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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Ni-Cad Batteries (Josh Creel)
2. San Diego International Auto Show Showcasing SSI-Racing.com 2
new electric cars (Michael T Kadie)
3. Re: BATTERIES (Zeke Yewdall)
4. Re: Poor Zagato performance(8v battery performance) (Zeke Yewdall)
5. Re: BATTERY CAPACITY (damon henry)
6. Re: What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really? (shred)
7. Re: BATTERY CAPACITY (Zeke Yewdall)
8. Re: How to measure A123 resistance (Osmo S.)
9. Re: How to measure A123 resistance (Seppo Lindborg)
10. Re: Low cost controller (ampaynz1)
11. Re: How to measure A123 resistance (Peter VanDerWal)
12. Re: How to measure A123 resistance (Peter VanDerWal)
13. Re: How to measure A123 resistance (Bill Dube)
14. Re: How to measure A123 resistance (Peter VanDerWal)
15. Aptera Crash Worthiness ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
16. Re: How to measure A123 resistance (Bill Dube)
17. Re: Aptera: Another car for Jay Lennos collection .. (Loni)
18. Re: Aptera: Another car for Jay Lennos collection .. (Mark Dutko)
19. Re: Poor Zagato performance(8v battery performance) (Joe Fields)
20. Re: Aptera: Another car for Jay Lennos collection ..
(Dan Frederiksen)
21. Re: How to measure A123 resistance (Osmo S.)
22. Re: Aptera: Another car for Jay Lennos collection ..
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 08:50:22 -0500
From: "Josh Creel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ni-Cad Batteries
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
these are about 3.5" x 1" x 8"
----- Original Message -----
From: "tomgocze" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 7:49 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ni-Cad Batteries
>I have Nicads in my S10 truck. The individual cells are 4"x5"x14"
> tall. They are rated at 100ah each.
> 20-40ah for what you described sounds reasonable.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 07:06:05 -0800
From: "Michael T Kadie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] San Diego International Auto Show Showcasing
SSI-Racing.com 2 new electric cars
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
San Diego International Auto Show Showcasing SSI-Racing.com 2 new electric
cars a carbon fiber Shelby America 427 and a Mustang Ronaele both with 300
kw electric drive trains.
San Diego Electric Vehicle Association is also there with three electric
vehicles and a pluggin hybrid.
Show runs through Sunday at San Diego convention center.
KD
http://ssi-racing.com
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 08:07:36 -0700
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] BATTERIES
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Trojan T-105 golf cart battery is 220AH at 20hour rate, so it's not
much more than that.
Z
On Dec 27, 2007 8:25 PM, Josh and Jenifer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I'll have to check with him again, but that's the figures he had on his
> computer, but i think they were 63lbs.
>
>
>
> Bob Bath wrote:
> >
> > That must have one heck of a lot of lead! That's 1/3
> > more capacity than I have in each 67 lbs. of battery,
> > for the same price.
> > wow.
> >
> > --- Josh and Jenifer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> yes, i forgot, they are made by US Battery, 20
> >> amp/hr rating was 243 i
> >> think. $79.95 each + 15.00 core charge, does that
> >> sound like a good price?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Bob Bath wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Ummm, Interstate doesn't make GC batts. Usually
> >> they
> >> > sell (for example) US Battery's deep cycle
> >> batteries.
> >> > Wonder who the manufacturer is on the one you
> >> > discuss...
> >> > Check and see if it packs 165Ah or better-- that's
> >> > what you need to move an EV.
> >> > (;-p
> >> >
> >> > --- Josh and Jenifer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Has anyone tried out Interstates new golf cart
> >> >> battery, suppose to be
> >> >> comparible or better that the trojan T-125?
