
experiment (not all of us are), you could likely pick some up for very little
and go through them yourself, learning as you go.
> Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:03:56 +0100> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To:
> ev@lists.sjsu.edu> Subject: [EVDL] European forklift motors> > I'm trying to
> locate a used DC series motor for controller tests and > possibly car use.
> anyone have an idea what are typical ADC like brands > in europe?> I know the
> ADC is often used in the EV community in USA but it seems > stupid to have
> motors shipped from USA when I might pick up an > equivalent locally.> >
> anyone?> > thanks> Dan> > _______________________________________________>
> For subscription options, see> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 13:38:12 -0500
From: "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] mirrors, was Mitsubishi i MiEV
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Hi Everybody,
I, for one, have been enjoying the aero ideas being discussed as part of the
Mitsubishi fan thread. Some of the ideas brought up are things that we have
been working on with the Electric Imp.
For instance, as much as I like Lee's reflective fan blade spinning mirror
(perfect accessory for the car equipped with the 'spinner' hubs), we just
went with taking off the external mirrors and replacing them with a internal
'Wink' mirror. This is a holder containing five mirrors that mounts inside
the car. You can see the unit in this picture:
http://www.proev.com/Graphics/RHist/MO0612/P1040749.jpg
While the 'Wink' mirror gives a good broad view of what is behind, we found
that by adding a convex mirror on each side just inside the windows, we
could cover the pillar blind spots too. If you look in the picture, in a
direct line between the top of my head and the end of the 'Wink' mirror, you
can see where we placed one of the convex mirror.
Not only did we get rid of the air drag of the external mirrors but I find
the mirror positioning makes it easier for me to track the cars behind me.
In the Electric Imp, the mirror is mounted just above my line of sight. I
really just need to change my focus from straight ahead to slightly above to
see what is behind me. Even while looking ahead I am peripherally aware of
cars coming up or dropping back.
When we checked Florida traffic rules (and this was a few years back and we
are not lawyers, so do not replace your mirror without checking the laws for
yourself), we were pleasantly surprised to discover the rear view mirror
rules were performance based. As in, you must be able to see 100? feet
behind you when seated in the driver seat rather than there must have this
mirror mounted here or here. Our 'Wink mirror plus' set up seems to satisfy
those rules.
On the street we have found some challenges to using this set up. When I am
at the front of the line at a traffic light, the 'Wink' mirror can make it
difficult to see the light. It is equivalent to having the sun shade down.
The solution is to crane my neck a little to see under the mirror to watch
for the light to turn green. It only seems a problem when you are stopped
almost under the traffic light, not approaching the light.
The other problem comes from switching from something I am use to, to
something new. I am accustom to driving with normal external mirrors.
For example: I am barreling down the road when a person ahead makes the late
decision to cut across three lanes from the fast lane to an exit. This is
very Miami driving. My reaction: look in my external mirror, nothing there,
change lanes to avoid him.
It is a quick almost instinctive action based on not seeing anything looming
in the external mirror. Driving the Imp on the road, I have caught myself
starting to move over because I do not see anything in the external mirror.
My brain suddenly realizes there is something wrong with my sight picture.
There is no mirror there!
I think that people can design a 'Wink' type system that will give equal or
better visibility with no drag but it takes a real mental effort and
training to use the system when everyone is used to external mirrors.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
------------------------------
Message: 19
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 13:27:42 -0600
From: "R. Matt Milliron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] cd drag
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:21:35 -0600, you wrote:
>please guy no smart remarks but PLEASE some serious discussion on ways to
>reduce cd drag . this is one thing we can do that will extend our range and
>improve our performance .
>
>can some of you guys like lee victor Roland Roderick bill Dube Morgan DAVID
>give this some serious discussion I really think this though not really
>technical like most of the rest is part of the general discussion and needs
>airing out
>
I have done several aero mod's on my car, all homemade. Front air
dam, sealed off the engine compartment, side skirts and vortex
generators on the roof, I drive with the windows closed when possible.
Ideas I have yet to implement are:
1. covers for the rear wheel wells.
2. smooth hubcaps.
3. seal in the underside of the car.
Non aerodynamic mod's for lower rolling resistance are:
1. inflate tires to 44 psi.