> >> >> --
> >> >> View this message in context:
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> > http://www.nabble.com/BATTERIES-tp14517116s25542p14517116.html
> >> >> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> >> >> mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> For subscription options, see
> >> >> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Thinking about converting a gen. 5 ('92-95) Honda
> >> Civic? My $23
> >> > "CivicWithACord" DVD (57 mins.) shows ins and outs
> >> you'll encounter,
> >> > featuring a sedan; a del Sol, and a hatchback,
> >> each running 144V/18
> >> > batteries. It focuses on
> >> component/instrumentation/battery placement and
> >> > other considerations. For more info,
> >> > http://home.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> >> > ____
> >> > __/__|__\__
> >> > =D-------/ - - \
> >> > 'O'-----'O'-'
> >> > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe
> >> came out of the steering
> >> > wheel?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> > ____________________________________________________________________________________
> >> > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
> >> > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
> >> >
> >>
> > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > For subscription options, see
> >> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> View this message in context:
> >>
> > http://www.nabble.com/BATTERIES-tp14517116s25542p14521574.html
> >> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> >> mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> For subscription options, see
> >> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >>
> >
> >
> > Thinking about converting a gen. 5 ('92-95) Honda Civic? My $23
> > "CivicWithACord" DVD (57 mins.) shows ins and outs you'll encounter,
> > featuring a sedan; a del Sol, and a hatchback, each running 144V/18
> > batteries. It focuses on component/instrumentation/battery placement and
> > other considerations. For more info,
> > http://home.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> > ____
> > __/__|__\__
> > =D-------/ - - \
> > 'O'-----'O'-'
> > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> > wheel?
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________________________________
> > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
> > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
> > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/BATTERIES-tp14517116s25542p14521823.html
>
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 08:22:38 -0700
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Poor Zagato performance(8v battery performance)
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Dec 28, 2007 1:23 AM, Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> However, the amp draw is now spread over 6 batteries instead of 8.
> This means the amp draw per battery is higher on the 8-volt batteries,
No, since the batteries are all in series, the amperage is the same
for all the batteries, whether there is 8 or 6 of them. However, the
amperage as a percentage of the capacity, will be higher for the 8
volt batteries, since the AH capacity is less. That means worse
peukert, and more sag for the 8 volt batteries.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 16:24:52 +0000
From: damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] BATTERY CAPACITY
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
They sound like BB600s. They are usually rated at 30 amp hours which is the
important number for figuring out how many to use. The 1500 amps is their
short circuit rating which tells you how much instantaneous power they can
deliver. They are a bit lighter then lead acid and do not suffer capacity loss
in cooler weather like lead acid does. In a very efficient EV with a 144 volt
string in everyday driving you might be able to squeeze 30 miles range, 20 is
more realistic.
There is a Yahoo group that started as a subset of EVDL list members dedicated
specifically to these batteries.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/BB600/
damon
> Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 15:54:32 -0800
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
> Subject: [EVDL] BATTERY CAPACITY
>
>
> How many amp/hr would a typical Ev require for a 144VDC pack? I have a
> friend of mine that has a surplus of NiCad batteries that were from a
> surplus auction from the military, he thinks that they are 1500amp. they
> come in stainless steel cases wired up for 24vdc. does anyone know anything
> about these? he said that they got two pickup truck loads of the things,
> so of course i was wondering if i can use them in my EV conversion.....
> what do you think?
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/BATTERY-CAPACITY-tp14520374s25542p14520374.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
_________________________________________________________________
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!
http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 08:26:14 -0800 (PST)
From: shred <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
as a Safety thing IF yur controller
locks on "Full Bore" mode. I never had THAT hap
Bob Rice-2 wrote:
>
>
> It happened to me a couple of months ago. I was pointing at the front of
> my garage when I turned the ignition on & the controller blew and froze
> wide open in 2nd gear. My natural instinct was to push in the clutch and
> that saved the day. I do have a convenient emergency disconnect but I had
> the think for a few seconds to grab that the clutch was a natural
> reaction. Also I have a friend whose driveway is steep and exits right
> into fast blind two way highway traffic, I find the clutch give me a
> little more control in situations like this
>
>
>
> Hi EVerybody;
>
> Clutch/clutchless? This is an old one that surfaces now an' again. Bob
> Batson's argument sounds interesting. Hoping somebody can debunk or prove
> it? I think it depends on WHAT particular tranny you're running. For
> Instance; VW? Forgetabout it! They are hard enough to shift and select
> gears
> in GOOD, stock, form. They are so sloppy and vague, what with all the
> crappy, wear points plastic bushings and Mickey Mouse afterthought
> linkages?
> Now a "top Loader" type Ford or Chevy, or EVen Nissan, with their crisp
> gear
> selections. another story. I'll bet Dave Oliveria's Ranger clicks easily
> through it's clutchless gears? Right Dave?
>
> But for alota cars it's SO nice to click through the gears without
> having
> your silent motor to wind down or up to get another gear.Most all of us
> are
> used to standard trannys from our deformative years?Also the clutch
> cushions
> the drive train by slipping a bit, during torque moments, protecting the
> drive train from outragious torque.AND as a Safety thing IF yur controller
> locks on "Full Bore" mode. I never had THAT happen, but they say it does?
> Of
> course IF you don't shut it down by opening your line switch, you will be
> shipping yur motor out to Jerry at Warfield Electric, or to Jim, at Hy
> Torque 'lectric. He'll jack it up, the name plate, and slip a new motor
> under<g>!But that's better than running over a few slower pedestrians.
> Can't
> let Darwin's law apply, here.
>
> On my last teardown on my Rabbit drive train, I had my machinist guy
> go
> at the flywheel, in a lathe, went from 14 lbs to 6, talk about weight
> loss!
> If WE could take it off like that, too?! There is fat in ICE flywheels as
> used stock, after all they are FLY wheels Duh! Supposed to smooth out
> archaic gas engines. All WE need them for is to be able to squeeze a
> clutch
> plate between, IF we could make the whole outfit out of Obtanium, from the
> crashed Roswel Flying Saucer metal at one half gram<g>?Be nice, or go to
> the racing flywhhels of aluminum.
>
> I'm 'ole fashioned, like my clutch, and slip it ice-ly while
> manuvering
> ,to spin up the Power Steering pump, for the nice assist while parking, or
> whatEVer.If you have a separate motor for all that stuff, it's another
> story.
>
> Personal choice here, aftrer all, conversions aren't perfection! Get
> OUT
> there, get it on the road! Coke/Pepsi, Train /Plane,
> Studebaker/Huppmobile,
> Chevy/Ford. Victrola/ I-Pod<g>! Yur call!
>
> Merri Christ Mess!
>
> Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chuck Homic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 12:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] What's wrong with clutchless? I mean, really?
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
--
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/What%27s-wrong-with-clutchless---I-mean%2C-really--tp14491248s25542p14527775.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 09:28:42 -0700
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] BATTERY CAPACITY
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
If they are BB600's, I am looking for a truck full of them for my
conversion... let me know if he wants to sell....
Z
On Dec 28, 2007 9:24 AM, damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> They sound like BB600s. They are usually rated at 30 amp hours which is the
> important number for figuring out how many to use. The 1500 amps is their
> short circuit rating which tells you how much instantaneous power they can
> deliver. They are a bit lighter then lead acid and do not suffer capacity
> loss in cooler weather like lead acid does. In a very efficient EV with a
> 144 volt string in everyday driving you might be able to squeeze 30 miles
> range, 20 is more realistic.
>
> There is a Yahoo group that started as a subset of EVDL list members
> dedicated specifically to these batteries.
> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/BB600/
>
> damon
>
>
> > Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 15:54:32 -0800
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
> > Subject: [EVDL] BATTERY CAPACITY
>
> >
> >
> > How many amp/hr would a typical Ev require for a 144VDC pack? I have a
> > friend of mine that has a surplus of NiCad batteries that were from a
> > surplus auction from the military, he thinks that they are 1500amp. they
> > come in stainless steel cases wired up for 24vdc. does anyone know anything
> > about these? he said that they got two pickup truck loads of the things,
> > so of course i was wondering if i can use them in my EV conversion.....
> > what do you think?
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> > http://www.nabble.com/BATTERY-CAPACITY-tp14520374s25542p14520374.html
> > Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> > Nabble.com.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!
> http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 18:33:22 +0200
From: "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How to measure A123 resistance
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed
Bill Dube kirjoitti 27.12.2007 kello 23.39:
> If you do a DC load test, you must do
> two different loads and then compute the slope of
> the line plotted on the I versus V graph.
Do you mean V versus TIME graph like here:
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-41.htm
If not, can you show an example of a I versus V graph?
>
> Be sure to measure voltage on a separate
> contact on the terminals from the contact you use to draw the current.
What?s the reason for this? Maybe temperature rise on the current
drawing contact?
Thanks,
Osmo
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 18:10:01 +0100 (CET)
From: Seppo Lindborg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How to measure A123 resistance
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-15"
Do you really need to measure two different load currents?
Shouldn't this work: Consider the battery consisting of two series-
connected elements: 1) the electromotive force E of the battery, 2) the
internal resistance R(int).