2. make sure brakes don't rub.
3. synthetic oil in the transmission.
R. M. Milliron
1981 Jet Electrica (Ford Escort)
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
This machine had been garaged for 17 years. I have
upgraded and made it operable. Tabitha, my daughter,
named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black, electric
and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
------------------------------
Message: 20
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:41:52 -0500
From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] lowering cd drag
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Fred and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] cd drag
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:21:35 -0600
>
> I put forth the idea that if you have a conversion
>with a grill that you can duct that air under the ev and
>out the rear in a manner that will reduce drag effectively
>reducing the frontal area . yes you would have to have
>sweeping curves like used in ices headers then change to
>a narrow wide duct under the ev to the rear then sweep
>back up to "exhaust " out the center rear of the ev
You can put forth all you want but it won't work
because you will have to make the vehicle larger to have the
tunnel. Next strike is the walls have so much area increases
friction, losing, using energy.
Much better is having an aero body in the first place
by far that brings the air together like a Kammback rear.
KIS
>
> second I put forth the concept that to extend range we
>NEED to copy victor in sheathing the under side to make it
>smooth to air flow .
Yes a smooth underbody can cut drag 5% or so. You
can do the same with a front air dam for 2-5%, and side dams
for another 1-3%. But the rear body shape, wheelwells and
midbody are many x's more important each!!
Beware those F1, ect, underbody aero tunnels, ect
add to the drag but they are for more down force, not lower
drag.
>
> third I put forth the idea that we more the side rear
>views INSIDE the car an example but not the only idea
>is like the rear view mirror sold by ev parts listed as
>part no ac1940 mirror , 5 panel rear view .
I like them but cops will pull you over even if they
are legal and can, will give you a ticket you'll have to
fight. It got to the point in the Ewoody I had to carry the
laws with me. But legally this will vary state to state.
I'm making ultra small aero mirrors using the small
magnifying mirrors most use to put on a larger flat mirror.
The front is made like a backward C Kammback style for
lowest drag, about 1/4 the drag many mirrors have is my
solution. If you put it out away from the body on an aero
stalk you will have less drag called interference drag of
one body next to another and intersections drag. The mirror
also leaves a trail of unattached flow down the body adding
some drag.
there is no
>law that says we HAVE to have side rear view mirrors they
>are just standard equipment (that I like ) the laws do saw
>we HAVE to have a rear view mirror . this is the one inside
>the car . the best way I can think of to combine them is
>the 5 panel mirror ev parts sell
>
> forth I put forth the idea that we should use wheel well
>covers like the Honda insight or maybe even like the
>redesigned geo metro at http//www.1989geometro.com who
>uses both front and rear wheel well covers
Those are very good.
Look at the Insight front WW and the curves on
it's, the EV-1's' rear edge, if you want the lowest drag
there. Both the covers, front edge treatment are worth 5%
each lower aero drag.
The easy, best way to cut front WW drag is
blocking the radiator, ect openings, ect in front as most of
that air comes out sideways of the front WW's screwing up
the aero after that and increasing apparent frontal area.
This is why blocking it works so well.
Jerry Dycus
>_______________________________________________ For
>subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
------------------------------
Message: 21
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 21:47:22 +0200
From: "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] article: Mitsubishi i MiEV Sport
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On Nov 22, 2007 7:09 PM, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > That's probably because the "I'll believe it when I see it" and "It's
> > always two years away" lines have been used so often (and are generally
> > correct), that they now go without saying.
>
> I agree. I saw the postings and accepted them as the usual press
> release; carefully concocted for advertising and stock promotion, and
> with as few verifiable facts as possible. It's mostly speculative, and
> filtered through non-technical journalists that didn't really understand
> it very well. More marketing than fact.
Uh, there were several links to indepenent test drives, videos of the
thing in action and couple really technical articles, with information
and pictures of the internals of the thing, including details on
battery, motors and inverters used.
Two more examples:
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20071026/141413/
http://www.bangkokpost.com/161107_Motoring/16Nov2007_motor004.php
I really dont undrestand how one would call this regular advertising material.
Compare this to something like hype of GM Volt for example, which is
not even a running prototype yet.
-kert
------------------------------
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End of EV Digest, Vol 4, Issue 62
*********************************