Measure the open circuit voltage. This is the E of the battery.
Connect a load resistor having a known accurate value. Measure the
battery voltage U under load. Now you can calculate I, knowing the load
resistance.
The delta voltage E-U divided with the current gives the internal
resistance.
The formula: R(int) = R(load) * (E-U)/U
Or am I missing something?
Seppo
>----Alkuper?inen viesti----
>L?hett?j?: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>P?iv?m??r?: 27.12.2007 23:39
>Vastaanottaja: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"<ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
>Aihe: Re: [EVDL] How to measure A123 resistance
>
> If you do a DC load test, you must do
>two different loads and then compute the slope of
>the line plotted on the I versus V graph.
>
>
> Bill Dube'
>
>At 01:54 PM 12/27/2007, you wrote:
>>I?m going to do some tests with A123 to see how 10 of them behave in
>>parallel. But first I thought I would measure the resistance of the
>>cells to see if it is related to the behaviour of the cells. I haven
>>?t done anything like this before, so I appreciate your help.
>>
>>So, I?ve seen people talking about battery resistance and battery
>>impedance. It?s easy to find definitions for these, but whats their
>>relevance? Which one should I measure?
>>
>>To measure resistance I should discharge the cell with two current
>>levels and measure the voltage difference -at least that?s one
>>method I found. But the voltage changes constantly, so the result
>>depends strongly on how quickly you do the measurements. I suppose
>>the SOC is an important factor also?
>>
>>So is there any standard method? Or should I just try to get
relative
>>results by using the same method (whatever it is) for every cell?
>>
>>Kiitoksin,
>>Osmo
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>For subscription options, see
>>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 09:30:51 -0800 (PST)
From: ampaynz1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Low cost controller
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
If you want a low cost controller from 1970's, then get hold of lots of
rectifier diodes of rating 300 amps 400 volts. What you need to build is a
rectactor circuit. Use only 6volt batteries. You will need 2 diodes for each
battery. Last battery in series does not need two diodes. Example, 6 - 6V
batteries will need 12diodes - 2 = 10 diodes. Also need one diode as a
flyback diode on motors + and -. You also need 1 switch for each battery.
Now to sum it up for a 72V battery pack consists of 12 batteries. So you
need 23 diodes , 12 switches, plus I'd put a fuse on every battery for
safety reasons, try ANL-300 amp fuses, about 2 bucks each on ebay, or you
can use two on each battery, still cheaper then ANN-400 at $15 each.
The steps you will get are 6V, 12V, 18V, 24V, 30V, 36V, 42V, 48V, 54V, 60V,
66V, 72V. There is no limit on the steps you can have, just need more diodes
and switches.
Now throttle wire will be connected to an long piece of flat metal and as
you press down on throttle it will the metal piece will touch switch one. As
pedal is pushed down more, it will touch switch one and two at the same
time, and then switch three too. So it doesn't matter if two switches engage
at once or one goes bad and is skipped. This is a lot better then an all
switch system where it has to be in order and there is an off period. With
this system there is no off period and a piece of metal simply slides until
it touches 12 contacts to 12 switches all at the same time touching this one
metal sliding piece.
Problems with this system - NO regen is possible the way I described. Take
off at 6V might use too many amps, any ideas on this? You might still need a
clutch even at 6V. One more problem, switches will be have to be engaged to
charge the battery pack, because resting voltage will be 6V with switches
off. You will need a separate battery pack to power contactor coils.
Positive - Done properly, you are very unlikely to get stranded if some
spare parts and tools are carried. Price to repair a blown diode or switch
is relatively cheap.
Cost is $20 per diode 400V 300 amps each, or $10 for 200V 300amps
Switch cost is $15 each for SW80B, with blowouts installed
Fuses are like $15 for 10 ANL-300
Wire cost for extra length is maybe $100 for 2/0 welding cable
Also, you will need some way to connect to diode end which is huge. Maybe
you could try battery terminals, so another say $30 for cheap lead stuff.
Add it all up all you have a very expensive controller still.
Might need a take off resistor too, but getting 300 watt 50ohm rheostat the
size of volleyballs for $10 isn't that bad. Need sources for any of this
surplus stuff, then message me.
Read, that most of these big diodes can take up to 3000 - 4000 amp burst,
but what blows them easily is overvoltage.
Of course a few more switches will needed for safety reasons and to engage
charging and for start up resistor if needed.
images from a library book - you can check it out or get from inter library
loan if needed for free.
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/4655/pg1cm4.jpg
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/8862/pg2ee4.jpg
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/6619/pg3ew1.jpg
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/8435/pg4kn3.jpg
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/2756/pg5lr1.jpg
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/6408/pg6mn4.jpg
Dan Frederiksen-2 wrote:
>
> how do you figure the forward diodes need to handle the full pack voltage?
>
> Morgan LaMoore wrote:
>> Yes, but if you replace the diodes with MOSFETs, those MOSFETs have to
>> be rated at full pack voltage and current. Then, even 2 of those super
>> diodes would be enough to make a PWM controller with higher efficiency
>> and far less silicon.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
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View this message in context:
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------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 11:34:11 -0700 (MST)
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How to measure A123 resistance
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Bill Dube kirjoitti 27.12.2007 kello 23.39:
>
>> If you do a DC load test, you must do
>> two different loads and then compute the slope of
>> the line plotted on the I versus V graph.
>
>
> Do you mean V versus TIME graph like here:
> http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-41.htm
That is a I versus V graph, the time component is just to insure the
voltage has stabilize. If you look at the top of the chart you will see
the formula for calculating resistance (Rdc) and it doesn't include time.
>
> If not, can you show an example of a I versus V graph?
>
>>
>> Be sure to measure voltage on a separate
>> contact on the terminals from the contact you use to draw the current.
>
> What?s the reason for this? Maybe temperature rise on the current
> drawing contact?
Because the contact will have resistance, ohms law tells us that this
resistance will incure a voltage drop relative to the current, this
voltage drop will effect your readings.
If you measure with the same contact then you will be measuring the
contact resistance as well as the batteries resistance and won't be able
to determine how much of the resistance comes from each point.
Because the meter draws so little current, the voltage drop across it's
contact will be negligible and won't effect your reading. So just make
sure the meter touches a different point on the terminals from the load,
i.e if the load is on clamps around the terminals, touch (firmly) the
meter leads to the top of the terminals.
>
> Thanks,
> Osmo
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
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------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 11:38:25 -0700 (MST)
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How to measure A123 resistance
To: "Seppo Lindborg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Electric Vehicle
Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Consider that the internal resistance effects the open circuit voltage too.
> Do you really need to measure two different load currents?
>
> Shouldn't this work: Consider the battery consisting of two series-
> connected elements: 1) the electromotive force E of the battery, 2) the
> internal resistance R(int).
>
> Measure the open circuit voltage. This is the E of the battery.
> Connect a load resistor having a known accurate value. Measure the
> battery voltage U under load. Now you can calculate I, knowing the load
> resistance.
>
> The delta voltage E-U divided with the current gives the internal
> resistance.
>
> The formula: R(int) = R(load) * (E-U)/U
>
> Or am I missing something?
>
> Seppo
>
>
>>----Alkuper?inen viesti----
>>L?hett?j?: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>P?iv?m??r?: 27.12.2007 23:39
>>Vastaanottaja: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"<ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
>>Aihe: Re: [EVDL] How to measure A123 resistance
>>
>
>> If you do a DC load test, you must do
>>two different loads and then compute the slope of
>>the line plotted on the I versus V graph.
>>
>
>>
>> Bill Dube'
>>
>>At 01:54 PM 12/27/2007, you wrote:
>>>I?m going to do some tests with A123 to see how 10 of them behave in
>>>parallel. But first I thought I would measure the resistance of the
>>>cells to see if it is related to the behaviour of the cells. I haven
>>>?t done anything like this before, so I appreciate your help.
>>>
>>>So, I?ve seen people talking about battery resistance and battery
>>>impedance. It?s easy to find definitions for these, but whats their
>>>relevance? Which one should I measure?
>>>
>>>To measure resistance I should discharge the cell with two current
>>>levels and measure the voltage difference -at least that?s one
>>>method I found. But the voltage changes constantly, so the result
>>>depends strongly on how quickly you do the measurements. I suppose
>>>the SOC is an important factor also?
>>>
>>>So is there any standard method? Or should I just try to get
> relative
>>>results by using the same method (whatever it is) for every cell?
>>>
>>>Kiitoksin,
>>>Osmo
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>For subscription options, see
>>>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>For subscription options, see
>>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
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legalistic signature is void.
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 10:23:28 -0700
From: Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How to measure A123 resistance
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed
I = amperes
You use a separate contact for voltage because
the current flow though the load contact will
cause a voltage drop (because to the resistance
of the tab and load wiring.) Since you are trying
to determine the cell resistance, you want to
measure the voltage across just the cell, not the cell and the tab.
At 09:33 AM 12/28/2007, you wrote:
>Bill Dube kirjoitti 27.12.2007 kello 23.39:
>
> > If you do a DC load test, you must do
> > two different loads and then compute the slope of
> > the line plotted on the I versus V graph.
>
>
>Do you mean V versus TIME graph like here:
>http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-41.htm
>
>If not, can you show an example of a I versus V graph?
>
> >
> > Be sure to measure voltage on a separate
> > contact on the terminals from the contact you use to draw the current.
>
>What?s the reason for this? Maybe temperature rise on the current
>drawing contact?
>
>Thanks,
>Osmo
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 11:56:04 -0700 (MST)
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How to measure A123 resistance
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Hmm, I didn't express that right.
There is an internal leakage current that effects the open circuit
voltage, but that isn't exactly related to the batteries internal
resistance.
Still it does have an effect.
> Consider that the internal resistance effects the open circuit voltage
> too.
>
>> Do you really need to measure two different load currents?
>>
>> Shouldn't this work: Consider the battery consisting of two series-
>> connected elements: 1) the electromotive force E of the battery, 2) the
>> internal resistance R(int).
>>
>> Measure the open circuit voltage. This is the E of the battery.
>> Connect a load resistor having a known accurate value. Measure the
>> battery voltage U under load. Now you can calculate I, knowing the load
>> resistance.
>>
>> The delta voltage E-U divided with the current gives the internal
>> resistance.
>>
>> The formula: R(int) = R(load) * (E-U)/U
>>
>> Or am I missing something?
>>
>> Seppo
>>
>>
>>>----Alkuper?inen viesti----
>>>L?hett?j?: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>P?iv?m??r?: 27.12.2007 23:39
>>>Vastaanottaja: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"<ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
>>>Aihe: Re: [EVDL] How to measure A123 resistance
>>>
>>
>>> If you do a DC load test, you must do
>>>two different loads and then compute the slope of
>>>the line plotted on the I versus V graph.
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> Bill Dube'
>>>
>>>At 01:54 PM 12/27/2007, you wrote:
>>>>I?m going to do some tests with A123 to see how 10 of them behave in
>>>>parallel. But first I thought I would measure the resistance of the
>>>>cells to see if it is related to the behaviour of the cells. I haven
>>>>?t done anything like this before, so I appreciate your help.
>>>>
>>>>So, I?ve seen people talking about battery resistance and battery
>>>>impedance. It?s easy to find definitions for these, but whats their
>>>>relevance? Which one should I measure?
>>>>
>>>>To measure resistance I should discharge the cell with two current
>>>>levels and measure the voltage difference -at least that?s one
>>>>method I found. But the voltage changes constantly, so the result
>>>>depends strongly on how quickly you do the measurements. I suppose
>>>>the SOC is an important factor also?
>>>>
>>>>So is there any standard method? Or should I just try to get
>> relative
>>>>results by using the same method (whatever it is) for every cell?
>>>>
>>>>Kiitoksin,
>>>>Osmo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>For subscription options, see
>>>>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>For subscription options, see
>>>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
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legalistic signature is void.
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 17:52:06 +0000
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [EVDL] Aptera Crash Worthiness
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I'm a newbie to posting here so hope I'm doing this right.
We have a link to the recent Popular Mechanics
in depth look at the Aptera here:
http://evtransportal.com/videos.html
I think the video pretty much explains that
the Aptera is built to sustain moderate impacts
better than most cars. Over $20 million has been
raised to develop this vehicle so far. It's an engineering
marvel. I know one peron who's ordered one that is
going to be saving $500.00 per month on gas, enough to make
the vehicle pay for itself.
(Peter Oppewall)
EVtransPortal.com
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 11:07:32 -0700
From: Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How to measure A123 resistance
To: Seppo Lindborg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Electric Vehicle Discussion
List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed
You are using two different loads, Rload and Rzero.
If you use two non-zero loads, it works better.
You avoid any surface charge sort of effects. If
you select two loads that bracket the load you
are planning to actually apply in practice, you
will measure the resistance that has the most meaning for your application.
Bill D.
At 10:10 AM 12/28/2007, you wrote:
>Do you really need to measure two different load currents?
>
>Shouldn't this work: Consider the battery consisting of two series-
>connected elements: 1) the electromotive force E of the battery, 2) the
>internal resistance R(int).
>
>Measure the open circuit voltage. This is the E of the battery.
>Connect a load resistor having a known accurate value. Measure the
>battery voltage U under load. Now you can calculate I, knowing the load
>resistance.
>
>The delta voltage E-U divided with the current gives the internal
>resistance.
>
>The formula: R(int) = R(load) * (E-U)/U
>
> Or am I missing something?
>
>Seppo
>
>
> >----Alkuper?inen viesti----
> >L?hett?j?: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >P?iv?m??r?: 27.12.2007 23:39
> >Vastaanottaja: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"<ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
> >Aihe: Re: [EVDL] How to measure A123 resistance
> >
>
> > If you do a DC load test, you must do
> >two different loads and then compute the slope of
> >the line plotted on the I versus V graph.
> >
>
> >
> > Bill Dube'
> >
> >At 01:54 PM 12/27/2007, you wrote:
> >>I?m going to do some tests with A123 to see how 10 of them behave in
> >>parallel. But first I thought I would measure the resistance of the
> >>cells to see if it is related to the behaviour of the cells. I haven
> >>?t done anything like this before, so I appreciate your help.
> >>
> >>So, I?ve seen people talking about battery resistance and battery
> >>impedance. It?s easy to find definitions for these, but whats their
> >>relevance? Which one should I measure?
> >>
> >>To measure resistance I should discharge the cell with two current
> >>levels and measure the voltage difference -at least that?s one
> >>method I found. But the voltage changes constantly, so the result
> >>depends strongly on how quickly you do the measurements. I suppose
> >>the SOC is an important factor also?
> >>
> >>So is there any standard method? Or should I just try to get
>relative
> >>results by using the same method (whatever it is) for every cell?
> >>
> >>Kiitoksin,
> >>Osmo
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>For subscription options, see
> >>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >For subscription options, see
> >http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 11:02:37 -0800
From: "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aptera: Another car for Jay Lennos collection ..
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
>I saw another report about it where they talk about how it's noisy due to
> its belt-drive and there is no sound insulation to speak of.
People will complain about anything. The driveline is likely quieter than
almost anything on the road, and I'd bet sound insulation makes it into
production soon. In the motorcycling community belt drive is heralded as a
great weight- and noise-limiting system, but here it's too noisy. Give me a
break. I don't care if it sings off-key disco tunes as long as the car does
everything else as well as projected, and I *hate* disco ;^)
Lon
------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 11:14:39 -0800
From: Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aptera: Another car for Jay Lennos collection ..
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
I ordered one some time back, I'm curious to see the finished product
but I know it sure looks better than a Sparrow/NMg at $34,500!
mark
On Dec 28, 2007, at 11:02 AM, Loni wrote:
>> I saw another report about it where they talk about how it's noisy
>> due to
>> its belt-drive and there is no sound insulation to speak of.
>
> People will complain about anything. The driveline is likely quieter
> than
> almost anything on the road, and I'd bet sound insulation makes it
> into
> production soon. In the motorcycling community belt drive is
> heralded as a
> great weight- and noise-limiting system, but here it's too noisy.
> Give me a
> break. I don't care if it sings off-key disco tunes as long as the
> car does
> everything else as well as projected, and I *hate* disco ;^)
>
> Lon
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 19
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 11:17:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Joe Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Poor Zagato performance(8v battery performance)
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi Doug,
I think you mean to say the "power draw per battery"
rather than the "amp draw per battery." Since they're
all in series, "I" should be the same for everybody, but 8*I
is definitely bigger than 6*I !
Anyway, your point is well taken, energy capacity is proportional
to total mass of lead, and what's being described here is a
symptom of too little power, not energy. On the other hand,
power should be proportional (roughly) to the total surface area
of the plates and (barring some kind of Firefly-style, nano-tech,
fractal plate design) surface area and volume seem to go pretty
much hand-in-hand.
Think about it at the cell level. Both packs have 24 cells total.
In order to "save" 150 pounds of lead Lawrence's
friend had to get batteries where each cell weighs about 6 pounds
less. The direct effect is that these cells have less total storage
capacity, but unless they have very unusual plate designs there is also
an indirect consequence -- less total surface area. That means
less power, so they sag under load.
Doug Weathers wrote:
>
> The volts and amps over the whole pack would have been the same.
> However, the amp draw is now spread over 6 batteries instead of 8.
> This means the amp draw per battery is higher on the 8-volt batteries,
> which means they'll sag more, which means their voltage will drop
> further under the same load (going up the same hill), which means less
> top speed on that hill.
>
>> but the fact that he saved 150 lbs of energy storage medium
>> would.
>
> That's exactly right - he saved (lost) energy storage. It's like
> draining several gallons of gas out of your gas tank. Your gas car
> will still go as fast as before - it just won't go as far. All else
> being equal.
>
> If all else was equal (say, he used eight lighter weight 6 volt
> batteries that sagged the same as the heavier ones), then what should
> happen is the acceleration would improve (because of the lighter
> weight) and range would go down (less energy on board). Speeds should
> be about the same.
>
> But when you swap out eight 6v batteries for six 8v batteries, it's
> kind of like when you drain the gasoline (switch from 6-volters to
> 8-volters, you're also slowing down the fuel pump (suffering more
> voltage sag). You can't deliver the fuel (energy) to the engine with
> enough pressure (voltage). So the car won't go as fast when you stomp
> the accelerator, or try to climb a hill. It poops out faster.
>
> This is probably part of why 8-volt golf cart batteries have a bad
> reputation - because people try to use them to save weight in a vehicle
> designed for 6-volt batteries, and end up with slower vehicles that
> kill their batteries much faster because of increased amp draws per
> battery.
>
> (The other part is that 8v batteries are not as stoutly made as 6v
> batteries. When you fit four 2v cells into the same volume that used
> to contain only three, the battery plates have to be thinner, so they
> don't last as long.)
>
> Listers, did I get the above correct? I'm just parroting (perhaps
> incorrectly) information I've gleaned from this list.
>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Joe
>>
>>
>> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>>>
>>> `Got a neighbor with a Zagato. He decided to put 6 8v batteries
>>> instead
>>> of
>>> the stock 8 6v batteries. He has 35mph top speed but up hills 7mph.
>>> I
>>> think it's battery sag from the 8v pack. I don't think the 150 pound
>>> savings was worth it. Anyone have experience with 8v golfcart battery
>>> performance. Lawrence Rhodes....
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> For subscription options, see
>>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://www.nabble.com/Poor-Zagato-performance%288v-battery-
>> performance%29-tp14519267s25542p14521333.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
> --
> Doug Weathers
> Las Cruces, NM, USA
> http://www.gdunge.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
--
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/Poor-Zagato-performance%288v-battery-performance%29-tp14519267s25542p14530283.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
------------------------------
Message: 20
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 20:25:40 +0100
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aptera: Another car for Jay Lennos collection ..
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Mark Dutko wrote:
> I ordered one some time back, I'm curious to see the finished product
> but I know it sure looks better than a Sparrow/NMg at $34,500!
>
>
or a tango at 108,000$
------------------------------
Message: 21
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 21:33:07 +0200
From: "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How to measure A123 resistance
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
> If you measure with the same contact then you will be measuring the
> contact resistance as well as the batteries resistance and won't be
> able
> to determine how much of the resistance comes from each point.
Ok I understand this, I just thought maybe there are other (not so
obvious) reasons for it.
I thought I would use a screw to connect both wires (with lugs on
them) on the same tab hole of the A123 cell. I just want to compare
the cells, not to get their absolute resistances. Of course the
result will then include the tab and lug resistance also. But I
suppose I can exclude the load contact resistance by putting the
meter lug against the tab and the load connector on top of it?
I think screw is better than soldering if you want consistent
results, at least with my soldering skills...
Osmo
------------------------------
Message: 22
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 11:41:13 -0800
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aptera: Another car for Jay Lennos collection ..
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
> tango at 108,000$
>
Ouch!
Kudos for the Aptera. Nice looking and much cheaper. : )
On Dec 28, 2007, at 11:25 AM, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
------------------------------
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EV@lists.sjsu.edu
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End of EV Digest, Vol 5, Issue 86
*********************************
